Capt Ayhab

answer to Anonymous Fish

or the 50 yard line tickets to the clemson-carolina game? is that not prostitution or bribery as well? is it only because a woman is offering a "physical" form of enticement that makes it prostitution?

I don't believe your example rises to the level of prostitution or bribery simply because the value of the "bribe" in question is so low. Had it been a Duke-Carolina Basketball game, however, the case would have been prosecutable in several states!

Anonymous Fish jan

No worry......:o)

No offense taken.

capt_ayhab

dear nadia

i hope you didn't take my comment personal in any way, shape or form.  i was speaking in general.  i have NO doubt that your intergrity shames us all! 

but i have to ask this... captain, if it's your take that these flirtations, late night dinner/drinks, etc. are a form of prostitution... what about the "guy's only" saturday afternoon golf game... or the 50 yard line tickets to the clemson-carolina game?  is that not prostitution or bribery as well?  is it only because a woman is offering a "physical" form of enticement that makes it prostitution? 

i remember a geology professor my 2nd year... good lookin' thing! it was a girls school so we never got dressed up.  heck, half the time we didn't go to class.  but that class?  we were dressed to the nine's and it was always full.  did some girls go to him after class and wink an eye or "bend over" provocatively?  you bet.  so... was that a form of sexual harassment to him?  was his working environment compromised?  sure it was. 

you know... i think we all ARE just animals with basic instincts.  and there is nothing wrong with that.  it's the logic part that gets us in trouble.  sex is nothing new and it's not a dirty word.  it's the only reason we're here and the only thing that keeps life as we know it going.  it's the form of evolution that keeps us (hopefully) progressing beyond the animals that we are...:-)

Ari

You are absolutely correct when it comes to technical and scientific subjects and trade shows. 

Trend have been though, since it is proven that sex sells, many companies start early  by properly training their [front beauties] to be able to answer some questions, and they often have a nerd [affectionately speaking]handy to answer the real tough question.

How ever sad, but true.

Speaking of my own experience of the time when I was in corporate world. Sadly enough these women do not realize that most often than not their tactics backfire and they become a known [putter upper] so to speak. In every industry for example, most of the purchasing agents and purchasing managers know their colleagues in different companies. And when they come across to an [easy] sale rep who would do everything to get the purchase order word goes around. 

In another word, they pass the [merchandise] to their friends in the industry.. Sad but true.

-YT

Marge

[The word prostitute itself is a good example of what I mean by
downgraded. This notion of "sex sells" but "i'm not a prostitute
because I'm just showing my boobs, not letting you touch them" is another good one. We all do this one way or another. It's all about
evolution to me. The lady with the nice big boobies generally has a better chance not only of getting promoted, but also of having a
wealthier spouse (even if she herself is independently wealthy). She is usually able to have children, and wealthier ones who have health care, nutritiion and education.]

You are so brutally right that I dare not agree or disagree. However by fully agreeing to this statement we are in fact ignoring the rightful places for both male and females who are qualified to do the job.

Give you an example, there was a time back in 70's and early 80's that employers required applicant to submit photo of themselves and of their spouses. Philosophy behind it was that higher up management MUST be presentable and easy on the eye. Same went for their spouses. Of course with advent of fair employment acts and such these practices has been more or less abandoned.

If we were to only consider this sorts of behavior[Bj for raise, and booty call for PO] as natural selection, or survival of the fittest, then we are basically equating human beings to mere animals who are driven by only sexual instincts rather than mind and logic.

Sexual favors in school and universities take a different form of course. In an study done by Daniel Kruger, scientist at the University of Michigan School of Public Health shows that even rich students are willing to exchange sex for grade or other goodies. 

This research shows  that wealthy college students will trade sexual favors to get what they want. Researchers interviewed 475 undergraduate students and discovered that 25% of them would exchange sexual currency for provisions. The attempted trades included: tickets to the University of Michigan vs.
Ohio State game, studying assistance, laundry washed, a Louis Vuitton bag and voice lessons.

Question: If a professor obliges..... what does that make him/her?

