Anyway

VPK

The debate was proceeding fine and venturing into interesting areas of discussion until the usual posse (beginning with Truthseeker9) came in to muddy waters with their Islamophobia as they always do and always will.

Please !!!

I beg you do not make this blog about Bahai! We got bigger problems in Iran. Let it go. I was having a good time arguing with brother Salman. Now it is all Bahai this and that. What about Kurdish.

Brother Salman hear my pleas! Let us join forces and rescue this debate. We should be fighting about whether Islam is good or bad. Not about Bahai. Sister Rea join us in reclaiming our debate!

Faryar/Waders

Not interested in discussing anything with you. But can you tell us what spirit the following words are endowed with?

Ma'idih-i-Asmani, vol. 4, page 355
//reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MAS4/mas4-355.html

By God, the Truth, whomsoever criticizes it [i.e. Baha'ism],
[which is] possessed of the manifest, the brilliant, the high and the
perspicuous excellence, it behoveth him to ask his mother [yanbaghi lahu bi-an yas'al min ummihi] about his origins [or 'state', i.e.'hal', meaning he should inquire his mother about his legitimate conception – trans.], for he shall return to the nethermost hell [asfal al-jahim]"…

schizophrenic interpretation or quoting the wrong person

VPK

Consensus realities are more dangerous than anything. More dangerous than the Islamism you decry. It is a consensus reality that gives these 'ulama their position and the power they weild. If the consensus collapsed, so would the establishment these clerics represent. It is as simple as that. Given this, what people recognize or not generally is a meaningless proposition to me. I know what I know and I know that if it ever came to it I could run concentric circles of arguments around the current Shi'ite 'ulama and thereby demonstrate the fact that they are full of it. However I am not tickled pink by the socially engineered Islamophobia that has become trendy amongst the Iranian diaspora and the north Tehran crowd in Iran, and those who are capitalizing on it.

As to why I am here, I have time to kill before something going on in a few days so I am posting to IC again.

 ey baba......I thought

 ey baba......I thought Sufis loved everyone...This is becoming a very strange and a very depressing thread...I'm outta here.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

Vildemose

BIA

Also note the psychological reversal games. Bahais like Truthseeker9 lie with a straight face and perpetuate every form of misrepresentation of other people's beliefs, engaging in blatant Islamophobia and hate-speech, but when they are called on the floor and exposed for what they are doing, they play victim and beat their chests.

I don't care about JJ nor follow Ayat'ul-Dot-Com JJ's cult of personality on IC nor like you Bahai cowards do I hide behind anyone's skirt. Intellectually Other that one!

Vildemose

Every blog becomes about his issues with Bahais. THis is not even a Bahai blog. He spams Bahai blogs to bring attention to his own past issues and his own religion (I think it is Sufi). He did this to two other blogs posted by Ghormeh Sabzi and Fred recently.

JJ has forgiven him so many times but every time he comes back harassing and misrepresenting other posters. Not long ago he was asking people to boycott IC and he accuses people of being two faced! The avetar changes but the behaviour does not.

//groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/thread/56de099c51f090e9

In my Book, everything

*

**

***

What's wrong with being a

What's wrong with being a Bahai??

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

Truthseeker9

You are a Bahai and you know I know you are one. Please see,

//bahai-library.com/bsr/bsr06/62_maneck_hikmat.htm
WISDOM AND DISSIMULATION IN THE BAHA’I WRITINGS: The Use and meaning of Hikmat in the Baha’i Writings

QUOTE

"In many cases hikmat calls for the apparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure the protection of the Faith."

Comment: In other words Baha'is may lie under any circumstance to ensure the protection of their organizational cohesiveness.

-

Where playing victim (mazlum nama'i) and ganging up beating chests to the world claiming to be oppressed is concerned, Bahais are bar none masters at that game as evidenced repeatedly on this site and elsewhere, not to mention some of the most deceitful, two-faced people I have ever met! Muslims here need to note that some of the most biggoted Islamophobes on this site (from Faramarz Fateh to Truthseeker9) have all been Bahais.

Can you say "Intellectual Othering"? LOL!

Vildermose - this is for your info

He lives in Australia and he and his solicitor were blocked from IC for a while.  He was blocked for repeating allegations that I am another ID for a well known Bahai on site. And he knows very well I an not a Bahai. He has come back doing the same. My post was just factual expressing my free speech on this topic and his response you can see for yourself.

As for interpretations of Islam and Arabic - no amount of whitewashing can rescue people like this when faced with the truth and history. Despite their own prejudice which they play out on this site on a daily basis,  if at any time questioned, they rally together to call themselves oppressed, victimized and offended.

