"Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth"

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Artificial Intelligence

Thank you for the clarification AI. I answered the questions just so you and others know where I stand and because I wasn't sure if 'dari beh dar migi keh divar beshnaveh'!. We all know we couldn't get your intended audience to answer the questions and we all know what their honest answers would be. However it seems that you and I may have different views on the ruling forces behind international politics, economy etc. and the inequities that exist. Since that is not the subject of this thread I am sure you will understand if I refrain from going into it further.

Holly

Please read my comment. I was not asking you or the rest of the Iranian nation to answer the 3 questions. I was saying that first as Iranians we should ask these questions from IRI members and leaders such as Ahmadinejad, Khamenei and the rest of the Islamist gang members... Khomeini's feeling are clear and we see what he did to Iran and Iranians once they bought into his BS. You and I are not members of IRI. I am sure that 95% of the Iranians would answer thoes questions the same as you and I would.I do not question your patriotism but I do question the patriotism of IRI members and the regime in general. 

The issue with respect to your question (and thanks for changing your blog's content) is whether the current IRI regime has the best interest of Iranians & Iran with its internal and forigne policies.

I personally do not think that the current regime has the best interest of Iranians and Iran in its mind and it does not represent the will of the Iranian nation. The June elections are a perfect proof. The IRI system and constitution is a failure and a menace to the Iranian people. The current regime is leading the nation into deep trouble.

For example, here is a part of AN's speech at the UN Last week:

"It is no longer acceptable that a small minority would dominate the
politics, economy and culture of major parts of the world by its
complicated networks."

How should Iranians (NOT ONLY JEWS BUT ALL IRANIANS) feel with this bullshit coming out of the mouth of IRI leaders on a daily basis? Should they stand behind IRI's President and be proud of the record he has created for us?  

Anonymous Observer

In my opinion that would be Pastor Niemoller's own damn fault. He should have stood up for what is right and just instead of looking out for his own A** alone.

You see Holly

The example of the children is put to you to make you understand that your question bears high emotional stakes and as a result produces grave anxiety to a Jewish Iranian when he/she may(understandably) be attached to both countries. 

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Kharmagas

So I went to change the headline/content and got lost! What do you suggest as a 'more general content'? Multiple scenarios of Iran vs. X so that all minorities are covered???! Please help! That way we can share the insults that will surely come ;)

Sensitivities

I always hope against hope that with everything we have collectively been through perhaps our over sensitiveness and knee jerk reactionary nature would have been somewhat cured by now...but alas

To all of you who were deeply offended or 'degraded' - Sorry but if some stranger on the internet can degrade us with a question then we need to look within ourselves because that surely means we are not up for the task ahead of our nation. Again, for the record and for the last time THAT WAS NOT THE INTENT OF THE QUESTION. Nor is it intended to divide. 

To those who insist on accusing of alignment with IRI etc. - Believe what you will or read and consider what I have written in the previous post about where I stand with religion (ANY religion). I'm not here to prove you right or wrong and it doesn't matter to me what you think of me.

Anvar (and artificial-intelligence insofar as you repeated Anvar) - I love Iran. I worship Truth & Justice. I don't know that 97% of Iran are Moslems. I would count amongst that 97% and I am as far from Moslem as you can get. And there are millions like me. Furthermore, how do you suggest I get that 97% to sign on to iranian.com and answer your questions. Be reasonable. As for my own answers to your questions:

'1) Which is more important?  Islam or your Iranian nationality?' I am not religious. I love Iran and want what is in it's best interest. 

'2) Do you agree with the following statement by the Khomeini:  .....' Are you serious??? and before u accuse me of avoiding the question the answer is HELL NO.

'3)  Would you agree to relinquish Iran's borders for the creation of a
new Islamic Shiite caliphate from the borders of Lebanon to the borders
of India?'  Again, hell no. I love Iran the way it is. I vehemently oppose expansionism by whomever and for whatever reason. And no religion need be a driving force or one to contend with anywhere in the world.

