Jahanshah Javid

No, NP, I am MUCH better off posting it for the two rugby teams.

you see, you don't know this because I've been away from the website for a while due to personal problems FAR beyond my control (and believe me, if it hadn't been FAR, I NEVER would have left) ,but both teams love me, so I'm the de facto referee.  Just watch me. Give it time. You'll see what I mean.

I do not believe in preaching to the converted. I can't because I don't belong to any church..

Flower power!  ;o)  (yes, that was a wink).

Miboosamet,  

Rosie

PS "Twilight Zion!" hahahahahohohohoheeheeheeheehee!

Rosie

very nice poem! actually, you may have been better off posting it for a different audience than the 2 rugby teams in that room :) 

NP/All:

No you see the problem is that Niloufar reminded me (subconsciouly perhaps) of the Spanish name Nicanor, which is male.  I am not SEXIST.  I am MULTI-LINGUAL.  LOL

I don't care if NP is a man or a woman or a hermaphrodite.  One thing I do know NP is that you ARE definiteely a poet!

And speaking of poetry there is a poem of mine I just posted on Rashidan's thread called "Nation" under his article with the supertitle iranian.com.  It is on the homepage.  I'd love you to read it, NP. Azarin and Natalia and Mouse already have.

anonymouse

No worries brother!

Rosie: you are SO sexist! Lol!

Mouse ......NP is correct

I questioned Robin's comment of NP as a "he" because all this time I thought NP was a woman. I just needed clarity.

Solh va Doosti

Nadia

duality

Azarin jan,

Thanks for that :)

Wish i was a poet. Perhaps I am trying to be one in a way.

Volcanic rocks fall into the dual category: A volcanic eruption brings much destruction but it leaves behind the most fertile type of top soil there is! Ying and Yang together in one go?

Peace!

Niloufar

Ok you are a woman, sorry about the confusion.

anonymouse

I think that was just Rosie missing the gender of my chosen name and imagining that i must be a man just because i said i wanted to be on top (of the page!) :)

Nikoufar Parsi

Did I hear someone say you are a man?  I don't know so I'm just asking and it's ok if you are, just for my info I suppose.

Lovely comment!

Dear Niloufar,

I just read your comment to Rosie and loved every word of it. My favorite part?

"Flowers and wine are the centre pieces of Persian poetry. They will outlast all these ugly political 'realities'. " Excellent point!

You remind me of a poet I know. Are you a poet yourself?

Azarin

PS: How about people named after volcanic rocks?..:-)

Flower power

Rosie,

I am a true believer in flower power. The lotus grows out of the murky waters of swamps and blooms into the most wondrous beauty. It is a symbol of compassion, wisdom and women's emancipation in eastern philosophy (see the Lotus Sutra).

Hindu Gods are often depicted as seated on a lotus in a 'lotus position'. The magnificent temples of Ankor Wat are built around the shape of the lotus. 

The most heavenly smelling rose in Iran is named after the Prophet (gol-e mohammadi). Few sensual experiences are as wonderful as the aroma of a field of mohammadis.

Flowers and wine are the centre pieces of Persian poetry. They will outlast all these ugly political 'realities'. I just wish their essence would enter into the political discourse. Khayam was one of the wisest of them all.

I am a friend to anyone here who names her/himself after a flower or a poet or such like. But those named after symbols of dominance (including kings or 'Rostam') leave me wondering. And they tend to be men! 

Peace!

Yes, NP, the current prevalent attitude of gays toward

marriage is BOTH revolutionary and conformist, and so is your attitude toward marriage, and Paradox Rex and so on.

As to whether this is the place to discuss activism vs. conformity, I would say that at THIS point on this thread you can probably discuss whatever you want to.

Rosie

PS  I want to tell you something.  There was a man over four years ago, an Iranian man.  who I fell very deeply in love with.  And he broke my heart but he opened my soul.  And the first time we ever spokem he called me Khaanome Gol.  And that is why I chose the first part of my cybername.  I was remembering him  And no one has ever called me that since. Not until today,

PPS  I just noticed you have flowers too.  :o)

Thanx, Fish. I guess you know that there HAS been a very

disturbing resurgence of unprotected sex in general among the gay youth, and hence AIDS,and that that is partly because they never really experienced the real AIDS crisis, and partly because they have convinced themselves that AIDS is something as controllable as say diabetes (untrue), and partly because the youth are youth and think they are immortal.

I guess you knew all this already but just throwing into the mix in case anyone else wants to know. 

Thanks for the reply. 

Rosie

Thanks for flagging your post to me. I had completely missed it!

Reading it I remembered that I too am basically against the institution in its present form! Isn't that funny?!

