shahanshahesmail

Maziar, this was the other question

4) GREEN is a made up movement to jump start their expired RULLING,moussavi,karroubi,jennati  ....and others are all part of the same gang, just like crips,bloods, ms13,.... once you're in you can not get out alive. please don't BUY their TAQIYEH (religiouse lies)which is permissable.

Which 'religious lies' are you asking me not to buy into specifically? I wasn't aware I  was buying into any lies or was gullible enough to be sold many in future. ilol

___________________

and then at the end of the post, not exactly a question, but a response would be greatly appreciated.

Maziar, I promise you, the day you guys (you who are against the Reformists and/or Greens) come up with even the beginnings of a viable strategy for establishing a secular parliamentary democracy in Iran post haste I will be there with bells on to strategize with you. I will spend every single moment of my time here on nothing but that. But the plan has to be according to my terms which are: minimal bloodshed and minimal foreign intervention. Minimal bloodshed works both ways, meaning voices clamoring for death to all mullahs not allowed. Or should I say, must be convinced otherwise. 

In the meantime and for right now, I want to understand this person, that's all.

_________________

PS Thanks for the video, Email. You'll hear back from me by tomorrow.

Shab bekheir.

ROSIE......

TO KNOW THIS PERSON ALL YOU NEED IS R/T TICKET TO ENGLAND

SINCE HE CAN NOT GET A U.S VISA.........

GREEN IS COLOR OF MONEY (LOOK AT YOUR DOLLAR BILLS)

THE LASHINGS HAPPENED 6 MO. BEFORE HE WAS CRUSHED IN HUWAYZE BY IRAQI TANKS IN 1981.

WHAT OTHER QUESTION DID YOU HAVE ?

RELIGION IS A PERSONAL WAY OF LIFE AND ITS NOT INTENDED TO FORCE PEOPLES TO FOLLOW IT OR ELSE..... THAT'S WHAT I.R.R WANTS IT'S CITIZEN TO BELIEVE.

Maziar

T.S.S

the same sh******

If you esmal; believe khomeini never said those holy craps in that rassalleh its fine who am I ? to judge you  BUT HE SAID THAT AND YOU CAN BUY THE BOOK ,BURN IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ IT.

OR GET IT FOR FREE FROM THE JASSOSKHANEH ESLAMI IN LONDON AND RE -READ IT.

OTTAWA OR LONDON THEY BOTH HAVE THE IMAGE OF QUEEN ELIZABETH PRINTED ON THEIR CURRENCY.(T.S.S)     

LET'S TALK ABOUT 2010 KAHRIZAK,EVIN, WRONGLY HELD PRISIONERS ON FALSE ACCUSATIONS, MONEY SPENT ON DEFENCE (CHINESE,KOREAN FIRE CERACKERS) WHICH INSTEAD COULD BE GIVEN TO IRANIANS (havaleye nafti).      Maziar

my bad apparently it

my bad

apparently it didnt paste , here you go :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Czda3tr4I

go to part 2 and so on afterwards. 

I think

you left out the link?

i just put flogging and

i just put flogging and stoning together to group the punishments , i didnt intend to put them on par with each other , for sure stoning is far more severe and fatal . Plus the judgement of how death or punishment is not done by the sharia judge , if in the case of murder , the murdered persons family member decides how the accuseds punishment would be carried out , if they say "I want total retribution" then that usually means the worst case scenario.

as for hanging , hanging is a common form of execution if i remember correctly , even in the US its legal to perform hangings though its never done nowadays.

Ofcourse Id never want to be in the situation of being stoned to death , but then again , I dont think ill put myself in a position to be sentenced to being stoned to death. 

If you ask me if i was the supreme leader of the islamic republic of iran , I would do away with stoning to death and leave capital punishment by hanging or gunshot , but like i said , its not the sharia judge who decides , if the murdered persons closest family decide he should be forgiven then his punishment will be light , thats never the case though , they always ask for the maximum punishment. 

check this video out , its a sharia trial , a woman murdered the wife of a football player in iran , she is on trial , the judge asks the mother of the victim and the husband(he was cheating on his wife) . They both ask for the most severe judgement , she received the death sentence but it was reduced to jail time. 

Well....