Kourosh-S and Only-iran: If I 'entice and provoke' you ' or chant death to [your name goes here]' that doesn't give you the right to club me over the head my friend.

Captain -  '...minorities, ethnic or otherwise, who identify more strongly with their ethnicity than they do with their nationality,
you can't deny that.] I would argue that this is an exception rather than a rule.' Yes I would imagine but where I live it isn't. Thus my curiosity to find out if things have may be changed from being an exception, and are now more toward being the rule. The complete explanation of my experiences leading to this would be a long tale and I'll spare you here but am happy to share another time if you are interested. And as for the Azeri thing, my entire family (and let me tell ya it is one LARGE family lol) on one side is Azeri. I've never seen anyone rip their shirt open for Soviet Azerbaijan like I see it done for Israel. If anything they are 'overtly proud' Iranians.

Mehrban - I don't feel for e any country nearly as much as my own. I'd feel for my children equally so not quite the same question sorry. A more appropriate one was if based on my [birth] religion, I'd side with SA should it go to war with Iran and the answer is Absolutely NOT!

Kharmagas, BijanAM and anyone else that was capable of civilized exchange -  Thank you for being able to reason and for sharing your thoughts in a coherent manner without the name calling and accusations. Kharmagas jan I would be happy to change the title. It is a good suggestion. Thank you.

BijanAM - I still owe you a more specific response to your post and will do my best to get it done today despite the horrific day ahead!

To anyone whose legitimate comments/questions I missed: I apologize. I'm rushed for time. Please feel free to bring it to my attention.

To those who just come here because you enjoy getting your knickers in a twist and cry: I shall ignore your posts. Have fun untwisting.

Is this how we should perceive minorities?

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemoller.

Thank you Kharmagas Jan!

Good Idea.

I do have to admit that I do understand OnlyIran's points. But I do also blame the animosity between the two nations on the Rabin/Peres governments in the 1990's as well to be honest. Regardless, Ahmadinejad has been a disaster for Iranians and only has helped galvanize the Hawkish policies of the Israeli camp. I also think that Europe would be pressing on IRI regardless of Israelbecause of the current nature of the IRI.

What you stated below as the Muslims/Islam being the main victims of the IRI policies is very accurate.

I hope the IRI experience teaches the Iranian nation the lessons that the founders of USA had learned over 200 years ago when they revolted against the British: Freedom of Religion, Separation of Church & State and Freedom of Press...The nation did not find these concepts to important in 79. However, since the events of June 12, I do believe that we are on the right path to achieving this goal 

Thank you Hamshahri.    

I hate to say it

but this reminds me of "Sophie's Choice".  Well of course, many Iranian Jews would be deeply conflicted under those circumstances.   and why wouldn't they be.  I want to know Holly if you were at rough seas and both your son and daughter were at the risk of drowning and you could only rescue one which one would you rescue and why?  The most creul question. isn't it? 

Irandokht, which one would you save?  the least naughty one :-)?  Is this question as easy to answer as you think?  

Bijan you are a gentleman to have responded.  

Changing the title and ...? (to HollyUSA)

HollyUSA, I don't particularly care for what people such as "onlyiran" say. but I have great respect for people such as Artificial Intelligence (my Jewish Hamshahri) despite our differences regarding Israel.  I think there is a valid point there for you to change the title to something like Who would not side with Iran.... and changing the content of your  post to make it more general..... as you know there are many Muslims who would not side with Iran, ..., and there are many of us who don't give a hoot to any religion and side with Iran.

HollyUSA

I know that I said I won't comment anymore, but I thought that I should assist you to overcome your ignorance about [recent] historical facts.  Although it appears that you're not the type  of person who allows such pesky things as "facts" get in the way of your ideology and prejudice.

You say:

"And if Saudi Arabia was threatening to bomb Iran then your question would be fair and appropriate, but it isn't."

