IDEAS

Failed Prophet!

I am neither Muslim nor "Islamist", and more importantly I don't live in Iran, so I have no worries for myself if likes of you or the SS guy come to power (not that I think Failed Prophets have any chance)!  

Islamists Projecting

It is interesting reading all the worries of Islamists. The worries about being subjected to genocide. Or ethnically cleansed whatever. 

In reality all the true ethnic cleansing and mass murders in Iran were done by Islamists. So I think they are just projecting their own fears. To our dear Islamist friends: we don't act like you. We the nationalist seculars do not believe in genocide. We do not believe in forcing religion or lack of it on people. We want government out of religion. So you may practice whatever religion you want in private.

Where we differ is: we will allow conversions out of Islam. We will allow other religions to preach. So if a Muslim decides to become Christian that would be fine under Secular rules. That is not ethnic cleansing or genocide: it is freedom.

Now I could say this a 100 times more. Next some Islamist will come along and parrot the same line about genocide. 

Ethnic cleansing (to vilde, and SS)

Vilde says: "What a curious inversion of reality. Who has been cleansing who for the past 31 years?"

Vilde, ethnic cleansing is what Germany did to Jews, what Israelis are doing to Palestinians ... and what U.S did in Puerto Rico as late as 1970s by sterilization of Puerto Rican women (e.g., //womenst.library.wisc.edu/bibliogs/puerwom.h... or google Puerto Rico sterilization program ). IRI/Muslim fanatics have killed many during past thirty years in Iran, absolute majority of them not only typical Iranians but also Muslim Iranians (MEKs), or what the SS guy calls Ommaties.

I am sure that if SS guy or alike come to power in Iran they will utilize German, Israeil, and U.S experiences (to the extent they can), but can you show me an example in which IRI has targeted a group of people based on their blood line..... sterilized their women, kicked them out of Iran, ....?

This is a great

article. You hit the nail on the head!May the people choose the right path.

Most of muslim are hypocrite

muslim are the most hypocrite & liers people on earth.

don't belive me !!!!look at all musliem country,travell and live in one muslim country then you will know them better.

I born muslim and practising this mambo jambo,just after the demolition in 1979 and contorol of Islamic mob, I realized what is the real Islam means.

IRI is a real Islamic ruler and khamenhai is like mohammad ebne abdollah.

Vildemose

:), It,s so funny that the Academic so vehemently warn us about an imaginary nationalist regime in future which will commit imaginary genocide but ignores the factual ommatie entity who is currently commiting one. guilty before proven otherwise ha ;:)

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

FYI/آجودانی: حکومت دينی با حقوق بشر سازگار نيست

دکتر ماشاالله آجودانی، نويسنده و کارشناس تاريخ معاصر ايران، و فاطمه حقيقت جو، نماينده پيشين مجلس شورای اسلامی، در برنامه روی خط از شبکه خبری فارسی صدای آمريکا حضور به هم رسانيدند و تحت عنوان دين و سياست در تحولات امروز ايران، به تبادل نظر در مورد مقوله روشنفکری دينی پرداختند.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPzsfaDowjI&feature=related

FYI/Food For Thought: Nader Naderpour On Persian Rennaissance

HISTORY FORUM: Nader Naderpour on Iran's Constitutional Revolution and European Rennaissance (1996):

//iranian.com/main/blog/darius-kadivar/history-forum-nader-naderpour-irans-constitutional-revolution-and-european-renna

Iranian Poet and Intellectual Nader Naderpour draws parallels between the Constitutional Movement and the European Rennaissance and how they inspired democratic thought in their respective societies in their bid to part from the Dark Ages and promote Modernity.

Secularism protects rights of EVERYONE

ماده ۸ 

دولت ایران سکولار است و بدون دین و ایدئولوژی رسمی . دولت ایران مستقل از هر نهاد و نفوذ مذهبی خواهد بود. دولت هیچ دین،  مذهب، ایدئولوژی یا باور شخصی خاصی را تبلیغ نمی کند. جهت حفظ جذایی دین و دولت، قانون اساسی سکولار ایران هر گونه شرکت گروه های و احزاب مذهبی در تمامی نهادهای محلی، منطقه ای، استانی و ملی دولت را اکیدا ممنوع می کند. این شامل هر کسی که مقام یا رهبری مذهبی دارد، روحانیون و غیره هم می شود. مذهب و گروه های مذهبی آزادی عمل صلح آمیز به مذهب شان را خواهند داشت. افراد درون حکومت می توانند ترجیحات مذهبی شخصی داشته باشند اما نمی توانند هیچگونه قوانین و مقررات دین محور اعمال کنند. 