Freethought111

You are not one of the Ulama therefore you have no authority. I may go interpret Islam as I want. But it holds no water if it is not recognized by people. If you are really serious go found an Islamic school.

Then preach your progressive views and reform Islam. I really wish you luck and maybe you will be another Martin Luther. Why do you post on IC instead of doing this. Go do something instead of just talking since it gets you nowhere.

Go learn Kurdish

I am learning Kurdish instead of learning Arabic. Kurds are true Iranians with very deep roots. Their language is a beautiful language based on old Persian. Right now Arabic is a required subject in Iran. I would prefer:

• Old and Middle Persian basics to be required.
• Instead of Arabic people have the option of: Arabic; Kurdish; Balouchi; Gilaki; Luri; Azari; or any other major language spoken in Iran.

There are relatively few Arabic speaking people in Iran. There are many more Kurdish speakers so why do we not give that as a substitute? This argument goes for the other languages also.  

No

My grandfather was from Kirman and his family were all 'ulama related to the Ibrahimi family who are the leaders of the Shaykhi school founded by Shaykh Ahmad Ahsa'i (ra).

The US State Department offers the best language immersion programs around. Look into it. My spoken colloqial Arabic sucks. My training has been in classical and literary Arabic. I can fluently read (and write) classical religious, theological and philosophical texts but cannot speak it.

I don't live in the USA.

Islamic clerics

And the establishment they represent are like any frat-boy club. Their agreements are between themselves and as a means of perpetuating their own  club. They are power-hungry, deceitful and they lie. There are good ones amongst them (like Mehdi Haeri Yazdi whom Salman mentioned) but for the most part they are an establishment out to perpetuate their own - and nothing else. The past 32 years has shown this.

It doesn't matter whether I am recognized or not. I know the sources, the languages and the texts and am happy to publicly debate these points with any of these schmucks any time and run circles around them any day. As far as I am concerned, the entire basis of the Usuli ecclesiastical establishment (which is the mullocracy of today), together with the institution of the marja' taqlid (source of emulation), and the VF system of the IRI is illegitimate from start to finish. So what these people say means absolutely nothing to me.

If more Shi'a Muslims in Iran returned to their own sources, things would resolve much sooner.

Freethought: why do you

Freethought: why do you live here in the US?? You are an anarchist, no?? 

Is there such a thing as an authoratarian-elitist anarchist?? 

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

Your grandfather was arab

Your grandfather was arab or Mullah?

I've been trying to learn Arabic for 10 years now, to no avail. I'm thinking of taking an immersion class in Lebanon or Morocco. 

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

University

And my grandfather taught me literary Arabic. I am born in Tehran. One side of my family come from Hamadan. Another from Kirman. Another from Shiraz and another from Qazvin. Two of my ancestors are noted poets, and one of these was the first Iranian feminist who is noted to have torn the veil off publicly on several occasions in the 1840s and was even revered as the return (rij'at) of Fatima Zahra' (as). And you?

Freethought111

You realize that most Islamic clerics agree on death for those leaving Islam. I am not Islamic expert so I will go with their words. By the way I never made a pact. I was simply born into a Muslim family. 

However according to them I had to be a Muslim no matter what. I do not think you are recognized as a source of Islamic rule. If so then please tell me who your followers are. Then instruct them with your more progressive opinions.

Right now those who run Islam are in disagreement with you. I take their rule as "Islam". Because they have followers and you do not. No matter what it is only those with real authority who define Islam today.

Salman

I see the results of the "wealth" Islam brought us and say no thanks! Please do Iran a favor and keep your riches. It is too much for us and I rather be poor! 

Regarding famous pre-Islamic Persians many of the names were wiped off history. Thanks to Islam and its attempt to marginalize pre-Islam. But I will give you some names:

• Cyrus the Great: The man who wrote the first declaration of human rights.
• Bozorgmehr: The adviser to Anushiravan who among other things brought "Kalileh va Damneh" from India to Iran and invented backgammon.
• Zarathustra himself: The man who brought the idea of "good thought; good words and good deeds" to the world.
• Mazdak: Who brought the first communist ideology. Now you may not like communism but it was a revolutionary idea invented in Iran.
• Mukkana: He was not a Muslim and managed scientific miracles. Including creating a "moon".
• Many other post Islam Iranians who pretended to be Muslim.

I do not deny that there are more famous Greek. Mostly because they were more into writing. Their nations did not get taken over by Islam so their history survived. Maybe even there were more Greek scientists and philosophers; good for them.

Greek accomplishments does not make Islam any better. It is just a feather in the cap of Greeks! Same goes for Romans. I guarantee you without Islam we would have had even more accomplishments. It is no secret Muslims burned many pre-Islamic Pahlavi texts. Muslims invaded; burned our books now say "you did not have any books". Well if they did not burn them all we would have a lot more. It is like a thief robbing you. Then saying "you are poor"!