FYI, SA has, in fact attacked Iran within the past 30 years.  It fought a proxy war with Iran by funding Saddam's Second Qadessieyh and actually downed two Iranian F-4 fighters in the Persian Gulf, killing all four pilots.  It has also demanded that Iran give the  three islands to the UAE and calls the Persian Gulf "Arabian Gulf".  It also financed the Taliban regime as a barrier to Iran Shia'ism when they literally "skinned" Iranian dipolmats alive in Herat.  Additionally, it has been funding extremist sepratists gropus like Junddullah in Iran.   And last but not the least, it has purchased medium range missles to counter the "Iranian threat", has said that it wants to build nuclear  reactors in response to Iran and has even insinuated that it will allow Israeli aircraft over its territory if they wanted to attack Iranian nuclear installations.  And, oh, almost  forgot, it also attacked, beat and even killed Iranian pilgrims in Mecca at some point.  Israel, on the other hand, has done none of the above. 

So, being that Saudi Arabia has so far been a far greater enemy of Iran than Israel, don't you see it appropriate to  post the  question to Iranian Muslims?  I would assume you will  do so  in a separate blog!

Lastly, let me ask you a question, Ms. USA.  For the past thirty years, the IRI has been chanting "marg bar israel" every single day in the streets, in schools, etc.  It has openly claimed that it wants the destruction of the State of Israel.  It has funded and armed every  single anti-Israeli group on the planet and its proxies (hezbollah) have even started a war against Israel.  Now, in response, what do you want Israel to do?  Send the IRI, and its anti-Israeli cheerleaders like you for that matter, a basket of flowers?!!!!  Tell us, exactly how should Isarel respond to IRI's hostility. Please.  We want to know. 

Akheh por-roei ham haddi dareh!!!!  

Ms. HollyUSA - edited

You stated[ There are some members of minorities, ethnic or otherwise, who identify more strongly with their ethnicity than they do with their nationality,
you can't deny that.]

I would argue that this is an exception rather than a rule. Long history of peaceful co-existence in Iran is the proof. For the record, I am an Iranian who is Muslim. Throughout my life, I have had the privilege of having Jews, Armenians, Baha'i and various ethnic groups as my friends and even partners.

In past 30 years, minorities, particularly Baha'is and Jews been under tremendous social, political and economic discrimination, Yet 1000's upon 1000's have chosen to remain in Iran, and bare the hardship and brutality of the regime with their Muslim countrymen, who are more or less subject to the same brutality.

To ask such a[dividing] question, from these proud families of Jewish, Armenian, Baha'ie decent is astonishingly degrading, and perhaps as some pointed out borderline Anti Semite and racist.

This resembles the question if asked from an Azari Hamvatan[myself being one] If ex Soviet Azarbayejan where to attack Iran, which  side will I chose?

-YT 

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holly USA

I can not agree with you on the fact that the war threat is for real. Particularly based on what i have seen recently. What constitutes as a clear statement of the desire to go to war on both sides, is nothing but empty and totally baseless rethorics. IRan proved to the whole world that it will bend, on this issue if the need be and on the same basis US and other powers have shown iran their kinder side and decided to go easy on the sanctions, which would be the final stage before any possibility of any kinda of war or invasion.

Iran is and has always been responsible for enticing and provoking Isreal. There is no way anyone can deny that. If anyone thinks that ISrael is the only country who has threatened to bomb and destroy iran, They are not seeing the whole picture and are deliberately dismissing the facts. Hostile statesments deserve hostile responses. and You can't cry and complain.

I LOVED what Bijan A M mentioned in his last post, in which he pointed out the way Israel took out the targets in IRAQ And SYRIA without shedding any blood.

The impression that we get here, from those who are against any form of invasion is to (paraphrasing Bijan here) dramatize the aftermath of it and to somehow pounce on the point that no matter what there will be so many casualties and then they use that as their platform to launch personal attacks and totally baseless accusations.

Dear Anvar

Thank you for your response. It exposed the nasty nature of this type of questions regardless of anyone's religion involved. No one, regardless of religion should be exposed to this type of questioning. 

