Misc

European

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts, I really appreciate your views and ability to find common ground and desire to have dialogue.

The reality is, as a planet we have no choice but to pursue such dialogue and teach tolerance. The longer we delay such direction, the more we guaranteed our destruction as a species.

Best Regards,

Fair

Anonym7,   Looks like

Anonym7,

Looks like you had couple of bottles of "alcohol" yourself when you were responding to me!!!

Your logic is so twisted that I don't know where to start answering you!!!

Come to CA. I'll be here.

To Fair

To FAIR

Hi,

thank You, I am very surprised about this discussion (it’s quite open). I try to find relevant information about Iran using the internet last two or three month and Your point of view on situation in Your country (You are native Iranian a You live in Iran, I suppose) close to my own point of view (but I am native European, man, sorry, I don’t know how I can better describe my intellectual background). Your opponents can be right, that this great success (and I must say, yes, it is real success – Iran is the 9th country on the world, but, there is the little but with capital BUT), but You are RIGHT (200%, 300%, maybe more), that technological advance is nothing without advance on the field of humanity (It seems, but I am not a politician).

For Your opponets - that is – what is living standard of Your citizen, how are They satisfied with conditions – freedom of speech, possibility to express own opinion, education, jobs, salary, medical care, equal employment opportunities for men and women – especially married women with children – because They don’t want to loose Their qualification, of course (sorry, don’t laugh me, please, because I don’t imagine society which could allowed not to use intellectual and working potential of half of its population – now, in modern world ), and so on, and so on. Switzerland, Austria, I think, have no rockets (but They have very advanced technology in every part of the society)….. and also no emigrants – it seems, people are satisfied there. And, and it is very important, this countries are also enjoing full respect of the rest of the world. Sorry, I don’t konw, how it is in Iran exactly, because I was born and educated in western civilisation. But above is important for every civilisation, I think.

But the main reason, why I decided to enter to Your discussion (I read a lot of blogs to recognize people, culture, habits, sights, history, fashion, architecture, and so on, but I never take part , because I am not Iranian and I can’t discuss about Your problems and situation in Your country) , is, that I would like to say You THANK YOU. For Your nice and pleasant words about people of Western civilisation. It is for the first time, when I can read about positive approach from a citizen of moslem country. It is only right way to the people of western civilisation, because people should cooperate. Nations should cooperate, because cooperation is the future. And if people cooperate, they recognize (if They have open and clear heart and open mind) each other,. They can see, that we all are the same, and we have the same wishes and the same fear. We look up to the stars, but we stand on the Earth. But, if we look to the stars, it makes sence of our lives (hmm, maybe for part of us). You know about history of Europe (especially recent history - Your commentary is very pregnant – You are right, all space program in all states of the world was started by Werner von Braun a German technical genius, who dreamt about journey to the Moon – reality was a bit different – but we can say normal in human history). I like history too, it is my hobby – maybe we could understand to each other (maybe next in a different time and in a different place). Iran is very old and nice country with rich history. And Your country always has taken part in shaping history of the world and also has had straight influence on european culture and respectively. By the way, we are almost neighbors (but for most Europeans is end of Europe in Vienna - terrible). I have never been to Iran, but I have heard, that a lot of people in Iran have heart on the right place and They are very kind to foreigners.

And it seems, that You, FAIR, have Your heart and brain on the right places. So all the best to You, to all Your family and if You sometimes decide to emigrate, I would pleased You choose Europe, because people with high morality standard are very rare in every society and in every state (even in EU – a joke, of course). Technocrats and gold-diggers (some especially like our rich social benefits) are not rare, we have a lot of own, or we can buy them (we usually do this and than we regret this). God is everywhere that You think, and for good and satisfied life most of people need good family, good job and a couple of good friends (and it’s really enough). It is possible to live everywhere but not with everybody. It must be the same in Your country as in my country. And if I touch somebody, I am sorry - cultural diferences.

With regards
An European

jakarta

i agree with you about excessiveness, in anything.   prohibition did nothing more than keep the drinking behind doors and created more illegal activities than any of the worst effects of drinking itself.  BUT i don't care for promoting it per se.  i smoke myself but i hate the cigarette commercials and billboards.  our young people ARE influenced by the glamour aspect seen in these ads. 