-YT

capt_ayhab

my take

My own personal take is, flirtation, late dinner/drink date in order to get a purchase order signed by prospective buyer is to me nothing but bribery. In these case instead of [under the table money] some kind of [under the table oral service] might be rendered.

Asides from it moral issues[services for money - prostitution] it is unethical to say the least. It undermines the fair product representation. 

How prevalent is it????? This thing has gotten to a point that most of the purchasing managers of companies, specially if it is a government entities, will outright ask for sexual favor in order to sign any purchase order. No wonder many companies are having hard time keeping inventory cost and expenses in manageable levels.

-YT

P/S kindly forgive my grammar today, i feel like I can't write worth of sh!t today >:|

Great Topic!

As you presented those definitions, Captain, having sex to get that promotion or huge purchase order is a form of prostitution.

Of course, general society doesn't see it as clear-cut as that, but, I guess that's for another thread.  :-)

Natalia

you say defensively [ Before anyone says anything about my behavior or dress code. I actually
went out of my way to dress as covered up in these instances and
behaved as proper a lady as possible.]

Dress has nothing to do with the behavior of some unprofessional instructors. Most certainly your dress was more than appropriate for the class.

These type of unprofessional[to say the least] acts in the parts of men in power, particularly instructors only exhibits their obnoxious behavior of wanting to take advantage of an student vulnerabilities, in this case favor for better grade. 

According to by-laws and policies of every learning institution, these type of behavior is against the law, let alone morality of an instructor.

With that said, there are, on daily basis, instances that for some reason or another, students, male or female, develop [crush] on thier teachers. Now most often than not these types of crush's are mere infatuations rather than true romance. Exception should be noted that there are numerous occasions that younger students have developed long term romantic relation with their teachers which often has resulted in marriage, despite huge difference in age. These type of relationship are totally outside the scope of our conversations.

-YT

Well actually Anonymous fish it was.......

Well, actually it was a one night a week type of class due to my work schedule.

Knowing, I only had to put up with it one night a week helped get me through that semester. :o) I also made sure to never be left alone with him.

By the way, I made a B in that class. I was very proud of the way that I handled the whole situation. Actually, it was very mature for a 19 year old. :o)

as far as being sexually harassed

no... not ever.  i've been hit on at work, sure.  but not ever from a co-worker or superior.  but i know absolutely that i've had an extremely fortunate career.  i worked with a company for over 22 years, starting right after college.  i literally grew up with these guys.  they were and are my best friends today.  we were like a family and were (and are) very affectionate with one another.  i remember something from my second job (of over 8 years).  one of the partners was a lawyer and kinda prim and proper.  during one particularly grueling project, i had a brain storm and he was extremely happy... said something like, if i didn't think it would be considered sexual harassment, i'd hug you.  i was like... say what?  hugging me is sexual harassment?  i know it's a problem for many women but i've never experienced it and to me... to ME... i think it can be abused by woman way too easily.

romances between co-workers can and do happen.  some can be very successful.  but to me the problem with a work romance is that you're substituting real emotional feelings with the convenience of being together all day long.  you can bitch about your partner and someone understands it.  i think these kind of romances are doomed for failure.

virtually every mammal uses their sexuality in order to attract something or some one.  there isn't anything wrong with it.  good god, that's what marketing is all about.  look around you!  but when it invades one person's comfort level, then it's wrong. 

as far as nadia's examples.  that's "iffy".  if a professor has a crush on a student, chill out till the end of the class, then pursue it if you think the feeling is mutual.  not to minimize her experience but a class is only a semester long.  2 - 3 classes a week.  you come in, you do your work, you brush off the offending overture and you go about your business. 

as captain said, harassment is about power.  it's nothing new and doubtfully will ever go away. 

Marge

On a different note, your point is well made, there's plenty of data to suggest good looking people have an easier time at work (and elsewhere.)

it is unethical, captain

I don't have time to read all the other comments unfortunately but it is a provocative thread so I couldn't resist.

It is not just the question of harassment, there may not be any harassment at all and the liaison might be consensual for promotion purposes and enjoyable too. The most important issue is the abuse of power which affects other employees of that organisation. Getting promotion through sexual favours would be at the expense of someone else who did not sell him or herself for promotion or was not considered attractive enough so was never approached for promotion!! IT IS UNETHICAL.

