www.stopchildexecutions.com

DW Duke

Master Duke,

Much obliged for your response. As you said real tragedy is that in most[if not all] of these cases NO crime were committed.

BTW,,,, YT[unplugged] = capt_ayhab[YT]

Regards

capt_ayhab [-YT]

YT [unplugged]

No, that isn't correct as you can see in my discussion with Ayhab and Kevah.  A juvenile is tried as an adult for a number of reasons having to do with everything from the order of the trial to the imposition of sentence but despite being tried as an adult the death sentence cannot be imposed in the US for a person convicted of a crime committed prior to the age of 18 years.  The fact that the US has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child does not preclude the US Supreme Court from rendering such exeuctions unconstitutional as it did in 2005 in Roper v. Simmons.  If you read the Simmons case, to which I provided a link, I believe it will become clear. 

Reply to Capt. Ayhab

Yes, unfortunately there are many cases in Iran where we know that no crime was committed at all.  The people were executed simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or were someone's scape goat.  You may recall in 2007 Makwan Moloudzadeh was executed for smoking on Ramadan.  It is a little more complex than that but in essence that is what the case reduced to.  He was arrested for smoking on Ramadan then the abuse began.  He was forced to ride naked on a donkey through the town and humiliated in many other ways.  During his abuse, some of his school friends said that he raped them when they were 13 years of age.  They later recanted their story.  The judge, relying upon elm-e qazi, the "knowledge of the judge" concluded that the original story of the boys was true even though it was recanted.  On that basis, the boy was executed.  Even under Shariah elm-e qazi, is not to be used in a capital case. 

Sometimes it is for religious reasons.  Under the apostacy law that is currently being considered by the Parliament in Iran, a person can be executed for converting from Islam.  Of course, that is nothing new but is a new codification of the old law if it passes.  There is a new Mel Gibson/Jack Lenz movie being filmed now called "Mona's Dream" which is about the 10 Bahai girls who were executed in 1982 for their faith.  In fact, SCE's President Nazanin Afshin Jam is playing one of the leading roles as "Tahiri." 

//www.payvand.com/news/08/jul/1180.html

And we all recall Mahmoud Asgari (16 years of age) and Ayaz Marhoni (18 years of age) who were executed for alleged homosexual acts.  I use the word "alleged" because as Kevah said, the criminal process in Iran is so deficient that it is impossible to know if a person received a fair trial (paraphrase) and in the case of the two boys it is doubtful that they did that of which they were accused, without even addressing the question of equal rights and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  

Problem is

Asides from technical argument, Sadness of the fact is, even if we assume USA or anybody else does it or not, people who are executed in Iran are not for crimes like murder or rape. These poor souls have been executed for simple reasons such as being gay or lesbian.

This the true inhumane side of the issue. Rest is technical

capt_ayhab [-YT]

Azarin

You are absoutely correct!!!  Iran is the worst offender.  Several other countries in addition to Iran still execute persons for crimes committed while a minor under color of law (court order).  Now for the bonus round, what countries in addition to Iran still execute persons for crimes committed while under the age of 18 years? 

For a hint, you can research here:  www.stopchildexecutions.com

my reply to DW's contest!

Just a guess:

It is the last paragraph:

c) The overwhelming weight of international opinion against the juvenile death penalty is not controlling here, but provides respected and significant confirmation for the Court’s determination that the penalty is disproportionate punishment for offenders under 18. See, e.g., Thompson, supra, at 830—831, and n. 31. The United States is the only country in the world that continues to give official sanction to the juvenile penalty. It does not lessen fidelity to the Constitution or pride in its origins to acknowledge that the express affirmation of certain fundamental rights by other nations and peoples underscores the centrality of those same rights within our own heritage of freedom. Pp. 21—25.

I think Roper vs Simmons error is the line in bold: The US is not the only country...because Iran also executes its juvenile (even after 2005 when the US stopped executing them).

Azarin 

Reply to Ayhab

Ayhab, are you making a joke?  :)  You know full well no one said Roper v. Simmons abolished the death penalty.  Roper v. Simmons abolished the death penalty for crimes committed by a person under the age of 18 years.  That has nothing to do with the death penalty links you  are providing. 

