Pictory

Re consequences

Dear Parham, my reference was not limited to the Islamists' reactions to his deeds. But in general, the ensuing developments that followed the reversal of the fragile trend of democratic reforms caused by Reza Shah's total disregard for civil rights and liberties. The fact that we haven't been able to establish a viable civil society and national dialogue a century after the constitutional revolution, in most part owes to his annihilation of such quintessential elements of a modern society! 

Arj

I agree, although somehow I also think --after all I've seen in the past 33 years-- that the religious crowd is also "unhealthy" on its own and all that happened hasn't been in reaction to Reza Shah's forceful rule. I refer you to Ayatollah Modarress's quote where he admits most of the clergy is made of charlatans and that he should know, as he is a member of the clergy as well! I don't believe that portion of the population is really sane...

How pollsters work ...

‪How pollsters work

Related Blog:

YES, PRIME MINISTER: A Step By Step Guide To Mossadegh's Premiership and the Coup of '53...

Civic vs civil develpment in an age or Rising Totalitarianisms ?

Europe itself was at crossroads when it came to "Democracy" and "Human Rights':

Hitler and Stalin the roots of evil (part 1 of 5)

Knowing that Our own Iranian "Democrats"  leaned more towards Stalin where as our "Modernizers" leaned towards Hitler and Mussolini ( Neither of whom could at the time be suspected for the horrors of the Holocaust or deportations) ... I am not sure how much our so called "Intelligentsia" truly understood the implications, collective responsibilities and mutual concessions those "words" truly implied when trying to be implemented in a land which never truly experienced it firsthand.

Already in the West Very Educated and Intelligent people saw Hitler and Mussolini as Role Models:

Folks Ranging from Charles Lindberg, to Coco Chanel , Wallis Simpson and King Edward VIII and even Churchill were suspected to have admired Mussolini in the 1920's and Even Hitler to some degree before they started waging war against Europe's dominating Powers:

Hermann Goering gives Charles Lindbergh a Nazi medal

Coco Chanel, Nazi Lovers, and the Windsor Set

Investigative-Reports-Secret-Letters-of-Churchill-and-Mussolini

The German and Italian Military Discipline and Economic Accomplishments were highly admired in Post WWI europe where economists and intellectuals hailed the German and Italian Economic "Miracle" overlooking the undemocratic methods used to achieve those so called accomplishments.

I recommend some of you to go and watch Franco Zeffirelli's Tea With Mussolini to realize how out of touch and naive some of the most educated Western Intellectuals were at the time in regard to Mussolini's "charm" , "patriotism" and "efficiency":

And We blame Poor Reza Shah to have been impressed by some of the same modernizing disciplines which he imposed on his backward nation only to achieve 1 % of that economic and social Potential ? ...

However important to us but Notions like "Democracy" and "Human Rights" are not objective criterias to judge  or understand  the challenges of Iranian society at that juncture which in anycase never enjoyed such "luxuries" under any ruler prior to Reza Shah anyway.

So to go and Comparing Iran to the most Perfect Democratic society in the world at the time or even to today's standards is absurd from a historical perspective to say the least.

This is like saying Hamid Karzai is a Tyrant because Afghanistan is not a Democracy like the United States Today.

Such Irrational parallels and distorted childish outlooks on our contemporary history only prove that we Iranians are incapable of a balanced judgement or outlook when it comes to History or Political thought.

History is not about GOOD VS BAD but about EMPATHY ( as opposed to SYMPATHY)

You cannot comprehend it if you don't put yourselves in the shoes of the historical figure or if you don't make an effort to project yourselves in the historical, social and economic context of a given era.

From that point of view when it comes to being IMMATURE I think the so called Iranian Intelligentsia is UNIQUE ...

MOSHIRI's COLD HAND's: Bahram Moshiri Slams Pahlavi Era Gun Ban Policies

At best You Folks are Childish !

Do you think people in France Judge Napoleon's Legacy merely on the Wars he waged or on the number of generals he executed or the fact that there were no political freedoms during his rule ? Or on the fact that he build most of the known institutions which exist today ? Or Both ?

Same thing for Robespierre whom I abhor but cannot deny that the arguments by some historians that he had no other choice than using Terror in order to Save a New Born Republic can be seen as a coherent Argument : 

Maximilien Robespierre, Master of the Terror

But then if the Reign of Terror has to be the only criteria for having an Opinion on the French Revolution or Republicanism as an Ideology, then based on the same critics some of you formulate against Reza Shah ( who was anything close to Robespierre when it comes to cruelty or arbitrary executions) or the Monarchy as an institution ( Constitutional or Not) then I should conclude that the French Republic ( which inspired so many current Republics democratic or not, including the IRI) is Illegitimate ...