You know capt_ayhab does have a point........

It was not the only incident in my youth. I had to actually drop a computer class because my tutor was more interested in me than tutoring me in computers.

Before anyone says anything about my behavior or dress code. I actually went out of my way to dress as covered up in these instances and behaved as proper a lady as possible.

Instead, they became even more interested in me.

Sexual harrassment does occur and so does sex for promotion. There are also legal and not just ethical issues involving this.

p/s

Derakhshandeh jan

If you notice the response from Natalia jun you will see my exact point.

-YT

Derakhshandeh

Thanks for even sillier response ;-)

Fact of the matter is, more women might not even recognize the fact that they are being harassed. That is why many companies have educational classes to educate people specially young women who might be new in the job market.

get it sir/madam?

-YT

Well it is complicated.........

For example, I was taking a math class at university in which I noticed that my professor had become shall we say a little too sweet with me.

I was just a naive, sweet, very attractive 19 year old.

 All I wanted to do is learn the math to not only help me in my future math classes but also did not want to be failed simply because I would not reciprocate his attentions.

No, I was never interested in him and never mislead him. (Just in case anyone was wondering)

 I simply think it is unethical to become involved with one's professor while you are in his class.

*****************

However, if say a semester or two passes by and they do find they like each other then they can date. Right?

the subject is evolving...:-)

it's branching in other directions so i'll try to be succinct (me?  HA)

Are you trying to say that getting promotion in exchange of sex should be considered as ‘sexual harassment’?  i couldn't speak for natalia but for myself, absolutely not.  if the employee initiated sex for a promotion, there is no harassment.  if the employee were pressured to accept sex, that's flat out illegal.

oops.  boss is coming in.  back for more on harassment...:-)

"Have you ever been sexually

"Have you ever been sexually harassed? and if so what did you feel about it?"

What a silly question Capitaan.

Natalia

Allow me please to ask you an honest question, As a matter of fact allow me ask all the ladies the same question:

Have you ever been sexually harassed? and if so what did you feel about it?

-YT

Natalia

There might be a bit of misunderstanding in my statement.

The situation I brought up are not considered as Sexual Harassment per se since I was in all those situation in a higher position then the ladies.

In another word, I was referring to on the job flirtation by i.e my assistant, my students, and sales reps, etc etc.  I doubt if these are considered Sexual Harassment, or are they. Actually some men consider these highly flattering, or am I wrong?

As definition Sexual Harassment, and unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment,
unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.

Besides the subject I am trying to touch upon here is not about Sexual Harassment, rather about various sexual proposition made, particularly in the part of employee. I am certain you have heard the terminology [sleeping ones way to the top].

-YT

sorry for delay

Persian Westerner:

It is highly unlikely for a work place to have all male employees. Although the ratio might be skewed toward male dominated workplace. Having a gay boss and/or female boss is quite conceivable and in these situations it is quite plausible that proposition for sex to be made by either parties.

I have tried to make the question and discussion gender free[so to speack]. For instance, in past few years you might have noticed in the news the scandals regarding the beautiful female middle school teachers who have been sexually intimate with 14, 15 or 16 year old male students.

Fishie: 

As there is attraction for men in positions of power, same could be said for the women in the positions of power. 

One fact must be considered, normally men are intimidated by women in the power positions. but attraction of women to the men can be looked at in more than one angle:

It is quite normal that some sort of romance might be created between genders in work place. In another word, a real attraction between the parties involved. These are exceptions and outside the scope. BUT, are all the attractions and subsequent intimacies just for money?

-YT

I do not Cam. I consider us DOWNgraded animals

Because DESPITE that intelligence, we still do this stuff. Maybe if you have enough confidence in the system that you work in, you wouldn't risk it by promoting people on the basis of oral sex and quickies. Not you Cam, but those who do. 

And evolution isn't survival of the fittest. It's natural selection. The people with power who do this, are permitting those who also subscribe to upgrade - then the cycle repeats as those oral sex champions go higher up. 

