VIEW

Demonizing (Technique # 1) Straight taken from the handbook

The handbook says: "If you're debating somebody and you see you can't win then 'Demonize' him/her. Create Lies about that individual. Name calling could be used too, it's OK. But the truth stays the same. Russian Jews, American Jews, other Jews are moving into brand new housing settlements built on illegally occupied land belonging to natives. The natives cannot even drive on the road designated for 'Jews Only'. "American public  attitudes favores  US disengagement from Israel." They feel more and more volunerable politically for supporting Israel.

And I End Our Talk With This:

"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." American theologian, Reinhold Nierbuhr

VPK:

I did NOT accuse you of supporting IR supporters. PLEASE read my post more carefully! I wrote: "I know you DON'T think what they are doing IS NOT hypocritical or treasonous..." It means you DO think it is ... Or ....

G, Rahmanian

I think the confusion is over what "I think" vs. what should happen in a democracy. I think what Isaid. However in a democracy I don't make the final descision. My opinion is input into the system which through its institutions will make any final descision. My opinion will be one among many; not "the" final word.

G, Rahmanian

I think you are mistaken about my positions.

I am not supporting the: "anti-imperialists" and pro-regime entities and their lobbies in the west.

You asked:  Why do you think it is alright for them to get their salaries from firms or institutions in the US and pay their taxes to their stauchest enemy, the US government...

I don't! What made you think I did? It is of course hypocritical. 

How many will be punished forctheir support of the heinous crimes perpetrated by IR?

I hope all of them.

Should they be forgiven as soon as they apologize? Some even want to be seen as leaders of the Iranians' uprisings for freedom and democracy.  And they don't have the slightest idea what democracy or democratic freedoms are!

No a simple apology is not enough depending for any serious crime. Regarding their idea of democracy you are probably right.

No

VPK:

You wrote:"Regarding the rest: I find MKO actions went too far. I also think that IRI leadership has gone too far: people like Khamenei and Ahmadinejd must be tried. I also said that in a democracy the judiciary will decide what to do with them. Don't you agree .."And this was my initial argument!!!

VPK, For The Sake Of Argument:

I ignored your sophistry with regards to democracy. However,As Simorgh has put it correctly, look at all the "anti-imperialists" and pro-regime entities and their lobbies in the west. Why do you think it is alright for them to get their salaries from firms or institutions in the US and pay their taxes to their stauchest enemy, the US government or other governments in the west, for that matter? Benifiting from the enemy's generosity is nothing but hypocritical, to say the least! BUT the same entities talk of treasonous others. I know you don't think what they are doing is not hypocritical or treasonous, but in a world detached from our personal feelings and based on the rule of law, how many of these individuals will face prosecution of any kind? How many will be punished forctheir support of the heinous crimes perpetrated by IR? There are entities in the west who, when they were in positions of power in Iran, ruined millions of lives. Should they be forgiven as soon as they apologize? Some even want to be seen as leaders of the Iranians' uprisings for freedom and democracy. And they don't have the slightest idea what democracy or democratic freedoms are!

  Regarding:

Regarding: Ahmadinejad: I have no idea what you are talking about.

Regarding argument: You asked me my opinion; and my reasons. I gave you a detailed response. What else do you want? 

Regarding the rest: I find MKO actions went too far. I also think that IRI leadership has gone too far: people like Khamenei and Ahmadinejd must be tried. I also said that in a democracy the judiciary will decide what to do with them. Don't you agree ..

VPK:

Know how much you respect Ahmadinejad, so let me compare your way of arguing to his. It was YOU who commented on my initial post and not the other way around. It is not whether I like your arguments or not. If I liked them I wouldn't argue against them. The point is that you argue simply for the sake of argument and you are not pleased with counter-arguments you receive.

G, Rahmanian

You asked my opinion and reasons. I gave you my reasons.You don;t like them because they are "old"! Maybe because they are so well known and never addressed. 

A democracy is based on personal feelings. That is what makes us make personal choices which is reflected in our votes. You bet my personal feelings shape my opinion. Otherwise I will be a robot like MKO wants its members to be.

You do not like my arguments fine.

I am not judge and jury I am an individual. Obviously in a free Iran the laws passed by government will define what is to be prosecuted. Then the judiciary system will determine what to do with MKO.

VPK

I dare say

A shift in American foreign policy which is not favoured by the Israelis has been coming since the first (Persian) Gulf War. The first President Bush became a one-timer because of his policies towards Israel. Immediately after 9/11, there was a public sentiment as to why America has to pay the price for Israel's relentless anomosity towards Arabs and Palestinians. This sentiment was very quickly muffled by the media in the US.

