STORY

آذرین عزیز - تعارف که کیلومتر شمار نداره!

شما تعارفات بنده رو زیاد جدی نگیرید.

لپ کلام اونکه از سبک و شجاعت این خانم خوشم اومد و خواستم حمایت کنم ... بقیه هم "اغراق شاعرانه" است!

Dear Shazdeh,

I didn't know that you were representing all "mard ahmagh Irani" on Iranian.com...:-) (Just kidding!) 

But kidding aside, why should you apologize for those who haven't liked this story? It doesn't make any sense! Everyone should be entitled to his/her own opinion!

Also, I think each IC writer, especially each good IC writer, should learn to grow a thick skin and to consider and respect all kind of feedback (positive or negative) and each IC reader should be able to praise or criticize a work and no IC reader should apologize for other people's opinion or stupidity!

This story has worked better than other!

Even I like your privious story more than this new one but it seems that this one has more reader and comment than others. I wish it brings you more energy to write more and more.

بسیار زیبا، خودمانی، خواندنی و دلپذیر - آفرین بر فاطمه زارعی

قطعه‌‌ شما غیر عادی است، برای همین مورد بحث قرار گرفته. از حماقت، تنگ نظری و اشتباه ما بگذرید. خیلی‌‌ها بدون حساب و دقت، نقد منفی‌ کرده اند، که من به عنوان یک مرد احمق ایرانی‌ و به نمایندگی‌ همگی‌، پوزش میخواهم.

داستان اینجاست که این سایت اینترنتی‌ با کارهایی مشابه پورنوگرافی سر زبان‌ها افتاد. بعضی‌ کارهای خوب هم بود، ولی‌ جنجالی‌ترین و پر خواننده‌ترین "مقالات" صفحه اول، کاملا مشابه و حتی شاید ترجمه داستان‌های صد تا یک غاز مجلات و سایت‌های پورنوگرافیک انگلیسی بودند. به نام "نویسندگان" زن هم منتشر میشدند، که برای مردان ایرانی‌ بسیار شهوت بر انگیز بود.

عده ای، منجمله خود من، داد و هوار کردیم که آن کثافت کاری‌ها بر صفحه اول چکار میکنند. ظاهرا، عکس العمل دوستان یک حرکت غریزی و نا خود آگاه، به خاطر آن پیشینه است. یا لااقل، بنده امیدوارم که شما به آن حساب بگذارید، و از این صحبت‌های منفی‌، دلشکسته و خسته نشوید. من بجز خواندن و نوشتن تفریح دیگری ندارم، و به لحاظ تجربه از هر دو جانب، عرض می‌‌کنم که قدر قلم و استعداد خود را بدانید‌ که دست اول است و بسیار زیبا.

در پناه خدا باشید.

Reads like Freud's "penis envy"! Talking about Fart is not ART!

       Absolute nonsense! Talking about genitals in public is not quite definition of courage or creativity! Absolute garbage.

     It is amazing how any garbage no matter how rotten has some buyers and admirers!!

تک گویی روان

داستان یک نوع تک گویی یا مونولوگ است.

در تک گویی عموما  تلاش می گردد تا جریان سیال و روان تفکر آدمی باز شود و روی کاغذ بیاید. این تکنیک از پدیده های ادبی قرن بیستم است. در اینجا زمان به صورت خطی رعایت نمیشود بلکه همان طور که در ذهنیت راوی جریان دارد منعکس می گردد.

در جریان سیال ذهن از آنجایی که راوی مکنونات ذهنی خود را بیان می کند ممکن است کلمات به ظاهر زشت و نامناسب نیز بر روی کاغذ بیاید که اشکالی ندارد، در نوشتۀ بزرگان غربی این سبک نیز همین امر دیده می شود.

