ISLAMOPHOBIA

Dr. Pourandokht

I wonder what you learned during the time you were spending in a university or universities to get your doctoral degree. But, clearly, whatever you learned did not include fair-mindedness, rationality, wisdom, but did include one-sidedness, .....

Who should declare Mecca, a land populated only by muslims, a free zone? Clearly, you seem to think that as soon as you and people like you do not like something, you should just take it over. Why not Vatican, or the Western Wall (do you know where it is), or .....

Who should rewrite Ghoran? You? You do not seem to be able to read things in their proper context, if at all, let alone rewriting something.

Mehdi Naa Mazloom

And here is why you are lieing or not telling the complete story:

1. USA: Absolutely nothing justifies the horrendous terrorist attacks. But, as presidential candidates Ron Paul, Dennis Kocinich, and Ralph Nader, and many other people (all all American people) have said,
the US has supported the worst regimes in the Islamic world FOR DECADES, from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan, not to mention overthrowing Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh's government in Iran, and the fact that Osama bin Laden's gang was the same Mojahedin group in the 1980s, created by the US to fight the Soviets.

2. Russian forces have killed over 200,000 muslims in Chechnya.

3. The Australian government has been treating the muslims as undesireable for years, because it wants to be a white, European-style country. It even killed its own aboriginal people, and was forced to apologize. Besides, rapes happen everywhere, including over 2 million annually in the US. Muslim girls are raped by non-muslims all the time. The colonialists raped entire muslim nations. Why is this particularly significant?

4. Sri Lanka: Muslims are a tiny minority there. They have been murdered by the hindu majority for DECADES.

5. Singapore: Same as in Sri Lanka.

6. Malaysia: I do not know anything about. I could not find anything on the internet.

7. Kashmir, muslim state controlled by the minority Hindu government, has been suffering under their rule ever since 1948. Hindus have forced muslims to emigrate, and have taken their lands and properties in order to create a Hindu Kashmir.

8. It is the Hindus who blow up trains full of muslims and kill hundreds of them at once. It is the Hindus that kill muslims every day in India. It is the Hindus that threaten to blow up mosques to build their temples there. Have you heard about them? Check the internet and compare with your own claims, before opening your mouth.

9. Muslims in the Phillipines have been discriminated against for a century. They live in the most fertile part of the country, yet they do not get any part of their resources. That is why they demand independence.

10. This is the first time anyone claims a genocide in Somalia against non-existent Christians. But the Christian Etiopia, with support of the US, has attacked and occupied Somalia.

11. True, but Christians have also killed thousands of muslims by forces led by John Garang.

12. Serbia? Where in Serbia? This is pure fabrication. Plus, it is outrageous, because Serbian fascists killed hundreds of thousands of their muslim population in the 1990s. Remember Bosnia and Herzegovina? Oh, of course, you do not. You just got amnesia.

13. See 12.

14. Who started the carnage in Iraq? The Christian fundamentalist George W. Bush ordered the illegal and criminal invasion of Iraq. The rest is history. Read it, before opening your mouth.

15. This is another outrageous claim. The Palestinian land was taken by the Zionists in 1948, killing thousands of them, and creating a refugee problem of several millions. The rest of Palestine has been suffering under the apartheid regime that Israel has set up there. Just yesterday 156 palestinians under the age of 156 were killed in Gaza by Israeli forces.

16. Two million Indonesians were murdered in the 1960s by the military regime of Suharto, backed by the US.

17. ? Just to fatten the list?

18. Muslims enslave who? Almost everybody is muslim in Bangladesh. Why do you not talk about all the discrimination that goes on in the West everyday?

19. And who props up the regime in Saudi Arabia that funds the Wahabi and Salafi schools that are breeding grouds for radicalism? The US!

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I can go on with this, but the reader, not you Mehdi the exaggerator and fabricator, gets the picture.

Pot calling the kettle

Pot calling the kettle black. The Dutch have created some of the most disgusting atrocities in the world. They have only recently become self actualized. Lest we forget the colonialism and world dominance they wielded for over 4 centuries. The Dutch East Indian Company held colonies every where including Southern Iran before they lost it to the Portuguese. Ah and those innocent South Africans that had to deal with their bullshit for 400 years. I love that some asshole in Holland now feels the right to cast a stone. Their history is riddled with enslavement. Listen anybody who believes in god in my book is pretty whacky. But to create a movie castigating millions of people just to get a rise. Regardless if your a Muslim, a Jew, a Shinto or god forbid a Dutch reform.
PS: Not to sound like a snooty American but went to Amsterdam last year. Not impressed. The canals stunk to high heaven and the food sucked ass.

ISLAMOPHOBIA

Folks,
Once again an agent of the Islamic Republic comes up with an idea that anything that goes wrong in the world the blame is put on this monstrous ideology of Islam.
Coming from Sharifabad,Ardakan of Yazd,Iran and being a minority I have experienced the atrocities that were committed and are bieng committed on the minority Zarthosti population living there. My father Bahram Rostamian Sharifabad called Khomeni a wild dog.
The Zarthosti population of Yazd is still treated as Najis by the Pak Iranian Shia. Employment is denied to Zarthosti youth in Yazd. The Zarthosti cannot drink from the same water tap as the Pak Shia muslims.
This is the same condition in other countries where there are non muslim minority populations.
When the muslims come to the West particularly those from countries such as Pakistan,Bangladesh, Arab countries they are in a shock seeing the difference in the standard of living. And then they see the minorities of there countries who have come here doing well. This turns them off and as they cannot move forward they move backward and in the belief that if they become Shahid they will go to heaven and enjoy with the virgins.
Muslims should respect other faiths before any respect is given to muslims. The koran should be written again and all the nonsense about Kafars and Jihad should be deleted.
Mecca should be declared a free zone with bars and sex joints for all who would like to go there and have a bottle of whisky next to the Kibla and enjoy the veiw of the pious muslims doing their rituals.
It is then only that the muslims will be respected.
Dr Pourandokht Rostamian of Sharifabad,Yazd
Now in Vancouver, BC Canada.

HERE ARE THE REASONS FOR ISLAM BASHING

Soroush, I hate to do that to you. But it is time for good and honest Muslims like to see the reality. All these murderer thugs, claimed to represent the same Islam to which you and others believe in.

