IDEAS

Amir Jan: thank you. I liked

Amir Jan: thank you. I liked your cancer-treatment  paradigm analogy. Chemo is very painful and makes you deathly ill but it also saves the patient.

Vildemose

The IRI and regime insiders control most major factories and put regime informants and enforcers in those factories. Independent-minded union leaders have been imprisoned when they have tried to obtain better pay and working conditions. The regime has learned from the "mistakes" of the Pahlavi regime and is determined not to allow a repeat of the tactics which worked against the Shah's government.

Why don't we see more

Why don't we see more general strikes in Iran? Is it because of abject poverty of the workers??

Mammad: An oncologic paradigm for IRI

Dear Mammad, when starting a course of treatment for cancer, the first step for an oncologist should be to define what the goals of therapy are. They are either curative or palliative. Palliative treatments are designed to provide symptom relief for the patient and should not cause undue side effects. Curative treatments, on the other hand, are meant to give the patient a reasonable chance at cure. Curative treatments require radical or definitive modalities (radical is an oncologic term), i.e. surgery, radiotherapy, and chemotherapy. These treatments are not easy for the patient, but they are the only means proven to give him/her some opportunity for cure. I think the time for herbal remedies, homeopathy, laying on off hands, vitamins, and other such "alternative" approaches to the cancer that is the IRI have passed. In my opinion, the only chance to effect fundamental change in Iran is through regime change. This will require radical treatments that deprive the regime of funds and that deprive it of the means of repression. Could these means prove painful for Iranians? Quite possibly, yes. But I think they are the only chance of eradicating this cancerous regime. Otherwise, the current resistance to the regime will likely prove courageous, heroic, and well-intentioned, but ultimately futile, until and unless, the regime reaches a "crisis" point, e.g. with its oil reserves starting to run dry (but the latter is likely decades away). 

This comment sums up what we are up against:

""The clerics bring their rifles to prayer, leaders strut around in military fatigues, and the tactics of control are those of an 'occupying' army. And, maybe that's it - Iran has been occupied by a self-styled military elite, drawn from its own people, who will hold on to power and privilege at any cost.""

Intellectual charlatanism

 As being displayed here, with Ali Shariati style charlatanism dished out as intellectualism the Islamists are doomed to fail yet again in their new and improved version of their Islamist Rapist Republic.

The only pity is they are going to delay the eventual emancipation of Iran and Iranians from their barbaric dogma and in the process have a lot more Iranian blood on their hands.

What they offer to force their Rapist brethrens to rape, maim, torture and murder fewer Iranian men, woman and children is “at some point if necessary, selective strikes “. If necessary and at some point indeed.

Before they get their hands on nuke and impose yet more devastation on Iran and Iranians they have to be stopped.

In the meantime, we have a military junta merger with the rights

//www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2010/02/the-death-of-the-republic.html

Amir

I already said how I believe it should be achieved, where I asked the four questions below.

And, if this is unrealistic to you, then the idealism of Laleh is way way way unrealistic.

The difference between people like me and Laleh, David ET and others is that, (i) I have been in this for nearly 4 decades; (ii) I know what has happened in great detail; (iii) I follow everything, by looking at and reading Kayhan and other hardline publication everyday, and (iv) I know all the players and where they come from. You need such knowledge to get a dose of realism.

Several years ago I asked Shirin Ebadi what newspaper she reads every day in Iran. She said Kayhan! Because it gives her an indication of where things will be going in the following days and weeks. That is realism at its best.

Mammad

David ET

I did not think you and your commrades have amnesia.

I just hope that you and your commrades have a bit of realisam.

It is great to start a website, to draft an interim constitution, and scream about our ideals.

But, at the end of the day, as I said to Laleh in my last response, you must confront the Sepaah/clerical rule that is armed to the teeth, ideologically committed, controls all assets of the nation, and has a social base of support, albeit a narrow one. This is not an opposition in the mold of what we see in the threads of iranian.com! It is real and very powerful.