نوشتۀ خانم زارعی کلمات چندی که نامناسب باشد در بر ندارد و جریان جیش کردن هم، بیان آن هیچ اشکالی ندارد چون در ادبیات مدرن ذهنیات راوی بدون هیچ ممناعتی باید بیان شود مثل جلسات روانکاوی که از سوژه درخواست می شود تا چشمان  خود را ببندد و به موضوعی فکر کند و هر چه به ذهنش می آید بیان نماید.

در داستانهای روانشناختی و ذهنی "حادثه" بر خلاف داستانهای رئالیستی بیشتر در ذهنیت راوی اتفاق می افتد تا در دنیای خارج.

همچنین در این داستانها نفس حوادث خارجی اهمیت کمتری دارند نسبت به قضاوتها و گرایشهای راوی نسبت به این حوادث مثلا عمل جیش کردن در وان حمام یا گوزیدن (یانام بردن آلات تناسلی) به تنهایی ملاک نیست بلکه اثرات، کنشها و علل روانی آن در ذهنیت راوی مورد نظر است.

کار قوی و خوبی بود!

متاع کفر و دین بی مشتری نیست

I do not dispute that any writing does appeal to a group of people who can link to that and be inspired by it, and this is no exception. One of the people who have been inspired by this story has joined the IC almost 3 years ago and has now left his/her first comment. So much has happened in those three years, there has been almost a revolution in Iran and this person did not feel the urge to leave a single comment but now has been excited by the fart under the duvet. Each writing is targeted at a group with certain interests and value system.

Next. Who said all taboos are bad and why should we celebrate the breaking of all taboos. You can shit right in the middle of the room, just on the flower at the centre of the carpet, but you don't do it. You can invite your friends to your house and keep farting whilst serving them tea, but you don't do that either. These positive taboos are known as etiquette. Likewise there are etiquettes for writing that are almost expected of a serious writer. Now I don't say that a writer should not use the words gooz, goh, shash, kir, kos or anything else. I am totally against any self censorship, but these should be used for a purpose and to good effect, not just for the sake of it. We had another person breaking taboos by writing porn here (if I remember right, she was called Mehrnaz Samii or something similar). Anyone knows what happened to her?

These days in different comments I have come across the name of some brilliant writers such as Bahram Sadeghi and Nader Ibrahimi. We have a hell of a lot more of these gems. We have outstanding female writers, Mahshid Amirshahi, Moniro Ravanipoor, Shahrnoush Parsipour,... and many more. Reading from these writers, one appreciates how rich and fulfilling literature can be and that makes us better judges of literary works. There is no reason that why the name of Fatemeh Zarei should not be in that list but it won't be for this type of work.

They say do not compare the writer to the best examples. Why? Is it a debate or a compliment challenge? What service will I do to the writer if I compare her to a poor or medioca example? It's like comparing a graduate to a fifth grade student and then pat him on the shoulder for knowing more. The yardsticks are those who have managed to inspire the greatest number of readers with their work, not anyone who can tap words out of a keyboard.

They say, oh, you were so restricted in Iran so now practice your freedom and write what you wish. I am not against people writing what they wish, but how good is that reasoning? You can not publish pornographic pictures in Iran, so now that you are in the West set up your own porn publishing company. Restrictions in Iran has dragged our music to the low of LA but we should not allow our literature to sink this low.  Thankfully our literature is doing better and still presents writers such as Abbas Maroufi, Taghi Modaresi and Shams Langroudi to the world. We are not short of good or daring writers who show real courage.

I would like to thank Fatemeh for opening this debate that has allowed us to discuss a very important issue.

Dear Fatemeh - two memories & a comment

Your story reminded me of two memories from the time passed. 

1. An overnight family guest once came out of the bathroom and told us that one of the tooth brushes in the bathroom was too hard on his teeth.  Nonetheless, ALL tooth brushes were placed in a safe place from then on when we had guests.

2. A long time ago, a friend, who happened to be a girl, confessed to us that one of her favorite rituals with her intimate friends was to take "golden showers" together.  Hopefully, I will not have to explain what a golden shower is!

