JamilEghrari

This blog can be useful for more study

//torontoconference.blogspot.com/

Baha'ism is a cult

See this

//bahaism.blogspot.com/2011/09/how-bahai-fait...

and

this guy 'Momen' whenever he opens his mouth speaks half truth. Actually he is a 'Monafeq' not 'Momen'

Lily

I promised Hooshang I wouldn't criticize these people directly here. Unless they break the truce, I am sticking to it. I am happy to engage privately, however. What I will say to the cheerleaders, though, is that every argument Momen uses about apostates can be turned around and argued against his community - as the IRI has.

Note Roozbeh Gilani flagged my message and then one of the moderators edited the last clause of my message altogether.

Truthseeker9:

Spot On!  

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Ooooh TL

You are a sneaky one ... you came here and made certain claims on a Bahai blog about
Apostacy without knowing about Bahais and what Apostacy is. When challenged on their
source you became rude and threw a tantrum. Being lazy and expecting people to
let you get away with false claims may be "boring" to you but
transparent to the readers and reflects your true interest in a topic.

Since you continue to be disrespectful about me, someone who tried
to have a polite conversation with you, let me be frank with you. I let you get
away with your claim that you are equally against the cult of Islam. Your posts
through various Ids have shown you to be sympathetic to it and quite defensive
at times. Your jokey persona may fool some but it does not wash with me. Ad for some reason you think people come to IC to have a discussion
with You for your silly posts, and that makes You “interesting”. 

Yes this is a site where you are given a free reign to post as many posts in all blogs, but it would help you if you made some effort to know what you are talking about once in a while, instead of writing jokey posts hiding insults towards bloggers and people who are trying to have a civilized discussion. Now that is all the attention you are going to get from me - I am done with You.

RB

Thanks for your reply. I was bored with T9's arguments, which couldn't even be called 'strawman', as they had zilch to do with the content of my posts, not the topic itself.

I did see what you meant, but  take this from your post:

"Take yourself as an example, you appear far more intent on going on about what a cult the Bahais are than the suffering they have been enduring at the hands of the Islamic Republic authorities. Why that should be, only you know. "

And see why, precisely because of such a take, I did bother to write further on the topic and it is to my view, imperative to point out what I did point out, especially when I mentioned human rights organizations, the illogical junkyard and cults in general.  

The degrees and levels of harm are, of course, another topic of discussion, but I did try to point that out at various stages and with varying degrees, they all do a lot of harm. 

It doesn't mean that everyday, I decide on a percentage take of concentrated revulsion and I certainly shouldn't be made to feel obliged to display my disgust at every turn.   I prefer an overview. 

I have great difficulty in understanding how you wish to conduct a discussion about a certain theology, the topic of this blog and video, without getting into a theological discussion. I don't get it at all. 

Thanks for this: 

"You think different? That's cool, I respect your right to do so.  "

Well, precisely and that was my main point: respecting the right to a view, but not being obliged to respect the view itself.  

TL

I'd already noted your views on the matter, though I appreciate the additional effort to bring it to my attention (despite being officially bored of the topic earlier on).

Only thing is, it has nothing to do with the comments I made. I did not question the validity of anyone's views of the Bahai Beliefs and indeed clearly stated that my intention was not to engage in a theological discussion on these people's faith.

My comment was prompted by the incredulity of the constant attacks (not just here) on a people, who after all are fellow Iranians and who as far as I know have not harmed anyone to deserve such mistreatment by the regime in Iran.

Take yourself as an example, you appear far more intent on going on about what a cult the Bahais are than the suffering they have been enduring at the hands of the Islamic Republic authorities. Why that should be, only you know.

There are groups and people in Iran that I don't particularly care for, who have also been victimized by the IR. But I choose to spend what little time I can devote to these discussions to what I consider to be of more urgency/importance and that is the mistreatment of the persecuted by the IR, than constantly attacking the particular beliefs of the groups I happen not to like, especially when those groups have not done anyone any harm.

Just to be clear though, as I said earlier, in no way am I suggesting that Bahais or anyone else should be off-limits when come to having critical discussions of anyone's beliefs/views. It's just that I find the sheer weight/frequency of anti-Bahai comments (here and elsewhere) difficult to fathom, when it appears to me anyway they are among the victims not the perpetrators of repression in Iran.

You think different? That's cool, I respect your right to do so. 

Yes, thanks for the link

Spot on in diagnosis:

"there have been a number of individuals who although they had no great status within the Baha'i community before they left, have, partly by reason of being articulate and intellectual and partly by virtue of the Internet, been able to be create a lot of "noise" in their opposition to the Baha'i Faith." 