Esmail already said he believes in capital punishment. Esmail, you wrote:

As for the punishment of stoning , lashes and so on. These things rarely happen in iran , prison time and a worded declaration renouncing their acts is what happens most of the time . I consider stoning and lashes to be reserved for serious crimes , but I must ask this , do you not think a extreme punishment will lead to people thinking twice before causing a crime?

First of all I'm not sure I believe that these things 'rarely' happen in Iran-I refer to the lashings, as Maziar mentioned below in the case of  his brother. And I really am hoping he'll come back and answer the couple of questions I asked him. Also hangings, Esmail. You don't mention them but IRI is WAY up there in number of executions per capita worldwide.

At the same time I know that people here who compare IRI with Nazi Germany or god knows what in terms of punishments and fatalities are grossly exaggerating.  Grotesquely may perhaps be a better word.

_________________

Do I think extreme punishment will lead people to thinking twice before committing a crime? Over and over it's been statistically shown that capital punishment is not a deterrant for murder. I believe it's because most murders are committed either as crimes of passion, in a kind of temporary insanity, so to say, or by people who are so sociopathic that they not only have no empathy for their victims--no normal human feeling--but no real empathy for themselves in a way. They see neither themselves nor others as complex and fully human, they just do as they want to at the time. Conseqences don't matter to them.

Then of course you have people who murder on drugs, and you have these criminal 'mastermind' types and nothing deters them because it's one huge game to them and they're out to win so they take the gamble. Maybe the higher the riske the better. Like Mafia bosses--I assume the threat of death exhilirates them and spurs them on.

_________________

People like me have a different view on things. I believe in prevention through the setting up of excellent social agencies, schools, etc.  through the government to make sure that people have the proper moral and psychological fondation and ability to earn a living and so on so that they won't need to or want to commit crimes Part of the reason why I identify myself as a moderate Socialist rather than a liberal (in the American sense) is because we're hard-nosed about these tings. We demand excellent organization, monitoring and results. Same would go in the prison systems. Focus on rehabiitaton, etc.

_________________

But those are just some ideas of mine I'm throwing in off the top of my head and this we could argue all day. What I really want to hone in on, Esmail, is that you mentioned flogging and stoning together and said they should only be done rarely.  But you didn't mention hanging. And the normal grouping would be on the one hand flogging, and on the other hanging and stoning.

So what I don't understand is how you can group together flogging and stoning. Stoning is a death sentence with the most extraordinary torture possible. As you may know, the stones are chosen so as not to be big enough to kill the person right away. So it's prolonged. I know it doesn't happen very frequently and I know there are campaigns against it in Iran but that's neither here nor there for the moment, Esmail.

What's here and there for me is why would you put stoning and flogging in one group together. A person can get not that many flogs, and anyway even if they get a lot they should live. Stoning is--I don't know, it must be more painful because they die. Slowly.

How can you relate them to each other and leave out hanging. How can stoning be on a level with flogging? It's far far worse than hanging.

It's one of the most terrible things that exists.

Are you really comfortable with the idea of stoning? I don't understand. ______________

Having an afterthought: or is it the other way around? Do you see flogging as very extreme, the way most people view stoning. And that's why you grouped them together. As opposed to seeing stoning as in a league with flogging as not so extreme. Have you thought very clearly about these things, Esmail? I mean, these are very serious things.

Have you ever imagined yourself in the position of someone who's being stoned?

shahanshahesmail

I do not follow any man Mullah or guru or whatever. I follow my own free will and take responsibility. If afterward someone asks me about why I did something I will explain my reasons. It will not be : because some Rahbar told me. 

Note that I have not made any of the Camel or that kind of talk. I will not get into that kind of name calling. I don't even care if Khomeini was from Indian parent or not. A good person is good no matter who their parents. Khomeini was an evil man because of his actions not his parents. He opposed peace and routinely ordered executions. He lied to people about freedom and then made fun of them. He may think that tagieh is right but to me it is lying and wrong.

Forget the Camel thing! How about his real documented actions? His hostage taking. Is it right to take people hostage? Is it right to lie to others? Is it right to order execution of political opponents. What kind of a man does that.