Furthermore, this blog exposes the ignorant anti-semites on this site who are miraculously against the "aggressor" only when the alleged aggressor happens to be of the Jewish type. Yes we jews have no right to be aggressors like other nations and religious groups, we can not make mistakes, we can not have any tyrants, we can not have bad apples, we can and only should be too sarry khor and pay our dehimi taxes to our kind hosts and pray that they treat us nicely ............  

Regardless, as a proud Iranian Jew who is against any type of military strike against Iran by any entity, I would first like to ask the members of the current IRI regime some questions before answering Holly's questions:

1) Which is more important?  Islam or your Iranian nationality?

2) Do you agree with the following statement by the Khomeini: We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another
name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land
go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the
world.”

3)  Would you agree to relinquish Iran's borders for the creation of a new Islamic Shiite caliphate from the borders of Lebanon to the borders of India?

Once they honestly answer these questions, I'll answer Holly's insulting question. 

Anvar

I wish I had a fraction of your eloquence and intellect. You are something else….

Thanks for your post. It is a world apart from every other comment when it cames to relevance.…

Ms. Holly

Please correct me if I’m not addressing you properly.  You state in your brief blog, “

I was about to post a comment on another thread about the related subject.”  and my blog //iranian.com/main/blog/bijan-m/israel  had appeared at about the same time. Your question and your line of thinking would have been a perfect fit as a comment on my blog. That’s why I assumed your question was more specifically addressed to me.

Regardless of your motives for posing the question it is at best silly (as I suggested in my earlier note) and at worst racist and fascistic as suggested by others on this thread. I think I already have given you my short answer (granted, resentfully) but would be grateful if you allow me to indulge in elaborating some more.

 I give you the benefit of the doubt and do not label your question as “anti-semitic” or “anti-jew” (although without a doubt the connotations of your question are anti-jew). But, would you be kind enough and tell us what were you trying to conclude from the responses that you were to get? What was your hypothesis? Were you trying to prove that Iranian jews are more “Jew” than “Iranian”? Was that specific to Jews or were you trying to conclude Iranian Chritians are more Christian than Iranian?

 Or, maybe your question was indirectly referring specifically to Israel and whether Iranian Jews’ allegiance is with state of Israel or their motherland?. I think I already have answered that question. This is only me, who, in spite of being treated as a second class citizen even in the era of pre-IRI, still places his nationality before his religion. Many other Jews may not like many other Muslims, Bahais, Christians,….etc.

 Having said all these, many on this thread try to absolve IRI from any responsibility in an attack on Iran’s Nuclear facilities. This is entirely shameless when they try to portray themselves as anti-IRI. They put the mask of nationalism on and try to energize the public in support of IRI. They dramatize loss of hundreds of thousands of lives. Israelis destroyed Iraqis and Syrian facilities without anyone having to take even a tylenol for pain. What a shame.

 If you initiated this blog to start a debate about Israel and her policies in the region, then, come out and say it what it is. Don’t hide it under a loaded question to attract more responders.  That’s dishonest.

 Have a good weekend.   

Let the other 97% answer first!

IF this blog is asking a valid and constructive question then, in the following context, let the 97% Muslim Iranians answer it first:

When Iraq invaded Iran, many powers in the region, including Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian Authority came to the help of their “brothers” against Iran.  At the same time, ironically (and a conveniently forgotten fact) Israel provided arms to the Islamic Republic of Iran.  

Now let’s say for strategic reasons, Iran decided to bomb and totally destroy Riyadh, Mecca, and Medina; with or without help from the Israelis.  Would you, as an Iranian Muslim, support such decisions and actions? 

The harbinger of your glorious revolution, Grand Ayatollah Khomeini, said: “We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world.”  -Qom 1980, as quoted in Amir Teheri’s Nest of Spies

Some people in IRI and on this site obviously believe that the patriotism of a few thousand Iranian Jews can be rightfully questioned (based on the 60-year old state of Israel).  Should the patriotism of millions of Iranian Muslims also be justifiably questioned (based on the 1400-year old state of Ummah)?