1. USA - Muslims on 9/11 attack on WTC in NY. Kills 3000 innocent civilians.
2. RUSSIA - Muslims attack in Moscow theater killed 118 innocent civilians. Kill 530 innocent women & children in a school.
3. AUSTRALIA – An immigrant Muslims from Lebanon, gang rape an Australian girl.
4. SRI LANKA - Muslims attack Christians Hindu and Chinese, causing riots and death and destruction
5. SINGAPORE - Muslims attacking Christians Hindu and Chinese
6. MALAYSIA - Muslims attack Christians and Hindus and Chinese.
7. KASHMIR - Muslims burn Hindus, constant attacks on innocent people.
8. INDIA - Muslims blow up temples full of people. Constant attacks on innocent people.
9. PHILIPPINES - Muslims kidnap rape and kill Western civilians. Demanding for separate Islamic state. Abu Sayyaf kills 182 Western tourists in Bali resort.
10. SOMALIA - Muslims committing genocide on Christians (all dead or gone)WOMEN AND KIDS ENSLAVED killing UN aid workers.
11. SUDAN - Muslims also committing Genocide on Christians in Darfur region. Killing UN aid workers
12. SERBIA - Muslims attack Christian Serbs and churches.
13. BOSNIA & HERZEGOVINA - Muslims Bomb churches beating Christians
14. IRAQ - Muslims Kill neighboring Muslims and infidels oppressing all non-Islamics.
15. ISREAL – Muslim-Palestinians slaughter Jewish civilians and children.
16. INDONESIA - Muslims murder “infidels”, teachers and destroy churches (Christmas eve) and ethnic homes and businesses. Rape and attack Christians
18. BANGLADESH - Muslims kidnap enslave, murders, bombings.
19. SAUDI ARABIA - Muslims hijacked US planes and fly into populated buildings, oppression of all other religion and killing opponents. Kill other Muslims in a Car Bombing.
20. YEMEN - Muslims blow up USS ships (Cole) and attack foreign nationals.
21. CHINA - Muslims undermine the governments slow acceptance of capitalism with guerrilla attacks on industry and usual threats and harassment
22. PAKISTAN - Muslims attack and kill foreign civilians and other innocent Christians trying to assist
23. SIERRA LEONE - Muslims slaughter of Christians.
24. UGANDA - Muslims genocide of Christians, Muslims calling for separate state.
25. RWANDA - Muslims genocide of Christians, calling for separate Islamic state
26. ZIMBABWE - Muslims murder Christians, deportations and harassment
27. CONGO - Muslims Murder Christians. Demanding for separate Islamic state
28. NIGERIA - Muslims kill Christians. Again calling for separate Islamic state.
29. NAMIBIA - Muslims committing genocide of Christians. Calling for separate Islamic state
30.SOUTH AFRICA - Muslims persecute Christians. Calling for separate Islamic state
31.ALGERIA - Muslims behead Christian priests, churches destroyed. Demanding Sharia Law throughout the country.
32. ENGLAND - Muslims in Race riots 2001 get ready for more! Beating up innocent old ladies and men and killing and raping teens.
33. AZERBAIJAN - Muslims harass Christians are jailed, deported or killed. Churches burned or boarded up
34. IVORY COAST - Muslims commit genocide of Christians
35.CHECHNYA - Muslims blow up police stations and churches, killing telecoms workers and innocents.
36. AFGHANISTAN - Muslims (Islamists) attack Americans and killing each other over fundamentalist Islamic Rule.
37. SPAIN – Muslims blow up a commuter train killing 192 innocent civilians.
38. IRAQ – Muslims kidnap, and kill other Muslims, as well as non-Muslims who came to help them. 200,000 so far and counting.
39. ENGLAND: 07 July 2005. Muslims blow themselves up in subway station, and Bus in the heart of London. Score of innocent people die.
40. EGYPT. August, 2004 & 2005. Muslims blow up hotels in Sinai Peninsula. Score of tourist from Europe are killed.
41. HOLLAD: November 2004. A Moroccan Muslim murders Dutch film director Van Gogh, for producing a film about real life of Muslim women.
42. IRAN: This country's highest religious & political authority denies the Holocasuet and call for elimination of the Jewish state of Israel.

TO DON

Lesson number one for you about Iranian: we are extremly proctective of each other when confronted by people like you despite our religion background.

I think you are trying to disturb the unity between different iranian religious group on this site which is so unchristian of you.

So please know each and every one of us iranian (muslims, christian, jews, bahais, zoroasterain) will back each other up because we are all iranian. Ther are good and bad people in every religion, country, and race but we are all God's children.

I did not really want to get involve on this blog but you sound like a dictator and keep wanting to criticize other people's life and way of living. You think with your sarcastic remarks you actually sound smarter and knows whats best, so unchristian of you.
If it wasn't beacuse of US and british foreign policy the whole world would be a better place now and all the nations would live in peace. Unfortunately the US and Britian keep sticking their nose where they don't belong and other nations have been reacting strongly to all of this. The sad thing is everyone's excuse is in the name of God and religion when in fact it's just for our own selfish benefits as human beings.

May peace will find it's way to your heart and soul.

Father Don

You support of McCain said it all. You can not hide behind Jesus or Oregon any more. Watch the video of your brother in action in Fluja! You shouldn't miss this. I am sure it will put more smiles on your face father Don. The Article is IRAQ McCain is right. Go to: by Hamid.

Before I forget! I talked to Jesus yesterday while we were having tea. I asked him what was the deal with you dying for people's sins. He shook his head and said, When God sent me, I told people that I am here to show you the path to God, but people through rocks at me. Then to prove myself, I cured the blind and gave life to dead. All of the sudden those same people who didn't accepted me called me God and end up causing my crucifixion. So, in a way I did dye for their sin. The sin of making me God, while I was just a messenger, by another definition son of god. He said still after so many years people like father Don, bush, Chaney, and others don't get it and think they can sin and commit crimes because I dyed for their sins. He asked me to tell you that you are all got it wrong and are in a big trouble and he will punish you. He knows that you all don't believe in him and it is all business.
Can you see me smiling Father Don?

Smile, it is a good thing to do.

by Dariush (not verified) on Sat Apr 12, 2008 05:14 PM CDT

I see you want to drag other humans in chain.

Don responds:

I take it you do not know much about USA criminal law.  You can look up some common codes found below.  Pay special attention to chapters 163 and 164, these are offences against persons, and offenses against property. If any person breaks these codes then they will be arrested, and brought before a judge/Jury for trial. 

Being placed in “chains” is a common figure of speech.  It means confine and contain a person so they can be brought to justice. It can also mean an indictment as a speeding ticket; the document forces the person’s behavior (chained) to show up in court for accounting. 

Every USA State, and the USA constitution, has  a method to take a president or governor (and other officials) out of office before their term is up. Once being impeached and removed, if the person does not leave, the person can be arrested (placed in chains) for at least trespassing.    

Oregon Revised Statutes

//www.leg.state.or.us/ors/

I looked for the video that you mentioned but I could not find it. I did find this.  It shows some history of the US and troop deployment, and how long we have been in other nations for them to stabilize.  McCain has a valid point that the US will not be out of Iraq any time soon.

Personally, we need to be in Iraq for at least four more years, no matter what the cost. Many USA people are sick and tired of the terrorist in the Middle East brought on by Jihad Muslims, thugs, and criminals.  This crap is going to end, Israel is not going anywhere, and Israel better clean up their act also.  

//www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/jonathan_last/20080302_One_Last_Thing__McCain_is_right_about_Iraq.html

As to my State of Oregon,  USA--- it is a beautiful place and the people are really nice. We have the total representation of every nationality, and every religion in the world, and we get along just fine. Amazing how that works out, who would believe it. We must be doing something right. 

It must be our elected secular government and our equality of laws. In addition, we do not allow any Jihad preaching, that is called hate speech, so Islam has to change.  I love forcing the “all-powerful” gods to obey Oregon Law.

Smile it does a body good.

Don

Love

I am not an expert in Islam, but from what I have heard. When prophet Mohammad came back with his disciples from war, Mohammad told his disciples now you need to get ready for the great jihad. They asked which war is that? He said the jihad with temptations, Speaking the truth, helping poor, praying, making peace with others, justice, being kind to others and ......

So the lesson is that being a humane person in Islam is a greater achievement than fighting. However defending yourself is also needed.

If you read Quran you will see that fighting to defend yourself is only small part of it. The best way is to read it. Then when you practice it with all your heart you reach to a point as it says in a prayer.

God, "I can stand the fire, but how can I stand to be away from you".
If one understands it, This is the ultimate love.

But, how can a wulture understand why butterfly circles around light. He must become a butterfly to understand it.

Peace

Don, you do not know much about Shiite Islam

Don:

With all due respect, you do not seem to know much about Islam and, in particular, Shiism. If you knew better, you would not write what you have written. Let me explain.

(i) All people in Shiite Islam are divided into three groups:

1. The marja' (true ayatollahs) - those who have reached a level of knowledge that common people who do not know the answers to their questions can ask them and follow them. However, a marja' does not become one, unless accepted by people. No one appoints anybody as a marja'. No one tells anybody who your marja' should be. It is up to you, if you want to have one.