So, baa halvaa halvaa goftan dahaan-e maa shirin nemisheh! We need to set aside idealism and illusion. You have to develop effective ways of confronting the powerful opposition.

At the end, let me ask: list the names of your leaders. Do not give me the Laleh's response, the "20 years old!" or Nazanin Afshar Jam (or whatever the name of that beauty is), or Reza Pahlavi. None should apply! 

Thank you for a respectful debate. This ends my responses to you.

Mammad

Here on this thread we have

Here on this thread we have the struggle between the 'idealists' and 'pragmatist'. Both are necessary ingredients for a progressive and democratically viable society. One keeps the other in check.

We need to try different methods or combination of different strategies to achieve our goal of democratizing Iran. However, if our ultimate goal is to keep the Islamic Republic and its curretn and former cronies intact then the seculars  need to recognize that and plan accordingly. There is no sense in feuding about who is and who is not the leader of a 'fake democractic' movement.

Mammad, with all due respect, I think you are being unrealistic

I will repeat the same thing I said in my previous post: how would these goals be achieved "peacefully" and without any external pressure?

That is better, but falls short

I am happy that, unlike your original "plan," you now offer something that is a little more concrete. But, it is still unrealistic in many ways.

First of all, you must be kidding if you believe that the 20 years olds out on street - your candidates for leadership - can be our "leader." Come on, get realistic. A national movement in a nation 1/5 of the US with 75 million people, in the most turbulent area of the world, led by 20 years olds? Even they themselves do not have such claims. But, you do?

Courageous university students, such as Majid Tavakkoli (who is, BTW, a devout Muslim), and the leadership of Office for Consolidation of Unity (Tahkim-e Vahdat), the most important university student organization (all of whom, also practicing Muslims, are in jail, BTW), do not have your claim to leadership, but you from half around the world do?

And, when some of the same students are released from jail, who do they go to see first? Mousavi, Karroubi, and Khatami. Believe in what you want, but you cannot change the hard facts on the ground.

Idealism is great when we talk about our dreams in dinner parties, or in intellectual discussions. But, at the end of the day, you must deal with the Sepaah/clerical rule that is armed to the teeth, ideologically committed, controls all major assets of the nation, and does have a social base of support, albeit a narrow one. 

And look at what happened in Ukraine and Georgia, where supposedly the 20 years olds ran the "revolution." There is a backlash in Ukraine now due to the utter incompetence of that group, and in Georgia the political system has become dictatorial again. Where it was relatively successful, Poland and the Czech Republic, there was experienced leadership in place, men and women in their forties and fifties. We Iranians are "taafteh jodaa baafteh?"

And what you say about Mousavi's immunity is so far fetched. You are imagining things again. If powerful mullahs are protecting him, as you claim, why do the same mullahs not talk some sense into Ayatollah Khamenei to make the system just a bit better (not much!), if they are so powerful?

Many of the hardliners, even some of the worst and bloodthirsty ones, such as the Basij commander Hossein Taeb, have warned that the arrest of Mousavi will create a huge backlash among the population, and will make him an even more popular leader, and you claim that he is protected by powerful mullahs?

I do not have any particular preference for Mir Hossein or anyone else. As I have said many many times, we do not have "aghd-e okhovvat" (brotherhood union) with anybody. But, a national movement needs foot soldiers and, to confront a powerful opposition, it needs experienced leadership.

It was Mousavi that prevented a possible huge bloodshed right after the counter-demonstrations on Wednesday December 30. You seem to be have been sleeping at that time, but the nation was in deep anxiety because everybody thought that the hardliners will use the counter-demonstrations to start large-scale arrests and bloodshed.

But, on January 1, Mousavi issued his Statement 17 that calmed the movement and the nation, and increased the fissures among the hardliners and the conservatives. They again began arguing among themselves about what to do, rather than thinking of the arrests and bloodshed. That is experienced leadership.