Never increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Simorgh Jan

Thank you.  I have noticed is that Palestinian "advocates" will NEVER criticize them. I have yet to have Q; Abarmard; Mehrdad or any of the vocal type do this.

When I mention Palestinians sided with Saddam they go into damage control. Either deny it or makeup "reasons" for it.

Regarding my family home. I brought it up because they make such a big deal of "peoples homes". Mehrdad's dismissive response told me a great deal. Basically Palestinian homes mean more than Iranian homes to them. Iranians must not expect any help. Because all the help is going to the Palestinians.

We could have followed the Palestinian example: move into a camp and whine. Instead we worked hard and earned ourselves a new home. We are not expecting someone else to do our job.

Thank You

VPK

VPK:

No, you don't. Because you simply revert to the same tired old arguments that have no bearing on my initial statement that in a democracy there is very little room for personal feelings when it comes to an issue as important as this! In a democracy institutions that are empowered to run the affairs of the country will be responsible to deal with such issues. Otherwise there will anarchy.

Mollah Nasserdlin:

Any validity in your comments is lost in the flood of negativity and venom.

You have lost your way despite your good intentions. I'm truly sorry that you won't even understand where I am coming from.  You will just be angry with me instead of hearing and contemplating my message.

I wish you well and hope that good things come your way.

شتر در خواب بیند پنبه دانه

Down with the islamist regime and back to pimping and drug dealing to all it's west residing cyber agents! 

Simorgh5555: "gutter language"???

That may be a "gutter language" for you to ask some one to stand up for his/her own right and defend what is rightfully his, but not mine. In fact that is an honorable trait and I wish more of us had it.

However, what is a "gutter language" in my book, is to bring one's family upbringing, accusing them of bigotry when you absolutely have no information about that person's family back ground or upbringing. You see if I was going to judge your parents for your behavior…. It would not have been a very flattering picture, but I will not fault them for who you are.

Here is an example of gutter language which was used in this very same blog,

"But keep at it: Single Israel out. It's not your fault. When you were growing up your parents told you that the yahudis were Najis and unfortunately you haven't quite shaken that off now that you're a grown man"

sound familiar?  It should you wrote it

What can one expect from a person that openly advocate, in fact begs for the bombing of his mother land by the very same countries that have over and over proven to have no care for the Iranian people at heart.

Mehrdad

US Americans are sick and tired of Israel and its criminal

activities in the Middle East. Who says so? The latest polls tells us, here is one:

"American attitudes toward Israel are changing.  The American Public Opinion and U.S. Foreign Policy polling unit, that works on behalf of the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations  has argued that the American opinion shift accelerates with each Israeli  outrage such as the saturation bombing of much of south Lebanon and south Beirut during the July 2006 war,  the civilian slaughter, more than one-third women and children,  in Gaza during the winter of 2008/9,  the May 2010 murders and carnage committed against  the Mavi Marmara, including  the assassination of 19-year old American Furkan Dogan,  and  the cumulative effect of a half century of Geneva Convention  and international law  violations  by Israel against  occupied Palestine and Lebanon.  Some opinion analysts, like the 2009 Zogby International poll of American attitudes toward Israelis and Palestinians,  express surprise by what they are learning from the American public and detect  significant changes in  American public  attitudes favoring  US disengagement from Israel."

G Rahmanian

I know where you are going with the argument. Therefore I will get to the point.

MKO differs in the following ways:

• MKO participated in actions that would have led to loss of Khuzestan. They shot at Iranian soldiers. They just went a heck of a lot further than any other group did. To me: they crossed a line that no one else did.
• The MKO leadership remains the same as 30 years ago. They have not been open and best I know have not changed their views. 
• I reject their treatment of their own members. Forced divorces; absolute loyalty; the whole approach is dictatorial and wrong headed. Note: this particular item does not mean treason.  

I have aid before I am alright with giving amnesty to their lower level members. However their leadership must stand trial. Being against death penalty means I do not want them executed. f guilty they should serve their punishment.

Just to be clear I am not opposed to parties with Marxist ideology. I am not against their politics. I am against their leadership in many ways. Hope this explains things.

VPK:

If individuals and organizations which had long political history could be fooled, then cannot the same theory be applied when it comes to MKO? Is this something personal? Because if not, then I detect hypocrisy at its extremity. Again, I'd like to reiterate that my argument is not in defense of any particular entity. I'd rather deal with the hypocrisy involved in such arguments. From your response it is obvious that your views change as a matter of convenience.