What I mean is that I think the 'legality' of it is something that detracts from the 'relationship' side of it, and binds people together unnecessarily when they should be apart in cases of failure.

I know you have gone one step further in this too, but perhaps here is not the place to ponder the merits of activism versus conformity...or is it?! I guess this is where our canadian friend is coming from. She is, however, on the verge of 'demanding' social activism from gays. But obviously some of them want to conform. Now this sounds a bit odd because the move to allow gay marriages is also described as quite a revolutionary one.

But, regardless of my own views about the institution, I am firmly for the right of those who want it in their own lives. It is a way of being pro-choice I guess!

And it appears also to be way of being a conformist and a revolutionary at the same time! lol!

Parade: I have no problem

Parade: I have no problem with parades. I am not homophobic either. My first gay friend was in high school. I've consistently maintained a reasonable gay to straight ratio among my friends. :)

I even blogged about the time I thought I was a lesbian. That lasted a very short while because I'm as straight as a straight chick can get. So I'm secure in my sexuality.

What I find embarassing about the gay parade is a mix of the odd bahaviour (loud / Obnoxious), the consumption of weed/alcohol etc, the overly exaggerated display of public affection (even among the straights who attend), the loud music, the body painting/peircing and so on. I never even knew there was unprotected sex going on. That's news to me. I can't believe anyone would deny that there a lot of wierd people at those parades. Some are straight, some are gay.

I understand that it can be a celebration. I also think that Los Angeles' Halloween gatherings in Santa Monica are strange. Not to mention raves. I never see naked people jumping around in any parades but the gay ones. And please spare me the mardi gras speech. We don't live in Latin America. Based on our social norms the gay parade is just wierd! But to each his own. I made a side comment based on my taste. Does everyone have to like the gay parade? What does it even have to do with gay rights? Which I support.

Queer lady with an attitude. My marriage argument was philosophical. I never said "the gays" shouldn't get married. Frankly DEAR, I couldn't care less who is doing whom and if they are getting married or not. I would like to know what people are doing only for the sake of thinking about trying it myself, but that doesn't apply to gay things since I'm straight. I wouldn't want people to know what I'm up to and so I give that curtosy to others. But that doesn't stop me from questioning things either. I some how expect gays to be anti straight establishment. That was the only thing i was mentionning.

And as for the french kiss joke, if you can't laugh at yourself...karet tamoomeh! There are plenty of straight jokes too. Don't be so tied up in being gay. Do you see straight people getting insulted at being straight? Oy Vey

rosie

my comment about "unprotected sex" was in response to n.zanincanadai and souri, who complain about the "parade in montreal", and how it's going "too far". In her comment, n.zanincanadai says:

"The Montreal parade is one of the worst ever. I've had the misfortune of being the victim of it one time. Quel catastrophe!
There is so much drugs and unprotected sex and completely insane behaviour that it makes one wonder why some people can't understand why other people cannot accpet gays."

I have been to many parades, including montreal's parade. I have never seen drugs and unprotected sex at the parades. i think the parades are just a lot of fun.

Fish, when you say ALL the unprotected sex is happening in the

fantasies of the people here, do you mean  unprotected sex at the parade or in general?  I'm being serious. This is important. Please clarify. 

Rosie

Irandokht; miscommunication...

I did understand your point dear , that's why I replied "I may haven't brought my smile here in this blog" as I have still some friends who are gay and to whom I can friendly say (as I do often) to watch their "defensive" attitude....and they stayed still friend with me ! 

dear Souri

I guess we have a real communication problem, because I have a hard time understanding you and you seem to misunderstand me as well or maybe you forgot what you had written in your comment:

I was referring to the angry people/homosexuals that you were complaining about, a little smile goes a long way. You made a generalization about them as being defensive and angry.

About the lady that you didn't want in your group, I misread your sentence completely and thought that "lesbian departure" was something you had asked her for. Did you ask it while smiling?

:-)

No problem: miscommunication happens sometimes... we don't have to go on and on about it.

IRANdokht

i have been to montreal's parade a few times...

and i have never seen any "unprotected sex". where do you guys hang out???? i think all the unprotected sex is happening in your fantasies.

another generalization and...

one I'd like to know more about.  I will for sure do some research of my own regarding that comment.  Having a gay brother, I can assure you I've done some research of my own and that is NOT anything I've heard before.  I'm assuming that you're confining your expertise on this subject to young boys who are raped and become gay.  What do the experts say about women who are anally raped at a young age? 

dear Irandokht

You are right. My Mexican friend, became first prostitute, then he continue in that way and became gay. At least This was what he told me (and I
repeat it for you) and this is why I said (in my own opinion) the
origin of the homosexual behaviour is not always the hormones.