As for your organization, grassroot is not enough. Grassroot provides the foot soldiers. But, they need experienced organizers that know every nook and cranny of the system. That is why I said the organization must be at two levels. And that already exists, but must be put into better use. 

For example, Islamic Iran Participation Front, the largest and most important political group in Iran, has been at the forefront of protests, issuing strong statements, revealing secret information, etc, despite the fact that its top leadership, Dr. Mohsen Mirdamadi, Mostafa Tajzadeh, Dr. Saeed Hajjarian, Shahaboddin Tabatabaei, Azar Mansouri, etc., have been in jail.

Same for Islamic Mojahedin Organization, despite the fact that the top leadership - Behzad Nabavi, Fayzollah Arabsorkhi, Mohsen Aminzadeh, Mostafa Tajzadeh, Abolfazl Ghadiyani, etc. - have been in jail.

Same for Tahkim, and Advaar-e Tahkim (the graduates of Tahkim). They have been so effective that Kayhan screamed a while ago, "how do they do this, when their leaders are in jail?" 

So, why can they do it, despite losing the top leadership? Because of the experience that they have accumulated for 30 years. No matter how much enthusiasm and idealism you have, you can never replace experience with them.

And how are you going to protect your "assets?" That again needs experienced leadership, experienced organization, and experienced and tough spokesmen that can reveal the depth of the atrocities. So, we always come back to the same thing.

We all have spent a considerable time debating this. I have made my points. Once again, I mean no disrespect toward anybody, even those who insulted me. The goal is to have a good debate and exchange of the ideas. So, now, it is time to move on.

Thank you.

Mammad

Marhoom Kharmagas

You are right in your last comment.  I am deeply sorry about all the tragic losses that Iran has sufferred under this regime of course Mammad's too.  It has been a pathetic crazy nasty cruel and for the most part useless regime for the last thirty years.  I for one do not want to follow its its old adage.  

Do you really believe that among the 70 million Iranians in Iran and the 3million or so outside it is only these handful of failed thinkers (?) that we have to keep going back to for leadership?  If I am not mistaken even Mousavi in one of his speeches said that it was the people that were leading him and not the other way around.

Mammad: We don't have amnesia!

You and people who think like you sometimes make me wonder if you ever learn something from past experiences or if not if are honest with yourself or others. 

You make it sound like we have not been down the path of a so called reformist president/prime minister before!! As if this is the first time we have heard of this option!!!!

Do I really have to remind you of:

Bazargan

Bani Sadr

Mousavi (himself)

Khatami

or that mullah who "eats bread at the price of the day": Rafsanjani?!!

Look! We have heard these promises of a better and kinder  Islamic Republic sooooo many times and every time it has ended right where it started or even worse.

Don't you get it? or do you think Iranians have Amnesia?!! :

In Khaneh Az paaybast Viraan Ast

visit: www.iransecular.org      

با تشکر

برد این مقاله بخاطر مسکوت گذاشتن دسیسهٔ کمونیست‌ها محدود می‌شود.

تنها نواندیشان مذهبی نیستند که تلاش دارند در لفاف پدیدهٔ «خودی‌ها» و «غیر خودی‌ها» نقش ایفا کنند. اصولاً چنین پدیده‌ای ابداً مشروعیت و موجهیت نمی‌یافت اگر حزب توده و اکثریتی‌ها با مشروعیت بخشیدن به «توهم ضد امپریالیستی» تلاش نمی‌کردند که خود را به جای «خودی‌ها» جا بزنند.

اگر توجه کرده باشی، بوی تعفن این «توهم ضد امپریالیستی» تنها به ادبیات اسلام سیاسی محدود نشده و نمی‌توانست محدود شود چرا که اسلام سیاسی، بدون استفاده از دکترین کمونیستی، هرگز قادر نمی‌شد به تفکرات ضد مدرنیت و ارتجاعی خود رنگ «روشنفکرانه» بزند. گواه آن هم درهمین سایت آشکار است که ما شبانه روز با این تعفن و توهم ضد امپریالیستی مواجه هستیم. 