Plato said "excess generally causes reaction and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons or in individuals or in government".      

anything in moderation is a good thing...:-)

peace out

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to Jakarta

Jakarta, read my comment again. You did not understand it. My point was that one should not be stuck with details such as "ban on alcohol" while missing the big picture. As I said, some people can't see the forest for the trees, in the alcohol example even the tree is not viewed correctly, i.e, in actuality there is not much of a ban on alcohol!

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jakarta

few things are as persian as wine! all our poets raved about it. khayam, our da vinci, would not shut up about wine!

and it's really good for you. lowers cholestrol, makes the heart stronger and prolongs life. you should try it. it's the secret of impressive french health stats today. freedom also mean freedom from puritanism and narrow-mindedness on natural relaxants and hallucinogens that reduce tension and expand the mind. drugs are as old as culture itself. why be at war with them?

To Anonymous7

That's nothing to brag about. I dont think alcohol should be forbidden by the government, but on the private level I don't think it's good for it to be popular, I wouldnt want my children drinking for example. Also I agree with you that islam is weakening in iranian society, but the situation is a very bad one in that the gvt I think realizes it can take advantage of that. So at first they were very strict about the sharia, but as time wanes and now people are loosening up and getting away with it, the regime allows people to drink their alcohol, screw around, and take their heroine because they now realize they no longer have to suppress any opposition: the opposition is suppressing itself! The last thing a drunkard or a high person or a horny guy constantly chasing women wants to do is fight for their political rights. Meanwhile to their own Basij, revolutionary guards, etc they preach strict disciplined lifestyle and militance...I always find it ironic when iranians brag about how much "freedom" they have and how beer and fornication is somehow linked with progress...in fact the mullahs are right about one thing: these vices make a person lazy and passive, ripe as a victim of oppression and they won't even care or notice. Real freedom comes from discipline and having some boundaries. So people in iran drink their beer and gloat about how free they are, they should just know they are falling into another trap. Clear your minds and then you can achieve real freedom.

speaking of alcohol (to Kashani)

Kashani says: "The ban on alcohol is not a medieval concept?"

Farhad_jAn, I might be visiting California soon. How about us having a drink and mending our friendship? You can drink to the health of your favorite Israeli leaders, and I can drink to success of Omid. I'll pick up the tab. What do you say?

can't see the forest for the trees (to fair ly tails )

Those of you who are stuck in the past and are fixated on "Hijab", "ban on alcohol", "velayat-e-faghih", "sigheh" ...., and can't see the forest for the trees, need to broaden your view. While you have been obsessed with those details, you have failed to see that during past 30 years Islam as a whole has gotten much weaker in Iran.
you need to visit Iran and see for yourselves (as I did) how many of Islamic values are gone, and how many of the Islamic rules are being broken by vast majority of people without any consequence.
Keep being extremely concerned with "ban on alcohol" while my moonshining cousins in Iran are making the best aragh and drinking it with maso-khiar!

We all need just to accept one another!

Obviously Khomeini got greedy with power. He was like a teacher who was running his first class with first graders and he realized whatever he says people(first graders) would do, NO MATTER WHAT, so he stole the revolution from the true owners(the people) and was consumed with power!
Two days ago Iran sent a Satelite to the orbit, what to do? we know the facts about IRI, we know what they have done and what they are about and what they believe and so on and so forth. there are two positions taken:1 people that are outright against any advancement that IRI makes in any field.2 people that belive there is a good chance to change the IRI and turning it around with accepting some advances and applaud it,encourage it. and be confrontive when it is negative and against the code of Iranian culture and believes.
You can choose one of the 2. But the first one REQUIRES for the regeme change and as Choghok said Pasdaran and secret police will undoubtedly kill a lot of people and create a blood shed and torture and distability and staying behind of all scientific advancement and once again who knows what kind of people would take over the power and the new people may get power hungry and greedy and steal the next revolution! After all it happened to MASHROOTIAT and happened to Mosaddegh thanx to the Americans and the last one happened to the 1979 revolution. The second one means changing it through bloodless revolution by empowering individual people by NONE VIOLENT solution by being wise and not selfish by understanding and standing your opposite views by being fair and giving the benefit of doubt to the views that could be right and once our view could be wrong! after all "RAHRO AAN AST KE AHESTEH VA PEIVASTEH RAVAD" yes indeed it will take a long time, but no mother is going to keen then loss of her child, no father would taste humeliation by witnessing his daughter getting raped by few guys.

