Pictory

Savak+brutality

While Iran was a dictatorship under the Pahlavis, and Savak was an instrument to silence the opposition (Iran was never democratic in its entire history to begin with), you are right that Savak was much less brutal than it could have been if Shah was serious about putting down his opposition.

Take for example the demonstrations- how many riot police did Iran have? Where were the hezbollahi "lebas shaksi"'s to go and bludgeon students and beat them up en masse? How could such demonstrations be allowed to gather to begin with?

The only instrument Shah had to maintain order in cities was the police "Shahrbani", and they were nowhere near prepared to deal with even small riots. This shows how little they expected riots to begin with, which is why they brought in the army out of desperation. Take by contrast today, how many riot police and agencies and thug groups/basijis there are to quickly put down decisively any (even small) gathering that people make-be they students, workers, womens' rights groups, etc. THIS is the true face of a dictatorship.

But our problem is even bigger than all this. In fact, if Shah had a turban instead of a suit and tie, and if he spoke Arabic instead of English and French, he would have been in power for a long long long time.

And if these mullahs had suit and ties and spoke English, they would have been gone long ago.

This is the real problem. Let us be honest. Let us be FAIR. Only then can we find a way forward.

You Wish

Running in circles would be a big step up for you. In your case, it is just completely running away, not standing behind your claims, and instead attacking personally the people who challenge your claims.

There should have been much more than just your last comment decapitated. Who do you think you are calling people thugs, traitors, and advocating for war on Iran just because they expose Khalkhali?

Be FAIR.

Fair

Stop crying. My last comment was decapitated too. The first few line was deleted. I really don't mind yours all personal attacks at all, as long as you don't start crying when I answer back. But from experience, getting in a debate with you is running in a circle.

censorship, misleading

JJ seems to have no problem censoring Kaveh, Jamshid, and me, but apparently Dariush can post personal attacks with impunity.

And of course, Dariush can be rest assured that he has permission to falsely accuse people as well:

"Sure Khalkhali killed many innocent and guilty people, if you succeed in your propaganda and create a war then it would be you who will hold the record."

Who here is advocating a war with Iran? If someone is disgusted with one of the most disgusting figures in our history, the "judge" Khalkhali, then they are guilty of creating a war?

But my 3 posts answering this sort of nonsense get censored, and so do others who dare to question the esteemed Dariush. Let us all bow to the current and past powerful figures in Iran, and take cheap shots at all those in the past regime and those who disagree with Dariush- IN THE NAME OF UNITING AGAINST A FOREIGN ENEMY. When did we see this oldest trick before?

This is the standard for what is allowed on this site and what is not. Great job JJ.

Be FAIR.

Savak wassssss a Matarsak

Yes savak was a matarsak to a very large extent! If it was not an incompetent scare crow, then likes of these animals would not have survived.

Torture chambers? That was "mostly" an urban legend too. Name a few that were there in those "torture chambers", and turned out to be anything other than vicious animals themselves. Exclude the dead ones as I already counted them in and they did not survive to show what they really looked like once they gained power. I have the name of a few who claimed to have been in those chambers: rajai, rafsanjani, khamenei,... Too bad that they were let out. 99% of them were likes of khalkhali. The remaining 1% (likes of bakhtiar, do not know if he claimed to have been tortured though) were victims of incompetence of savak and mistakes that ANY government, including democracies, makes.

Dr. Ali Shariati was another charlatan like the rest of his gang, only that he did not last long enough to show his hand and his ill intentions to the people, as everyone is a saint when he is not in a position of power, like every single one of these IRI gangsters who played victims and cried wolf for decades, but once it was their turn to be in power, well we see the result every single day for 30 years now.

Obviously this site is turning into a joke for IRI propaganda with counter-arguments being censored.

jamshid & Others

You shouldn't get upset, because if you do then you do not believe in shah and his actions.

Savak was a matarsak? I guess all the people killed by savak, were tickled to death. If you were in the torture chambers then you would think differently.

Sure Khalkhali killed many innocent and guilty people, if you succeed in your propaganda and create a war then it would be you who will hold the record.

NOW What?

JJ, what is it about my last post that exposes "John Carpenter" and his lies that constitutes grounds for deletion?

How can it be that this guy gets away with his lies every single time, but if I expose him it's erased?

There's something very wrong when someone can spread an outright lie with absolute impunity, but if that someone is called out for being a charletan, he is afforded protection while the party who discovers and exposes that lie is censored. How can it be that the rights of this person are given protection in order for him to express his support for a sick deranged subhuman monster who killed cats for fun and then killed God knows how many humans? IRANIAN humans!