Mammad, how do you intend to achieve these goals?

Do you think that IRI's leadership for the past 31 years are either of the inclination or adhere to a political philosophy which would allow such concessions? Why would they ever make such concessions? They control Iran's economy in the manner of a metastasized cancer. They have oil revenues continuously coming in, and I assume that you oppose any attempts to cut off or reduce those revenues? They do not face any significant armed internal opposition. The "opposition" leaders have served as Prime Minster or President from 1981-2005. They oppose any efforts to change the "nezam". "Peaceful" means and singing kumbaya don't go anywhere with the earthly representative of the Twelfth Imam. With such feeble "opposition", Khamenei and his gang have no reason to give one inch, and they won't. It is more realistic to imagine that Iran will democratize in the blink of an eye than that the IRI is reformable. The Shah's regime was a reformable dictatorship; in 31 years, IRI has not shown the least capacity to reform in any fundamental sense. Just think: the very notion that even obligatory hejab could be lifted is literally inconceivable! And you expect Khameini and his gang (or Khomeini before him) to adopt democratizing measures? In my own opinion, in that case then Iranians shouldn't even bother. Either accept the dictatorship in all its many glories, leave the country, escape through opium or heroin or work to overthrow the regime--and the latter cannot come in the foreseeable future unless the oil revenues of the regime are cut off. The Iranian economy is a shambles, but as long as the Praetorian Guard and their retainers are kept fed, this can go on for years to come.

Mousavi: Incompetent, Helpless, or Criminal?

Mammad wrote, “Clearly, if Mir Hossein has also committed crimes, some day he will have to respond. “

Mir Hossein Mousavi should have responded to these allegations during his campaign for the presidency. He avoided the question like the plague. Only in one occasion, he dismissed the question annoyingly by offering this: A prime minister is the head of the Executive branch of the government and is responsible only for the actions of that branch. He had no control or influence over the judicial branch of the government.

Let’s for a moment give the guy the benefit of the doubt although there is evidence to the contrary. His explanation only proves his sheer incompetence and absolute helplessness. Is this a person who can stand up to IRI thugs, strip them of their power and put them on trial for their crimes?

Davit ET

You did not read what I said carefully. I said the leader AT THIS STAGE is Mir Hossein.

As much as I would like to believe it, I do not believe that the ultimate goal as I outlined will be achieved in the next few years. That is why, in my opinion, the goals must be realistic and achievable. Otherwise, we will be fantasizing.

Once the short and intermediate goals are achieved, the process itself will give rise to new experienced leaders. By then Mir Hossein will be too old anyway. He is 67 years old. He has said numerous times that he is not interested in politics, and he decided to run only when he felt that the nation is in danger. 

Remember that the short and intermediate goals are, (i) release of all political prisoners; (ii) completely free elections; (ii) completely free press; (iv) cutting off the hands of Sepaah from running the country; (v) freedom for political groups; (vi) freedom of gathering; (vii) freedom for establishment of private TV and radio; (viii) putting on trial all those who committed crimes; (ix) true supervision and monitoring of the government by the free-elected Majles, and (x) directly electing every important official with term limits.

Once these are achieved, we will be there 90% of the distance. But, these will take time. 

Mammad

Dear Rostam

Thank you. Well said! : //iransecular.blog.com/2010/02/20/to-whom-it-may-concern/

Mammad

You wrote: "and the long-term goal is to eliminate velaayat-e faghih and get religion out of government" and also consider Mousavi as the leader. Show me one proof that Mousavi is for a secular system!

In fact he openly has said that he supports Islamic Republic Constitution (which also includes Velayat Faghih).

Aren't you reflecting your own wishes on a man who has always supported and promoted Islamic Republic and still is?

 visit: www.iransecular.org       شعار ملت ما، دین از سیاست جدا 

Thank you Mammad for the response

so, a progressive Melli Mazhabi is a practicing moslem who is a secular politically (believes in the separation of church and state).  So a progressive melli mazhabi is a secular like any other secular, am I right?