Tell me if you believe in God do you think God approves of these? Or is it the devil who tells people to act like this!  I rather be dead than to act like Khomeini did. Without honor or truth or respect.

آقای شاه عن شاه اسماعیل دامت برکات

با معذرت فراوان گفته‌های آقای مرحوم را که زیر ذکر کردم از تحریر الوسیله نیست.  این گفتار شماره ۲۳۹۴ و ۲۳۹۵ از نوشتهٔ "رساله" ایشان است.

rose , more examples

is in the post below.

you can clearly see how it is no one but these individuals and their masters are the only ones with knowledge on khomeini , while his closest supporters , families , co-workers , everyone who love him , know nothing about . makes you wonder where they get this info .

Its the same information that said khomeini is from india (even though his mother tongue is persian . even though his name indicates he was born in khomein and is of persian ethnicity) or that ahmadinejad is jewish or that khamenei is an arab (even though hes azeri) or that the mollahs were completely alien to iran andsuddenly sprouted like mushrooms in iran after 1979.

that is their warped views. 

آقای شاه عن شاه اسماعیل دامت برکات

خمینی گفت: من شمارو می‌کنم ...لاکن نصیحت، گر با عمه ات زنا کردی، ازدواج با دخترش هست یک مصیبت.  گفت:‌ای مولا اگر زنم دختر عمه‌ام بود، و گاهی‌ سیخ زدم با مادرش چی‌.  گفتا: اشکال ندارد، گوشتی خورد به گوشتی و آبش نفع عمه، ثواب کن و خمسی بده به آخوند محله.

تحریر الوسیله

The thing is my dear

The thing is my dear friend

if you read anythin aboiut what i wrote you would know that I DO have a free mind and I do follow my ways , I follow the mullah as a philosopher , a person who has age and wisdom on me , who knows the world more than me , a kind man , a smart man , a knowledgeable man. I hate some mullahs , i love some mullahs . 

and thank you rosie , as for khomeini , only time i ever heard the child or camel sex story was when i talked about him to the likes of people on this site , you can even watch a 10 HOUR documentary on him on youtube and you will never hear the mention of such a story , if he said such a thing do you not think it would have been mentioned in his biography? 

shahanshahesmail

I think Rosie is right and you meant me. So let me get this straight to you:

I don't need you or that vampire Khomeini to figure what God gave me.  God gave me a brain and I use it. My relation with God is just fine and I don't have a seal on my eyes. Plus you do not need eyes you need a mind to understand God. I do the right thing; do not torture or rape people; do not steal from them; do not murder or stone them; do not blow things up; in other words I do not follow the Islamist path. And I think God is just fine with me. I don't need poetic words either and do need a marja taglid. I am not a meymoon. 

Why don't you go and try to use the brain God gave you instead of following Mullahs? Maybe you will learn something or improve yourself.

Imagine being faced with your own actions in afterlife. Would you be able to justify them or would you say "I followed the Imam"? I will be able to justify all my actions. I am proud of them and I see no reason why God for have any problem with me. Go save your own soul which is in much more peril than mine.

VPK

Esmail, PS

pack mentality forms very easily in C-space, as you know, and especially here where there are so many factions from a country that has been so torn apart in the recent history. The packs work both ways. Different packs growl at each other. Some packs target individuals. Very rarely they are planned, usually they are spontaneous.

You are going to get clobbered because you are part of a very small ideological minority here (clearly and avowedly pro-IRI), and in certain ways you are almost your own minority of one.  But actually a lot of the pack mentality forms on purely personal lines. There are gangs of this, gangs of that, gangs of these, gangs of those. The alliances aren't necessarily permanent either.

Just ignore for now. 

Well, anyway I am still working on replying to your post to me before the last one. It's tricky. In the meantime I just wanted to say that it's very interesting that you say people in Iran who follow Khomeini are not aware of his 'Explanation of Problems'. It is definitely bandied about here enough. When did you first hear of it and how? Have you ever read it?

Okay, I should have the other post ready later on.

Take care.

PS On rereading your post I think you meant that you have never read or seen the book?

rosie

theirs is the language of threats , insults and internet warrioring , it was a conversation between me and you and as usual , you get these idiots pile up at the exact same time "jamshid says something , vildemose bends over for him , some other douche they have a pact with also comes on and joins in" these people are mentally challenged.