There's absolutely no difference between this and what's going on in Iraq or Guantanamo. Any time someone tries to expose the truth, someone tries to keep them quiet.

And that last statement is coming from a REPUBLICAN!

Savak was only a MATARSAK

If savak had ANY competence, then none of these criminals, from khalkhali and khomeini to rafsanjani and ahmadinejad would have allowed to see the light of the day let alone permitted to take over the country and bring 30 years of disaster and oppression to iran and iranians in the name of their bogus religion of dark ages of 1400 years ago.

According to baghi, the TOTAL killings by shah's regime from 1963 to 1979 were around 370 excluding during revolution (or around 3100 including during revolution). Most of these were killed on armed street conflicts. The rest were likes of gholsorkhi who was charged with planning kidnapping of an innocent child (valiahd) and offered no rebuttal or denial during his lengthy court proceedings. Criminals and enemies of state are punished in ANY society, including the western democracies.

This is in contrast with IRI and likes of khomeini and khalkhali who executed as many as about the same number of people (the entire victims of shah's regime) in a single day in evin, almost all without ever being present or being allowed to defend themselves in any court of law, some as young as 13 years old (something that shah's regime never ever did).

Savak and mosaddeq are the last threads that islamists continue to hang on to to justify the sheer destruction of iran by IRI and its supporters. We now know that savak was nothing but an impotent MATARSAK; maybe we'll know more about mosaddeq & his toudeh supporters once historians gain access to KGB files as well.

Had shah's regime survived, at the very least we would be looking at a country as prosperous as dubai which has turned into a dreamland destination for iranian youth and professionals.

Even islamists, who lived freely in iran during shah's regime, cannot tolerate living in islamic republic and are migrating to west as fast as they can en masse (the same west that they keep cursing continuously -- what a hypocrisy!); yet they try to justify the murderous IRI regime which they themselves cannot live under. They are willing to let their decedents to never live in iran or possibly never see iran and lose their iranian identity only to satisfy their fanaticism with islam and their hatred for the pahlavis who brought iran out of its dark ages at the end of ghajar era whose major trade was based on opium as afghanistan is today.

comparing Khalkhali with Shah?

If you want to compare Khalkhali with Shah or SAVAK then you better do it on the streets in Iran today. Khalkhali, single handedly, mangaed to kill more than a thousand Iranian innocent people (perhaps even a few thousands) during his role as islamic judge. The number of people executed during the whole Pahlavi era, according to documented facts and research conducted by same people who supported islamic regime at one point, does not reach a thousand. it is obvious that unfair trials and unjustified punishment has been enforced in some cases but that is almost normal in any society (even in United States) because of human errors and other issues which may affect in such circumstances. but the problem with Khalkhali was that fairness and just punishment has been missing in every so called "judgement" that he passed in his "trials". you can never compare actions taken by Khalkhali or any other element in islamic regime with figures of the past. they introduced a new standard for shamelessness and brutality for ruling a nation. that's the bottom line.

More nonsense

JC,

good for you! now I know how your logic and mind work. Just to make it a little clear for you, when you call Khalkhali a "judge" rather than a mad criminal then it means that you really have no clue what a judge is. that's not a big deal but you seem to have a world of your own which everything works according to definitions that you have set for yourself. that's fine too, at least we know it now. we also learned from your post that advisory position to Iranian rulers have run in your family for generations. good for you again. I am glad you brought that up. is there anything else that yo do in your world? do you also hear some sounds calling you and telling you do this and that? just wondering.

I am being censored

Dear Jamshid,

You are right on as usual. I have posted several replies which have been censored. JJ seems to not like me questioning the standards of this site, but apparently has no problem when certain people attack you personally and call you a savaki, thug, traitor.

Some things are indeed sacred it seems...

Be FAIR.

Re: Dariush

This is a quote from your post: "In 1953 as the result of the cooperation of some of the traitors such as yourself (jamshid) and... "

I wasn't even born in 1953. The rest of your post is as worthless as your accusation against me.

I find it truly digusting that any individual, even an IRI supporter, would attempt to defend this Khalkhali character. You are beyond redemption.

Many questions asked of JC IIII...Now the Answers!

1. Is John Carpenter III several people?
No. There is just one John Carpenter. And there is a Iranian identity card issued by the Islamic Republic of Iran with the name John Carpenter III. Before the revolution John Carpenter had a Lion and sword Iranian identity card, "Shenas Nameh". The Carpenter family has always advised the Iranian government thru centuries and to this present day. The Carpenter family advised Iranian politicians since the days of Cyrus the great until the Spiritual leadership of Ayat'Allah Seyed Ali Khamenei. John Carpenter is 100% Iranian born in the United States.