2. People who are not knowledgeable enough to decide for themselves. Just as people go to a doctor, a dentist, an engineer, a CPA, etc., to solve their problems for them. But, once again, no one tells anyone who to go to, if at all.

3. But, the most important category is the third group: Those who have reached that level of knowledge that decide for themselves what is wise and rational. These people are called "MOHTAAT."

Nothing prevents anybody to be in the 3rd category. It is up to people to get themselves to that level. There is no "certificate," no school to go to. You just decide for yourself. As a practicing muslim, I am one. I follow my own knowledge, rationale, and wisdom. In short, I am a mohtaat.

(ii) In Shiite Islam all Islamic teachings are divided into two groups:

1. The Primary Teachings (Ahkaam-e Avvaliyeh): These are those that can never be changed. The important point is, there are not many of them. Believing in God, believing in the Judgement Day, believing in the Prophet, daily prayers, fasting, Islamic taxes, believing in Emaamat, etc. But, even here, you can temporarily stop believing or practicing these. You must not fast if it is bad for your health. You can deny that you are a muslim, if declaring to be one endangers your life.

2. The rest - the Secondary teachings or Ahkaam-e Saanaviyeh - are subject to interpretations, according to the needs of a society. In fact, that is why Shiism has both ayatollahs and the mohtaats. They can reinterpret the teachings, because the needs of a society and its people are dynamic and change all the time.

(iii) Jihad is not what you claim it to be. Jihad can be anything but not terrorism:

1. If you help the poor, that is jihad.

2. If you help the deprived, the exploited, that is jihad.

3. If you help people to change their life for the better, that is jihad.

4. If you help in any way or shape the betterment of your country, that is jihad.

5. And, yes, if you defend your country and your religion, that is Jihad. But that does not authorize anybody to commit murder, to commit terrorism, and to deprive other people of their rights. Even then, that must be done within the borders of your homeland. What is wrong with that?

Just because an extremely tiny minority commits crimes in Islam's name does not condemn the religion itself. Just because this tiny minority says they are Jihadists does not imply that they are. They are not true muslims; just bunch of terrorists. Surely, muslims have a lot of justified grievances against the West, but terrorism is not the solution.

Read the Torah. It is full of the most brutal teachings.

Look at what the Christians have done throughout the history.

Look at what Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and Hindu fundamentalists do today:

1. Christian fundamentalists are the core base of support for the Republican Party in the US and its intervensionist foreign policy. George W. Bush is one, and he has proudly proclaimed so. The same is true for most, if not all, the right-wing parties in Europe and South and Central America.

They attempt to impose their way of life on everybody, from abortion and gay rights, to even teaching evolution in schools, to preventing distribution of condomes in Africa for AIDS prevention.

They have been the most ardent supporters of Iraq's invasion. They provided the "moral" justification for the murders of millions of people during the cold war under the banner of "fighting the Godless communists."

2. Jewish fundamentalists have deprived Palestinians of their nation, their land, their home. They have set up an apartheid system in Palestinians' land.

3. Hindu fundamentalists murder, on a large scale, muslim in India.

Quite frankly, the most prograssive religion, in its fundamental structure (not what some of the reactionary ayatollahs say), is Shiite Islam. The flexibility of Shiism is amazing.

Don

I see you want to drag other humans in chain. What happened to love again? Is this what Jesus was teaching? So you are not any better than mullahs. Yet you are a preacher. You are a preacher in church, right? The way you advertised Oregon first I said you must be a real estate broker trying to sell real estate, but when you said in my community, I knew you are a preacher.
What do you think about the video? About what your christian brothers are doing?
Ahmadinejad said something, but Israel an US are doing it, so who is the criminal? Do you judge people by what they say or what they do? What do you think Jesus or Moses would say if they were alive today? It is all about the piece of pie right?

to Javidiran, you said

You said:

P.S. WE are all true Iranians(jews,muslims,christians, bahais, and zoroasterains) but most of all we are all human beings!

Don:

You are right and should not have been a post script but rather head lines.

Your words of wisdom, an undisputable fact, is something Mohammad, and the Koran has to learn, and should be taught by any Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist and by all human kind.   We are humans, with indisputable rights to believe, think, study, and learn as we desire; we have rights to prosper, we have the rights to talk, organize, and express our views as any other.

When wrongs are found we DEMAND to be tried by a jury of our peers of other humans, and NOT in discrimination nor bias.  We demand ONE LAW for men and women, and to ALL humans in equal fairness, as in the law we ALL the same creatures on this earth that seek the many  goods.

So when are you going to drag the Mullahs in Iran out of office, in chains,  and make them pay for the suppression, and pathetic,  violation of common human rights? That NO man, NO woman, NO person, is greater than another, as we live in “blind justice” to the powerful, to race, to national origin, to religion, to sexual gender, and to physical  disabilities.

The Iran Mullahs,  and your president, are wanting to nuke the world if they can get the technology, because the Koran says to kill the Jews, Christians, all non-believers  in a book god.

Here in the West we desire that the Iranians, the Persians,  the common "lovely" people of your land,  take care of this problem, and do it in short order, and establish your Human Indisputable Rights.

As to the rest of human relations, in peace we can figure it out as go threw this life not hurting others.

By the way,  Mr. Khan gave me a web site of information.  Accordingly, I found this essay:
 

Islam, Revelation and Prophethood
 
An interview with Abdulkarim Soroush
 
about the Expansion of Prophetic Experience

Found here:

//www.drsoroush.com/English/Interviews/E-INT-Islam,%20Revelation%20and%20Prophethood.html

An excellent read for Muslims, Christians and Atheist alike. Too bad it is BANNED in Islam---but NOT banned in the West.

This same argument has been made since the 1500’s and before, to this date,  by notable people as Thomas Paine,  Copy, Russell,  Gödel,  and Robert Green Ingersoll, to name a few.  The difference is this argument is made by a devout Muslim, about Mohammad and the Koran, and putting things in proper perspective. 

I hope you take the time to review it.  I thank you Mr. Khan for the information, and there is more to read that you posted.

You have a very good day.

Don

Don / JavidIran

I don't know if your comments are answers to my question or someone else's. They sure had nothing to do with my question. But if you go to "IRAQ, McCain IS RIGHT" where Ben has spit his guts out, Mr. Hamid has attached a video for Ben and you all. Please be patient and watch to the end because it gets more interesting as it goes!!! I recommend to everyone to see it!!! These are the Christians that have not read the bad pages in your Holly bible because TJ cut them out. Imagine if he hadn't cut the bad pages out. It is full of love and compassion for other human beings.
I hope they make you proud. I am sure as usual you all have an excuse.

JavidIran,
Thenk you for your answer. I am with you, we should be united not divided. Peace

Dear Dariush

I'm not even going to answer your questions because you are full of hate and negative comments. You are still trying to prove yourself. Enough with your name caling!!! I'm just proiran regardless of my faith.

SO chill out my muslim friend because the truth will find a way and history speaks for itself.

P.S. WE are all true Iranians(jews,muslims,christians, bahais, and zoroasterains) but most of all we are all human beings!

Does this answer your question?

5. And finally, you have not answered my main question:
Who is occupying whose country? who is bombing who? who is killing human beings on a mass scale? who is robbing the riches of other people? who is helping the dictators in the Islamic countries to stay in power?

Don:

Let us assume you are talking about Iraq.  The USA of course. I certainly know what war is all about; bloody, mostly bore on backs of  innocent people, that are fed lies from the start, are ignorant, and have no powers others wise of prevention.

