DEBATE

Politicians are just that

Politicians are just that Politicians. It does not matter what flavour of politcians you have, they are all the same. Where politics fails, is how it cannot control culture or anything historical, especially in a culture with a very old heritage like Iran.

Both those men like Gormeh Sabzi. Both respect and participate in Noruz. That is what I mean by culture. Politics and its instrument, democracy, cannot deal with the intrinsic DNA of our culture.

So these men are both putting the cart before the horse. Iranians culture is being systematically associated with Ayatollahs' culture, and the name of Iran is being written all over the world, as being responsible for Ayatollahs' misdeeds, and these two intellectuals are talking politics.

It is a very sad situation. The moment you can all agree that you will not talk politics, until Iran is the name of the country, and Iran has a nationalistic anthem, and a nationalistic flag, that puts Iranian culture first, then you will all be able to save Iran. Until then you will be divided by politics.

Sometime soon, Iran will be Iran. At that point you can all be put in a special room, to haggle out your political differences until you go blue in the face.

In the meantime, USA is using the Ayatollahs to make a bogey man out of Iran, and all you all do is use all the facilities of internet to talk about other matters. History will judge you all. Khejalat bekesheed.

What they should have done was to say, ok we have our differences, but we have a lot more in common. Which is more important? No one speaks like this. It is not rocket science. You should all be talking about getting Iran back dispite our political differences. So build a cultural front forum that has the task to tie all Iranians along existing cultural lines, and make proper representations to the world. Right now we do not have a cultural institution whose mandate is to protect Iranian culture against the genocide taking place in Iran. The Crown has a mandate, but the King is too much of a politician; hiding behind guilt complexes of his ancestors and putting the onus on the people, when in fact he has the mandate act. Once he has acted and brought the culture back then the politicians can go into their elected chambers anddecide what to do with taxes etc. But not now.

Ali Mostofi

//www.alimostofi.com

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One last thing! Hate to pile it up like this but, paying mortgage for your own house, beats pouring rent money in landlord's pocket any day of the week. It is true that the whole housing market has become a theives' den, at the same time keeping your money in your own pocket still makes sense. Nothing is wrong with house ownership, more  people should enjoy the social mobility to afford it.

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RG jan thanks for your comments, me thinks each of them actually shows their idea of overthrowing IR. For Ali, it's joining his one man show. For Mehrdad, it's the contemporary Iranian social movements, which are a lot more substantial than any anti-fascist front, since the former are what is known as  autotochthonuos, organic social forces (of Iran). How some on the organized Left have failed to make connection with these forces remains an issue.

Thanks for Chopwell. Langarod also used to be called Leningrad. It was probably one of the few cities in Iran that boys and girls could walk hand in hand, and everybody would just mind their own business.

Stalin was a cowardly, rootless, meglomaniac, religious, MFSOB,... that killed more Bolsheviks than Hitler. Not to mention Anarchists, Mensheviks, ten to twelve million Russian , Ukranian,..peasants,single handedly organized a renaissance of Gulags in Russia,..

If today's alcoholic, racist, disfunctional Russians still need such 'heros' that might not be as  positive a statement as we think, cheers

It's not Socialism vs Democracy

As we have been led to believe by endless media propaganda. It is Socialism vs Capitalism.

It is Free Education and healthcare for all, Zero Unemployment,  equal rights for all regardless of race or gender, vs a few hundred  greedy crooks sitting in wall street  controlling the lives and destiny of billions of hard working human beings all chasing after this dream of making it rich.

No amount of TV debates alter the fact that there is undeniable and unresolveable conflict between labour and capital. Working people at the heart of capitalist economies know it much better than us living in suburbs chasing after the "american dream", chained with hundred thousand dollar plus mortgages, yet hoping to transfer this amazingly unstable, illogical and crazy system to our own country wrapped in the pretty package of "liberal democracy".

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopwell

As for the old Soviet Union, People are begining to learn, slowly but surely that they never had it so good, even under the imperfect, inefficient state machinery the soviet Union turned into, and a brutal dictator.

//rt.com/news/was-stalin-the-greatest-russian-ever/

As for our own country, the fact is right now that the islamist fascists ruling Iran have excluded any ideology apart from their own fascism from Iranian people's political domain. So   I wish these great intellectuals spend more time debating ways and means of forming a united anti- fascist front to overthrow the islamist regime. After the islamist regime is gone, then all of us can have our votes in a free democratic society on who to rule us. Just let the majority decide, pure and simple.

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

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Khanom/ Agha RB, you are both correct and incorrect .