I assure you these cowards would put their tales between their legs and run if they ever had to put their words into action.

jamshid , vildemose and the rest of the sick vile gang always seem to comment on the same time as each other and orally simulate each other to give credit to the sick fantasies they have . They have no basis , no logic  ,no reasoning. They keep bringing up this khomeini book which ironically has not been heard about by anyone who supports khomeini but these shahis and liberals somehow know more about khomeini than his own family ! 

Maziar, I said good night because of the time difference

 between New York and UK. (It's UK, not Ottowa, btw lol).

 1) your agreement and esmail type of IRR groupies from  the basement of Iranian embassy in Ottawa,ONT. is not going to change the brutal harsh rules of Islamic law put on Iranian men or women LET'S AGREE on that one FIRST.

It may change one person's opinion about these harsh laws, even an iota. Or not. Whatever the case, it will give me some insight into things I'd like to know about. Totally agree, we're not going to rock the world with this thread tomorrow.

2) Midwesty's virtual tour is merely a fantasy tour As you said kind of silly,never mind some rude comments that's why the god gave us 2 ears one to hear and the other to.....

I have quite a bit yet to say about Midwesty's virtual tour. I'll leave it for a future stop on that highway of his. Suffice to say for now that as far as I'm concerned, that little fantasy tour was as real as it gets.

3)I was born in a devout muslim family who even today practice all what ever said in their holy book, BUT make no mistake these thughs are not the practitioners of TRUE religion ,only their pockets, their stomaches,and under belly ( excuse my french ).

I make no mistake, Maziar, between devout Muslims (or Jews or Druids...) and oppressors in a theocratic regime.

4) GREEN is a made up movement to jump start their expired RULLING,moussavi,karroubi,jennati  ....and others are all part of the same gang, just like crips,bloods, ms13,.... once you're in you can not get out alive. please don't BUY their TAQIYEH (religiouse lies)which is permissable.

Which 'religious lies' are you asking me not to buy into specifically? I wasn't aware I  was buying into any lies or was gullible enough to be sold many in future. ilol

to counter ismail lie about punishment and his blah,blah.........my 19 years old brother was lashed 40 times with his other 2 friends CAUGHT smoking cigarettes during RAMAZAN in a jungle .......

This is terrible. I'm not surprised. When did that happen?

sorry to give you head ache this late......

No headaches whatsoever! 

________________

Maziar, I promise you, the day you guys (you who are against the Reformists and/or Greens) come up with even the beginnings of a viable strategy for establishing a secular parliamentary democracy in Iran post haste I will be there with bells on to strategize with you. I will spend every single moment of my time here on nothing but that. But the plan has to be according to my terms which are: minimal bloodshed and foreign intervention. Minimal bloodshed works both ways, meaning voices clamoring for death to all mullahs not allowed. Or should I say, must be convinced otherwise. 

In the meantime and for right now, I want to understand this person, that's all.  Nothing more and noting less. Except that I also want very much for him to try and  understand me. Anyway, we're both Green and...that is...well, it's quite something, isn't it?

Not exactly birds of a feather, are we, Shahhanshahesmail?  

Good morning.

Ms.rosie

rosie I taught on your previouse comment you said goodnite (nite)so I guess not.............

1) your agreement and esmail type of IRR groupies from  the basement of Iranian embassy in Ottawa,ONT. is not going to change the brutal harsh rules of Islamic law put on Iranian men or women LET'S AGREE on that one FIRST.

2) Midwesty's virtual tour is merely a fantasy tour As you said kind of silly,never mind some rude comments that's why the god gave us 2 ears one to hear and the other to.....

3)I was born in a devout muslim family who even today practice all what ever said in their holy book, BUT make no mistake these thughs are not the practitioners of TRUE religion ,only their pockets, their stomaches,and under belly ( excuse my french ).

4) GREEN is a made up movement to jump start their expired RULLING,moussavi,karroubi,jennati  ....and others are all part of the same gang, just like crips,bloods, ms13,.... once you're in you can not get out alive. please don't BUY their TAQIYEH (religiouse lies)which is permissable.

to counter ismail lie about punishment and his blah,blah.........my 19 years old brother was lashed 40 times with his other 2 friends CAUGHT smoking cigarettes during RAMAZAN in a jungle .........

sorry to give you head ache this late......

get you a nice glass of favorite WINE and put a nice classical that would make you feel free and away from all this head aches.  good nite               Maziar

esmail....

een cherto pert cheeye akhe....