The word prostitute itself is a good example of what I mean by downgraded. This notion of "sex sells" but "i'm not a prostitute because I'm just showing my boobs, not letting you touch them" is another good one. We all do this one way or another. It's all about evolution to me. The lady with the nice big boobies generally has a better chance not only of getting promoted, but also of having a wealthier spouse (even if she herself is independently wealthy). She is usually able to have children, and wealthier ones who have health care, nutritiion and education.

This idea about prostitution doesn't cover it. It's evolution. ALL of it. Attractive, sexy people will always get the best and that's our new evolution in my opinion.  

Evolutionary system?

If by that you are referring to the notion of survival of the fittest – which to me sounds like it and please do correct me if I am assuming wrong - then I must say, that one of the things that separates humans from animals is intelligence which among other things gives rise to concepts such as morality and ethics; concepts that serve as regulators for a harmonic co-existence, but most importantly spiritual development.I truly hope you do not consider humans as upgraded animals.

are we evolved enough to deny these urges?

some might be, some aren't. But what's strange is the ones who do make it to the "top" or higher in order to promote, are screwing up the evolutionary system by doing this. But maybe we aren't as evolved as we think anyway?

Prostituation is in the eye of the beholder!

Prostituation is in the eye of the beholder! It depends on how the parties enaging in sexual relations define their act. It is meaningless how we define it. Free country, right?

It is about ethics

Ethics Dear Capt. Thank you for opening such an interesting debate. What you have touched upon goes far beyond the obvious issue of sexual favors in return for promotion and/or a good business deal.  It touches upon a corporate culture which lacks any ethical code imbedded in it.Sexual favor at the work place is just ONE symptom of the lack of ethics in organizations.  However, since its effect is more elusive and intangible in the sense that it does not affect the wellbeing of the masses the way that for instance cooking the books, price fixing or insider trading does, then people do not take it as seriously as they should – unless of course it is coerced and thus regarded as a criminal act.Sexual favors at the work place for the sake of favors are just another form of bribery.  Do we want to take it one step further and not only call it bribery but also prostitution?  I think it is; both when it comes to males and females (please note that I am not referring to people falling in love, but engaging in an intimate relationship to enhance their career – in one way or another).Yet, there is no law that prohibits it.  In other words people engaged in such activity voluntarily are not breaking the law but they don’t follow an ethical code of conduct either.  The problem is that there is no well defined ethical code of conduct in the organizations.  That is in countries with strong unions and employment laws preventing abuse and exploitation of the employees.  In some other countries, it seems that sexual favors come with the job.Some years ago I worked in Dubai as a management consultant and witnessed the most horrific cases where the owner of a chain restrain called ‘Golden Fork’ would pick any of the Pilipino girls working for him at night.  These girls could not do anything because, 1- there was no law protecting them 2- upon their arrival on a work visa, their passports were taken from them 3- could not seek employment elsewhere (due to their work visa)  4- if fired they would not be able to return to Dubai for 5 years, 5- despite working 12 hours shifts 6 days a week they were on a salary of 1200 Dirham per month, meaning that they had no savings to return home and start again. Regards,
Cameron   

I think the key term in

I think the key term in this context is ‘willingness’. Moreover, whether the employee is able to get the promotion by usual  and fair process as it is applied to others; also should be taken to the consideration.

If by any means, the employee would think that getting the benefit or promotion only comes with a sexual favour as an imposed and obligatory mean, this is more likely resemble as sexual harassment (i think). Btw, this discussion (perhaps inevitably) goes in to legal territory which is beyond the field of my expertise. Thanks Natalia, I never thought of it this way.

Ari, I agree with you.

Persian Westender

I was initially referring to part of the statement made by capt_ayhab in which he states the following:

"Have I been propositioned by any of them, whether being female sales reps or my own employee? Yes I have. Have I been flirted [outright] by them? Yes I have. Particularly younger ladies."

He was sexually harrassed because it was an unwanted situation. Unless he enjoyed this attention. Hmmmmmmmm

 I think in the case that you speak of, if the person does not get the promotion or whatever gain they expected then they claim it to be sexual harrassment. They sue the company and the individual who allegedly harrassed them.