There are ways and there are people within the islamic regeme that would love to have a democratic society, the difference is they think islamic and we think sacular. But time will heal all wounds.

After all we(the ones that have chosen to leave Iran) have less at steak in this, than those that are still living there and facing the challenges that Kadivar and Fair and choghok and anybody else that passionately got involved in this debate talked about.
I wish Dr. Mosaddegh never would have lost, I wish Mashrootiat wouldnt have been betrayed and I wish after the 1979 we would have respected democracy and the will of the people. but none of those happened, and we are here at this moment of our history and Iran just sent a satelite into orbit.

I say good for those kids that did it, I am happy for them and this is a big leap and shouldnot be taken lightly. Because I wish and hope that Iran will be a powerful country and all of us one day can celebrate chaharshanbe soori in Iran and sing the WALL by Pink Floyed in the AZADI(shahyad) Sq. in Tehran.
Respect each other even the ones that hate your guts.

Fair: Didn't you know that

Fair: Didn't you know that Iranians love to move to Pakistan and India, Malaysia so they can have a better future since their gov't cannot provide them with jobs??

Didn't you know that Iranians love to watch stoning, maiming, arms and legs cutting of those who criticize the incompetence of the IRI??

Didn't you know stoning and hanging was a national sport in the good ol' IRI??

Didn't you know that Iranian children love to go to bed hungry while aghazadeha buy million dollar condos? They love the stufff...wake up brother...

/end sarcasm

Maybe Q has a good point..

about the typical Tehrangelesi reaction.

Who needs these losers? They are stuck in the past. They do not want to accept what "hit them in the ass" 30 years ago. They are not capable of accepting who "Iranians" are.

Maybe you are right Q. Maybe we should all just make peace and accept that Iranians want

-Islamic rule

-velayat-e-faghih

-someone else to tell them what God wants them to think, eat,drink,read, and wear

-freedom to be a muslim and nothing else if you were born muslim

-the right to kill someone who chooses to stop believing in Islam

-the oppression of women and minorities

-the notion that a woman is half as human as a man

-the imprisonment of a person for their beliefs

-the killing of someone because they are gay

-stoning and rape and torture of prisoners

-all our non governmental reporters in jail

-the right to sigheh

-the right for a man to have 4 wives but a woman to have only 1 husband who can divorce her at anytime.

-women not be able to do any sport they want.

and all these other wonderful things.

Maybe our notion that "Iranians" as you call them have a culture that is based in the above, and not in tolerance, humanity, literature, kindness, inclusiveness, art, music, beauty, and happiness. Maybe it doesn't matter that we once wanted the rule of law and a constitution based on human rights and will of the people, that we wanted this all in 1906, and that we have the oldest democratic movement in the world outside of the west. Maybe it doesn't matter that the world's first charter of human rights came from Iran, that the world's first university was in Iran, that the world's first truly federal system which respected the rights and beliefs of all its population were in Iran, that we had women leaders and admirals and generals, and that it was the Muslim invasion that destroyed the books in that university, and dictated the rights and beliefs that we were entitled to, and told those women to go home and cover themselves and be quiet.

Maybe we should stop fooling ourselves. Let's just throw all that nonsense away. Who do we think WE are anyway?

Well Mr Q, I have news for you. I know damn well who I am. I am IRANIAN, and I know what that means. And you or any mullah or other advocate of barbarianism cannot take that away from me.

NEVER.

-FAIR

To Benyamin

Well I do not think that you can trust this Ahmaghinejad or IRI for that matter. First of all Ahmaghinejad is in the same league as all oher dictators when it comes to lying I do not think I need to put an example for you. Just think about the gay statement.

Another point is the state within state that is the revolutionary guards. Who know what they will do if their financial or military power would be threatened in Iran? It would be like a blood leech that would not let go and worse it has the power to destroy you. 