ماده ۹ 

 جمهوری سکولار ایران فاقد مذاهب رسمی کشور است. بنا به ماهیت سکولار در ایران همه با برخورد برابر قرار می گیرند، مستقل از مذهب و فقدان آن. تمام مذاهب درون چارچوب قانون و بدون محدود کردن یا تخطی به حقوق تضمین شده ی فردی و انسانی درون قانون اساسی آزاد به استفاده از حقوق مذهبی خود و عمل بنا به باورهای خود در مسائل شخصی هستند. حقوق فردی و انسانی که توسط قانون اساسی تضمین شده همیشه بر ترجیحات و باورهای مذهبی و ایدئولوژیک اولویت دارد.  

                            visit: www.iransecular.org        

thank you mammad - then, speak up

You see, the problem is that when we criticize Islam for what it has done to countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia..... (you name it), folks like my Mom, you or other good Muslims turn around and say " that is not Islam" or as someone dear to me said "maa mosalmaaneem, oonhaa eslaamee hastand".  Since most of the actions of these Islamists are based on verses of Quran or Fatwas that they obtain from Skaikhs/Ayatollahs, most of the "good" ayatollahs/Shaikhs sit content and just let these Islamists do as they please with impunity.   Nonetheless, this is the Islam that we, as the rest of the world, perceive.

If good Muslims like you, especially ayatollahs, get more vocal about the atrocities committed by these Islamists and tell the world what real Islam is, then it would not get to this point where WE, as the people on the receiving end of these atrocities question the foundation on which these vile acts against humanity are based on; whether the basis is Islam, Mohammad, Ali, Khomeini or the current religious elite running Iran.

I am a secularist.  Take a look at the constitution that David Etebari has put together, or maybe we can site it for you as per how it deals with religion.  But, I can tell you with confidence that the secularists do not want to get rid of religion, but to make religion/Islam a private matter, rather than Shari'a becoming the state law.  So please speak up loudly, condemn these Islamists and join whichever faction that believes in 1. separation of religion and government, and 2. would like full implementation of the charter of human rights, in order to get rid of this plague that has infected Iran for the past 31 years, namely Islamic Republic.

The Pallbearers of Valayet Faghi must Clarify…

Mammad wrote, “By "secular" these people mean a system in which Islam and Muslims are uprooted from Iran. How is that going to happen, aside from forcefully converting millions? Besides, that is not secularism. That is fascism. A true secular, as I said, only cares about religion to the extent that it is separated from government.”

“Separation of religion from government” is a vague statement. The pallbearers of Valayet Faghi (such as Dr. AbdolKarim Soroush) must define it precisely so that we know what they are “leading” us towards.

A secular constitution must not recognize Islam as the official religion of the country. Islamic laws must not govern Iran’s criminal and civil proceedings. No preferential treatment must be given to Islamic institutions and clergy. Militant Islam must be banned in Iran in the same way that the Nazi party was banned in Germany after WWII.

What is Militant Islam? Political groups with Islam as their ideology, take up arms to spread fear and terror in the country, and target non Muslims as infidels and enemies of Islam.

The same set of laws and rules must also apply to any other religion. In other words, there will be no official religion sanctioned by the government. No religious laws must be allowed to seep into the law. No special benefits will be given to religious foundations, figures and icons.

Excellent

با سپاس از نویسنده. جمهوری اسلامی یعنی رژیم اهریمنی دروغ، فساد، جنایت و شکنجه. با دروغ نمیتوان به جنگ اهریمن رفت. آنها که جمهوری اسلامی میخواهند نمیتوانند رهبران قیام ایرانیان برای دموکراسی، آزادی و حکومت سکولار باشند. اگر هم دروغ میگویند که دیگر بدتر. آنچه ما را ۳۱ سال پیش به باد داد دروغمان بود. اگر اصلاح میخواهیم با راستگویی آغاز کنیم.

What a curious inversion of

What a curious inversion of reality. Who has been cleansing who for the past 31 years?

The Sum of our People

Marhoum Kharmagas asked, “Even me Laleh? Does that apply to an inferior, non pure Persian like me too!?”

Yes, even you, Marhoum Kharmagas, especially you. Your presence will add value and substance to the discussion and challenges my mind and beliefs. Regardless of my personal convictions, I have always sought to learn and grow. Without it, I might as well be dead…

I have never considered you or any other countrymen of mine “inferior and non pure Persian.” To the contrary, the blood that boils in your veins is the same as mine:

We are the sum of our people; we are Parsi, Azeri, Balochi, Gilaki, Kurd, Arab, Lur and Torkaman.