Correct in your condemnation of Bolsheviks' banning of opposition in the Constituent Assembly, probably their single biggest mistake, which should be opposed by all democratic forces. A majority that can not defend the rights of the minorities does not deserve to be a majority.

Incorrect in stating that : "from the very beginning the Soviet system
tolerated and allowed no opposition, no opportunity for people to have
their own chosen representatives to take part in the political system
and therefore it was no democracy"

The picture which emerges from recent studies of early Soviet Democracy gives us a rather  complex and nuanced view of that era. Although very short lived and weak, there was a Soviet Democracy before Stalin.See Sam Farber

//www.polity.co.uk/book.asp?ref=9780745607917

While attempting to synthesize a wealth of historical materials, Farber
also assesses the extent to which the disappearance of Soviet democracy
was due to objective circumstances, for example, the impact of the Civil
War, and the extent to which it was the result of Bolshevik politics
and ideology. In this context, the author shows how there were, contrary
to later Stalinist and Cold War mythologies, considerable and
significant disputes within the pre-Stalinist Bolshevik camp on matters
relevant to the preservation of the substantial democratic elements of
the October upheaval.

Cheers

Mash Ghasem jaan

Regarding what you say here: "...Soviet Union had one of the most advanced democracy on earth in its initial years. People directly ran and where in charge of their lives...."                                                                                                                                                   That is true to the extent that some Russian people (not all) were directly involved in helping to run the country, especially in the early days of Communism there, under the 'Soviet System'.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              However, even then the Soviet Communist system failed one of the most fundamental elements of democracy. What I'm referring to is for 'true' opposition parties, groups and individuals to freely, openly and under the protection of the law and constitution to take part in the democratic Process.                                                                                                         In short, my friend, from the very beginning the Soviet system tolerated and allowed no opposition, no opportunity for people to have their own chosen representatives to take part in the political system and therefore it was no democracy.

Crossfire of Ideas Essential for a Democratic Society

Any change in Iran for Democracy and Justice demands the collaboration and work of all parties in a democratic environment, from the Right, the Middle and the Left. Failure to see and work towards that will result in experimenting again and again in Estebdaad with a different flavor and face.

Thanks to the organizers of these types of debates which help us grow socially and politically, and also thanks to Iranian.com for sharing them with the readers.

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Dante has been translated into Persian, by Dr. Shafa. It would be nice to have some of that translation in here, cheers & good night or good day , easy on the wine.

Mash Ghasem Jaan Immanuel Who ? ;0)

Dante's World Government

As for Wine my dear fellow like Wisdom it needs maturity to be appreciated to the fullest ... something You "Fast Food Hamburger Aficianado" Jomhurykhah's clearly Lack 30 years On ...

Cheers

;0) 

Recommended Reading:

Dante Alighieri (1265-1321): Monarchy (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought)

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Hosseini jan, with all due respect Soviet Union had the most advanced democracy on earth in its initial years. People directly ran and where in charge of their lives. You had an advanced people's participation in administrating the society and the state. It  was eventually degenerated, but that process also was a lot more complex that reducing it to Lenin's will , let's just say backwardness of Russia and failure of revolutions in everyother country put Bolsheviks at a disadvantage. And any connection between Lenin and Stalin's crime is an old absurdity that never stands in close examination, cheers

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DK jan with all due respect me thinks Fukoyama took back his position of "End of History" a few years ago, so on that note we might need some updating.

As far as Mehrdad's talk, again I could be mistaken but, it would be more of " World System " , Immanuel Wallerstien, approach, rather than any centeric. Furhtermore his whole emphasis is on the contemporary Iranian social movements: students, women, national-minorities, labor, enviornmental,...so I'm at a loss how you could overlook all these very Iranian specifities and yet call it Gringo-centric!? what gives? is it the French wine? chesse?...

P.S. loved that blazing saddles clip. 

Thanks for this brilliant debate

Dr Javadi: Why did lenin fail? Please don't blame Stalin. Why did Lenin's system lead into Stalin's brutal system? Dr Javadi, are you accountable to your members?Do you use a the modern web technology(like iranian.com) to get your members involved when making decisions(whatever they may be)? A question to Dr mashayekhiSectins of green movement is financed and administered by pro Imperialist and sections by the likes of Rafsanjani, neither of which have any interest in democratic institutions. Do we have to follow these sectins of geen?

My view on failed revolutions 

Most revolutions have failed
Because they have been derailed
Never mind Ayatollahs
And the groups of mullahs
Failed by likes of Stalin
Trotsky and Lenin
Failed because all these leaders
Agitators and thinkers
All in the name of workers
Were self appointed leaders
Of course it would never work
In such a bad framework
The solution is one word
And don't think this is absurd
I am sure you would agree
Democracy is the key
cont...