The Iraq war is the ongoing saga of the the West, the USA as the new commer, in all of history for over 3,000 years of fighting against those that destroy human rights, and enslave others;  be it in the name communism, socialism, Hitler, Pole Pot, and most assuredly Islam.

The errors of the USA are many as our own slavery, which was eliminated by our civil war, and the upraising of women in this country to gain the right to vote in 1920. Include in our errors was suppressing the right to have labor unions, unions fought back and won, as is the right of the people to organize themselves..  Let us mention our legal wars in separation of Church and State, and up holding the USA constitution granting human rights.  You might as well throw in the destruction of the American Indians on the pile of our errors and sins, but as of this date NO ONE better harm a hair on their head.  

Certainly, the USA is not a god, and does not have clean hands.  Nevertheless, the USA will not give into terror, and the standards of freedom will not be compromised, but rather improved, raise the bar higher.   Bush felt he had cause to jump into Iraq and Afghanistan.   I fault him for not being strong enough, and dragging these wars out, as clearly more innocent people get killed.

If you want to use the “tit for tat” argument, Islam has been a horrible aggressor in the last 1400 years.  The A-1 killer of human rights, this is Islam.  Islam is nothing but governmental tyranny under the name of a god, that is all it is. Just as the Catholic Church drove Europe into the dark ages for a thousand years, so is Islam. The Christian cultic religion also had to be destroyed, and forced to change its evil ways.         

War is all about money and power.  We hope this power will be used to improve humanity, and money can be made in other ways. Wars are to be avoided at all cost, as we have other means of persuasion other than killing---called education, access to the courts, and voted on laws, that can be repealed if found unworthily of a free people.  

Islam can lay down and stop its tyranny to the common man and lady, at any time, or it will be forced to do so. As it goes, Islam has been loosing ground by leaps and bounds since about 1500 from its high point in history. Afghanistan has fallen, Iraq is defeated, and Iran is next. The USA, the West, will work right on down the list of Islamic countries. Islam needs to be put in its place a private religion, with freedoms to enjoy, BUT NOT using the Koran as a government constitution, filled with evils, and the suppression of humanity.

Does this answer your question?

Don 

Back to you Ira Khan--for better understanding

There are no lines drawn between the Islamic Koran driven government, and the individual “personal” religion.
  

In addition, we in the west keep missing the point thinking that Islam is a personal religion, that fits the category of;  take it, leave it,  or change it as you personally desire.  This in not the case and is not the intent of Islam.  Islam is a government, its constitution is the Koran, and how to implement this government in actions is the life of Mohammad. Accordingly, kill all who do not believe, as Mohammad did,  and as written in the Koran.    Both are horrible, torturous, hateful, contradictory, lacks common reasoning, warring, brutal in punishments, and straight from the dark ages in savagery.

The Koran and Mohammad have nothing to be proud over,  as there is no freedom of religion, no freedom of speech, no civil rights, no right to vote, no rights for the people to choose their own laws without discrimination.  Certainly, in Islam,  there is no challenging the Koran without the death sentence.

There is NO personal religion in Islam, all are forced to comply to this ridged narrow  theocracy or be killed. There is one law for men, another law for women, an other laws for captives of war,  do it or be killed.  A person supports this Islamic government or be killed. You criticize this Islamic government you are killed.  This government says to pray 5 times a day or be killed. In addition, on goes the list of atrocity no less than found in the Koran and life of Mohammad.       

I do concede my language as to the physical position (being on all fours) of Muslims when they pray was overly harsh in light of a “personal” religion. My apologies are offered in sincerity, in the light of your “personal religion”.  I could care less how you/others pray, as it is “personal” to you, and there are no requirements for others to do the same. If any person wants to leave such a physical position, of being on all fours in their prayers, can do so, no problem. It is not my place to chide. It is wrong to call names, but rather to show common respect. If  I do not like it, I can stay away. I can give you all the space you needed to pray as you desire, if you allow me all the space I need to stay away. Such is a “free society”, such is freedom of religion.   

However in the “Islamic  (Koran) government mandate” of such prayers, either get on all fours with your face in the dirt, or you DIE (you pig monkey).

This is clearly spoken in Koran; you are to submit on all fours, mentally, physically, and symbolically to this Islamic government, on all fours with head bowed, or die.

In this case  I will stand by what I said in full force and meaning, with much more to say in rebuke.  Governments forcing people to their physical knees in prayer is not right,  no more as it would be right to use police force to gather Muslims at gunpoint and herd them in to a Catholic Church to be Baptized.

Muslims do not get it, nor understand the concepts of, “freedom of religion”. The freedom to believe, as you would without recourse (without committing a tort), is a human right. This “right” is a government mandate voted on by the people, and constitutional law.  This the purpose of government,  to maintain your personal rights, and freedoms, and accordingly,  the government cannot be involved in religion, bible, NOR the Koran.   

Islam is not a personal religion, never has been and never will be, and there is no reforming it, or changing the Koran. ALL are to bow to the Koran book, with over 707 verses of hate, curses, and killings, or be killed by Islamic government officials, or using vigilante in home grown terror, as the Koran demands.

This is the fear that the west has. The Koran, Islam, IS a government policy, in all it’s terror, restrictions of human rights, slaughter, hate,  and destroy;  to be ruled  by Islam means YOU have to kill others, as there is NO dispute what Jihad means. In Islam  a person  is made a “slave” in submission to this terror, being  physically on all fours with head bowed. To pray on all fours, is to pray to the will of the State,  and not a god, NOT to Allah. It is assumed the State is from Allah, so to pray  to Allah is to pray to the State, there is NO separation. 

If I am wrong, PLEASE,  tell me how the two are separated. How do you separate the State from the Koran? Teach me, I’m all ears and reading the material you posted, trying to make some sense of it.   

In Islam there is NO separation of church and State, the Koran is the state.  That is why Islam is “political”, and should be dealt with as any terrorist government as government officials act out their rancid violations of human rights, being NO less than Pole Pot and any other dictator.   A government run by the dictation of Islamic Mullahs that can never be taken out of power, save by force of arms, can never be called “freedom”, but rather the tyranny of the few as a stifling  heavy burden on the many.  

I say this again:

If I am wrong, PLEASE,  tell me how the two are separated. How do you separate the State from the Koran? Teach me I’m all ears and reading the material you posted, trying to make some sense of it.   

Don

To Pretenders

Another question I have is. You who claim to be pure Iranians and pretending that you are saddened over Arabs attacking Persia 2000 years ago. Where were you and what did you do when Arabs attached Iran for the second time 30 years ago? Are you the real Iranians? or the Iranians who stayed there and fought the Arabs?
You want to know the truth? But you can't handle the truth.

Dear JavidIran

I didn't mean to upset you. I simply had a question since I find myself very interested in ZOROASTRIANISM and I had said that before, but I do not know much about it so I was wondering what ZOROASTRIANS do when their rights are violated. You said, you leave it to government. Good. But the government is from people who believe in ZOROASTRIANISM. So how should they defend the country if they don't believe in fighting? By turning away as you say and leave it to God? I am very confused.
It seems to me there should be time to turn away and leave it to God and times that one must fight and defend.

TO DARIUSH

Dear Sir,
First let me do the correct spelling for you: ZOROASTERIAN.
second I have noticed on this web site that you are so ready to attack whenever there is a mention about zoroasterain and you are so ready to make a criticism and challange it however you can.
Third I want you to kbow that I will personally ignore your commnents and underlying hostility which is all since of insecurity.
My beliefs are there the universe should be in peaceful harmony and every religion should be practice in one's privacy. All religions are sacred and holly in their own.
If you feel your rights are being violated I would suggest that let go and let God as I say and universal law will take care of it.Being able to walkaway even if you think your rights are being violated is the biggest dismiss to the other side.Don't worry so much about proving your point...Just let God take care of things for you if you have enough faith in him and can completely put your trust in your ALLAH.