اعلاميه اجلاس مسلمانان سکولار Declaration of Secular Muslims

فارسی          English

Dear Mammad

Hope there isn't any confusion here. I do respect you and agree with many of your ideas.

I sometimes agree with some of Laleh's statements and appreciate her logic and her courage but I don't fully agree with her opinion (specially on the matter of armed fighting). I am not a puritan and I am not advocating an Arab-free or Islam-free Iran. In the contrary, I'm the one who always insist on the respect for any religion and also for the Islam followers.

What I had mentioned here, was only about Laleh's opinion on the subject of the Communists, supporting the Green movement! I said she was right on that (vs what benross is "always" trying to say about the "leftist" Iranian)  What I said here, has nothing to do with you and your ideas. In fact I agreed with you.

Hope there would be no misunderstanding anymore. I did not accuse you (or Kharmagas for that matter) of anything. I did (and always did) understand what you mean and specially I approve your definition of the word "secularist" and agree that you are also the secularists, but I must add that I think you have been too harsh and you judged Laleh,  too hastily

Respects,

.

.

MM

Yes and Yes.

But, as I said, these people's problem is the existence of Islam and Muslims in Iran. Their language is Nazis like: Pure Iranian race before Iran was "occupied" by Islam!! Such nonsense! They neither know Iran's actual history, nor why Islam was accepted by Iranians in the first place. Like every other fantasy that they have, they have also created a pre-Islam imaginary Iran that has nothing to do with the actual Iran, and constantly talk nonsense about it.

We are also not defending secularism versus anything else. By "secular" these people mean a system in which Islam and Muslims are uprooted from Iran. How is that going to happen, aside from forcefully converting millions? Besides, that is not secularism. That is fascism. A true secular, as I said, only cares about religion to the extent that it is separated from government. 

But, they are totally silent when one brings this up. Their silence is, in fact, defeaning! 

Mammad

Even me Laleh?

"آرزوی دیدار مجدد را دارم."

?!Does that apply to an inferior, non pure Persian like me too

mammad agha

Nobody is asking you to defend your faith.  We also know a lot of good Muslims.  Our struggle is with the Islamists who beat, rape and murder in the name of Islam, have given a bad name to Islam and have even turned people of Muslim faith to other religions.

It is not hard to define yourself.  Look inside to your core-beliefs:

1. Do you believe in the full implementation of the charter of human rights in Iran? The first step in a civil society.

2.  Do you believe in separation of religion and politics?  Otherwise, fanatics always take over and you have IRI.

If the answer to both questions is yes, then you believe in a secular democratic government, and whatever you faith is, we respect and honor it.

If the answer is no to both, you are in the class of a basiji, IMF and others in IC.

If the answer is yes to #1 and no to #2, then you are in the class of Kadivars and Soroushs who would like to modify #1 in the hands of olamaa, put olamaa in charge of the civil laws (Shari'a) and implement untested ideas on 70 million poor Iranians, again.

 So, where do you stand?

Laleh jan: thank you for

Laleh jan: thank you for this very enlightening blog and exchange of ideas.

 I'm comforted in the fact that in the next  50 years, there will be no sheikh and no Islam left in Iran and for that we should be grateful to IRI and their lackeys.

اگر خاموش بنشینم، گناه است

در جریان تبادل نظر و ابراز عقاید مختلف مربوط به این مقاله، تمامی شرکت کنندگان با حضورشان به من افتخار داده و محبت نموده اند. از حضور تک تک هم میهنان سپاسگزارم و از پشتیبانی دوستان و وقت و توجه جبهه مخالف متشکرم.

آرزوی دیدار مجدد را دارم.

Pure patriots cannot handle the truth!

Let's see:

1. When the pure patriots (PP) - those with a direct line to Cyrus the Great - are told about what mou'badaan - the mullahs of their era - did to people for hundreds of years, and Iran was not a secular heaven on earth before Islam "occupied" Iran, the answer is absolute silence!

2. When the PP are told that the very student leaders and activists (true activists, not those who consider themselves activists by posting hot air on iranian.com), such as Majid Tavakkoli (the courageous guy who gave a speech in front of Daneshkadeh Fanny in Tehran on 16 Azar and is in jail) and the central committee of Tahkim (who are also in jail) are in fact devout Muslims, the answer is absolute silence! Hay, let's use them now, but put them on trial after we come to power (dream on!), because they are Muslims (see below). 