"When one bears in mind Scheler's description of the apostate as one who "is engaged in a continuous chain of acts of revenge against his own spiritual past" and who "remains a captive of this past, and the new faith is merely a handy frame of reference for negating and rejecting the old", one is reminded of a rancourous divorce. For most people, there are some accusations and recriminations in a divorce and it can take people up to five years to get over it, but then they rebuild their lives and set off in a new direction. There are, however, some individuals who cannot let go. They cannot get over the rage, depression and desire to retaliate and are still in this state of mind ten or more years later. Two groups tend to fall into this latter category, those with personal psychopathology and those who have become deeply distressed during the process of separation (Schwartz and Kaslow, 1997, pp. 80-81, 229-230). Building on this analogy, it is noticeable that many of the individuals who go on to become apostates have had a considerable career as marginal Baha'is first, which does not tend to be the case with the Baha'i leavetakers. It may therefore be that the period of time spent as a marginal Baha'i, with the attendant problems encountered with the Baha'i institutions, creates the conditions of distress that then means that the separation becomes rancorous and the apostate cannot let go."

Anyone recognise these traits?

Reality Bites

The subject of the video presented in this blog is that of Baha'ism and Politics, alleged or otherwise. 

The fact that Baha'is or anyone else for that matter is persecuted under any totalitarian regime is, of course, one of the greatest abhorrent atrocities committed.

To try to explain my stance: there is no logic in saying that e.g. the Jewish faith is better because of the horrors of the holocaust.  

My objection is, if I still haven't made it clear enough in my posts below, that I refuse to revere any cult and by cult, I mean its "classical" definition: the main difference between cults and those other cults known as religions is the volume of followers and consequent "power and influence". They ALL without fail have fascistic elements of rules, rituals, highly unethical "judicial structures", are on a path of the destruction of the individual within a totalitarian concept, under the banner of "unity", with even more hocus pocus at the helm.  

ALL of them claim to have a prejudicial  better pot to piss in, all their pots are fictitious fairy-tales and demand reverence and respect.  

That is my description of the principles of all cults; it does not follow that that would be the description of each and every follower.

Those who work tirelessly with human rights organizations do not excercize the discriminations and prejudices that cults themselves, very often, invertedly  advocate.

If you want to have fun though, I did this for a day, try pantheistic solipcism: it's the funniest daze or hallucinogenic placebo ever. :)

Tabarzin, LOL! Great one

 Thanks for providing the link

Straight out of the horse's mouth, as he had hinted at in the video. 

Would be interested to know what you think about this though: he uses 6 cases. Does that warrant a paper or would you consider that moreover anecdotal or e.g. as a form of representation?  

Reality Bites, I agree with your Key points....

also the points that Truthseeker raised.

What is true is that the Bahai faith has been a direct threat to shia clergy from day dot. Hence the sustained campaign of persecution of islamist regime against it's members, including the execution, for Bahaiis simply believeing in their own faith. This campiagn of disinformation and hatred towards bahaii's is vastly directed and finaced by the islamist regime and is no different from the typical Hojjatieh society's (which has such characters as Ahmadinezhad/Jennati  as it's members). But given the audience, internet based, better informed, the anti bahaii campaign and campaigners are packaged differently. This blog and the group of respondents I forcasted to join the anti bahaii chorus is a good example of my argument! SAnd of course once challenged and exposed for their lies, they run off with their tails between their legs, after calling you a "Mossad agent"! 

"Tabarzin": Yep, you're right. You are no Mosad mataerial. You'd even fail islamist regime's etelaat ministry's minimum IQ  requiremet of 40 test. They must had lowered their requirements for you to get in thoough! And remember: get a job & seek psychiatric help urgently........

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Regarding the Bahais

As I think I said (memory isn't that great) in another discussion on IC some time back, while I grew up in Iran I was friends with a boy from a Bahai family neighbours of ours for some years. My friend wouldn't talk much about his family's faith at all and we kind of pretended there were no issues in that regard.

It was only when I grew older that I found out his family and relatives suffered serious persecution under the IR. I lost touch after I left Iran and have no idea what happened to him and his family.

Now, my intention here isn't get into an in-depth theological discussion as to whether the Bahai Faith is a cult, an invention of the Brits, and whether Bahais are lackies of the Zionists and the West with ulterior motives etc.

All I would say is that, as far as I know, over their recent predicaments in particular, i.e. the past 32 years under the rule of the IR, despite their sustained persecution by the regime, Bahais have not murdered anyone, they have not committed violence against anyone, they haven't planted bombs anywhere, they have not attacked anyone and they have not collaborated with any terrorist groups against the state.