Democracy administred by the people and not by the super rich in the Us or in Iran.

FYI/ Iranian born Hanif Bali elected to Swedish Parliament

ROYAL FORUM: Iran-born Hanif Bali elected to Swedish Parliament

The Shah once said " I will behave like the King of Sweden when My People behave like the Swedes" 

A very Americano-Centric Debate which leaves History Out ...

Watched everything but I'm afraid that despite appearances this was A very Americano-Centric Debate which leaves History Out of the Picture and illustrates the mediocrity and failure of the Iranian Intelligentsia 30 years On to actually learn from history and imagine any constructive and appealing blueprint for change ...

So I'm not surprised that this Folk is Quoted Once again in this debate:

The End of History and the Last Man Francis Fukuyama

If neither lacks arguments to defend their point of view however Clearly Both "Intellectuals" lack Imagination ... 

But that is nothing new is it ?

ahosseini & Simorgh5555: What is it your don't Understand ? ;0)

;0)

So allow me conclude by quoting from Azar Nafisi's favorite Canadian Author when she Speaks about the "Republic of Imagination":

"A Country that Loses it's Poetic Vision is a Country that faces death" -Saul Bellow

Andar Bab Khalibandy va Khalibazan

Mr. afshinzad, with all due respect I have never called Dr. Mashayekhi khaliband, my use of the term was for Javadi and his ilk. And I don't appreciate anyone insulting one of my favourite Iranian intellectuals, approperiate tone and language is appreciated. Mehrdad's writings in the past 30 years speaks for itself, I would love to read some of your writings.

In respect to viabilty and feasibility of Capitalism  besides the numbers mentioned before I just refer you to the Standard & Poors rating of the US, S&P  just lowered its rating of the US to negative.The largest economy of the world seems to have some real structural problems. But it's not just US, it's also Europe, Japan and all economies involved in the world market. Simply put, it's not working. By now we all know USSR didn't work either ( except for those few early years).

Our solution might be to take the best elements of market and plan economy, and make it work for us. It's a long order but both dominant models:  neoliberalism and command economy have  been discredited by hisotry, cheers.

good debate

Javadi has the same old argument and I'm amazed how naive he is.

good debate

Javadi has the same old argument and I'm amazed how naive he is.

This guy Javadi is a good orator!

This guy Javadi is a good orator and a demogogue.

He speaks very well and knows how to push people's button. He sometimes makes self-evident remarks which easily impress superficial minds!

He reminds me of the likes of Hitler, and mostly Trotzky!

Now what kind of communism does he talk about the Lenin one or the Che Guevara one?

I thought Marx was writing a new book!?

Democracy Index: Parliamentary democracies remain on top (2010)

Democracy Index: Parliamentary democracies remain on top |

The Economists Democracy Index is out, confirming once again that parliamentary democracies (whether they are monarchies or republics) are more democratic to executive presidential systems, . Here's the rankings for 2010 for the "full democracies":

1. Norway - constitutional monarchy
2. Iceland - parliamentary republic
3. Denmark - constitutional monarchy
4. Sweden - constitutional monarchy
5. New Zealand - constitutional monarchy
6. Australia - constitutional monarchy
7. Finland - parliamentary republic
8. Switzerland - parliamentary republic
9. Canada - constitutional monarchy
10. Netherlands - constitutional monarchy
11. Luxembourg - constitutional monarchy
12. Ireland - parliamentary republic
13. Austria - parliamentary republic
14. Germany - parliamentary republic
15. Malta - parliamentary republic
16. Czech republic - parliamentary republic
17. The United States - presidential republic
18. Spain - constitutional monarchy
19. United Kingdom - constitutional monarchy
20. South Korea - semi-presidential republic
21. Uruguay - presidential republic
22. Japan - constitutional monarchy
23. Belgium - constitutional monarchy
24. Mauritius - parliamentary republic
25. Costa Rica - presidential republic
26. Portugal - parliamentary republic

Mashayekhi Mentions Sweden but fails to say it's a Monarchy? ;0)

Mashayekhi Mentions Sweden as a Role Model ( notably for it's Social Democratic approach) but fails to say it's a Monarchy? ;0) 

Persian Carpet Gift to Sweden's Crown Princess Victoria and Husband

Same for Denmark and other Scandinavian countries ...