 'in iran islan cannot be separated from politics..."

quit regurgitating this same ol' bs.......no one is gonna fall for this nonsense.

we want to thank you and the rest of the akhoonds for showing what they are capable of....and what the 'true color' is

your time has come and gone......you and the rest of the basijis had your time, now it's time for iran to be free

anyone who wants to practice islam is free to do so, except you and the akhoonds won't be around to shove it down their throat

it's YOU who will be an exile in south lebanon soon, make sure you pack well! 

Maziar,

Maziar, you wrote:

let's focus on IRAN, women's freedom,separation of mosques from rulling on peoples daily lives.........'

That's exactly what I'm doing. Don't you see that?  Think about it. If you still don't, ask me again.

Now for all I know Esmail feels that as a woman I should only be worth three-fifths is it? of a man's testimony in court, but here in the court of these threads he has respected me far more as a woman and/or American --or whatever, just as me for being me--than some.

Maziar, I feel far more welcome touring Iran on Esmail's bus than on Midwesty's. Where I was told early on to 'get off the bus" in aggressive, dictatorial fashion for no reason.  And I mention this, Maziar, not to 'indict' Midwesty but just to clarify my position here on this thread to you. I'm not even angry at Midwesty, btw--because he was ultimately just being so silly--but facts are facts.

There ARE devout Muslims, Maziar, profoundly pro-Revolution, among the Greens. They DO exist. Are many of them as 'fanatically' dogmatic as Esmail may sound to some? Well, I dunno, but if not, that makes his views all the more valuable to get an angle on the Greens in a way.

For me. Althought actually, I'd be interested in Esmail even if he weren't Green. I'm just trying to explain to you his particular relevance in that context.  

IRI, hey look who is talking

A supporter of regime of rape and murder complaining about "bi adabi". That's priceless.

rosie what happened ?

rosie hope when you get up in the morning you'd forgotten about that texan traps(hopefuly) sic.  you laid for rohola jr.

let's focus on IRAN, women's freedom,separation of mosques from rulling on peoples daily lives.........'

remember Islam and iran's islamic republic don't value women as equal in every aspects comparing to males.         Maziar

IRI...

this thread was completely dead. Esmail and I revived it because our discussion started on another thread where it was off-topic. You wouldn't be within a hundred miles of this thread if it weren't for me.

I already asked Esmail to ignore aggressive comments or any comments specifically intended to derail him from our discussion, and the same holds on my end. So before I decide whether or not I should ignore you I am going to ask you once to translate what you just wrote in Persian rather than bother using my dictionary, because that was kheili bitarbiat of you what you just did--and also rather than asking someone else to translate for me. And I don't want anyone else to, folks. Only her.

And if you don't do that for me IRI I am going to ignore you and respectfully ask Ismail if he wouldn't mind to please do the same.

Hey guys look who is talking here

گوز کَغ The new name for Vildemouse, bee adabtarin adam dar IC

I think there was a misunderstanding: VPK/Vild/Esmail

I think Esmail meant VPK when he said Vildemose. I'm not sure. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

____________-

Esmail, thanks again for your reply. I am going to work on one back to you addressing some specific points. There is a time difference factor here which will slow all this down but that is fine. Especially now that there is this wonderful system of notifying people by e-mail when new posts come in on threads, there is no pressure on continuing/'finishing' a discussion immediately.

I don't believe in tackling the most contentious areas or the huge underlying premises of the ideologies in question when two people have very different world views, especially ones that are apparaently diametrically opposed and also  incendiary. I prefer to start off by focusing on what offers  potential for common ground.

So far as I can see Ismail and I have found that we have a lot of common ground. We are both concerned about 'Western' so-called immorality and even frightened (to greater or lesser degree) about certain aspects of it.