Now, there are people here who seem to chalenge this idea, this is fine, I have no objection to that.

About your question : "Perhaps, if I knew what a "lesbian departure" was, I could try to figure it out."

I didn' t get what' s your question (sorry my English again!)

What I meant here was : in the past, I should once ask a girl, who
was also a lesbian, to leave a group of women we both were involved in.

Hope this is now more clear to understand for you. But if you need
the details about that, I don' t feel a need to give them here, sorry.

About your statement here :

an observation that you might want to ponder on: My personal experience
with people is that they reflect your own behaviour, if you're angry at
them, they show anger right back at you, if you smile and act in a
friendly manner, they will too.

I just say, I do agree with you and this is fully right. I may haven' t had
that smile :D when I wrote my comment here this morning, as I am the one
who get back all the crap and anger.

No matter, because as I already said: I have also very nice gay friends too. Who care about the angry people?

It actually happens to be true that children who are anally

raped when very young can become gay, as part of reliving the trauma, even if they never had homosexual proclivities before.  (Other gays will tell you that as early as five years old, they KNEW, they just knew...).  And I suppose childhood prostition out of desperation IS a form of rape...

Dear Souri,

Dear Souri,

a little correction re the gay friend: he became a prostitute because he was poor, he didn't become gay.

an observation that you might want to ponder on: My personal experience with people is that they reflect your own behavior, if you're angry at them, they show anger right back at you, if you smile and act in a friendly manner, they will too.

One more comment:

you wrote

"The gay guy then smiled with some acceptance showing in his face.

I, liked that scene, because this was happened to me too. In the
past, it happened once to me, to want a lesbian departure form a group.
That someone never forgave it to me, because she always thought her
sexual preference was the origin of my decision...and this was absurd !"

the above passage is just a big riddle to me. Perhaps, if I knew what a "lesbian departure" was, I could try to figure it out.

Best 

IRANdokht

Paranoid... defensive... whatever...

It's not just gays.  It's any minority or "challenged" individual.  The short dude is usually more aggressive... the tall girl slouches... the chubby guy wonders if he got passed over because of his weight...whatever.  It's unfair to generalize as you do.  As to the story about how your friend became gay!!!!!!  Because he was poor!!!!!  Offensive to the max.  I'd prefer to think you were being facitious.

Nothing more, Nothing less !

by Souri on Tue Jun 17, 2008 07:40 PM CDT

Is their state of paranoia. The only thing that bother me really, is
that most of the gay people are somehow paranoid. They think every
thing happening around them, is because of their sexual tendency, as
they think people in general, don't like them .

Couple of years ago, there was a serial movie at Show Case, named
Queer as folk. I liked that series and were used to watch it, specially
because of the good humour and also I wanted to know more about their
lives. In one of the movie, there was a gay guy who has been fired,
following the restructuring of his company. Being a good acounter who
worked there for years, he was so surprised of the decision. He run to
the COE and after a short talk, he said "I want you tell me the truth,
am I fired because I'm gay ?"...The COE who seemed very busy with all
those cores on his desk, shake his head and replied: The problem with
you guys is, you think the whole world is against you !

The gay guy then smiled with some acceptance showing in his face.

I, liked that scene, because this was happened to me too. In the
past, it happened once to me, to want a lesbian departure form a group.
That someone never forgave it to me, because she always thought her
sexual preference was the origin of my decision...and this was absurd !

Depending of what and how are the circumstances, I may even defend
their case. One of my best friend in Iran recently called to say that
his daughter just changed sex. He was so desperate, his wife (the
mother) was also in a stare of permanent depression. I tried to calm
him and talk to the mother to convince them that there was nothing
wrong with that. People have a right to choose their sex orientation.

But I don't accept that homosexuality is all about hormones. There
could be many other reason for that. I had a great gay friend, who told
me actually how he became "gay". He was very poor when he was a child
in Mexico. He had to do it as a job, on the street, with the
tourists..etc to make money for his family. His father was an alcoholic
and her mother had 7 children, who need food and clothes. My friend is
now here in Canada, he lives with a priest !! and recently the priest
resigned from the catholic church to be able to marry my friend. This
was very sad for me when I first heard his story. He showed me some
pictures of his family in Mexico. He said : You know sometimes I ask
myself, what would be my life today, if I wasn't born in a so poor
family, maybe I wouldn't became gay! He said he is happy now because
the priest loves him so much while other men always used him without no
sentiment for his feeling.

There are many kinds of gay/lesbian, and the origin of their choice is not always their hormones.

Unfortunately, some of them feel guilty for it and then projects
their feeling of guilt to the people whom they encounter as a regular
base, at work or in other groups places.