Anonymous-2 / Javid Iran

Dear JavidIran.
what does zorasterianism teachings are if one's right is violated? Should one defend and fight?

Dear Anonymous-2
Thank you for your information. I look forward to reading more of your articles on this site. Which books do you recommend? Especially historical and ideological.

Don: Lets start from the end...

You wrote:

"NO sane person will “submit”,  it is NOT in our genetic code to put our butts in the air like a dog, as a pig feeding,  being on all fours. Allah can go to hell where he came from. It will NOT be done."

I am not surprized to read these lines because it is in synch with the rest of your thought about muslims. The above image is among many other images that has been formed in your mind over the years about Islam and I realize that. This is exactly where we are in the world. Negative images of us are every where. In fact you proved my points. You prefer us to be backward, tribal and uneducated like "a dog", " a pig". As far as you are concerned if we don't conform to your ideals we should be deported or maybe put in concentration camps like Americans of Japanese decendants during the world war 2.

Now a few points:

1. You wanted sources to learn about the "Modernist Islam"

//www.unc.edu/~kurzman/ModernistIslam/

//www.drsoroush.com/English.htm

2. Your attitude towards any criticism of the history of atrocities committed against the native American, references to the slave owners, or crimes committed by the christians against humanity etc is very predictable: LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT. What a sorry reasoning!

3. Again; Iran has never stopped females' access to higher education. Where do you get your facts? Do you imagine them? 

4. As far the masscres committed by the Catholics in Spain is concerned (burning Jews, Muslims and the critics of the Catholic church at stakes) you can read jewish historians who have written extensively about this subject.

5. And finally, you have not answered my main question:

Who is occupying whose country? who is bombing who? who is killing human beings on a mass scale? who is robbing the riches of other people? who is helping the dictators in the Islamic countries to stay in power?

I believe I have stated my case and at the same time got to know where you are coming from. Well, if it's hopeless there is nothing to worry about.

Iraj Khan

This is simple

If you hate Islam then stay away from it, why discredit it or advertise against it? Those who know Islam and Koran know well that the religion is a replicate of Judaism. You may take the verses out of context and make it the way you would like to present. Many of the words of Koran is not clear and that’s why there are over 1,000,000 Hadith that suppose to clarify what it means to be a Muslim or what the books meant to say. It’s the most stupid thing to demonize a religion that has the largest following on our earth. Those followers are not only born in to Islamic religion, but the religion has been able to attract the new comers in incredibly large numbers.

Do I agree with Islam? No but I don’t claim that I know why all these people on earth attracted to this religion either. Most majorities of those who talk against the religion are uneducated about that religion anyways.

Please note that it is not the religion that causes a group or a nation to advocate/implement violence but the cultural and traditional norms. If you see violence it's not religion committing it. Africans who are Christians or Israelis who are Jews, they all have violence in and out of their lives not being a Muslim. A culture adopts a religion and uses that religion to implement their level of social realization. If Osama was an Atheist, he would commit his crimes in the name of, perhaps, social freedom or demolishing evil capitalism. Or even he may have done that to get rid of religions in the west! He would've fought in whatever name, it happens that the oil is in the Muslim world and the foreign governments play their control games that causes these groups to pop up. This is not religion! It's politics.

What goes around comes around. Those who advocate the freedom of hate speeches, most probably come across one in their or their children’s life time. Many Americans were upset when they heard Dr. Wright preach about certain “realities” that have been part of the experiences of the blacks in America. If you are one of those who did not care for his speech, think why and you got your answer here too. Note that he did not promote hate or endangered “white” people for their century old criminal actions!

Historically generalizing an ideology means discrimination and hate crimes against certain groups of innocent individuals, why would you want to advocate that?

Having said all above, those not mean that there are no stupidity in Islam, there are and there are in all religions. I have mentioned the idea in more detail in my most recent article.

Don don't you feel better now?

Now that you got that stinking Islam and Quron and Allah out of your system in front of us Iranians don't you feel better?

I know, I know you had that bottled up and needed to say it to someone who really cared but couldn't find an outlet until you found this website this week.  Where else can you educate the backwards Muslims and Iranians than their own website?

Although I should tell you this website is blocked in Iran so it doesn't really have the effect one may anticipate with these kind of open debate discussions about Freedom of Hate Speech.  But don't worry I'll print this and make some copies and then distribute it in downtown Tehran to make sure people understand what a backward religion they are practicing.

Meanwhile, enjoy your stay.  We really need someone to open our eyes.  Our own compatriots are doing their best but you seem to have more knowledge and all of us can benefit from it, including those whose thunder you are stealing.

SPOT ON!

Dear JAVIDIRAN,

God bless you and all those who think like you and help eveyrbody else see things your way

Back to you.

Don: Actions speak louder than words....
by iraj khan on Thu Apr 10, 2008 02:16 AM CDT

 
Once again you prove your limited knowledge of moslems, Iran and the prevailing culture in United States.
Here are a few of them:

1. There are more women in the Iranian universities than males, surprise, surprise! do a research on that subject. You were wrong.

Don:

That does not change the fact, by news reports, that Iran has limited, discriminated by sexual gender, refused entrance into higher education by females.

Now here is the short answer.  ALL (you do know what ALL means right, or play the dummy) will be educated without restraint to their hearts desire, in any subject, for what ever reason,  as the student sees fitting.

Now what is it about the word “ALL” you do not understand?

2. Many Iranians who left Iran had completed their higher education in Iran. It is true about Pakestanies, Indians, etc. Wrong again.

Don:

Why did they leave a county that is one of the largest oil producing nations in the world? Islam is SO perfect, there is not opportunity? Where is “All-powerful Allah” pouring out his blessing to all that believe?

Oh I get it,  Allah thinks female are filth by the Koran.

I give ground that many leave a country, for another,  for many reasons. However, generally, and reasonably assumed,  a person does not leave a place where they are happy. So why are you in the USA? Are you an Iranian government spy of some kind? (no) 

Alternatively, did you become so dissatisfied you had to make a change, and the USA was plenty good for you and Iran was plenty bad for you to leave.

Now you regret your move---then move on back.

USA, and its States,  is a land of freedom, you can leave any time for a better place on this earth. You might try Gambia Africa, but they have anti-discrimination laws also---bummer---- Islam/Koran is being screwed all over this earth. 

See here for diversity in Gambia Africa. How far away can you get?

//www.jahworks.org/travel/travel_story/gambia.html

It is anti-discrimination laws that makes Gambia Africa nicked named  world wide as  "The Smiling Coast." YEAH I Love it!

3. Hate crimes against moslems has increased many folds (human rights watch report).

Don:

Then take action,  it is horrible to accept discrimination—totally disgusting--- and NOT tolerated. NOT in the USA, NOT in my home town, and NOT in Oregon.

But know this also. YOU wave a black flag in my face of Koran teaching,  and direct quotes from the Koran saying,  “kill all who do not believe.” YOU had better watch your next step. You may find yourself in jail/prison real fast. My Country does NOT tolerate this crap. So do not be pulling your “reverse” discrimination on the USA as we are wise to this argument.

You anger people with your horrible Koran/Islam book of hate, you will be held accountable.

4. You have an sterotype image of a "Mulla". One of the first real movements to modernize Islam in Iran was started by the students of Islamic schools more than a hundred years ago.

Don:

Then give me his name so I read about him.

He has about 707 Koran verses of hate, killings, slaughter, name calling, degrading to females, amputations,  head chopping, and utter filth curses one to another, to justify.  YES,  put his name out I want to see this work of art.