REVOLUTION DEMYSTIFIED: Truth and Lies Surrounding the French Revolution

How Fair would that be AGHA DOKOTOR Moshiri ?

HISTORY FORUM: Bahram Moshiri's Take on The French Revolution and Why He Misses The Point ;0)

Being BALANCED is something You Folks are Incapable of  when it comes to History and Politics.

Any one of us can claim to be "Democrats" or that we Believe in "Human Rights" and take a Moralistic Stance of GOOD VS EVIL where does that lead us anyway ?

What is taking place in the Middle East today where some of the Most Brutal Crackdowns are being carried out by so called "President's For Life" in Jomhuryees ( aka Republics) born out of Popular Revolutions which ousted former Kingdoms proves that it is not necessarily the Form of Government which results in Despotism ...

The Real dilemma is Absolutism VS Democratic Practice.

Why does the former always seem to prevail in our country over the latter throughout  history and not just in Iran ?

For instance I don't think Mubarak or Ben Ali are in anyway comparable to Bachar Al Assad or Gaddafi nor can we draw simplistic parrallels between their regimes despite the fact that they all have faced popular upheavels.

I am willing to bet that History will Judge Mubarak and Ben Ali in a very different light  in a decade and that much of the BS we have heard from so called Middle East "Experts" and Democrat Preachers will be put to the test of time. Most probably it will put many of the current commentators to shame in the years to come very much as some articles published by Le Monde ( Eric Rouleau, Michel Foucault) or Humanité or the Guardian ( Naom Chomsky)  back in 1979 come across as the most simplistic and shortsighted commentaries on the Iranian Revolution 32 years later ...

As a Devils Advocate I'd rather challenge you folks provocatively by saying I don't believe in Democracy or Human Rights.

Feel Free to call me or others  if you will who disagree with you by labeling them automatically as a ShahollahI ...  I couldn't care less ... Actually I would take that as a Compliment.

But Before Jumping on Your High Horses as the Only People who are "Democrats" or "Human Right's Advocates"  Prove me Wrong !

For despite the Intellectual arrogance displayed by Some of You Jomhurykhahs, I've got news for you: You are neither more nor less Patriotic than us ... nor are you any more any less concerned about building a better life for our martyred nation based on a new set of rules which could contribute to a more constructive future :

Explaining the Concept of a Constitutional Monarchy to a Staunch Republican

Feel free to call us  so called "Shahollahis", "backward" and "intellectually Inferior " and "uncultured" But Don't You Dare Lecture us on "Patriotism" for you folks don't have the Monopoly of the Heart.

Instead prove my Political Mentor the Irish Philosopher Edmund Burke Wrong when he say's Nations are entitled to "Democracy" and "Human Rights" ONLY if they can Afford it :

Mini lecture on the political philosophy of Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 

I concur !

Best, 

DK

PS : When I use the Term "YOU" I am not targeting Anyone in particular, nor anyone in this thread. My observations target what I feel is characteristic of our COLLECTIVE behavior in general and that of "our" Intelligentsia in particular for more than a century. There are always Exceptions to the rule So hope no one takes my comments on a personal level.

PSS: Oh and If "you" think that "you" can rely on an ANN TELECTUAL like Bahram Moshiri  to substantiate "Your" Jomhurykhah Claims let me tell "you" I have enough INTELLECTUAL Ammunition to Gun His Arguments Down ...

OSS117 Le Pistolet

LOL

Consequences

Dear Parham, much of the problems we face today -- as in IRI's imposition of hejab, Sharia laws, oppression of minorities...) are direct and indirect backfire to Reza Shah's unclalculated and forceful imposition of changes without preparing the necessary social foundations! 

Dear MG, there were many more patriotic Iranian writers and thinkers who were murdered in cold blood by Rza Shah, in addition to many more who were imprisoned, exiled or fled his brutal wrath.

P.S. One's courage (or lacktherof) in battlefields is not necessarily a reliable standard by which his/her leadership is evaluated. 

Origins of Adolph Reza Khan

As coined by Shamlo. Seyed Zia says that Reza Mir Panj on the night of the coup didn't have enough courage to stand the sounds of gun fire, and Seyes Zia had to push him (Reza Mirpanj) through the door.

He's also rseponsible for Mirzadeh Eshghi, Taghi Arani,...and so many other victims.