The only problem I have with the gay people is this kind of
"defensive" attitude they have toward people who don't even care about
their sexual choice.

And the rest, Aermican Wife

Rather than abstract definitions maybe I can give an example of what I meant. If you were an Arab posting here with a Saudi Arabian flag as avatar, you can bet that despite the content of your post, all sorts of people would rush with their insults similar to what the English call the Irish, paddy wagon, etc.  And unlike our exchanges, there is nothing happy about that, except for nervous angry venting.

It is not that this is just between Iranians and Arabs and the Irish are different. It is that Ireland and Iran are not neighbors. Give any two neighboring people long enough time and hate will develop. Witness Ireland and England.  It is that this would be example of harmful indulgance in pride.

I think pride can be magnificant or it can be extremely harmful. Pride as in a sense of one's own proper dignity or values is great. However pride as in arrogance to the point of claiming credit for something you have not done or to the point of obscuring the truth is extremely harmful. There is some of both here. Certainly, there is much good about Iranians despite the barage of negativity. And certainly there is much bad Iranians despite all the pride that blames everyone under the sky for our own problems.

Annoyed queer woman who does not want to get married

Are we talking about "lactose intolerance"?  I don't understand.  You seem to forget that this is iranian.com with our limited English capabilities.  We were taught only graded English,  so please try again.

What's All the Fuss?

Gays will be gays and many will want to marry, and it's nobody else's business, and in California they will marry and in Idaho they probably won't for a long time.  Because marriage is part of states' rights and not determinable by Congress or the Supreme Court for the foreseeable future.

There are so many other things to worry about and the discussion about why gays are gays and whether it's "normal" or not and why people marry or don't will go on forever with no resolution in sight. So why bother?  As the Beatles say:

"...speaking words of wisdom, let it be.  Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom.  Let it be."

Rosie

Oh my! I find it quite

Oh my! I find it quite ironic that what bothers the homophobe who calls queers "paranoid" is the fear/paranoia instigated by the spectacle of the master/slave relationship. I don't have time to explain the Lacanian theory on subjectivity, mirror stage, and the Hegelian master/slave narrative. Suffice to ask: Could it be that the fear (or secret desire!) of seeing a master/slave relationship comes from seeing oneself in that image? Dare I say that it might signal an identification with the slave in the image described of the gay parade? Could that identification be of a slave/wife in a heterosexual relationship? (no offense to wives as a general category.. Not all relationships repeat that dynamic, but some do.)

My problem is not the Disneyland and its stupefying effects per se... I just feel sorry for the kids who are being raised by bigots who do not bother picking up a book to educate themselves before they miseducate their children. Breeding should come with responsibility.

Here is a short quote from Stephen Ross who has summarized Lacan. i think it explains a lot:

"Returning thus to desire as a constitutive feature of human existence, we find a ready expression of how the desire for the other’s desire functions in the mirror stage. As I have shown above, the infant enters the imaginary through a process of identification with a specular image, an "other" with which it longs to be identified. The essential component to such identification, however (and the aspect that renders it impossible), is the necessity for the other similarly to desire identification with the infant. This desire for the other’s desire is not a simple matter of mutual desire such as that experienced in erotic love, but a more all-encompassing demand for total recognition; the infant wants not some part (however large) of the other’s desire, but all of it – he or she wants to be the be-all and end-all of the other’s desire. The impossibility of such a total identification is what keeps subjectivity moving from object to object in its quest for an object that will represent and capture the other’s desire and by possession of which the individual can absorb and utterly subjugate the other’s desire. Most simply put, desire is always a desire for the other’s desire; only the other’s desire for a given object transforms it from an object of demand or need into one of desire.

The second aspect of desire which Lacan exploits from Hegel’s model is that of desire as an aggressive drive not simply to possess an object, but to assimilate it completely, to negate it beyond all redemption. This aspect of desire is most clearly represented in the case of the apple pie, which the master seeks not merely to possess, but to make a part of his identity by consuming it. The act of negating the pie by eating it is also a display of mastery over the other’s desire, since the object is to some degree always also cathected with the desire of the other (whether because he produced the object or simply because he also desires it). And while the process is nowhere near as clear-cut with objects that are not so literally consumed, the basic dynamic remains the same. Just as the infant in the mirror stage perceives his or her specular image as an object of desire, but also as a rival which must be encountered and vanquished in the process of identification, so all desire is fundamentally aggressive and annihilating. Insofar as desire is a drive to possess, it is also always a drive to obtain the absolute right of life and death (or being and non-being) over the object: "This is my (car, house, plant, book, sno-cone, etc.) and I’ll do what I want with it."