What I do not understand is what is all the fuss and disagreement between the seculars be it if they are practicing moslems or not.  Why are we not united.  Is it just a question of loyalty to one perceived leader (Mousavi) or another.  

Why do the PMM ridicule the efforts of other seculars.  Why are some people put on a list and mocked as secular emricaees.  Isn't there a huge need for all sorts of coalitions to get rid of the IRR beast?  Okay we are nowhere without the reformists in Iran but honestly we are not that far with them either. Without a large secular coalition with a clear vision of taking religion out of the government in Iran where will we end up?  In another failed version of IR that I think most of us do not want?

Laleh and I have our differences but she raises excellent points

I don't always see eye to eye with Ms. Gillani but this is a great blog and an interesting comment thread, also very informative.  I agree with many points that Laleh has such as where she writes in her last comment:"The short term goal is to protect our human assets and expand our numbers while fighting the regime. Our slogans will be heard in every demonstration, our presence will be felt in the streets of Iran, and our voices will be raised on the internet. The intermediate goal is to unite all political groups devoted to secular democracy and to define our vision of tomorrow clearly and precisely. The long term goal is the establishment of a secular democratic government in Iran."

Laleh is absolutely correct about emphasizing that our slogans will be heard.  Seculars in Iran cannot continue going along with "ya Hossein Mir Hossein" and "Allaho Akbar" and thinking that this will get them to a secular government. 

Four Questions & Answers

1. Who is the leader of the movement? The political activists operating in Iran are.

Does it really bother you so much that there is not a father-figure at top of the ticket? Right now, anyone rising to that position will be fast eliminated by IRI. Besides, our candidates won’t pass the litmus test in order to qualify for running in one of the mullahs’ elections. No one has Mousavi’s Islamic qualifications and immunity under current conditions. Mousavi is supported by powerful mullahs. Should any harm come to Mousavi, their wrath will destabilize the regime even further.

2. What is the organization? Similar to yours, the organization is the grassroots. Iranians from all walks of life are devoted to ending the reign of terror and bringing about fundamental changes to our country. There are secularists not only amongst Iran’s political groups and activists but also amongst ordinary people. Thanks to thirty years of religious rule, the majority of Iranians have rejected the brainchild of Iran’s Muslim intellectuals, the Islamic Republic of Iran.

3. What is the plan? The plan is to organize the base, to protect our resources and assets, to inform the masses, to expose the reformists’ true agenda, and to oppose the regime by any and all means.

4. What are the short, intermediate, and long-term goals? The short term goal is to protect our human assets and expand our numbers while fighting the regime. Our slogans will be heard in every demonstration, our presence will be felt in the streets of Iran, and our voices will be raised on the internet. The intermediate goal is to unite all political groups devoted to secular democracy and to define our vision of tomorrow clearly and precisely. The long term goal is the establishment of a secular democratic government in Iran.

Rostam

Fine, I am whom you say I am. I have been labeled everything, good and bad! What is one more label?

But, let this hot air ask you the same question that I asked Laleh:

1. Who is the leader of the movement?

2. What is the organization?

3. What is the plan?

4. What are the short, intermediate, and long-term goals?

I do not want generic answers and slogans.

Hot airs like me have ready answers to the four questions, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. For hot airs like me, the leader at this point is Mir Hossein; the organization is at two levels; grassroot, and centrists and leftists groups; the plan is to continue the protest with better organization and, at some point if necessary, selective strikes. The short-term goal is what Mousavi demanded in his Statement 17; the intermediate goals are what he said in his Statement 13, and the long-term goal is to eliminate velaayat-e faghih and get religion out of government. With the first two achieved, the 3rd will be eminently possible.

And, I hold my heads high. I have done nothing to be ashamed of. 

Mammad

Who said Hoveida was responsible for everything?