DIPLOMATIC CORPS: Mehrangiz Dolatshahi First Woman Ambassador of Imperial Iran (1960)

DIPLOMATIC CORPS: Abbas Amir-Entezam IRI's First Ambassador to Sweden (1979)

DIPLOMATIC CORPS: IRI's New UK Ambassador and Wife On Way to Buckingham Palace 

So Before Lecturing the Communist Ali Javadi on his reductive view of Democracy shouldn't Mr Mashayekhi and his Jomhurykhah Likeminds practice what they preach ? ...

World's Top Democratic Governments: Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index 2010(PHOTOS)

THE PAST IS A FOREIGN COUNTRY: How Would You Evaluate Iran's Democracy Index in 1953 ?

My Humble Opinion,

DK 

Related Blogs:

How Truly Democratic And Stable Is The British Monarchy?

RESTORATION: Britain's 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688 and the 'Bill of Rights'

RESTORATION: Shapour Bakhtiar advocates Restoring the Monarchy

CONSTITUTIONALIST FORUM: Daryoush Homayoun Political and Journalistic life Honored in Germany 

Excellent debate, Thanks for posting

Mashayekhi was superb all the way, Javadi seemed to be shadow boxing rather than hold proper debate against Mashayekhi!

Javadi's model of Government seem closer to Plato's reluctant philosopher/leader model who takes power on the basis of concern for the republic and on the ground that anyone else would screw or corrupt the system. whilst the leader seem to come from a closed group and based on a deception that others can be part of such a circle but they can't! ( see Plato's Republic).

Effectively Valih Faghih is a distorted version of such a philosophy and a dangerous versions of this.

Add a galloping political horse that wants to drag handcuffed masses towards change and sometimes you end up with the cultural revolution or Pol pot's year zero. 

Iran has had too many year zeros to listen to this kind of talk.

Social evolution would determine the fate of Iran, and I think the fate will be  good because repression has awakened people and united the youth, women, workers, middle classes all wanting social reform and economic prosperity.

A secular socialist democracy seems like the best solution for a country coming out of a dark phase and needing almost everything, infrustraucture, job creation, personal freedom etc.

Society has evolved, it is time the so called leftist intellectuals who are sometimes as intellectual as an old Rozeh khoon start to evolve too. Many of us listening to this for 30/40 years are no longer students and have reached middle age, so please show a bit more of intellectual maturity that should come with age and give us more credit when you put forward the same old rhetoric.

Mash Ghasem,

FYI, both of these two guys are clowns who have no idea what to do and have no clue what are the needs in country, each of these guys want to have own Regime and dictatorship and both are liars and as you said both are KHALI BAND.

CAPLITALISIM: either we like it or not,it will exist. whether will be semi or full capitalism, look at china and India and Brazil, thanks to American international companies that made it possible for these developing countries and without American companies would be impossible, so if want to have social democratic economy or any other kind, at end we will end up with semi or full capitalism and there is no choices in today’s free trade world.

We need one system that will respect every party there is and electing any party to run the country must follow the constitution of the land and no matter what your or my parties’ ideology and believes are.

My choice of regime will be monarchy just like Denmark, but whether that will have the support in Iran or not, it depends on how many people like Javadi carry the hate from past, which has a no room in our future, with hate we cannot prosper and we cannot continue same arguments from last 33 year, we must unite and get our act together and cooperate with each other and compromise and accept what people will decide for their future. Without unification and compromise, we will discuss these issues till next century and still we will not reach common ground.

My hope is future Iran will be free from these clerics and Islamic laws, free land for all walks of life and ideas and any political parties could express their oppinion and all they could work to building better country and the society.

Long live Iran and Iranian 

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PN: they miss Kianory's Q&A session, why don't you start one in here? Put a little Imam's Line in there see how it goes.

Arthimis: the youth today have a name for it: KHALI BAZI, playing on empty, which Javadi has been doing for a while now.

afshinzad: world WITH Capitalism is bankrupt and dead. Take a look at all the monies given to the banks in Europe, Japan and US, since 2008, it runs into trillions. This enviornment around us doesn't exactly inspire confidence either.

When you say they're both out of the box, I think you mean they are not your choices and express a sort of a negative disapproval. However the term "Outside The Box" in today's vernacular has a positive approving tone. It mainly refers to thinking beyond the conventional box, if you will, calling for innovative, creative, unconventional thinking. We all could use as much outside the box thinking as possible.

Was going to post an article on the derivative market, and its size but its too long, suffice it to say currently it runs somewhere around 600 trillion dollars, that's 16 zeros, If we take the entire world GDP ( that's everything produced in a year all around the world, as 50 trillions, it's actually a bit less) this is ten to twelve times that. All this is nothing but pieces of paper barely worth their ink, all speculation on speculation, on ....that's the ultimate khali bazi.