And yet all these small time Napoleaons (from a Tom Waits song) want to be him!!!

Arj

Very well said, again!

Civic vs civil develpment

One's perception of Reza Shah, emotional attachments notwithstanding, is based on his/her perceptions of modernity and degree of commitment to democratic values. Reza Shah was an autocratic ruler, who not unlike any other despot, believed in his own version of modernism with little regard for democracy and public opinion. While implementing material reforms, his lack of respect for civil rights and democratic principles -- that were heralded by the advent of consititutional revoultion -- initiated a downward spiral in the trend of civil devlopments in Iran. To sum up his legacy in building roads, schools and railways, is to ignore the democratic aspirations of Irianian nation.

During his reign, Reza Shah curbed and quashed freedom of speech and press, as well as political and civil institutions to the point that the mere mention of his infamous executioner, Dr. Ahmadi, would send a chill down the spine of bravest of critics of his autocratic rule. One such example was Farrokhi Yazdi, a prominent journalist, who endured the most savage tortures (his lips were sewn) in Reza Shah's prisons before being put to death for merely loving Iran!

So long as we pick our role models from among those who self-righteously allow themselves to dip their hands in the blood of our nation in order to implement what they see as best for the nation, we will perpetuate the vicious cycle of despotism! Ironically, the ex-pasdars who have the ambition of ruling our nation try to beat each other to being perceived as the Next Reza Khan!    

Tehran e Azad

You just might be right, sadly, you know?

Solve this

unfortunately 80% + of iranians are nothing but a whole bunch of wild animals stuck in the middle ages , that do not deserve anything better than khamenei and mullahs like him. The other 15%-20% should just leave that jungle if they can  and enjoy a free civilized life in the west.I might be wrong but i dont think  Iran will  change into a free democratic state  in our life times. I hope I am wrong, but yet again if things change tomorrow , it will take generations to get rid of people's backward mentalities..............

Agha boro hadde aghal 100 sale dige biya, shayad ozaa taghire asasi

oon moghe karde bashe. till then enjoy your lives while it lasts! 

Polls can say what they want the Dynasty is Still Legitimate

Ex Revolutionaries can hold the Polls they want: 
 

Revolutionaries hang Reza Shah's Bust at Paris Embassy (1979) 



The Dynasty and the Constitution upon which it was built is Still Legitimate:

pictory:Bakhtiar Denounces Bazargan's Provisionary Government in exile (1979)

RESTORATION:Shapour Bakhtiar advocates Restoring the Monarchy

However...

in the poll iranian.com conducted at the turn of the century, he only came in third!
Guess after who?
//iranian.com/Opinion/2000/January/Centur...

re; Why do you think it is?

 Reza Shah and Dr. Mossadegh keep being selected as the greatest Iranians of the 20th Century, by Iranians, in every poll I have seen.

why?, well not much except tell tell signs of a very radicalized nation in 2 camps of extreme contrast. In america we have it in supporters of Obama/carter camp vs Nixon/bush camp which at worst case are voted out in elections. In Iranian system it simply means that one group will gradualy behead, murder or kick out the other 35 million outta country :) as they have done to the last 10 million refugees ;), 25 million more to go.

cheers Ali!!!

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Reza Shah, one of the greatest

In my humble opinion, Reza Shah was one of the greatest Iranian leaders. He was a true visonary and a true Iran-lover. I think his "Kashfe-e Hejab" was his greatest achievement and only a brave man of his stature could dare going for such a revolutionary thought.

Why do you think it is?

Reza Shah and Dr. Mossadegh keep being selected as the greatest Iranians of the 20th Century, by Iranians, in every poll I have seen.

He Was a great man

If it was not for pahlavi dynasty we were a nation like pakistan(fauckstan).

and since these merdruose barbaric islamic regime  we goes back to 100 years ago

There is no limit to stupidity & ignorance of some hypocrite Iranian

Ba savad ya Bi savad ! everything is relative !

Bisavadi ke kheilha doost daran tekran konan maani nadarad, Dar javanish savad nadasht vali badesh  khoondan o neveshtan amookhte va baraye kole keshvar madrese o daneshgah sakht ke nasl e bad az khodesh basavadtar shavand (dar zaman koodakish  joz maktabkhoone akhoonda chizi voojood nadashte)

dar keshvaraye motemaden, autodidact boodan (a self-taught person) eftekhar dare ! chetore ke dar beyn irania bar axse ?!! dar taajobam !

Kash "bassavadane" Iran kami kherad dashtand o Iran be in jahanami ke haast tabdil nemikardand !