2. Was John Carpenter's comment in defense of Mr. Khalkhali? No. Mr. Khalkhali was just an Iranian judge. Mr. Khalkhali is dead. Iranians should move on. It is 2008. It is not 1979! Mr. Khalkhali judged criminals in the early years of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Wikipedia, Time Magazine, Microsoft Encarta all detail the Pahlavi dictatorship from 1925-1979. These sites are objective, refuting such facts are useless.

3. How can any Iranian attack Mossadegh, Iran's "George Washington"? Well, some monarchists attack Mossadegh. Mossadegh was educated. Mossadegh was smarter than the whole Pahlavi family combined...past,present and future. Mossadegh nationalized the oil industry. Mossadegh's followers backed the revolution but not it's result. Sanjabi and Bazargan were ahead of their time. An Iranian Democratic Republic would do wonders for Iran.

Jamshid

Jamshid, If you don't hear from me is because I must be busy.

Khalkhali was as criminal as shah and savak were.

If it wasn't for the execution of most of the oppositions groups by him, I would say he was less criminal than shah. But he abused his power and was allowed to abuse his power and extended his crimes to many others from SAVAK's chief to opposition groups to drug users and etc.

In 1953 as the result of the cooperation of some of the traitors such as yourself and thugs with the west the democratically elected government of Dr. Mosaddeg was overthrown and many of his supporters were executed and imprisoned by some of these same officers. To do this in a more effective way United States created SAVAK, "your employer" and trained these officers how to identify, arrest, torture and executed Iranians from farmers to students and professors such as Dr. Ali shariati.

It didn't matter what ideology one had. If he/she was not a shah lover they were an enemy and a threat. He silenced who ever spoke against him. Then he created a lavish lifestyle for himself until he became so disconnected with people that he claimed to be God and people became cattle to him. He only realized that he was nobody, when it blew in his face and he started crying.

The executions of savak officers and torturers and other officers in 1979 revolution was a lesson learned from 1953 coup. In order to avoid another coup by the west and traitors, out of desperation for survival of the revolution the officers who were loyal to shah were executed, but many who were loyal to Iran rather than shah did not. Shah as usual ran away and left others to pay for his mistakes with the hope of coming back after another bloody coup.

The proof is that, In spite of all the executions again there was a coup attempt shortly after, which was not successful and as the result a few more officers were executed. With these people were also members of Kordish group called Komoleh who were backed by west and killed many Iranians in border cities and tried to separate Kurdistan from Iran.

Trial of the officers in a civilized manner would have been the right way, but for the reason mentioned and perhaps some anger and revenge it didn't happened.

So the conclusion is, Did khalkhali get out of line? yes, just like many in savak.

Are there still people like him in power in IRI? Yes.

Can you change the situation for better without destruction of Iran and killing thousands and millions? Then more power to you.

Using Khalkhali and alike as excuse for Bombing Iran is not the solution and pressure has not been effective as it puts IRI in a defensive mode, creating less freedom and more pressure on public resulting in imprisonment and executions of opposition in Iran instead of lifting pressure and leaving room for freedom to grow and with that democracy.

This is a fine line. You probably ask people fought Shah why not fight IRI in the same way and put them away?

When people fought against shah, there was no threats from west to ward Iran to be bombed, but now it exist therefore IRI is not going to fight in two fronts one with west and one with oppositions. They will execute the oppositions in Iran to be able to concentrate on the war against the west. Exactly what they did with MEK and others in Iran-Iraq war. Guilty and innocent were executed all together.

I know it doesn't matter to you and people like you what happens to Iran and Iranians as long as you get your revenge, like Khalkhali.

I am sure you remember the torture houses in different parts of the country and cities where savak used to torture people...

Shahyad vs John Carpenter III

Shahyad: There is no doubt that JC III's style is intended to be both antagonistic and dogmatic, ala, "Mr. Khalkhali was just a judge". Well, we all know that he was not "just a judge", as JC III conveniently ignores to mention that Khalkhali would have destroyed all historically significant sites such as the Persepolis and the tombs of any famous writer/poet such as Ferdowsi/Hafez/Saadi,etc... if he was given the green light to live out his perverted fantasies and twisted ideology!!!. No, Mr. JC III, Khalkhali was not a mere "judge". He was Khomeini's most trusted hatchet man, when it came to the interpretation/implementation/execution of the most savage laws, through Khomeini's edicts.