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Q,   Which

Q,

Which “bacheha” are you talking about? How would this improve the life of ordinary Iranian citizens living under the oppression of the IRI? How can we, the people, get credit for something a regime, which does not represent us and has silenced our voice, did? The IRI regime is using ancient Chinese and N Korean technologies to develop weapons to further intimidate the Iranian people and the world, so what? USSR had great technologies and was the first country to launch a shuttle, did that bring democracy or legitimacy or better life to Russia? Did that leave a great legacy for USSR? You got to be joking!

Also, your other comment made me laugh about the “akhoonds not being from 1400 years ago”. Well, lets examine, so you’re saying :

-         The application of stoning is not a medieval concept?

-         The application of flogging is not a medieval concept?

-         The application of segregation in buses and schools and elsewhere between men and women is not a medieval concept?

-         The application of Apartheid policies between different segments of the population is not a medieval concept?

-         The appointment of an unelected shite clergy to lead the country, for life, is not a medieval concept?

-         The enforcement of Hijab on half of the population is not a medieval concept?

-         The ban on alcohol is not a medieval concept?

-         The ban on music, except the ones sanctioned by the regime, which are limited, is not a medieval concept?

-         Official discrimination against women, religious and ethnic minorities, written in the constitution, and practiced daily, in all walks of life, is not a medieval concept? For example, not letting Sunnis build a mosque in Tehran, and minority women having to wear Hijab.

-         The application of medieval law in inheritance differences between a man and a woman is not a medieval concept?

-         The enforcement of medieval law in testimony process where a women’s testimony equals half of men’s, is not a medieval concept?

-         Basidjis raping virgin girls before they get executed because they didn’t want them to die as virgins, is not a medieval concept?

-         Leading the world in Juvenile execution is not medieval?

-         Officially labeling anyone who is not part of the regime as “kafar”, is not a medieval concept?

-         Wanting, and acting towards, your religious ideology taking over the world because you believe your duty is to spread the religion, is not a medieval concept?

You’re something else! I don’t know whether you are really naïve or very much knowingly spreading propaganda. I think you’re both.

Anonym7

pleasure is all mine, argument or no. You are a respectable voice here and I recognize this.

Fathollah: you are right. This is not about any kind of threat to the United States. It's just to a way to deny Iran progress.

Consider the fact that US claims Iran has a lot of oil and needs no nuclear energy, but at the same time blocks the Iran-India oil pipeline.

These are just excuses. There is no threat from this. There is only one thrat: the perception of Iran as a backward Islamic country that cannot defend itself is being shattered much to the crying shame of both neocons and those Iranians who are incapable of thinking about anything other than toppling IRI.

As for the comments in this

As for the comments in this thread, I am with the Agha/Khanoum Fair!

However, years a go I remember US Air Force bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade (by mistake or deliberately, I will never know!). A couple of years after this incident the Chinese put a satellite in orbit. This satellite fell down/brought down (by mistake or deliberately, again I will never know!) in the ocean outside Chile, far far away from China, but in the US backyard. Now, I can't remember the exact details of these incidents.

But, one wonders whether these incidents were merely accidents or deliberate acts by either sides.

What ever Iran will undertake and achieve in the future, will be condemned by outside forces. I think, we all know this from past, but recent history.

The question remanins, what are we Iranians prepared to sacrifice in order to achieve monumental work in the name of progress? I believe, it is a question of priorities!

Note: The same goes for Iran's ambitions to achieve nuclear energy, both past and present day trials!

Regrads Fatollah

wrong Mr. Choghok

Choghok says: "Now how come we have almost the same kind of guy in power in Iran (he has still had not the time to show how crazy he is) and we cheer him for success in nuclear power and rocket science?"

No Mr. Choghk, we don't almost have the same kind of guy in power in Iran. More importantly we DON't have the same kind of regime (Baathist) in Iran. Iran's power structure is totally different from that of former Baathist regime of Iraq.
If you are really worried about Nukes in the hand of crazy people, you should worry about Israel, Pakistan, and U.S (under another Bush/Chenney).....

FYI/IRAN: REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS ARE TAKING OVER IN TEHRAN

As Iran’s Islamic revolution turns 30, some experts on Iranian affairs contend that the country’s clerics are losing control over the government. The new and rising center of authority in Tehran is the Revolutionary Guards.