(didn't watch the program maybe later....)

C O P.......

thanks for beating me on that response.

I hope these types of peoples will have to pay back to the Iranians for the next 70 yrs.

If it was not for the first steps that pahlavis directed Iran to the 20th century ;today we be sitting in some chu rangi and drinking dood patis like our eastern neighbors.

*in URDU

chu rangi =sq. falakeh

dood pati = milk+tea

Maziar

دم بی‌بی‌سی گرم که خوب بلده چطور سر ملت ایران رو گرم کنه

بابا این بنده خدا،  که تموم شد  و رفت. حالا وراجی چند تا آدم با حوصله و بی‌ کار، در استودیو ملکه کشور انگلستان در لندن،  چه دردی رو دوا میکنه؟ بیایید به فکر مملکت باشید که این ولی‌ وقیح، سلطان علی‌ دزد و آدمکش و دار و دسته فاشیستش دارن به باد میدن.... 

Rea, it was political suicide of ultimate stupidity

He knew he was dying anyway, (terminal cancer), asked to leave for the second time, ...

 The dommage: the people.

Quite predictable that under brutal dictatortships of that time,  that there was no civil society of such to speak of, and another took beyond a stronghold. 

Today, let's watch how communications networks work on the ground... 

Rea

The invading allies forced his abidication and would have deposed the whole Pahlavi dynasty had he not left. PM Mohammad-Ali Forughi negotiated terms with the allies wherein Reza Shah would abdicate in favor of his son and leave Iran altogether. Otherwise the allies where going to impose some compliant lackey amongst either a Qajar or someone else. Reza Shah did the only thing he could.

Indeed he is one of the greatest figures of the 20th century and without him Iran would have been cut into tiny morsels by separatists and colonialists alike.

Tell the truth ....

.... don't understand a word of what they're saying.

But know one thing. He is one of the greatest figures of the 20th century, he marked his era.

Personally, I've never understood if it was cowardliness or courage that had made him leave Iran at the time the country needed him most. One or the other, quel dommage !

Beautiful program with

Beautiful program with great host and very interesting debate amongst our educators & Intelligent students...

The Only thing that comes to my mind personally is that why are we comparing Iran and Iranians of that time and era with Countries and People of Britania and other ones who had already experienced the benefits of Idustrial Revolution (on all levels ...) with a Country and people in Iran who were behind on every level of any proper standards of the time and era even???? A country and people of so many different ethnicity like Iran that have been infected and plagued with a fanatic Religion, Traditions, culture and Superstions... With over 90% of illiteracy and poverty... A country that had no discovered Natural resources (OIL & GAS...) at the time!!!!!

Yes , I agree 100% with Mr. Sayedi too! I'm a Qajar myself and I believe "Enghelab Mashrooteh" was perhaps the best thing ever happened to Iran and Iranians , but only to less than 5% of population perhaps... This Idology & Democracy was way too advanced for general public in Iran at that time and unfortunately even now after 90 years!!! People of Iran couldn't even write their own name, let alone be involved in Government decisions and beyond... That's the TRUTH! Let's not deny the histirical fact by taking things so personal!

And as far as bashing Reza Shah with personal prejudice goes, Please do not be so unfair and prejudice!!! Even Qajars like myself will admit that despite his lack of academic education and direct use of dictatorship , his visions and most importantly harsh actions for betterment of a unified Iran were unfortunately necessary and the positive consequences & results are absolutely undeniable!!! In fact , his patriotic visions & actions reminds me of "Agha Mohamad Khan Qajar" A simple Turkic Tribesman (with absolute love for Persian history,language, people and culture & Iran...) and his own Biggest heart, vision and actions to unify IRAN for the first time, create a central government and give her actual borders for the first time after years or perhaps centuries of "Estebdad & Aashoob" in so called Persia or Iran...

BE FAIR PEOPLE!!! The 75% young Population of Iran are finally understanding where the "TRUE backwardness" of our country & our people really comes from and God Willingly they will create a secular country for all Iranian's prosperity & happiness in future...

Love , Free Iran and Iranians.  

The Russians couldn't establish democracy in 1905/1917

And yet unlike Iran they had a thriving Middle Class and had gone through an Industrial Revolution where as we didn't even have an industry ...

1905 Russian Revolution to be distinguished from the Russian Revolution (1917)

The 1905 Russian Revolution was a wave of mass political and social unrest that spread through vast areas of the Russian Empire. Some of it was directed against the government, while some was undirected. It included terrorism, worker strikes, peasant unrest, and military mutinies. It led to the establishment of limited constitutional monarchy, the State Duma of the Russian Empire, the multi-party system, and the Russian Constitution of 1906.