Only the right-wing reactionaries, who cutoff the phone lines in order to prevent Bazargan and his commarade from stopping them to execute Hoveida, believed so.

People like Bazargan wanted fair and open trials for the Shah's regime high officials, and were opposed to any execution in the first place. They wanted that kind of trial, in order to present people like Hoveida the opportunity to defend and, if true, exonerate themselves, as well as showing that they are different from the past. But, they did not have the power.

I have never thought that Hoveida was responsible for everything. In fact, I believe he was responsible for very little, as he only carried out the Shah's orders.

Clearly, if Mir Hossein has also committed crimes, some day he will have to respond.

So, once again, you put everybody in one basket. But, as I explained to David ET, that is against political science, social science, and Iran's contemporary history.

Mammad

مهربان عزیز

از لطف و محبت شما ممنونم.

یادم میاید که در جریان انتخابات، شما سئوال به جایی از اصلاح طلبان کردید: اگر هویدا مسئول تمامی جنایات ساواک در دوران نخست وزیریش بود، چرا میرحسین موسوی چنان مسئولیتی را به دوش ندارد؟

کسی از جناح اصلاح طلبان هرگز به سئوال پسندیده شما جواب منطقی نداده است...

Flawed Ideologies

Mammad wrote, “The struggle for democracy is only in its infancy? Have you ever read Iran's history? There has been a 150 years of struggle for democracy, but to you it is in its infancy? I guess, for you the clock began last spring!”

The struggle for democracy in our country is indeed in its infancy. As long as the dream isn’t materialized, no one can claim otherwise. Today, we have without a doubt a better understanding of what democracy is and what it entails. Nonetheless, the political maturity of our activists and politicians is still lacking essential elements. Flawed ideologies such as Islam and communism have contributed to slow down our growth.

I must, however, agree with you that Iran’s rich history must be studied and examined thoroughly in order to fully grasp what and who we were before Islam was interjected into our lives.

in case you didn't know (to Mehrban)

You seem to be unaware of the fact that Mammad has lost very close relatives to this regime too. That does not mean you and I should follow his ideas of how to go about changing the regime, does it?

Hey Mammad you need to back off

Laleh has lost young loved ones to this regime while your erudite Mousavi was prime minister.  I don't care what kind of a building Mousavi can design or that his wife has enjoyed a certain noteriaty by becoming Zahra rahnavard from Zohreh Kazemi.   Honestly, I did not even mind the guy during the debate prior to the last elections.  But give me a break he was prime minister while thousands of Iranian teens went to the gallows virgin girls were raped so they don't go to heaven with the orders of the "Imam" khomeini still the beloved of Mousavi and Rahnavard.  The least you can do is be respectful.  After murdering their children, agents of IRR came to ask for money before they would deliver the bodies of the children to their families.   Wake up Mammad, these people are killers, most of us get sick reading about the edams on IC your beloved Mousavi was prime minister at the time for god's sake.  I be dammed if I ever read the history of IRR what I already know of it is nauseating.  You know it too.

Mammad

If there is one person who is full of hot air is you.

For more than 30 years your ideology has failed, your ways have failed, your plans have failed, your attempts to moderate the regime has failed, your revolution has failed, your attempts to undo the damages that you yourselves had caused has failed, your human rights records has failed, your attempts to make Iran a regional power has failed, your political Islam has failed, your attempts to reform the regime have failed, your foreign policy has failed, your Islamic economy has failed...

And after all these failures and all this time and all the accumulated national losses, you want the people of Iran to give you and your reformists another chance, another 30 years, another long period of anxiety, misery and failure. As though we are your laboratory rats on which you can retry your refined "treatments" and ideologies, until they work better.

Go away. Leave Iran alone. Iran has many sons and daughters that are more fit, more brilliant, more intelligent and more talented to take Iran to the levels that it belongs to. Go away. You have sucked enough ideological nourishment out of this noble country. Now, just go. Remove your sting from our tired bodies and go feed elsewhere.

Go away with your head down and in shame.