I was born and raised in Tehran and I am not Jewish nor a Muslim.  My own personal goals and religious duties have always been universal peace, unity, and prosperity of all peoples.  I hope my Muslim friends realize that my questions here are of rhetorical nature and are posed only to demonstrate the prejudicial and harmful nature of such mentality.  I answer my own silly questions by saying NO!  Who am I to question the allegiances of my compatriots based on their religious affiliations?  I hope you don’t bother to answer my questions either.  I do not find such questions valid or constructive.

I adhere to a religion which has taught me that if (my own) religion becomes the cause of enmity and disunity, it is better not to have it! 

Please stop all prejudicial thoughts and insinuations against “others.”

Anvar

Sorry for the late response

Work gets in the way!
First of all, thank you everyone for your comments. My intention was not as some have inferred, to 'stir shit'. It is a simple and fair question given Israel is, as Irandokht has correctly pointed out, the only country in the region threatening to bomb Iran. That coupled with the loyalty I have observed first hand toward Israel, by Jews of all nationalities, raises what I consider to be a very fair question given the volatile state of affairs today. I trust that those who believe there is 'shit to be stirred' must know what you are talking about.
Is it fair to expand the question to all Jews regardless of nationality? Fair, yes I think. Equally relevant? I think not.

Louie Louie: Yes you are right. The question may be hard to answer for many. That is the whole point of raising issues like this- to prompt deeper thought and soul searching and hopefully ending up closer to a better understanding of ourselves as well as each other. Your question to me is also very fair. The answer is I don't condone a military attack by anyone, on anyone unless it is a measured response to the same. I doubt very much that Iran is going to (or can for that matter) launch a military attack on the US. So in that sense it is a hypothetical question whereas Iran / Israel is not.
As to you later post, sorry to hear you are not feeling well. I think regardless of our viewpoints we all share that same feeling.

OnlyIran: "All Iranian Jews will support Israel against Iran if push comes to shove" would have been an accusation. I believe a question is a question regardless of how it may affect your sensitivities (or mine or anyone else's). Calling a simple question a 'shameless display of fascism, anti-Semitism and McCarthyism', and making statements like 'What a shame to see this kind of racism and fascism amongst Iranians who claim to be fair minded and free thinking' etc. ARE however, shameless accusations. It would be nice if we learned that sometimes there is a difference between reality and what WE perceive to be reality. And if Saudi Arabia was threatening to bomb Iran then your question would be fair and appropriate, but it isn't.

Bijan A M: Fair question: Who is pushing and who is shoving? Right now one side is talking a lot of shit. The other is threatening to bomb. You tell me who is doing which. And the blog wasn't directed at you or any particular individual. I would ask anyone a direct question directly if I felt the need to. The question was prompted by my personal experiences over many years of interacting with various ethnic and religious minorities as well as what I have observed on this site in general. I look forward to reading what your thoughts are when you have time to post them.

Cost-of-Progress: For your information, apart from Masjed'e Shah in Esfahan and even then as a tourist, I have never seen the inside of a Mosque. I don't know 'Namaz', couldn't read the Quran if my life depended on it, nor am I in the least bit religious in any other shape or form. Your concerns about Iran's economy are all valid and I share them. I believe you and I have been down this road on another thread already. I can agree to disagree but if you feel the need to repeat yourself be my guest and please excuse me for refraining.

vildemose: I don't know. May be you can post a thread on a site that has a good representation of Jewish Americans and share your findings.

Souri & kharmagas: Thank you for your posts and for seeing the question for what it is and responding accordingly.

KouroshS: The risk/threat of war is not hypothetical, it is very real and has been clearly expressed by both sides. Also, I don't see this as a waste of time. I think there is much to be learned from asking, contemplating and answering difficult questions. Again, this wasn't to 'stir shit' but if there is shit, let's bring out into the open and at least attempt to clean it up and put it behind us instead of sweep it under the rug.