PS, while some here think that your writings are intimately gross, and probably true, comparatively speaking, but remember that if folks like you keep breaking social/religious taboos in Iran, we may be better off.  How about writing/tackling the hypocritical Iranians who drink alcohol and perform illegal sex acts, but expect everyone else to be pious?

This is a man's fantasy.

The peeing part is most likely a man's fantasy in which the man may have asked it but didn't get it in reality.  I'm not saying the author is a man behind keyboard or this isn't her writing but I believe it to be a man's fantasy not a woman's.

JJJ calls this Taste, courage & creativity.  Why?  Because a woman wrote it.  If a man had written the exact same piece, don't you think he'd have called it Vulgar, profane & cheap?  i.e., if instead of a woman asking if she can hold it, the man had asked the woman to hold it.

Those of you who go along with JJJ the Publisher and praise, would you have given the same compliments if a man had written it?

As for my own view, I liked it. 

Everything is sacred

Literary language

Well, I always have this "childish hope" that every new story I read (anywhere, even on Iranian.com) could be the next literary gem that would blow my mind away.

But unfortunately, for me, this story just turned on my stomach from the beginning! Maybe the middle part had some merit as Ari pointed out, but I was already stuck in those first lines...:-)

Of course, sometimes, I realize that I’ve set my expectations too high, but it’s not something that I’d like to change. I will always look for sublime in a work of art, and especially in any form and shape of literature.  The literary language - as Maurice Blanchot, my favorite literary theorists, defines -- is different from the everyday language: “A language, one which no one speaks;  a language that is, which issues from its own absence, the way the image emerges on the absence of the thing; a language addressing itself to the shadows of events as well, not to their reality, and this because of the fact that the words which express them are, not signs, but images, images of words, and words where things turn into images.”

So in this context, I cannot consider the language of this story as literary. Nothing is wrong with the use of everyday language in a literary work, as long as it evokes something that would go beyond the ordinary.

Breaking a taboo, as a few of my friends have mentioned here, does not always turn into art!! Talking dirty or the extreme use of insults or private parts or any confessional kind of writing with description about one’s body functions or the generous use of toilet-humor…is not necessarily art. Some particular sexual ritual, practiced by some particular kind of pervert is not art either.

The use of toilet-language as a vehicle to express emotions is nothing new, witty or creative. You just need to google “golden shower” to find millions of pages of porn-lit. using this exact ritual/fetish (there are even videos!) Is porn-lit. witty? Yes, I'd say. But is it also memorable? Not really. It mostly has one particular use, which is not celebral.

So I’m sorry! I'm not convinced! And again, in my humble opinion, this story is not literary, but commercial…as it is popoular and generates lots of clicks for IC!

Ms Zarei

I have been enjoying all your stories in silence, but I feel compeled to leave a comment now.

I really liked this piece for all the reasons already mentioned. In general, I love your tone, its lightness, ease, and unpretentiousness. Look forward to reading more of your work. Happy writing!

And Ari, I agree with you, the sentence you quoted grabbed my attention, too. Brilliant!

PS: and first time ever, I disagree with Divaneh on anything. :)

شکستن سکوت، هنر است

اونم با صادقیت، صمیمیت و بی‌ تعارفی  فاطمه زارعی 

 من ممکنه تمام تجربه‌هات رو نکرده باشم. ولی‌ هنوز از نوشتنت خیلی‌ کیف می‌کنم.

ضمنا اگر کسی‌ فکر نمیکنه این اثر هنری نیست، پس چی‌ هنری هست؟ از کامنت مرد مطلقه خوشم اومد. 

Henry Miller says:

“Men [humans] are not suffering from the lack of good literature, good art, good theatre, good music, but from that which has made it impossible for these to become manifest.”  Thank God, or the Big Bang, that ‘iranian.com’ has provided a venue for literature and art to manifest itself right in front of our eyes.

“In short, they [humans] are suffering from the silent shameful conspiracy (the more shameful since it is unacknowledged) which has bound them together as enemies of art and artists.”  This part reminds me of the mullahs, except they are vocal not silent, who have bounded together as enemies of arts and artists.