If they couldn't make it at that juncture how can one expect a far more backward country like Iran at the time to have turned into a stable and thriving democracy overnight ?

Heman Seyyedi is at best truly naive ...

This is the trouble with Iranian Jomhurykhah intelligentsia they have turned Jomhurykhay into a DOGMA and have a romantic outlook on history and don't even look at the reality of the times but instead project their own desires and moral judgements from today's perspective instead of trying to comprehend the reality of the times ...

Explaining the Concept of a Constitutional Monarchy to a Staunch Republican

Recommended Blogs:

RESTORATION:Britain's 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688 and the 'Bill of Rights'

How Truly Democratic And Stable Is The British Monarchy?

Tavana bovad har ke Donna bovad

Reza khan may have been beesavad, but did a hell of a lot more good for Iran than your asswipe mullahs.  In fact, the ONLY good thing you people have done for Iran is open her eyes to the devil of Islam.

Thanks for that!

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

رضا خان میرپنج

رضا خان میرپنج سرباز گماشته بیسوادی بود که خودش هم نفهمید چگونه شاه شد! بشدت به کمال آتاتورک که سربازی تحصیل کرده و قهرمان ملی کشور خود بود حسادت میکرد و در مغز گنجشکی خود فکر میکرد که میتواند او باشد ولی فراموش کرد که چه کشوری او را شاه کرد و بعد هم خلعش کرد! اینکه دیگر مناظره نمیخواهد. و چه آدم بیکاری میخواهد این لاطائلات گو یها را تماشا گوید. حیف وقت برای تایپ این ۴ خط.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3...

Pahlavis Use of Napalm ? Did I misunderstand Kamali's comment?

In Part 3 Go to 10 min: 03 "Artesh Melli Nabayad Mardom Roh Bekosheh"

I think he was referring to the suspicions regarding the IRI regime's use of napalm on the Kurds ( A claim which is yet to be proven ... ) but blamed on the Iraqis at the time:

HISTORY OF VIOLENCE:Chemical Weapons Attack On Kurds (1988)

and not the Pahlavis:

DIPLOMATIC HISTORY: Shah of Iran Grants Assylum to Kurdish Prince Dawood Beg Jaff (1958)

I believe that is what he meant ... otherwise it's misleading ...

Few Corrections regarding one of the Student's comments

Louis XIV of France (who constructed the Versailles Palace) Never said "Justice is Me" but Rather "L'Etat C'est Moi" aka "The State is Me" in other words the Sun King who is known for creating the basic institutions of Modern France believed that nation building needs a centralized government and that reforming the State from Top to Bottom needed a strong willed Statesman.

In other words a modern state encompasses the Judiciary ( and not the other way round) since before Delivering Justice you need to have a judiciary, competent judges, the institutions which can allow the Judiciary to operate.

However much of the institutions which prevail in France today are not the all result of the Louis XIV ( Or prior to him Cardinal Richelieu) no more than those of the French Revolution per se but rather the work of another Reza Shah figure in French History: Napoleon Bonaparte who quite rightly observed: "The Throne is an Overdecorated Piece of Furniture, it is not the Throne that matters but what is behind the throne":

Rod Steiger as Napoleon Bonapart : The Throne is an over decorated Furniture,it is what is behind the Throne that counts

In other words the political project that sustains the political power and allows things to be done beyond the ceremonial aspects linked to the job.

Related Blogs:

REVOLUTION DEMYSTIFIED: Truth and Lies Surrounding the French Revolution

THRONES IN MAJESTY: Versailles Exhibit’s 40 emblematic thrones from across the world

demographics. That mostly thickie Dabashi *has a point

Seriously. Good to see that they are discussing the matter on BBC, but honestly, hardly anybody inside Iran and especially the young generation give a fried-up Twiggy Bar of Nuts. 

Even I can't be bothered to watch this. 

*In interviews he often repeats the power of demographics in the Middle East. 

Such a Refreshing Debate particularly Hossein Kamali's

Such a Refreshing Debate and particularly for me at least those of Columbia Professor Hossein Kamali's

More here:

Constitutionalist Student Shares Views on the Pros and Cons of Reza Shah's Rule

Constitutionalist Student Shares Views On Mohammed Reza Shah's Rule

Recommended Blogs:

Nader Naderpour: How Rennaissance inspired Iran's Constitutional Revolution

Cyrus Amir-Mokrion Pros and Cons of 1906 Constitution