G Rahmanian

1) Yes it is illigitimate

2) It may be argued that after the referendum there was a degree of legitimacy. However that was over 30 years ago. Once Khomeinis lies became apparent some of the legitimacy was lost. The final blow for me was the AN "re-election".

3) No, most of them got fooled. They did not mean to harm Iran. There are those who admit their mistake while others refuse to. Being subborn does not mean treason. 

4) Yes

5) Yes

6) Yes

7) Yes

8) No deliberately. Therefore in my opinion they did not do treason.

9) Not necessarily. There has to be a high bar including knowledge and intent. 

10) No.

VPK Jan

Or better yet, grow some balls and take back what is rightfully yours.
Don't expect others to go and fight for you and give your dad/family
business back to you.

This is typical gutter language from Mehrdad and it is not the first time he speaks in this manner. It should be obvious that he speaks with the typical resentment and bad manners of the typical Iranian Left who chanted 'marg bar shah' and called Khomeni 'Imam' before they realised what they got themselves into. Notice how these people winge about people being raped in Iran but offer no solution and insult you for daring to suggest sanctions. They actually enjoy misery, matyrdom and believe there is nobolity in suffering. This is their sick mentality. 

Ignore the guy and let him spew in his own ignorance.  Or better still, die for Palestine. 

VPK:

Sorry for the typos!!!

VPK:

My pocket dictionary says: "Yreason is the crime of doing something that could cause danger to your country, such as helping its enemies during a war."Now, I have a few questions:1. Do you believe the IR regime is ollegitimate? 2. Do you believe it ever had any legitimacy, to begin with? 3. Do you believe those who sided with Khomeini acted against Iran's national interests? 4. Do you believe the war should have ended and a ceasefire declared as soon as the Iraqi side asked for it! 5. Do you believe the continuation of hostilities with Iraq was used by IR against the interests of Iranians and for the sole purpose of continuiileitis illegitimate existence? 6. Do you believe that IR was and is as dangerous as Sadam's regime was and had acted against the interests of a great majority of Iranians through it's unwillingness to accept the ceasefire offered by Iraq six months into the war? 7. Do you know that the current opposition organizations, except for the monarchists and some small groups, sided with the revolution, initially? 8. Do you believe organizations that in one way or another helped IR establish itself acted against Iranians' interests? 9. Do you believe acting against Iran's interests by any individual or group is treasonous? 10. Do you believe that any activity, by any mame and under any pretext, which may in any form or shape lead to the continuation of the rule of the current regime in Tehran constitutes acts of treason? I appreciate your answers.

Ah

I have been mentioning a long list of reasons I am sick of Palestine. My answer was in explaining my particular comment. However you never showed any interest in Iranian lives when I mentioned them. But as soon as I mention my property suddenly you are worried about Iranian lives!! Up to now it was just Palestinians. Why don't you make up your mind? Is it Iranians or Palestinians. You know talking to you Sir is a waste of time. Why don't you go join the next flotilla? I have had it with people who will do anything to make excuses for this sorry regime.

You had me fooled for a while but it is pretty obvious where you are coming from. I guess some IRI supporters are better at putting up a facade than others. Now it is obvious. 

Palestinian good; Iranian bad. Iranian asking for his family property must "grow up": meaning I must shut up and put up. Palestinian asking for property requires an army of fake "peace activists" and international blah blah.

PS,

I don't need your orders to grow up. This is the last communications I have with you. 

VPK: Pleeeeease… give me a break

"My family had a house in Iran and a business that gave people jobs. The Islamists took them both. I want them back"

Excuuuuuse me for not having spoken against the property that you and your family lost to Islamist.

People are dying in Iran, are being put behind bars for no reason or simply for speaking their mind… people are getting raped both behind bars and in open and you want me to go and cry for your family house and business that was taken over 30 years ago. The business that in know nothing about?

And this is your beef that you have with folks who "chanting "Palestine" never talk about Iranians who had thing stolen"

One does not know whether to laugh or cry but surly no wonder why we are in such a state of shamble for 31 years.

This is the perfect example of what I referred to in my RESPONSE to YOU which you claim I did not answer, despite sending you a link to it, that we ALL only care about our own well being.

Here is another excerpt from the very same response that you did not get (apparently)

Lets examine this quickly, shall we:

- From the millions of us outside and in opposition, how many did go back to join the uprising?

- From the millions of us outside and in opposition, how much financially have we helped those who are paying high price for fighting the regime?

- From the millions of us outside and in opposition, how many are united under one leadership and one voice?

Grow up for crying out loud…

Or better yet, grow some balls and take back what is rightfully yours. Don't expect others to go and fight for you and give your dad/family business back to you.