“Whenever a taboo is broken, something good happens, something vitalizing.”  Maybe by taboo he means something like fart, urinating in the shower, or sharing a toothbrush.

“Taboos after all are only hangovers, the product of diseased minds, you might say, of fearsome people who hadn't the courage to live and who under the guise of morality and religion have imposed these things upon us.”  Say that again, “under the guise of morality and religion have imposed these things [taboos] upon us!

The grammar and the syntax of this piece are perfect, it is not a disjointed story, the story is believable, and there is consistency in the character.  It is a great short story.  I enjoyed reading this article tremendously.  It is original, funny, entertaining, breaks taboos, and it is literary; after all literature literary means "acquaintance with letters".  I’d say the writer of this article knows her letters well.

You Rocked, once again

I totally agree with Comrade and JJ.

khanoom e Zarei, Just like what comrade said, I hope you don't mind those people who do not get your creativity and brilliant story, and do NOT change your style. If you ever write a book I'll try to be in the line first to buy 20 copies with no hesitation.

خیلی‌ خوب بود

به این خاطر خوندن این مطلب برام جالب بود که وارد شدن به حریم خصوصی و مشغولیات ذهنی‌ مربوط به اون رو از دریچه تخیلات یک زن میدیدم، بدون اینکه لزوما جنبه شهوانی داشته باشه. کنجکاوی‌های ارضا نشده تو این نوشته موج میزد که از دریچه یک ذهن غیر متعارف به تصویر کشیده شده بود و خیلی‌ سنت شکنانه بود و به همین خاطر باعث تقدیر.

بعضاً جنبه چندش آور تصور صحنه‌ها که میتونه واقعیات سانسور شده زندگی‌ خیلی‌ها باشه، در مقابل صداقت بیان اونها ناچیز و بی‌ اثر بود. بعضی‌ رفتارهای بی‌ شیله پیله و خودمونی، منعکس کننده صمیمیت بی‌ اندازه یک رابطه دونفره است که در اینجا بی‌ سانسور به تصویر کشیده شده بود.

مرسی‌ 

Angel Mermaid

من که نفسم میگیره ولی تو یک کلاس غواصی زیر آبی برای خانوم ها بذار!

بوبولتلای فرفرزی من. حواست پرت بود

بهش میگفتی‌:

به فارسی زیر دوش هم  میگن هلو.

تمرین زیر آب خوب

"What's three times worse than war?" "Three wars?"

فرشتهٔ بیبال،خیلی‌ بیتربیتی!

Dear cousin Framarz,

you story about the neighborhood business man remind me of our neighborhood business man, Agha Asdolah, aka. Asdolah dolbor

اسدالله دول بور

He was the local guy who preformed circumcision and had a bicycle (Dokharkhe 28) and a little letter case which he would hang from his bicycle frame. Every time we saw him riding it with this letter case, we would shout out, اسدالله دول برم یالا، خوب میبرم یله

Of course he couldn't stop to chase us as he had a job to do and people were waiting for the big event

Mehrdad

Doctor Mohandes

We wuffed and meowed and made up!

faramarz

Sooo....

Maaan.. get into the habit of finishing your stories.. ok???:)))

I find your story more compelling and Literally engaging. In fact i see you as a fierce competitor against Ms. zarei..

 Soo... did you make another appointment or did that experience gave you a brand new perspective on the issue of ehem.. ehem..?

Intimacy

In my humble opinion, this piece was neither erotic nor pornographic. It sure pushed the envelope to describe intimate moments between lovers for writers with real names.

Every writer needs the understanding of his/her reader. I got you Ms. Zarei and more power to you.