3. When the PP are told the extreme chauvinistic nationalism is borderline racism and leads to fascism - not because I say it, but because social and political scientists have said - they scream!

4. When the PP are asked, the Nazis talked about pure Aryan nation, and you talk about pure Iranian before Islam "occupied" Iran and, so, what is the difference? the answer is absolute silence!

These "taafteh jodaa baafteh haa" and "tohfeh haa" believe that they can be chauvinistic and borderline racist, but also claim to be modern, enlightened, progressive, etc..

5. When the PP list the "crimes" of some of the people who are in jail as just being part of the government with no intelligence, military or judiciary responsibility, and they are asked to say what the actual crimes are, the response is that, "the court will decide!" In their democracy, Muslims are guilty unless proven otherwise!

6. When the PP are told that their problem is not with the IRI, but with Muslims and Islam, they admit it, but still claim to be secular. They do not know the first word about secularism. A true secular's problem is not religion, but that it - any religion - should be separated from government.

7. When the PP are told that your "plans" for change in Iran are sheer fantasy rather than plans, the answer is absolute silence!

Some specific responses:

Vildemose and Suri: Az talaa gashtan pashimaan gashteh-im, marhamat farmoudeh, maa raa mes konid!

SamSam: Fine, but neither did I ask you to evaluate my Muslimness, nor are you qualified to pass judegement. At the same time, there are millions with initials SS. Why did you think I was referring to you?

David ET: You are correct. I now understand what your secularism is all about.

Mehrban: the problem is not me and hazrat-e marhoom, but those pretenders to secularism.

Summary:

1. Regardless of your insults, attacks, labeling, etc., I'll be damned if I do not talk about your hot air nonsense, your attacks on my fate, etc. As my late father taught me at 15: "Either do not claim to believe in something, or be ready to defend it."

2. I do not look over my shoulders because you label me, attack me, etc. I have been in this long before many of you had been born. I post at least a couple of articles every week, have been writing and speaking about such issues, and have been doing it for a long time. We have seen, and continue to see who has more influence and impact, the PP or people like me! 

3. I stand by what I said: If extremist chauvinistic nationalists come to power in Iran - not that it is going to happen in my life time - the result will be a bloodbath, one that the killing fields of Pol Pot will be child's play in comparison! Now, if the PP are not extremist chauvinist nationalists, they have nothing to worry about, or feel hurt!

Mammad

Mehraban jan: Ditto!

Mehraban jan: Ditto!

Marhoom Kharmagas

I am not sure if you are turning this discussion on its head because you are afraid of the logical outcome or I have completely failed to communicate with you.

Let me assure you that I have no interest in following anyone.  Luckily, the political system that I advocate for Iran does not require its citizens to follow but it requires its citizens to choose a representative that would govern the affairs of the State for a designated period of time.  Obviously, that time has not yet come for Iran or the secular Iranians.

My point is/was (again) that if in fact you believe in a secular system in Iran how could other seculars be irrelevant?   

Feel free to follow your Mr. "Hakha" ! (to Mehrban)

Mehraban joon, a monarchist friend of mine several years ago was very fascinated with Mr. Hakha ( //ahura.info/ ) and his travel to Iran (not sure if you remember that, if you don't, ask your friends- minimally you'll laugh a lot). He (my freind) was appalled that I ignored that character! Now, feel free to find your "Hakha" and his preachings relevant, I don't!

Dear Mehrban

After 31 years most of us have learned to see what a persons actions tell us, instead of his/her words.

                           visit: www.iransecular.org        

samsam jan

I neither consider you an Iranian nor a true Muslim. Your likes are a disgrace to Iran & even more of a disgrace to true concept of Islam, a non-pagan religion & a private religion that you with your political charlatinism version of Shia have given a tragic bad fate to & you shall and will be judged by your creator for corrupting his divine message on earth.

Eloquently put...Some of these people think they can even fool God. Their only worries is loss of power, status, and privilege.

See Marhoom jaan

David is not my spiritual leader.  David is a concerned and passionate compatriot whose honest efforts I respect.  How could you find him (as an example) irrelevant if he like many others is looking for exactly what you are looking for (a secular) Iran.   We are all relevant. 

PS. I hope you know that my discussion is not about David but it is about the unity of Seculars in general.

Ok Mehrban

Ok Mehrban, I changed that adjective to a milder form which is incidentally derived from your name! Regarding your spiritual leader ("Iranian" version of Christopher Hitchens), right now I find him and his document irrelevant, and had only an indirect reference to him only in one comment.