We both recognize that the historical legacy and current impact of the 'West' is a mixed bag--having contributed some of the greatest and the worst of what is possible for humankind. (I am going to add to that, Ismail, pointing out that it's realy not accurate then to talk about a complete rejection of everything 'Western'...). We both understand that this website, to greater or lesser degree, does not provide a valid statistical sampling of opinion in Iran (I know this can't be because almost everybody here is highly educated and from the middle class, and that is not the case in Iran). 

We both agree that at least a significant percentage of the Green Movement is religious--some passionately so and in a conservative way--and that we here on the site can't judge what percentage of the movement this group represents--and I'll add that neither can anyone in Iran do so accurately either, because obviously no 'poll' has been taken.

I am totally cool with that.

For now.

;oP

Nighty night.

esmail: lol You wouldn't

esmail: lol

You wouldn't know god if it hit you in the face..You're a morally bankrupt creature who endorses Khomeinism, violence against infidels, torture, rape in the name of religion. Your place is in hell. You can be certain of that...

Esmail

"Then I read about khomeini , his poetic words , his heart piercing attitude , his denial of everything american and european in his country (which is how it should be) ."

Did you read about your emaam Khomeini's views on what to do after having sex with a camel? Or with a donkey? And why would there be a difference, have you asked?

What about the part that deals with having sex with a child? He clearly states there is a difference as to what a man must do afterwards, depending on whether there was a vaginal or annal penetration.

What about his awesome rulings on bool va ghaez (crap, urine, women's bleeding, etc.) There are almost 100 pages on those in his tozihol masaael.

Khomeini's poetry..., oh thank you god for having created such idiots.

rosie

I wish more replies were as consistant and polite as yours. Glad we agree on some things

I find many aspects of western civilization to be honourable . Namely their advancements in technology , the governments accountability to its people , respect for different races and so on , parliementary rule , elected leaders , which we have copied here in iran to a fantastic degree. Unfortunately , the bad outweighs the good , I do not accept that one has unlimited rights in everything , in iran defemation , insulting religious values which are burned into peoples hearts , adultery , homosexuality and other "mischief in the land" are not accepted and I agree with this and i assure you most of iran does , I beg you not to take these people on this site as representative of iranians. 

these immoral concepts are hated since time immemorial in iran , even before the islamic revolution these things were put as offences , because we consider them disgusting acts which breakdown the fabric of society , which in fact it does , it breaks up families , tears down relationships , increases hate . This is why it is stopped before it is allowed to spread.

As for the punishment of stoning , lashes and so on. These things rarely happen in iran , prison time and a worded declaration renouncing their acts is what happens most of the time . I consider stoning and lashes to be reserved for serious crimes , but I must ask this , do you not think a extreme punishment will lead to people thinking twice before causing a crime?

In iran , aswell as most of hte islamic world , islam is not and cannot be seperated from politics , economics and so on . In iran science is held in one hand and the qor'an in the other , after all khamenei and ahmadienjad never stop talking about scientific advancements , but we do not forget who we are with these advancements in technology , we keep our hands on our faith and spirituality , as for apostasy , in iran what happens in a persons private life , away from the public , is ignored and isnt made a fuss about . If someone apostasises and then goes into the street bragging about it and convincing others to do the same , does this not lead to a breakdown of unity and society? thats when it becomes a crime , ofcourse , one cannot control what goes on in the mind of a human being , khamenei , ahmadinejad , IRI and myself understand this. Conversion by force has rarely if ever happened in iran and if it does happen then everyone with a functionin brain would know that this is a doomed application that will fail. I leave on the note that I ask again that you not take those who are on this site as examples of iran or islam. They are but a tiny minority , who open their mouths and close their eyes to reality .

Dear Esmail, thanks so much

for your prompt and honest and impassioned explanation. You wrote:

Then I read about khomeini , his poetic words , his heart piercing attitude , his denial of everything american and european in his country (which is how it should be) .

"we are not afraid of economic sanctions , we are not afraid of military invasion , what frightens us is invasion by western immorality" - ruhollah khomeini .