Fati Khanoom

Your story brought back some great memories and a story that I contributed to one of Monda's blogs

A few years ago, I was dating an un-inhibited Persian girl. Her Farsi was not that great. One night in the middle of the action and all the huffing and puffing, she said in English, “Talk dirty to me in Farsi!”
As you might imagine, that stopped me dead on my tracks and I totally lost my concentration. So I said, “Sure. Let me think.”
I thought about all the curse words and phrases that I had learned all my life in Iran. But nothing seemed appropriate for the occasion. Then I remembered a memorable incident from walking home from high school back in Tehran

There was a notary office on my way home

دفتر ِ ثبت ِ اسناد ِ رسمى

There was some Haji (Haaj Abdol Nabi) running that office and one of his services was to provide the official divorce ceremony. We always made fun of him as we passed by his office and he always gave us a dirty look. After a while my classmates and I became more brazen and every time we passed by the office we yelled

حاج عبدل  نبى طلاقم بده

He was getting more and more furious as we continued having fun with him, but he controlled his anger. Until one day when he was performing a divorce ceremony as we walked by the office and yelled again

حاج عبدل  نبى طلاقم بده

He ran out of the office really pissed, with a broom stick in his hand and said

پدر سگ همچى بكنمت كه به گربه بگى حاج عبدل نبى

We all laughed and ran away
So, I told my date

پدر سگ همچى بكنمت كه به گربه بگى حاج عبدل نبى

She knew what sag and gorbeh were in Farsi! She looked at me frightened and asked me what I meant!
As you might imagine, that definitely killed the mood   

جالبه برام

از این که کامنت می زارین خوشال می شم. بد و خوب نداره من خوشال می شم. کار من داره بحث می شه و من می شنوم

دوستان حرف شما قبول

 اما چه کنم که خودم این قصه روخیلی دوس دارم

نگران نباشید قصه های قشنگ تری در راهه

Nazy jon

I read all the comments again to see if I'd missed one, but couldn't find the one you had referred to as this:

" I am a little surprised at the brutality of some of these comments!"

Which comments seemed too brutal to you?

We are discussing the story here, hope Ms Zarei is not offended by our honest opinion, otherwise we will have to stop commenting on the subjects on IC.

BTW- Best comment for me was the one from Bitter Divorced Man.

Agreed :)

The good behavior of the people, warms our heart and make us thankful.....  And the bad ones, just make us to recognize and appreciate the good ones!

Constructive Criticism

Azarin:

This is the first honest account I read on IC of a woman describing raw details of a shower scene which is not erotic, which is not pornographic, which is not sensual, but it screams intimacy tightly entwined with somewhat of a toilet humor - written boldy, clearly and in a simple language. It is not claimed to be literature. It is not here to move the earth and it is not here to be placed next to Miller or Shakespear or Orham Pamuk, so let's not. Let's not trivialize this writer's efforts.  Contrary to what you claim, I dare say, it is not exactly easy to write about golden showers and passing wind in bed - in a manner that will be touching and also humorous without it being gross. Don't believe me? Try your hand at it.

IC has rarely if ever been the place for an artist's 'final' draft. Here is a stepping stone, a trial ground, a place for budding artists to come out of the closet. To compare the work to professionals is ina ppropriate and unfair.  Why not compare it to other IC writers? Wouldn't that be a more realistic and appropriate approach? 

I received a great deal of support when I first started to publish on IC. I received tonnes of constructive criticism off line and a good bit of negative tearing apart as well (off and on line). It was ALL good. I wish the same for Fatemeh.

And another thing, if we only ever simply read about subjects we are comfortable with and consider 'literary achievements' then how are we ever going to broaden our horizons and find out what else is out there?

There are only 7 plots in the whole film and book industry. Yes - you read right - 7! Does that mean we all need to stop viewing films and reading books because they've been done before? NO.  Each artist does the plot a little differently. Woody Allen for e.g. has made a career out of making tens of movies out of the same plot. And nobody has stopped calling him creative. 

In that context Fatemeh's writing is a breath of fresh air. And as for golden showers, frankly I didn't think Iranian women enjoyed it - much less write about it; so, another revelation for moi. :)

beyond compare

Azarin, this is not a novel. It's like a personal journal. I feel no need to compare it (or anyone else's work) to the the best works of literature produced in history. I take it for what it is. Honest and real.