Bet me,  put his name out here in clearity so I, and others,  can look him up. 
 

5. You have a very rosy picture of American history. You probably have forgotten what was done to the native Americans by the slave owning enlightened American humanists. How many millions were perished and displaced by the Euroupean invaders, Bible in one hand and gun in the other. You are giving me the middle school's introduction to American history.

Don:

I do not have any such rosy picture of the USA. We can be a brutal nation made of  many people from allover this world. We have Russian, Armenians, Indians (both kinds), Iranians,  Mexicans,  Iraqis, Vietnamese,  Germans, French, English,  Japanese, Africans;  I could name all the people of the world  in my small hometown in “backwater”  USA Oregon.

 The dredge,  and the rejected of this earth,  some how end up here in Oregon.  We look at each other, then smile,  and find some pride in survival, and in all honesty,  at times we are not real smart.

The USA has done some very bad things, I have NO pride accordingly but shame. Most USA people (look at the poles) HATE what is being done in Iraq. Bush is 70% disproval, and 55-60% say he should have been “impeached out of office”---- I say drag Bush out of the White House in chains by a legal Court mandate and act of Congress,  and put him on trial for being STUPID, just like that “Iran president” (what a slug of life).  Try them together in a court of law and save money. 

In MY hometown, backwater,  USA, Ore.,  the WORLD stands with me.      

6. You claim you are an aethiest but you still excuse all the atrocities commited by christians.

Don:

NOT a chance in hell my dear friend. Hurting or killing others is WRONG.  I being an atheist, a humanist, and secular;   I stand by “humanity”.  I stand by own human kind, because I am one of them, and I have bias accordingly. 

Atrocities to humans do not stop being evil by the god that is named, or the country involved, NOR by the books that are worshiped.  I fight back, and I do not loose, and I do not stand alone. 

7. When moslems were the dominent force in Spain they did not annihalated the jews and the christians. This cannot be said about the catholic army that invaded Spain from the north. 

Don:

Sir, read history.  The Arabs and  Moors (Islamic invaders) rapped the land,  slaved the people, sucked out the wealth, made class division against Visigothic laws, (that became world wide to this date) and Islam made the country bloody.

The  re-conquest Spain was over 700 years of back and forth atrocities with the Visigoths doing all the work of maintaining society, caught in the middle, and the Visigoths wanted the Arab Islamic invaders DEAD, for the brutal crimes and slavery put on them by Islam.

When the Spanish  Catholic Inquisition arrived as the police,  backed by the European army, in full force, and the Catholic’s  dropped an Islamic, Muslim, Arab on a bed of spikes in full public view —the Visigoths cheered their hearts out for the pleasure of seeing “pay back”.

The common people burned the Koran wherever they could find it, killed all who had the book,  for the evil and torture it  contained  that the general  populace had suffered, and labored under as slaves,  for 700 years.  

An ending of an “invading people as Arab Islamics”  did not come to this climax of blood shed without good cause. It was NOT for wealth but rather FREEDOM—NO MORE inequity of laws!

Seeing the mighty force of the freed Visigoths and adherence to the “One LAW for ALL”, even Europe in order to appease and stop the killings,  said YES that is right, ONE LAW for all.   The Laws of the Visigoths were Fair, Just, Reasonable, and doable without harm to innocence, and for ALL to follow. Accordingly Europe was forced by logic to Agree, and a sword helped out.   

Islam failed in Spain, by promoting different laws for different people,  random brutal, gross punishments, and hurting ladies that the Visigoths loved dearly for the next generation.

Islamic Arabs failed, by discrimination,  to win the hearts of the common people after 700 years of occupation. This is a fact of history. 

One can claim,  look how brutal the Christians were! Moreover, I can respond---look at the total failure of Islam, the Koran, and fake Allah, and a moon god at that (as if looking for the time of month for a lady to rape.)

NO sane person will “submit”,  it is NOT in our genetic code to put our butts in the air like a dog, as a pig feeding,  being on all fours. Allah can go to hell where he came from. It will NOT be done.

This is all I have time for. For reference see the quotes I posted  or do a Google search of key words.

I thank you for yuor time, and I wish for many goods to follow humanity, even you.

Don

From Zoroasterain

I'm not a muslim or christian...I just like to say that with all this religion hocus pocus we are disturbing the universial peace...People please stop fighting with each other and prove one another wrong. We all come from God therefore connected to each other's soul. There are no better race, country, or religion. I strongly believe that religion is something private and spiritual that you practice on daily basis behind close doors...Just between you and God. Religion should not have any part in government or politics or how we see another human being.
We all need to respect one another and not push our ideas on other people. Need to let people make their own free choice. There should be no advertisment regarding any religion...at the end of the day when it's time for us to leave this universe we are responsible for our own actions...your religion is not responsible for who you are in life but rather your own conscious. Purity comes from within and kindness and forgiveness should be our everyday practice in life.

To: Iraj Khan Excellent response

Iraj Khan, than you for your excellent response, I could not have said it better.

I am just amazed at the ignorance of so many on this site regarding Islam and its teachings. This includes DON!!

Obviously many people have not read history or conveniently have forgotten it. No other culture has been more violent and bloody over the past centuries than the so called "Western civilized" world. The problem of our era is not the violence of Muslims but the violence of some Western countries and one Middle Eastern State!!

Samuel Huntington was right on at least one point:

"The West won the World not by superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

With the exception of this particular article, most articles posted in multitude on a daily basis against Islam and its believers are no longer called “freedom of speech” or “freedom of expression” these are hate speeches filled with false propaganda with an agenda!

Writers can both stimulate public opinion and miseducate. How many hasty, immature, superficial, and misleading judgements are expressed every day confusing readers.

With freedom of expression comes a higher obligation, and that is moral responsibility.

Why may one say fascistic things about Muslims and their religion while any such comment about Christians and Jews would be rejected as entirely unacceptable, and rightfully so. In contrast to the West, xenophobia is unknown in the Muslim World.

These misleading articles and videos are also not directed at the IRI; they will never view this, nor will such vile and sensationalist videos be embraced by Muslim countries... As such, who are the targeted audience of these decrepit videos and articles posted every day on Iranian.com?

Whoever knows the truth about Islam is not going to hate their religion, their Prophet nor the Qur’an? So what is the main purpose of this? Is it to turn those who are ignorant about Islam against Muslims? Is the aim to wage another bloody Crusade against the Muslim World? It definitely seems like it!! .

For all those who wish to give a gift to “terrorists” – and the definition of terrorists are all who kill innocent civilians whether by bombs, fighter jets, or otherwise (this includes State terrorism - I hope some get the message) you are doing a great job. I guess the enemy of my enemy is my friend...

It was not Muslims who invented “holy wars” joined Crusades under the rallying cry ‘Deus lo Volt – God wills it” (Urban II) and in the process massacred more than 4 million Muslims and Jews.

It was not Muslims who waded “ankle-deep in blood” in Jerusalem before they rejoicing and weeping from excess of happiness...came to worship and give thanks at the Sepulcher of our ‘Savior Jesus’

Islam never associated the word ‘holy’ with war. Jihad means exertion, a struggle in the pathways of God, an effort that can involve defensive wars. Nowhere in the Qur’an does Jihad mean “holy war”.

“Holy war” is unfortunately a concept from the Old Testament (see Jeremiah 51:27).

Nor was it Muslims who massacred up to 50 million people in the name of colonizing Africa and Asia.

It was not Muslims who instigated the First and Second World Wars, in which 70 million people perished. And it was not Muslims, but Christian Germans who murdered six million Jews.

It is not Muslims, who have oppressed, stripped off all rights, de-humanized, humiliated and conducted the most atrocious acts against the Palestinians. .