One Iranian affairs expert, Ali Alfoneh, believes that like the Shah who left Iran in 1979, the current leadership of the Islamic Republic "aims at modernizing Iran, but does not provide political freedom to the modernized society." As a result, Iran now has "a very large middle class, which is urban, which is well-educated, which is well-informed, and which also demands political rights."

Unlike the shah, Alfoneh stressed, the incumbent government has an instrument at its disposal -- the Revolutionary Guards -- that it has deployed to make sure that public dissatisfaction does not evolve into a protest movement. In addition, the passage of time has worked to the leadership’s advantage: the struggles of the past three decades have greatly diminished the popular will to resist. Instead, popular apathy prevails, with most Iranians simply yearning for economic stability.

more here

So what? right? no, let it

So what? right?
no, let it be . let them advance and it helps democracy in long run, because a stronger country will have no fear and will open up.

let me tell you whay some are unhappy.
An Iranian executive who worked with Israeli or jewish executives once said that one of the israelies who got more than a million dollars salary a month was upset for a few days. Do you want to know why? well because the other israeli executive had receieved more stock options.
so one millionaire was jealous. This is true in some cultures and some families and I have seen christian jew or muslim jealous people who envy advancement of others.
so some here may not be evil but just jealous because of poor family values.

RE: Truthteller

Zimbabwe, an African country, running in triple digit inflation, heard about it?

Iran Khodro and Iran Saipa are two car companies that are actually growing in today's car industry, they manufacture their own engines, watch this video:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBDBcIxGxp0

True older models still clinge on French designs, but this is slowly changing. They are currently opening markets in South-America, Russia, Turkey, North Africa and are working their way to eastern-europe. Hell, in 35 years, maybe you will be driving a Samand down the Vegas strip.

About the oil and gas exploration etc, its difficult heavy and expensive technology. I have never stated that everything the IRI says is homegrown is actually homegrown. off course they use it for propaganda purposes.

When the US made the Raptor, it was made as an American military symbol, but british BAE defence and other countries helped develope the fighter. So propaganda and nationalism is used by every country.

The Safir 2 lower body was actually a Shahab 3 design based on a North Korean rocket that was based on Chinese tech, that again was based on Russian tech, but the other sections and stages are mostly home made. But even this launch had cooperation with Russian technicians and Universities. Thats how the modern world works. Science and knowledge is global and strategic. American Rocket science is actually German based if you step all the way back in time.

As for the gasoline part, I have not stated that they are making their own refineries, they write deals with foreign national companies, and in these deals, Iranian engineers usually demand training, tech and knowledge share. Bushehr for example, we have Russian technicians and Iranians working next to each other. The second nuclear plant will not be 100% Iranian made even, maybe not even the third, but the fourth, the fifth will one day. Imagine the trading benefits Iran can have with other countries, just look at Avesta of France today, they export nuclear power plants in the billions, and lift their GDP with a stroke of a pen.

The road to complete independence is long and hard. But beating down on this launch, calling our scientists stupid and calling their achievements propaganda photoshop magic is unjust and not right.

Baradar Jan, I understand your frustration, Darius Kadivars frustration and so on, but I believe you are far to much pessimistic. True, Iran should have had the capabilities that we are getting today, 10 years ago, maybe 20, but IRI, American and EU interference in our country has messed it up. But we will get there, with the IRI, without the IRI, we will. Its our destiny.

In other words, keep politics out of science, industry and defense. These issues need to go forward, who ever is in power. That's my view, and I hold no love for Khameni etc, not one bit, believe me. I do know that the young generation of Iran are well educated, nationalist and are working hard to keep the nation intact while we sit abroad, zip tequilas and do internet revolution at its best.

well said Q

Q you said it all by saying "Iran has moved on."

.... and this time I can't argue with any of your points.