Nevertheless, what JC III had stated as reference material is historically factual!.

darn, I thought this was

darn, I thought this was going to be about a mullah who got hanged lol....oh well, i keep on dreamin

Azadi & Anonymous1236

John Carpenter is an alias used by someone who has also posted under the cyber-pseudonyms of James Smith, Jamshid Niavarani, Jacob Cohen, Yaghub Cohen, among others.

He is someone who seems to enjoy seeing himself online, not to mention the attention he draws.

However you can easily find fault in his nonsense.

For example, here he says that the Shah's men were sentenced to death for crimes they committed against the Islamic Republic. As we all know, prior to 1979, there was no Islamic Republic of Iran. It was, if you remember our passports, the Empire of Iran. Therefore on that basis alone that no crimes were committed.

Bottom line, this guy is not only sick in the head, he is horribly misinformed as well. I'm putting this very kindly and mildly as lately many of my posts have been subjected to deletion, and I think that people need to know the truth about this person.

Not Much changed since Khalkhli

Iran: Court Sentences 3 to Death
Sign In to E-Mail or Save This Print Reprints Share

Iran’s judiciary has sentenced to death a Kurdish teacher, Farzad Kamangar, and two other people on charges of being members of the Kurdish Workers’ Party, an armed opposition group that has led an insurgency against Turkey. Mr. Kamangar and those sentenced with him have appealed the verdict. According to Iran’s penal code, armed opposition against the government is punishable by death.

//www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/world/middleeast...

Folks: We have allowed a

Folks: We have allowed a bunch of psychopatic criminals hijack our identity and nation in the name of one of the most destructive ideology. We need to take responsibility for has befallen Iran before we can blame the sociopaths like Khalkhali, Khomeini. We have stood by and watched this tragedy to continue for 30 years and we have noone to blame but ourselves. Perhaps we don't deserve Iran and we should let it go and become a Another Arabastan!

Cat Lyncher

Khalkhali was in his teens a psychopathological animal killer. He used to lynch hous cats to satisfy his whims.
His personality was not only one of the left monsters of the Early Islamic Invaders destroyed Iran, but also a psychopath who was lurking to kill any living being.

ROT IN HELL & all the IRI

ROT IN HELL

& all the IRI supporters!

Million Rahamat be Pahlavi Dynasty.

Montazeri

So what we see here is there was not much difference between Khalkhali and Montazeri and of course Khomeini.
Montazeri used to call it Islamic Gulf too. However Iranian national memory is very weak.

Don't forget, SAVAK used to deal with savages like him.

This is to john carpenter

This is to john carpenter III, whoever you are. It is people like you that make us Iranians want to vomit. Go back to 30 years of hell that this regime has created for the Iranians inside and outside the country. Three generations of Iranians have lost their country and their identities to bunch of hypocrites who kill in the names of religion and God. Rest assured, that once this regime goes to hell, the new generations will make sure that something like this will NEVER happen. Before, you give us, the so-called facts, open your eyes wide open and look at what this regime has brought to Iran and its citizens.

To Jean-Jean

Jean charpenter, according to you people escaping with money in their pocket are very smart and in 1978 if they didn't flow away the country they deserved to be hanged, burnt, ... by the man-imal, that's it?

By your definition all mullahs in Iran are genius with an I.Q. > 200 (Rafsanjani first). So they deserve that the man-imal comes back from hell to put an atomic bomb on their head... Yeah, I agree with you, they all deserve this

Else, why are you shamed to use a persian acronym? You're ashamed of your father's name, you don't have one or you aren't iranian at all? In the three cases, "Boro kenar bezar bad biad, koochooloo"

defending Khalkhali!

It is interesting to see someone with an American name (john Carpenter) comes to defend crimes of a despicable mullah like Khalkhali and the gang of islamic republic by hanging to the name of Mosadegh and repeating the same lies about American's interest in having Shah in Iran instead of others and wikipedia and Times become the "solid proof" for his arguments.

Believing that Americans or British have "good intentions" for the interest of Iranian people is of course very naive thing to do, the same as believing Khalkhali was a "judge" rather than a mad criminal. from the names that Mr. Carpenter has mentioned, it seems that he is familiar with many Iranian figures of previous and current regime which is ruling Iran. I wonder if he knows that many of those who stole money from Iranian treasury have been in business with their American partners who held or currently hold high positions within US government (from both major parties). When those theives are being directed as honorable and sir by American ruling elite then there is no surprise if we hear an ordinary American who pretends that he knows enough about Iranians calling Khalkhali a judge out of simplicity or ignorance.