Capt_ayhab: I wouldn't feel degraded if someone asked me if I would put my ethnicity before my nationality! I'd have a very clear answer for it just like you seem to: I am Iranian first and whatever ethnic minority I am second. There are some members of minorities, ethnic or otherwise, who identify more strongly with their ethnicity than they do with their nationality, you can't deny that. It is in fact a source of division in our country that goes back centuries. All this PC stuff and being overly sensitive doesn't help eradicate differences. It just allows differences the opportunity to fester and become much bigger problems. So whilst I am sorry that you feel the way you do, I continue to view open communication as the way to help us understand each other better and overcome the dividing factors.

SamSam: I don't know who or what you are referring to. If to me, then allow me to say here and now that I have never had a different id than this and don't see why people do online! And just FYI I haven't received an email from you, nor do I care to or have time to keep track of multiple id's for anyone.

Mr. Khadivar: I haven't had a chance to check out your link. Is it related to the subject of the thread? For the record, I gather from my limited time here that you are a monarchist. I'm not and for very good and personal reasons as well as ideological ones. Nor do I fit in to the groups that you so fondly speak of at the end of your comment.

Iranokht: Thank you for all of your comments especially for pointing out yet again how any reference to certain subjects here are immediately twisted into things they are not. I guess some things never change. But justice and the humanitarian force and thought will prevail in the end, no doubt about it.

FYI/XERXES: Ren A HAKIM's Screenplay by Darius KADIVAR

It seems Some need to Learn About Their Heritage From Fellow Iraqis who truly appreciate it and respect it More than some Iranians Here  ....

Feel Free to Read :

XERXES: Ren A HAKIM's Screenplay by Darius KADIVAR

KHAK TO SAREH JOMHURYEH ESLAMI VA AHMADINEJADEH NEJAD PARAST !

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you sound so sad...:-(

I know what you mean... I could FEEL it in your words.  Have hope my brother...have hope.

Dear cheh khabar e

I feel so tired. I'm emotionally wrecked. 30 years of ups and downs just makes me sick. I was not old enough to participate in revolution and got caught in something very undesirable and out of my control.

I'm very grateful for living here but part of me is still in Iran. No matter what I do, I just can't forget it. Even though I live in a free society but I feel like a bird in a cage.

I am only going to repeat myself

despite the twisting that is going on here, this is what I said and it did not deserve the reply I received:

I never take side with the aggressor.
Why can't people put human lives first and ahead of their religions, nationalities and prejudices?

But I am not jewish so I don't think my answer is what Holly was looking for.

IRANdokht

Well, I,m going to email that deleted comment about

 the many ID,s of this character to any one and every one then & I,ll tell em about all her ID,s. now try to delete that..or may be I should put it up on my own blog too ;).

Cheers :)!!!

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Louie

I guess I too missed the part where you have EVER indicated that israel was "sacred" to you.  Aggression takes many forms... as evidenced so strongly on iranian.com.  IRI and apologists are just as "aggressive" verbally, yet want to cry foul when someone calls their bluff.  They want to wipe someone off the map yet wonder why they get blasted for making such vile comments!!! 

degrading

Questions like these are degrading to every Iranian Jew, and otherwise for that fact. These type of questions and thoughts only create division among the nation and serve no other constructive purpose.

Religious and ethnic minorities in Iran, [myself being one] we proudly consider ourselves Iranian first, then what ever our ethnicity or religion might be.

-YT 

Oh well, what can I say I've got such dirty mind

I've got some issues you know? I get graphic so you get the point. And please don't tell me you did not mention name of a country, we all know where your grudge is.

And talking about shutting everybody up, see who's talking!!

And why should Iran be threatened for the past 30 years, kerm az khodeh derakhteh and you know it very well.

As an Iranian I don't give .... about Israel or Palestine, if I care about inequality and injustice there are plenty of examples to be worried about.

Have a good weekend.