No other culture has been more violent and bloody over the past centuries as Western Civilization.

When have so called “Christian” politicians ever honored Christianity, the religion of love and turn the other check?

Muslim conquerors unlike their Christian conquerors did not attempt to force Christians or Jews to accept Islam, expel them or exterminate them. Tolerance toward Christians and Jews was the law and the pride of the Muslim civilization.

Under Muslim rule entire peoples remained Christian or Jewish while the “Christian Inquisition” burned those who held different beliefs at the stake.

The Jews fared better under Muslim rule than under “Christian” hegemony. It was only when the “Christian” King Ferdinand of Aragon completed the Recon Questa in 1492 by taking Granada; the last Muslim bastion in Spain, then the merciless expulsion of the Jews began. Most fled to Muslim countries. The coexistence of Christians, Jews and Muslims in Muslim countries only became troubled with the advent of colonialization and nationalism in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Muslims in the enlightened Andalusian era not only salvaged for the world the sunken treasures of the Greek and Roman culture and philosophy, they also created new sciences. They pioneered experimental optics, invented the compass, discovered the path of the planets and crucial elements of modern medicine and pharmacy. In the area of architecture they produced some of the most breath taking architectural master pieces of our time; later to be copied by the West.

Whether you want to accept it or not the reality is that we live in a culture that was founded by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

If one wants to take versus out of context from the Qur’an to demonstrate the harshness of the religion – you will find far harsher versus and less tolerance in both the Old and New Testament.

Extremists and preachers of hate in the East and the West almost always ignore the historical context of these passages.

Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad were not born in a historical vacuum but into a belligerent world. At first glance, the Old Testament especially in its historical passages might be seen as to be the bloodiest of the first three Holy Books – much bloodier than the Qur’an.

Unlike many politicians of our day, Muhammad was not a reactionary. He did not long to be transported back to 1400 years. He was a bold, forward looking egalitarian revolutionary, who broke the bounds of tradition. His Islam was not a religion of stasis or repression but of renewal and new departures. Even a little of this great reformers’ dynamism would do the Muslim World a lot of good.

Muhammad fought passionately for social change. He stood up for the poor and the weak and to the annoyance of many of his male followers for a massive improvement in the right of women, who in pre-Islamic times in all most no other cultures enjoyed virtually any right at all.

Muhammad was neither a fanatic nor an extremist. He wanted to tell the polytheist Arabs of his day about the God of the Jews and the Christians – in authentic pure form.

The moderate majority of Muslims must interpret the fascinating message of Muhammad for the Muslim World and continue his social reform that he risked his life to initiate.

As for the rest with a mixture of self-righteousness, ignorance and hatred, you are demonizing Islam and Muslims. This is not only shameful but it harms the whole of humanity.

Whoever wants to shake off Hitler must stop resorting to the same racist tactics toward any other religion...

I advise those who genuinely want to learn the truth about Islam to read books from a multitude of known scholars (I would be happy to give you references!) who have written about Muhammad and the teachings of the Qur’an and not the rubbish being published by some on Iranian.com. Certain authors have a particular agenda – and their agenda is not pure, nor honest, but one filled with hatred and disinformation..

Nothing makes us more vulnerable to the treachery of others than our ignorance.

The road to peace is not by inciting hatred!

Let's move beyond the labeling, and hate filled documentaries, movies, speeches, etc. and begin the healing process where mankind kind can live together in peace and solidarity with the aim of making this world a better place for all people.

Don: Actions speak louder than words....

Once again you prove your limited knowledge of moslems, Iran and the prevailing culture in United States.

Here are a few of them:

1. There are more women in the Iranian universities than males, surprise, surprise! do a research on that subject. You were wrong.

2. Many Iranians who left Iran had completed their higher education in Iran. It is true about Pakestanies, Indians, etc. Wrong again.

3. Hate crimes against moslems has increased many folds (human rights watch report).

4. You have an sterotype image of a "Mulla". One of the first real movements to modernize Islam in Iran was started by the students of Islamic schools more than a hundred years ago. 

5. You have a very rosy picture of American history. You probably have forgotten what was done to the native Americans by the slave owning enlightened American humanists. How many millions were perished and displaced by the Euroupean invaders, Bible in one hand and gun in the other. You are giving me the middle school's introduction to American history.

6. You claim you are an aethiest but you still excuse all the atrocities commited by christians.

7. When moslems were the dominent force in Spain they did not annihalated the jews and the christians. This cannot be said about the catholic army that invaded Spain from the north. 

8. And finally, you did not answer my main question:

Who is occupying whose land, who is bombing who, who starts wars, who kills people on a mass scale, who steals whose riches. Are they the followers of Quran or God forbid the followers of Holy Bible?

9. I am not trying to prove Quran is better than Bible. What I am saying is all monotheist religions say the same thing.

10. Islamic movements are created in the absence of democratic movements. It is the result of centuries of colonialism forced on these societies by the bible wielding Euroupeans. Not to mention the support given to the dictators of these societies by the western powers to suppress their own people.

Conclusion: There is enough blames to go around. Don't fool yourself in thinking you have found the root of the problem and it is Quran.

Have a good night

This is America

Don: Judge people by what they do....
by iraj khan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 05:46 PM CDT

Unfortunately, your understanding of "foreign" religions in general and Islam in particular is very limited. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States and Euroupe. All these hate pointed towards moslems are related to this reality.
 

Don replies:

As usual in these conversation people make claims of a person’s inadequacies but do not show any corrections.

If Islam is growing in the USA it because the USA, North America, as with Europe, is allowing immigration so these fine, beautiful,  people can escape the horrid Islamic/Koran religious persecutions of their home land.   

I am happy to be a help to you. The freedoms in Oregon and the USA are what you cherish, as you should,  and these rights and freedoms did not come by any religion, did not come by any holy book,  and did not come by way of Islam or the Koran.

These freedoms in the USA came by intelligent, educated, determined  people that care about humanity, that rejected religions in government and are secular. Had you studied,  you would know that the backbone of the USA, and its freedoms that you enjoy,  is “tort law”. The same started to be developed in 1500’s as “humanism”, as the Catholic Church started to break up—and has nothing to do with religion or holy books of any kind.

When you live in a country that allows you “freedom of religion” with police powers, supported by every law and court imaginable, voted on by the people, with an attorney on every street corner for your protection in Justice; how silly of you to say that we are “against Muslims” and your growing numbers.

I think you are spaced out in your accusations, and are dragging the  discriminations from your Islamic homeland, Koran teaching, into a country where it is not needed. So be nice and do not break the law. 

iraj khan

Moslems are becoming sophisticated, educated and modern. Many Christians don't like this. They prefer the backward, uneducated and tribal image of moslems. They streotype all moslems as the believers of every word written in Quran. They refuse to listen to anything that a practicing modern moslem have to say.

Don:

The laws regarding freedom of speech are to protect speech that others find offensive, and as the US Supreme Court  says, “Live With It.” so I pass it on.

By your own confession,  Islamic/Koran driven countries have NOT developed the means of higher education, do not have the institutions,  nor the social structure, do NOT have laws where higher education and learning can be developed. Why is that? Because they are Koran driven countries, where there IS NO room for literature, creative thinking as science, to go against the gross narrowness of the Koran. Any that say other wise to the Koran’s authority are simply killed.

Every Islamic country is a backward country----look at Iran—women are second class citizens, limited by numbers in the universities so as not to compete with men---that is utterly STUPID. But that is what the Koran says, women are less than men in all accounts, so it has to be made that way.