I can certainly understand your concern, also fright, about immorality in the 'West' so-called. I am very concerned about it too.  What kind of culture is so saturated with consumerism and materialism that its elderly--that is to say, ALL its people eventually--are put out to pasture in old age homes isolated from the pulse of life when they are no longer productive because they are seen as no more than disposable products themselves? What kind of culture has such a high divorce rate when people have the historically unprecedented priviledge of choosing their 'life-long' mates completely freely after being able to compare them with other potential mates, including long term 'trial' marriages through living together even for years?  So that love and commitment, even when children are involved, has also become disposable. What kind of culture has such a high crime rate, including murder (in the U.S)? and so on.

It's interesting that you used the word 'frightened' because I have used it myself it to try to 'explain' (inasmuch as I or any other person is capable of 'explaining' something of such dimensions) what I call the 'Islamist backlash' against this 'Western' so-called immorality. Not to mention against our ultimate immorality which is the development and precedented use of weapons of mass destruction that with the push of a button could annihilate all living things except the cockroaches. I have asked secular 'Westerners' so-called how could they expect many people in more traditional cultures not to be frightened of becoming like us.

But I ask you this, Esmail: is it really possible for it to be true that an Islamic (or any) government can deny 'everything' American and European when you and I are having a wonderful conversation on a 'Western' technology. And that's not as simple or refutable as it sounds, Esmail, because the advancement of science hence technology within the past five hundred years and most especially the last two hundred since the Industrial Revolution is the direct fruit of 'Western' secularism both as ideology and way of life. And of course, more than perhaps anything, IRI in general and the people who, to greater or lesser extent, defend it here, point to strides in technology as much as anything with pride to prove the success of the Revolution.

I also ask you, Esmail, if, in combatting instances of immorality (I assume you would consider these cases I am about to mention immoral) Islamic law is not sometimes more immoral in its punishments meted out than the immoral acts it purports to eradicate from society. Examples being, execution for adultery and for apostasy  I believe IRI rarely does the latter but I also believe it's happened, and anyway, it's probably why you hear so little about conversions--I suspect there are numerous clandestine ones...and why would you want a 'Muslim' to be 'Muslim' by force, because then (s)he's not really a Muslim, is (s)he?). And I could give many more examples but these two will do for now.

Anyway I guess that'enough for now. I'd be very interested in hearing your perspectives on these two questions of mine. 

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oh and ps, please just call me 'Rosie' (or Robin) and I promise I'll never call you Baby Ruhollah again. ;o)

was rosie

well I dont know where to start , I use to be like the afformentioned vildemose (though not denying my culture) . I looked at the very face of khomeini and khamenei and was terrified to the core , even khatami scared me. I used to think they were these "crazy islamists who will cut your head off at a moments notice" and I kept attacking everything islamic , heck even reza pahlavi looked tasteful to me.

but then I started too look at what I was becoming , who I considered my heros and who I considered my enemies . I first looked into mohammad reza pahlavi , how he was educated in switzerland , considered european culture superior to his own , how he was substituting spirituality with materialism , his extravagant living which his only claim too was because he was lucky to be born into a specific family who stole the wealth of the nation . I then started asking myself "how did this man who denies his very culture become the leader of a muslim country?" Then I read about khomeini , his poetic words , his heart piercing attitude , his denial of everything american and european in his country (which is how it should be) .

"we are not afraid of economic sanctions , we are not afraid of military invasion , what frightens us is invasion by western immorality" - ruhollah khomeini .

Those words were taken right out of my mouth , I started reading the qor'an , I saw how poor repressed the people of the revolution were and I saw how relating it was to my situation. I lost half my friends cos of my new found "conversion" who told me they left iran to escape from people like me , in that instance My conviction and faith towards the islamic revolution was sealed . The people deserved to be thrown out and those who left did the right thing , iran cleared itself from microbes and bacteria who wanted to substitute its culture with a american western liberal , whether shahi or secular federalism republicanism or whatever, that is what I wont have.

what muslim who knows the qor'an would ask for a secular state? islam is itself a political system ,his brain must not work right who thinks islam can be seperated from politics. 

if I missed out on something tell me. 

vildemose

"As for those who reject faith , it is the same whether you warn them or do not warn them , they will not believe. God has set a seal on their hearts and their hearing , and on their eyes veils. great is their penalty" - Qor'an , you can deny your culture and the religion of your supposed people as much as you like it wont change anything , you never participated in the islamic revolution , we did , you lost , get over it .