Yet all I hear from some fellow Iranians is what a dangerous cult the Bahais are! I hear people focusing on castigating the Bahais for barring certain individual ex-Bahais who for whatever reason have fallen out with the Bahais, from taking part in official Bahai activities (almost always from perspective of the ex-Bahais), as if no other faith/group/organisation ever bars anyone who no longer wishes to abide by its tenets. Ooh, what a nasty bunch these Bahais are.

Now, maybe Bahais are a foreign created cult, and as a non-religious person (I still can't make up mind if there is an almighty up there), I don't know and I don't much care either way. But if they are, the Bahais must sure be disappointed that their foreign creators/backers haven't lifted a finger to stop their persecutions in Iran, beyond the odd feeble UN moan at the IR's violation of Human Rights.

Bahais are not the only people that have been persecuted by the IR. Millions of other Iranians have too. However, the difference that I perceive is that, while we, rightly, have deep concern and empathy for the welfare of our fellow Iranians, we (or at least some of us) think Bahais had it coming and deserve every mistreatment inflicted on them. I find that deplorable.

By Moojan Momen

Marginality and Apostasy in the Bahai community

Religion 37 (2007) 187-209

-

Gilani: sorry to disappoint you. But I am currently not recruitment material.

It is what you wrote

and I was just trying to explain some facts to you with regards to this religion and apostacy which you mentioned, who is arguing? There is a lot of rubbish on the internet and not always the best source of facts. And it is not just for your attention.

Yes I think you are bored and not really that interested TL. Happy doodling elsewhere. Ewwwwawwwww! There, that should be more on your wavelength.

T9, I'm now officially bored of this

I don't know why you keep insisting on reading something else into my posts and then having an argument with whatever it is you think you are arguing with. 

Quite frankly, how on earth  the reality of social ousting (well-documented, plenty of articles on this very subject available to be googled) justifies executions is beyond me, not to mention what on earth it has to do with my posts addressing what was being said in the video.

See you on another blog or topic or something and on another day.  

dear TL

Perhaps someone in the know can comment on your claims “socially outcasted
brutally; from sudden job losses to great difficulties within neighbourhoods
and getting bank accounts blocked”. Where are you getting this from? You need to understand many many people leave this religion freely and are not labelled anything. Under what circumstance does one become an apostate and how many Bahai apostates are there? Apostates show obsessive, hateful spirit of revenge against the Baha'i Faith or its community of believers.

About your claims, if true, which I do not believe, do not justify ex disgruntled
Bahai  to advocate execution of Bahai
Leaders and exclusion of bahais from their country Iran. SO who is fascistic?

We must also be wary of being judges in an environment where all facts are not presented, and so being manipulated by what we
hear through the grapevine. If you want to know about Bahais then ask Bahais,
not ex disgruntled Bahais or their enemies. 

Tabarzin: your illness: Too much time, too much hate:

A very dangerous combination, leading to endless hours in the fanatcy "sheikdom" of internet :) 

Cure:

1) One daily dose of honest WORK , 5 times a week,  to be taken between the hours of 9-5, in return for wages. (Make sure you google first to learn  the Concepts of "WORK", and "WAGE") 

2) Weekly visits to a government funded Psychiatric unit. 

Rabbit: Same for you and all your other user ID's :)

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

T9, Glad that's sort of sorted...

Btw if you listen to the video , you will notice that the question of apostasy is of an unwritten rule within Baha'ism: in practise, dissenting voices or those who don't fit the box, are socially ousted quite brutally; from sudden job losses to great difficulties within neighbourhoods and getting bank accounts blocked. Just like any other cult and its fascistic rules of sticking their noses into the everyday lives of all its in/voluntary followers.  

As a minority group however, yes, I agree with you, they have their rights to be respected within any kind of democracy. 

TL

thank you for the explanation. 

T9

There is a clear distinction of people having the right to "faith" and that of respecting that faith. 

If you are referring to my question to Salman Farsi on one of his blogs, please, once more, reread my posts: I asked why and what Salman Farsi had meant, in view of the FACT that a large chunk of the population in Iran is of Islamic faith. It does NOT mean that I have any respect for any form of hocus pocus, but that the fact of the matter needs to be taken into account and in a democracy such views are legitimately correct in demanding some form of representation.

Neither does it mean that I don't think that the very idea of an "Islamic democracy" isn't an oxymoron: for one, it discriminates against half the world's population e.g. the female gender. Hardly a democratic representation....