OK , educate me.  What parts of the Koran do you NOT believe in---I will take quotes in English as for reference,  so I can look it up.  Post them here on the net and let us have an understanding.

iraj khan

Christians and the believers of other religions have to compete for good jobs, housing, etc with the educated enlightened moslems of the world and they don't like it. So they accuse all moslems of wrong doings? Moslems do this, moslems do that. Moslems believe in this, moslems believe in that

Don:

Sir,  KNOW the Califorinia and Federal laws against discrimination by: race,  nationality, religion, sexual gender, and physical disabilities. YOU have NO leg to stand on accusing others that they are discriminating against you by your religion. NO ONE dare do that, and if they did,  it is possible you can end up owning all they have from civil suit, NOT mention the offender will be fully prosecuted with possible jail/prison time, sanctions, and massive fines.

However, YOU have to repot the crime, that is YOUR responsibility and the DA will fight for justice.
 
As to personal opinions of others, outside of libel and slander that can be brought to court as torts, you just have to live with it. I am called “whitey”, cracker, white bread, gringo,  a pig/monkey by the Koran and Muslims,  and all atheists, as I,  are of the devil as said by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike.  Give me a break, toughen up, and use the laws.

I would certainly not deny you having personal opinions of others, and I do not have to return any of the same.

iraj khan

..... I give one example of the backwardness found in Bible (old testament the favorite book of born again christians): "If a girl who is getting married is not virgin at the night of her wedding she must be killed". Do you believe in that? LOL.

Don:

If the verse was not so pathetic, I would giggle. You are trying to hard. Here let help you out. Go to this web site and make note of it. It is a large listing of the atrocities, barbarisms, and savageness found in the Bible with quotes. Very easy to cut and paste for reference.

//www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

You are very wrong that “Born Again” Christians favor the Old Testament. Who told you this? NO, NO--- the New Testament is favored by all main stream “Born Again” Christians.  Being “Born Again” is NOT even mentioned in the OT.  In the NT the Holy Spirit was not sent until Jesus resurrected, that brings about the spiritual conversion from sin as “born again” and a new man in Christ. All of this is in the NT not in the OT.
 
But like I said there are untold numbers of interpretation of the bible, good luck with it. The bible is horrably backward, this was known since the early 1500’s, and bible brutality goes back to its conception.

But we are not talking about the bible we are talking about the Koran and,  “two wrongs do not one right” ---agreed? You cannot justify what is the Koran by what the bible says. Your argument is, “the bible is wrong so the Koran must right.”  WRONG, both the bible and the Koran are wrong and demonstrated so.

iraj khan

You tell me you like to read history, then read the history of Spain during the Middle Ages and find out who were the enlightened people.

Don:

Most all the advancements that were claimed to have made by Islam were already known by the Romans, Greeks, China, Persia, and much more.  A discovery has to completely different from anything shown before.  Many of these discoveries were already known and what Islam did is copy them from the people they captured.

Islam is a religion, an idea, Islam is NOT physical genetic material for intelligence,  same as Christianity.

What you are implying, it is the  Islamic Arabs and Moors that recorded these advancements in Spain, and that is highly disputable.  The descendents of the Italian Romans, Geeks and Germanic Visigoths occupied Spain at the time of Islamic conquest.

In the time of frame about 700 to 1492, (Islamic conquest,  start to finish) the Visigoths paid tribute their Islamic masters to maintain their culture and life.  Islam did not subdue the entire peninsula, but rather kept a marginal power base of armed forces to collect money and wealth from those they captured.  

It was the Visigothic Code of laws that prevailed over the Iberian Peninsula  starting at 642/3 to modern times.  This law was enacted as Hispani, meaning “one law for all” that governed family life, courts, police, inheritance, marriages, adoptions,  civil affairs, trade, and politics---- regardless of who or what you are, rich or poor. Some say these were the first “anti-discrimination laws” in human history. These laws had nothing to do with Islam, and never came from the Koran. These laws were organized into a universal “code”  by the Visigothic King Hispania (642/643). He never was a Muslim, as Mohammad had hardly died.

The Islamic invaders, (Arabs and Moors) while in Spain practiced  Islamic laws, as it was necessary to keep the cash and goods coming in and the Visigoths as slaves. The Visigoths (the Spanish common people) were never accepted into Islamic rule, and kept their own identity though many went by the label “Muslim” as not to be killed, or to make life a little easer.   

This same concept of “one law for all”  (and many of the laws unchanged) were passed on into Europe after the defeat of Islam in Spain (1492).  It became common law that kings and Popes are not above the law. These codes and “one law for all”  eventually made their way into the USA civil codes, criminal codes,  and constitutions. We have “ONE law for all” , not like Islamic laws that have one set of laws for men, another set of laws for captured people, and another set of laws for women.

The standardization of laws put an end to social strife, and ended many arguments in fairness—fair to all, and not to a few. This is a standard in the west, but not in Islamic countries where women are in a separate “lower class” than men. The Koran makes it very clear that captured people have a different law to go by and that is discriminatory. 

The Catholic Spanish Inquisition (horrably bloody) ended Islamic rule in Spain and was targeted at the Islamic invaders, the Arabs and the Moors, and to any sympathizers, not to the Visigoths as they wanted the Islamic rule to end.

Reference:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Code

So to answer your question.  Who where the enlightened ones in  Spain?

Well that depends;  in law and order, it was the Visigoths that actually controlled society, gave the Spanish culture its direction and unity, and was the “working class” where most all improvements come from. They were a highly developed culture before Islam, improved themselves under the occupation, and emerged the winners when the Islamic invaders were defeated.

In raw power and brute force of arms it was the Islamic invaders, and the most wealthy by taxing all others to death. They had little regard for human life other than their own,  the country was a cash cow to be milked. The Arab and Moors, the Islamic invaders,  brought nothing with them but the edge of the sword, a bucket to put gold in,  and a book on how to subdue people in perpetual misery and discrimination. 

In preserving humanity, it was the women that labored hard that went  unheard of and never reported.  They kept the replacement of human-kind on going, unrelenting, and produced the next generation, that perhaps things will better than before, one child at a time.

Looking at history you get to pick and choose what side you want to be on, if you choose wrong you can always change your mind, but historical facts do not change.

iraj khan

Moslems have a lot to catch up in the modern world and many reforms are required to modernize Islam. The majority of moslems know it but you on purpose do not want to hear their voices. You prefer to look at your own creation of moslems. Our media here has brainwashed you to think this way (in best case scenaio)

Don:

You are going to tell Mullah he is wrong about the Koran. Can I watch when you do this? I think you will need a police escort for your protection.

Why do you call yourself a Muslim if you disagree with the Koran saying Islam need changes. You cannot change it no more than you can deconvert the Pope.

This is AMERICA, my friend, you have freedoms and legal protection of your rights.  I think you are best served by starting your own group, and break away from traditional Islam. Right now you can have all the changes you want, and you can find others to agree with you and support you in your cause to modernize your beliefs.
Write out your doctrine, state your beliefs, advertise your meeting location and times,  and you are in business as they say. Give yourself a name for identification and to show you are different as “New World Islam”.

Any that  acuse you of being violant and killing jihads, hand them your statement of doctrine and invite them to come see for themselves, that you are not one of them.  That is a nice way to get converts also.

Islam is horrably bloody in all of history to this day’s date. You cannot change this, but you can blaze a new trail into the future.

I wish you well and very good day.     

Don

God is not stupid, of course, if you believe in GOD

Listen for awhile. Your GOD is not stupid. A wise GOD could create something very simple for all to understand and to follow. For example 2+2=4.

So, do not question religions, question your "GOD". What kind of "GOD", do you believe in? A stupid "GOD" that can not write an easy to follow holy book or a wise "GOD"?

Relax. believe in mankind for advancing in every area including social arrangements.