If I read a poem, I'm not going to say, well, this isn't exactly Rumi. If I see a painting, I'm not going to trash it because it can't compare to a Picasso.

I have read only a few pieces by Zarei. The same stories published here in iranian.com. From this small body of work I can see that her mind and pen have no bounds in exploring and expressing feelings and describing human behavior. She bares it all effortlessly and honestly. Her prose flows. It's refreshingly unpretentious.

When I read this piece, I didn't think it was her best and initially I did not leave a comment. Even Henry Miller has passages that feel like he's just rambling on about nothing, really. I'm reading Marquez right now. I'm trying hard not to be bored to death! My preliminary opinion is that "Love in the Time of Cholera" is a children's book for adults!

I see brilliance in Zarei's work, based on what I have seen so far. I enjoy her fluid, unrestrained style and naked realism. I won't compare her to the greatest works of literature because I neither have the knowledge nor the need.

OK, may be Azarin's comment is brutal but it is so so funy

Azarin, you wrote:"'I really cannot see their love to survive through so much pissing and farting! "

OMG, this was hilarious. I see every one's point but remember that this is just one article. We are spending more time discussing it that Ms. Zarei probably spent writing it.

Tell me more, Fatemeh...

First, an earth shattering confession: I took a shower with a man and I peed in the shower. I laughed and told him. He laughed and peed, too. Was it disgusting? Not to me, nor to him. Reading this story brought a smile to my face and a flood of memories.

I commend Fatemeh for daring to express herself. I think she has a right to that expression in whatever way she likes to do it. Her stories are sweet and funny and real. This story has followed the same style, only in this one she talks about a subject which may be a bit unusual. So what?

I commend Jahanshah for publishing this story, giving yet another writer a chance to be read and encouraged. As I look around the room, I see so many others, including myself, who have been offered the same chance, and I am grateful to him for it.

I commend you all for coming out and taking the time and trouble to express yourselves and your opinions. It is only through dialogue that we can learn and grow and get better. Writers benefit immensely from constructive criticism and a writing environment that is safe and welcoming, encouraging to further writing.

Having said that, I must add that I am a little surprised at the brutality of some of these comments! I mean, we are only discussing a story here! Relax Baba!

I know Fatemeh Zarei will go far and I look forward to reading more of her work.

Ok, JJ, I read it to the end!

Example of a witty literary writer: Henry Miller IS witty, and literary too...His work is full of shocking images and shocking words. But what makes him literary is not the fact that he provokes his reader. Just look how he starts Tropic of Cancer:

“I am living at Villa Bourghese. There is not a crumb of dirt anywhere nor a chair misplaced. We are all alone here and we are all dead.”

How can you not keep reading a story which starts so powerfully? He grabs you from beginning and wouldn’t let you go, so you wouldn’t mind that in the next sentence the narrator is shaving Boris’ armpit..or they’ve known each other because of some lice issue!

I don't mind to read about private parts or farting people as long as they're interesting, as long as they have something thoughtful to discuss, as long as they depict an image that I want to hold, to remember..as long as they create a new kind of beauty which is universal.

In this story, basically, the protagonist is addressing her lover, and the reader discovers that the protagonist's main want is to piss at her lover in the shower. Then we read her flashbacks about sharing his tooth brush. The story ends with the farting scene…

Well, I might be mistaken, but I couldn't see any hidden message, or pretty prose, or poetic truth, anything else that would give me a glimpse of hope that this story was about something meaningful, a revelation, a change, anything new in the prose..or at least funny. I really cannot see their love to survive through so much pissing and farting! 

Kafka says that reading a good book should shock, should stab the reader. I think that the author of this story might have misinterpreted Kafka!

But I can understand that some reader might be entertained by this...and it is fine. "Les gouts et les couleurs..."

Yet, this story is not literature.

Voila!