'Hope that the above has made my position clearer. 

P.S. Capital Punishment is beyond barbaric.... 

"The solution to the World Problems..."

No kidding, mumbo jambo.

OK TL

But I distinctly remember you defending those advocating
"Islamic Democracy". So this disrespect of cults you talk about seems
to fall short of Islam which is the most intolerant of them all. Just my
impression from your posts.

Anyway, the reason I defend the rights of Bahais and other faiths
to live under Secular Iran is because certain people on IC had called for
Bahais to be expelled from Iran and for the 7 leaders to be executed. I find those types of posts dangerous and
distasteful. Need to make it clear that the author of this blog was not one of them, though I do not know his true identity.

I'm out of here ... 

T9 what are you on about?

I was responding to Roger Rabbit's post, from which I quoted in the title of my post!

Please, reread my post again: it's a run of the mill question about the whys and wherefores of respect for "faith". 

'Haven't even read your post yet.

TL

Fine, I am an atheist and have made that clear. But first find out about what you are criticizing and then make an informed comment. Just trying to trash people and their posts just for the sake of it doesn't do much for your credibility.

"I have much respect for Dr Mo'men and his faith". Why?

I have no respect for hocus pocus mambo jumbo gibberish called "faith". I respect people's rights to be stupid, but I have no respect for stupidity whatsoever, including my own and I have every right to be vociferous about any cult's whether Bahai, Catholic or Wicca discriminatory behaviour against, especially homosexuals or anyone else who doesn't fit into their little dumb box or when they all start killing each other and poor me might be in the firing line.

There. Tiger Lily hath spoken.

:) 

JE

Actually you know that you are wrong when you say "anybody can see my previous blogs and conclude this (I am not Haifain Bahai)". Most people do not know about the Bahai religion and assume posts about Bahais are from Bahais (what you term "Haifain"). At least you are honest enough to admit, once challenged, that you belong to a splinter group. 

Wait wait wait !!!

Ok! I am not a Baha'i of Haifa denomination. Anybody can see my previous blogs and conclude this. I have earlier also posted about Unitarian Baha'is that was read 1046 times. So the Haifan Baha'is need not bother so much. I am 'OTHER' and not the Haifan. But Mr. Moojan Momen is a Baha'i scholar and this blog is dedicated to his speech at the OTHERING conference in Canada. Please talk about that. More of the videos of this conference can be found here :

www.sitenama.net

I am a regular visitor of Iranian.com and I know there are a few Haifan Baha'is here. It came to my notice that Haifans did not posted any videos of this important Baha'i conference so I posted this. Is that a crime to post Baha'i videos here?

Here is an interesting (uncensored) debate regarding this conference:

//bahairants.com/intellectual-othering-the-ba...

I am thankful to all those who visited this blog and presented their valuable and unbaised comments here.

RB, I thought this too

" I get the feeling he is not a Bahai himself, but merely posting blogs to cause controversy for whatever reason ..."

There used to be Mona Tahiri and others IDs who use to pose as bahais and post blogs to make people suspicious of Bahais. Seems they have been reincarnated to a different form. 

See this blog:

<><><><>

 //iranian.com/main/blog/mona-tahiri/invitation-baha-i-faith-comprehensive-introduction-course

by Adib Masumian on Sun Jun 12, 2011 04:45 AM PDT

This Mona character is not a Baha'i—they only pretend. "She" has been hanging around Iranian.com for a while now, creating posts that make Baha'is seem like a band of religious nutjobs. We are not all so naive and indiscriminately overzealous ;) 

<><><><>

There are a few ex Bahais that have a beef with this Momen guy anyway as he named them Apostates.

//iranian.com/main/blog/nur/haifan-bahais-name-apostates-moojan-momens-2007-article 

No, no, not you...

Reality-bites-e-gerami. The caniption referred to Roozbeh.

But about the disciple part, any comment to that ;-)

tabarzin jaan

I agree with your sentiments. I only trust that I was not assumed to be having a conniption, as I was merely making an observation and, to be fair, also an assumption on the part of the blogger.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for discussion on all kinds of issues and topics and no individuals or groups should be immune. Just as importantly, no one should be scolded for instigating discussions, otherwise we'd never have any.

However, it's just that I find a little sneaky for anyone to post selective controversial blogs solely on the same topic (whatever that topic maybe), cause a furore and then withdraw without saying a word as to what prompted his chosen blog(s) and what his agenda is, as he surely has one.

Anyway, it's no a big deal and I could be wrong in my assumptions,