-mokhlesim

This is like wining a gold

This is like wining a gold medal, in the Special Olympics..lol

To Choghok

Well, I have lost alot of my distant relatives in 100s around SAR E POL E ZAHAB in the most extreme western part of Kermanshah very close to Iraqi border. They died(shaheed) by the use of chemical bombs! You may have heard about it. I also lost another family friend died(shaheed) because he was a doctor treating in the front lines same area(by the way all those people were CIVILIANS) all died by the use of chemical bombs. You may ask what this has to do with your comment?
Well, at the time Saddam was using WMD on Iranians the very same government was in power and the same Idealogoy was being practiced, but IRAN DIDNOT RETALIATE with the CHEMICAL bombs even though they were ready and were in posetions of the technology(which by the way is very basic). So although I amnot a fan of this government, but I think Iran has passed that test by flying colors since they were subjected to such crimes and didnot respond in kind. Please tell your friends and co-workers that their country is more IRRISPOSSIBLE than IRI at least in this area!!!
Knowledge is power, sometimes the truth is distorted in a way that we are made to believe the actual opposit!
And precisely why I didn`t come to the USA even though had the chance.
I don`t hate America but I know first hand who is the upper criminal. Saddam Hosain was an IDIOT but the USA is almost as guilty for first enabling Saddam by all means and second by knowing they are using such weapons against Iranians and let it continue which suddenly he started killing the Iraqi Kurds as well and I guess you all know what happened there.
I have to add IF SADDAM WOULDN`T HAVE USED WMD IRAQ WOULD HAVE FALLEN AND INVADED BY IRAN EVEN THEN.
I am sorry I got a bit emotional here, but I can`t think of any other way to remind all of you that we DIDN`t USE WMD even though did have the chance(being victumized and also at war)to use, but restrained from doing the same.

Bacha ha motshakerim

it is a great day for Iranian science and technology.

Why am I not surprised by the typical Tehrangelesi reaction?

The reason is simple. All the stories these people are telling their American friends about "who" the real Iranians are, and the guys running the country are just a bunch of "ignorant akhoonds living 1400 years in the past" is proving to be bullshit.

How can anyone argue with this?

As long as Iran is being unfairly treated by Western powers and their idiot former-Iranian parrots alike the people will gladly support artifacts of pride and nationalism just like this. To those Iranians who still don't get it after 30 years of wondering what hit them in the ass: Either accept this, or go to your grave while telling nostalgic fantasy stories to your cats. Iran has moved on. If you want to help Irsnians you first have to accept who they are.

Patriotism

When interviewing Iraq's father of nuclear program he was proud of developing nuclear power and weapons program under Saddam and he said that he would do it again with no hesitation.

Now I do think that Iraqis like everyone else have the right to have peaceful use of nuclear power, but to develop such a thing during reign of a crazy and muredreous regime in Iraq is something that I think most of us Iranians could not wish.

Now how come we have almost the same kind of guy in power in Iran (he has still had not the time to show how crazy he is) and we cheer him for success in nuclear power and rocket science?

My "foreign" colleagues also mentioned it to me that Iran has send a rocket to space. Some of the same colleagues do like Ahmadinejad since he has such a in your face attitude towards USA. They do not know how Iranian people suffer under him, so for them he is the hero.

Now I do not lie, it felt a bit good to hear some admiration in the voice of my colleagues, but that is nothing compare to how you feel as Iranian when this Ahmaghinejad talks on TV and lectures other nations on how to live your life. It is nothing like when you hear all the news coming about the arrests, executions, discriminations and harrasments in Iran.

Yes we need rockets and sciense, but we need so much more before that.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Benyamin

I agree with you, brother.  We need to realize that problems start with us and we need to resolve our issues instead of playing the blame game.  We also need more Iranians like yourself. Thanks for sharing your views.

How about exiling all the

How about exiling all the mullahs to Las Vegas. Give them a whole bunch of money to gamble and buy women...they'll never come back to Iran...hahaha

To: Aaminian

I sure hope so, I would love to see a prosperous Iran and with it Iranians. I have also heard about alot of scientific accomplishments in many other fields and I think one of their problems is management and finace in both areas they seem to lack exoerties, coordination and co-operation amongst differnt organizations.

I have reiatrated alot here that we need to deal with problems and achievments acordingaly and not reject everything out right just because it is done under the supervsion of IRI.It is time for all of us nationalists and islamists to attack the problems instead of attacking each others characters, it is time for all of us to disagree about how to tackle a problem rather than tackle each other. As it is our responsibilty to accept them equaly it is their responsibility and civic duty to accept us as nationalists.