 Free thought: Where did

 Free thought: Where did you learn your arabic?? Are you originally from Lebanon??

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

Truthseeker9

You are misrepresenting, and I find it quite interesting that a Bahai such as yourself would go out of their way to misrepresent the Qur'an in such a way which your religion at least on the face of things says you believe in as a true revelation from God. There is no single noun in the Qur'an for "unbelievers." There are the kuffar and the munafiqin. These two terms mean specific things. I have explained to you what these mean and their context. If you know Arabic, I'd ask you to quote the verses themselves and we can unpack the verses word for word. But I doubt you know Arabic because you are relying on bad translations. Also there is no mandated punishment for apostasy in the Qur'an in the form of killing someone for their change of faith.

Muslims do not allow scholarly study of religion, scientific
research, the facts of history or philosophical debate to challenge
Islam.

In the face of 1400 years of scholarship of every form, this statement is either made from ignorance or from blatant prejudice.

Anything that questions or challenges the dogmas of Islam is "blasphemy", no matter how honest the enquiry. 

That depends on who is the one declaring the blasphemy. There are countless Islamic communities and sects, Sufis, Isma'ilis, Sunnis, etc etc etc, of every shape or form and most of them don't agree on the main features of the Islamic 'aqeeda (dogma). But since I have you here, in your own creed of Bahaism anyone who questions the infallibility of the UHJ or features of Bahai doctrine is likewise declared a covenant breaker, i.e. blasphemer.  I don't see any difference in what you are decrying about Islam if the alternative you propose is going to be the Bahai faith you adhere to.

 for example in 2003 October when 22 Christians were tortured for secretly converting from Islam.

And in 2009 in Uganda your Bahai community there participated in a measure to deprive the rights of Ugandan homosexuals and likewise criminalize any person who knew a homosexual and did not report it. Here on Iranian.com your community has been active for years in depriving the rights and dignities of anyone who has questioned or criticized your community and creed. Elsewhere you have done the same. If you are going to criticize something, make sure you are not living in a glass house.

Seeing these things does not make one an Islamophobe

Yes, it does. Blatant misrepresentations of Islam indeed does constitute Islamophobia and your Bahai community presently appears to be at the forefront of organized efforts throughout the Western world to propagate Islamophobia.

Thank God this was your last comment but I doubt it

Brother Truth(as-it-suits-me)seeker

I think we have gone down this road before. Your by now, tried-and-tested-and-failed technique of mixing half truth with half falsities and present them as valid arguments has so far not produced any convincing result unless for those who are already predisposed to your thinking. Such uneducated comments like:

" Anyone who wants to study the history of Islam cannot do so whilst living in a Muslim country as a Muslim. "

speak for themsleves.

But in a way I am not supposed to criticize you brother. After all your name is. Truth(as-it-suits-me)seeker and not Truth(even-it-embarasses-me)speaker :)))

Sorry brother, I stand corrected :) 

For an Islamic democracy

Last comment

Qur'an says you cannot wage war against unbelievers until you have preached to them. The second instruction is that if they do not convert to Islam, then, they must be fought. The third instruction is that if they surrender, or convert, then you must stop waging war. The final instruction is that if they do not convert or surrender, then they must be killed. There are over 100 verses in the Qur'an that exhort Muslims to fight unbelievers; this includes 'chopping their heads off' (Qur'an 47:4). The verse says that Allah forgives only those who have the right beliefs, and non-believers' actions will 'come to nothing'. "The unbelievers are your inveterate foe" or "The disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy" (Qur'an 4:101 - depending on translation). Qur'an (4:76, 9:29, 9:5, 47:4) and many others affirm that Muslims must fight unbelievers, convert them, or subjugate them.

The study of other religions is discouraged by the Qur'an in verses (16:106, 88.23f) prescribing punishment for Muslims who give up Islam for another religion.No other religion has spread so much by the threat of armed force. Muslims know that many convert but don't really mean it. The crime of apostasy covers this: If you de-convert, then, you can be killed. Also, jihad can be waged against those who do not completely uphold Islamic ideals. These assure that any suppressed communities living in Muslim lands convert along with their children, and cannot de-convert.Authorities in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia have arrested and tortured people for deconverting, or for teaching non-Islamic religion to others, for example in 2003 October when 22 Christians were tortured for secretly converting from Islam. In Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and most other Islamic countries, the authorities actively suppress non-Muslims and violence against them is shockingly frequent and nasty. 