I like them both, because

I like them both, because they are both Iranians, Educated, Intelligent, Wise and Patriotic, however somehow Mr. Mashayeki's ideas and suggestions seem to be more in line with the unfortunate reality of life situations in world and Iran in specific...

Furthermore, with all due respect to Mr. Javidi, I wish he didn't raise his voice in a "slogan" type of dialouge for the audience and viewers... As an Iranian, I think and feel he means well & many of his points and wishes are absolutey RIGHT for human beings and Iranians, but now days, people around the world and Iranians in specific are sick and tired of people who raise their voices to get their Idealistic slogans and view points across!!!

There has to be a difference between a Conscience, Strong , Democratic voice and the ugly voices & slogans we all have heard in the past 32 years plus! This particular idealistic way of revolutionary speech and slogans are exactly what our new generations in Iran have come to actually hate!!! Too many empty slogans and promises that not only didn't materialize , but proved to be an all out lies!!!

It's time to be a Realist and start a UNIFIED MOVEMENT for Iran by all Iranians! Despite of our many educated and cultured Iranian people inside and outside Iran, we are still dealing with so many deep curltural and educational deficiencies about realities of life and the world by so many of our other Iranian people who live in IRAN!!! That's an unfortunate fact, wish it wasn't like that, but it has been like that and NOW, it still is... We have to bring everyone in and on board, promise & prove that we can secure the safety and well beings OF ALL on every level, democratically...

ONLY after we succeed in this way, we can slowly remove and prosecute all the guilty ones of the past, democratically... Or else the "Vicious Circle" will continue... God knows until when?!

Free Iran and Iranians! 

STILL THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT!

We need better people with understanding of politic and clear vision to unite.

We need people who understand every one and every tribe and group and party and every religion have a same right, freedom is not a  bit or peace to have, in free society, freedom is full freedom nothing but, and yet these two who debate, don’t have a understanding of what is full or bit or peace freedom is.

I have watched two hour of speech, which one is Javadi communist and one is Mashayekhi liberal and Javdi wants full freedom and yet he doesn't understand freedom and he is stock in 50's and 60's and 70's and he has not been evolved yet and still anti American cheerleader, hopeless and no bright plan for leadership and cooperation with anyone, only me me me me!

 Mashayekhi, Liberal and his idea of reaching for free Iran is very close to mousavi and yet he denies that at end. Where this wise man did got an idea that anyone could have a chance to negotiate with Islamic fascist regime which is hunting for survival. I am tired of examples of Poland or any other countries movements, Do we forget that 33 year ago we have tried same movement as those countries and what were the results. Liberal friend is not clear and he is not open and brave enough to spill the goods on the table and his vision for future Iran.

I think both are out of box and none of them has a clear Idea what to do or even how to work with each other, and I would say in this debate winner was Mashayekhi and at least he has a acceptance that world without capitalism is dead and bankrupt, or better yet they will make you suffer and pay for it.

Javadi is correct about IRI

I think he states the truth about IRI and how the reformists have put the brakes on the revolution and how come people still think this regime can be reformed.

 His analysis is spot on.

I dont agree on his vision of a communist state but his understanding of where the youth are and what iranians think of this regime is much more in line then Mashayekhi.

Good dreams indeed

After more than three long decades the theoretical comedy-hour shows still attract desparate audience.

What makes me hopeful about future of Iran

is that Liberal-Democracy as a concept is what the smart people in Iran are seeking for the future.   Excellent analysis by Dr.Mashaykhee.

May we all have good dreams.

Mehrdad: 18 - Ali :0

Mehrdad: as usual has a very comprehensive and informed theoretical base and is able to connect it with today's Iran. In relation to the Left me thinks he was a bit reductive, there are active currents within Iran, that he doesn't mention (that takes one off). The Labor movement in Iran is actually a lot more complex, advanced and diverse than we might think, again he omits lots of important developments in that movement (that takes off another point ) = 18.

Ali: couldn't listen to more than two minutes of it. Looked more like a tired Used Cars salesman than anything else. All that shouting and finger shaking, looks so passe.He's probably the least qualified person to represent the Left.

Masoud jan thanks for the post, where's yout talk? cheers

The same old

Mr. Javadi reminds me of those active Iranian students back in  60s and 70s, who were passionate about politics but didn't know exactly what they want. By reading manifest and a few other related books taught they can bring something new to Iran. But they never put their heads together to understand that communism just doesn't fit our culture. Just like metals and plastics that you cannot weld them together. The same was true for Mojahedin Khalgh. What our country needs freedom for all, for the people and by the people.