Regarding Mr. KhalKhali

Mr. Khalkhali was just a judge. He sentenced to death Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's men who committed crimes against the Islamic republic of Iran. The most famous person sentenced was former prime minister Hoveyda. Hoveyda, by the way, was put in jail by the Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. The rest of the famous people were the Shah's Generals: Rahimi,Nassiri,Pakravan,Naji,Moghadam. Nassiri was to blame for the coup against Iran's "George Washington", Mohammad Mossadegh.
The famous men executed were useless to Iranian politics. The real criminals who stole money from the Iranian treasury were smart enough to flee the country 2 years before the revolution.

According to wikipedia:

In late 1978, at the encouragement of Ambassador to the United States Ardeshir Zahedi and Martial Law Chief General Gholam Ali Oveissi, Nassiri was imprisoned with several other high-ranking officials, including Pakravan and former Prime Minister Amir Abbas Hoveida. When the Shah left Iran on January 16, 1979, Nassiri remained in prison until the fall of Shahpour Bakhtiar's government on February 11. He was executed two days later by firing squad.

See:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nematollah_Nassiri

The Shah's government with the arrest of such individuals guaranteed their execution after the revolution since they were locked up and easy targets for the revolution.

The Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi is to blame.

Who was the Shah's General Oveissi? Look what Time Magazine says:

DIED. Gholam Ali Oveissi, 65, former commander of the Iranian army under the Shah, who became known as the Butcher of Tehran for a 1978 incident in which he ordered his troops to fire into a vast crowd of anti-Shah demonstrators, killing, by one count, more than 4,000 men, women and children; of a gunshot wound; in Paris. Oveissi was strolling along the fashionable Rue de Passy with his brother and a family friend when a lone gunman walked up behind the men and fired a 9-mm pistol at pointblank range. Both Oveissis died instantly; the third man escaped injury. Two groups, the Islamic Jihad and the Revolutionary Organization for Liberation and Reform, claimed responsibility for the killings.
See: //www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,9...

The Iranian Revolution was like the French Revolution. Iran's Revolution has a reign of terror in which corrupt officials were put to death. Many a time, they were put to death by gruesome means.

The Shah fled Iran on January 16, 1979.

On January 16, 1979, the Shah and his wife left Iran at the behest of Prime Minister Shapour Bakhtiar (a long time opposition leader himself), who sought to calm the situation.[26] Bakhtiar dissolved SAVAK, freed all political prisoners, and allowed the Ayatollah Khomeini to return to Iran after years in exile. He asked Khomeini to create a Vatican-like state in Qom, promised free elections and called upon the opposition to help preserve the constitution, proposing a 'national unity' government including Khomeini's followers. Khomeini fiercely rejected Dr. Bakhtiar's demands and appointed his own interim government, with Mehdi Bazargan as prime minister, demanding "since I have appointed him he must be obeyed." In February, pro-Khomeini Revolutionary guerrilla and rebel soldiers gained the upper hand in street fighting and the military announced their neutrality. On the evening of February 11 the dissolution of the monarchy was complete.

See: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

And Bakhtiar was appointed by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi!

You just can't make this sttuff up!

The Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on January 16, 1979 handed over Iran to Ayat'Allah Ruh'Allah Moosavi Khomayni.

And for that fact alone the Pahlavis will never be forgiven by Iranian history.

Berkley and Stanford

Excellent point.
this issue has had me concerned for a long time. It is amazing how stupid the INS can be some times.

scums

من اول ایرانی هستم.

Why are we bothering to repeat his name?? let his name and the rest be fogotten by the passage of time, Islamic Regime is on the way to Hell! I hope, the future generations of Iran, will eradicate Islam as barbaric religion, from Iran..and will be remembered as Dark Ages in our history. Till that time, many more may have to die needlessly for Oil.

Farrokhroo Parsa was another victim of this dog.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farokhroo_Parsa

I was once speaking to a real true self proclaimed muslim..

I was once discussing Iran's situation with a self-proclaimed muslim and IR supporter at Berekely. For those not familiar with Berkeley, ironically, this extreme liberal city is full of these hatemongers, particularly the university. It probably has the highest concentration of IR supporters than any other place in the U.S.

The discussion turned interesting when I mentioned the massive  executions of Iranian youth during the first few years of the revolution. Well, it was not really interesting, it was more like shocking when he replied: "You know when you have infection in your arm, and have to use antibiotic to kill all the germs, you do this in order to save your arm, you do that to save the rest of your body. So Perhaps this was the position Khomeini was in at the time!"

These are the people studying in Berkeley, someday going back to become Larijani, or Mottaki's assistant in the foreign ministry. Good luck Obama trying to converse, and have "dialogue" with these asshole. Good luck!