Muslims do not allow scholarly study of religion, scientific research, the facts of history or philosophical debate to challenge Islam. Anything that questions or challenges the dogmas of Islam is "blasphemy", no matter how honest the enquiry. Anyone who wants to study the history of Islam cannot do so whilst living in a Muslim country as a Muslim. You can't point out that early compilations of Qur'anic texts are different to the ones we now have, you cannot point out that multiple verses in the Qur'an directly contradict scientific findings and that other verses get their history wrong: And you certainly can't question the motives of Muhammad nor his army. All of that is blasphemy.

Seeing these things does not make one an Islamophobe. I do not want any religion to be banned, just not part of the state and ruling my life. No need to preach on "Islamic Democracy"!

Cop, where's my money?

Since I have spent the past 32 years in exile and only visited Iran once in all that time, if I am supposed to be a beneficiary of that accursed regime, as you are insinuating, then I would like my cheque/check from the oil rich profits immediately, right now and without delay! Where is my money?

Canard by accusing other of being in the pay of the regime when you are out of arguments only makes yourself look silly.  How much freethought can anyone have when they are incapable of having a reasoned discussion without resorting to subtle and not so subtle accusations labelling people as agents of the regime? None. If you don't like religion, fine, but don't misrepresent and label the beliefs of people who have nothing to do with that accursed regime and wish to be rid of it as much as anyone else.

Yes, I am sitting atop the manbar preaching! Great view from up here :)

You sure sound like you are baalaye manbar

You folks must be ecstatic for 32 years at the helm of an oil-rich country who tolerates your ranting about religion and rotten ideology.  

How much freethought can anyone have when their very existence is entangled and shackled by religion - any religion? 

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IRAN FIRST

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Kuffar & Munafiqin

In war situations the Qur'an states that if all attempts at peace and reconciliation fail with those who hide the truth (i.e. kuffar, plural of kafir from the root k-f-r meaning to cover, hide, conceal something as to destroy it, counterpoised to iman, see Lane) and those who go back on their word and break their pacts (i.e. munafiqin, denoting hypocrites, pass. part. of the noun deriving from the root n-f-q, meaning to sow sedition, tyranny, oppression, mischief, etc), then they must be subjugated, yes. But such verses in the Qur'an are in the immediate context of the Muslim war against the pagan Meccans and especially the Quraysh and their allies.

There is no material punishment for apostasy (irtidad) prescribed in the Qur'an whatsoever. These come from hadith, many of which in my estimation are of questionable origin and whose chains of narration (asanid) are completely open to debate. Just as brother Salman pointed out about stoning for adultory, the same is the case for apostasy. The prescriptive mandates are not from the Qur'an.

The jizya' (poll tax) applies to the people of the Book/Ahl al-Kitab only (i.e. Sabeans, Jews, Christians and, in Iran, Zoroastrians), and the arguable context of that is for purposes of acquiring the military protection of conquering Muslim powers when the subjects happen to be non-Muslims. Again, the context of the jizya' applies to the early Muslim conquests and is something that has rarely (if ever) been applied to non-Muslims since. There have been arguments that the poll tax (jizya') in the Qur'an has an immediate context during the time of the Prophet and therefore has no application beyond it, and so the verses discussing it must be considered as among the abrogated (mansukh) verses.

I am oversimplifying somehwhat, but everything popularly seen to indict Islam as being overbearing or harsh in itself (i.e. the issue) is open to debate.  

Hey Freethought

Call it what you like, it won't change a thing.

Again, I will gladly withdraw the comments once I hear the Islamic crowd everywhere formally denounce violence as a tool and practice what they preach (no pun intended).

The "True Islam" as you people like to put it may have existed at some point in the past, and may still be practiced by many, but is overshadowed by the atrocities committed by the violent branch (AKA political Islam). So denounce it already.  It is killing more muslims than non-muslims.

Truth is that violence is used and sanctioned by many in Islam as a tool and means to an end - It is OK to use it as long as it benefits Islam - Admit it as it cannot be denied no matter what you say.

None of this would matter (to me) if Islam keeps its paws off politics and my ancestral land.

nuff said.

____________

IRAN FIRST

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What does Qur'an say about non-believers?

It is written in the Qur'an, Muslims must fight unbelievers, convert them, or subjugate them. Subjugation always involves non-Muslims paying taxes to Muslims, 'feel themselves subdued', and countless other humiliations and restrictions.  Conversion, Subjugation, or Death.

What about 'Apostasy' and 'Blasphemy' in Islam?

Is this to do with the religion/Qur'an or with IRI? Noone can whitewash over these verses. Not all Muslims know the Quran very well. Many do not read it; many cannot read it (many Muslims are not Arabs). But in a general environment where the afterlife becomes such a cultural totem, and the way to get there is to 'be a Muslim', it only takes a general anti-Muslim slant in Islam before many pick up on the violent vibes, and take up the sword in order to ascertain their own accession.