Mehrdad

Response to Mehrdad's post

• I said what I meant. You post is your interpretation. People on Iranian are smart enough to not need a boland go. They will decide for themselves what I meant.
• I am not under obligation to answer your questions. I asked you a question a while ago and you refused to respond. I could chose to do the same.

However I chose to explain what I mean and why. Because I stand on firm ground and have no need to avoid responding.

My family had a house in Iran and a business that gave people jobs. The Islamists took them both. I want them back. The Islamist seem to think they have a right to steal. Because they do it in the name of Allah. 

People who keep chanting "Palestine" never talk about Iranians who had thing stolen. I have NEVER heard you or Moosir or Molla or anyone who is big on Palestine to talk about Iranian people's property. Why?

The Muslims have been taking for 1400 years. It is time for tables to turn. But they are not getting it. They seem to think it is still 6th century. They did not manage to "drive the Jews" into the sea. They will eventually fail in Iran.

Now they all want to rescue Palestinians. While Iranians starve; have property stolen and are treated worse than dirt. But all for the glory of Islam; no worries about them from the Palestinians advocates.

Mola Nadradeen

Blind hatred of Jews has obsucured your vision it seems. I have said and will say again the settlements pre-1967 are illegal and they should be dismantled to make way for a Palestinian homeland. Many mainstream Israelis will even agree with this. Many Israelis will even share your position that the treatment of Palestinians by the reactioanry elements of the IDF and Police is also bad. These should be addressed properly and newspapers such as Haaretz, B'Tsaleemand Peace Now publicise these outrages. Having said that, there are 2 million strong Israeli Arabs living in Israel proper and whilst there is tension within the communities and discrimination they is a very well represented and vociferous Arab community who participate in all levels of society. Whilst is not perfect the standard of living forIsraeli Arabs is infinitely better than their counterparts who are left to rot in refugee camps by the Lebanese, Syrian and Egyptian and Jordanian brothers who refuse to integrate them. Indeed the treatment ofArabs as a minority is better than Jews in Iran who like other religious minorities are restricted. 

You know nothing about Israel/Palestine and simply regurgitate mass propaganda you listen to 24/hrs a day on Islamic TV. 

Does your concern for Palestinian justify your hatred towards Jews that you refuse to recognise their homeland and hating them so much that you are prepared to engage in hostilities at the price of ignoring Iran? Admit it, you are a racist and your hatred of Jews fills every fibre of your body. Iran is a hundred times bigger than Israel/Palestine with  a population with 60 million people living under tyranny. It is the largest country under occupation in the Middle East by a terrorist Islamic theocracy which is anti-Iranian to the core

Don't use Palestine or  Islam as an excuse for your Jew hate.  The fight for Palestinian nationhood is an anethema to Islam because Islam does not recognise states other than one nation of Muslims. As a proper Muslim you would spend your energy helping Muslims who are being killed and disposessed on a greater scale than Palestine. Yet your Jew hate prevents you from being objective and reaching out to them. You accept and live in the USA  (a country whose white settlers wiped out the native folks living there) and in your mind you make a distinction between people and government but when it comes to Israel your hatred of Jews prevail over any acceptance of her existence. This why all your posts are blighted with  hpocricy. 

Shame on you, Molla Nasradeen. Do you know what the most unforgivable crime is in being Iranian? Ignorance. 

I leave you with a verse from your beloved Koran:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites
how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him:
'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,'
he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and
the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are
doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of
the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together
with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites:
'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of
the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah]
shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land
of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth,
and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed]
forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

So by VPK account

"We want our land back the same way Jews got theirs back"

so, by this account,  Iran should be waging war and occupying Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan Turkey, Iraq, Syria… heck maybe even parts of Israel.

My dear VPK, this is how Israel has done it by waging war and occupying others land.

Mehrdad

veiled face one,

You are using the 'Distraction' technique, read my comment to S5555. The subject at hand is growing illegal settlement on occupied land and the frustrations it has created for US Americans.

Shotor Khan

To some of use the real subject is expansion of Islamism on someone else land: Iran. We want our land back the same way Jews got theirs back.  

Here is the deal: In the past 1400 years Islam spread. At the cost of everyone else. Now Islam is being pushed back. By Jews in Israel and by others. Why was it fine for Islam to push Jews and others out; forcing them to be Muslim. Why is it so different now that the roles are reversed. You win some then lose some. Now Islam is losing and doing so big time. In fact this is just the beginning. Next is gonna be Iran and the West. Islam is under attack from all sides. I understand why Islamists are so worries.