There are matters of state jurisdiction and there are matters of federal jurisdiction.  I don't have time to address it completely right now but you will find the Reservation Powers Clause in the 10th Amendment which I posted for you below.  Now if some state act is unconstitutional because it violates a protection that exists in the Constitution (in this case the 14th Amendmant) as interpreted by the US Supreme Court then it is unconstitutional and prohibited in every state.  Consitutional interpretation of the Bill of Rights is a matter of federal jurisdication and it is a federal question with authority conferred upon the federal courts. 

Here is a link to a copy of the Roper opinion.  I think it will explain it all for you.  //www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-633.ZS.html

Here is the 10th Amendent which confers powers "not" delegated to the United States. 

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Contest for SCE Supporters: Who can tell me what error the Court made in the last paragraph of Roper v. Simmons? 

PS again

Dear DW Duke

USA has Federal system, in another word, States have their own judicial system. That is why you see for instance in some states death penalty has been abolished, while in other states it exists. 

A crime normally is under states jurisdiction, UNLESS state lines has been crossed. States do have different civil and criminal law. That why you see if crime is occurred in more than one state, or the criminal is captured in a different state, to return the offender to state, an extradition order must be signed by judge. 

FYI: 36 states have death penalty, including US Gov. and US Military. Where 14 states have abolished death penalty including DC.

//www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-poli...
Regards

And this is summery by state, the conditions and circumstances for death penalty:

//www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/crimes-punishable-...

capt_ayhab [-YT]

P/S I am not an attorney but one of the course I teach is Business Law.

DW Duke

How so? If a juvenile is tried as an adult, purpose is to sentence as an adult???? Why else would they do it? Stats does indicate that juveniles have been given death sentence.

And shall we look at it objectively? You say US has not ratified UN charter, I agree, however, not having ratified the charter makes the action OK? No it does not.

Purpose of trial as an adult is to IMPOSE sentence as an adult. So if the juvenile is convicted, and DA calls for death penalty, the juvenile will get the death penalty.
As they say, SIX or HALF DOZEN.

Reply to Capt. Ayhab

You are confusing two different issues.  Trying a minor as an adult is not the same as imposing a death penalty.  US Supreme Court cases based on constitutional law are binding on all states because all states are governed by the US Constitution. 

We don't execute people for crimes committed as minors anywhere in the United States anymore though minors are often tried as adults.  There are approximately 2500 individuals serving life sentences for crimes committed as minors because the US has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child.  In that respect we are behind most of the world.  However, we don't execute minors anywhere in the US since the Roper case in 2005.

P/S

P/S............ Actually, The state that I reside in, there is a legislation pending that will enable prosecutes to try juvenile hard offenders as an adult. Needless to say that the crime has to be of a ruthless nature, plus special hearing is required. In another word, a judge must decide if the juvenile can be tried as an adult.

I shall try to get the copy of the legislation for you gents by Am.

capt_ayhab [-YT]

pp/s This state does have capital punishment,  convicted felon[criminal] can get death sentence, usually by lethal injection.

Gents

you are correct, however, you must realize State vs. Federal jurisdiction.

As you notice, there are 17 states that still practice to this date, including Texas. So if the matter is State jurisdiction then their law will prevail. Fed come in when an state line is crossed.
I happen to know this for fact about State of Texas.

Allow me to repeat last portion of my previous comment, which has been reported Feb 17, 2008

The district attorney's decision to try 14-year-old Brandon
McInerney as an adult in the killing of another boy is part of a
soaring trend in Ventura County.

In the past two years, the number of juvenile offenders tried as
adults has nearly tripled from 10 in 2006 to 27 in 2007, officials say
— a nearly 170 percent increase.

Also, in the four previous years — from 2002 to 2005 — the total
number of such cases was just five, according to figures from the
Ventura County District Attorney's Office.

//www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/feb/17/...

capt_ayhab [-YT]

Reply to Azarin

That is a good example Azarin particularly since according to the forensic evidence she could not have even committed the acts of the crime to which she was accused.  She was being molested by the doctor who killed his own son when he caught them. A nine year old female could not have carried the body outside and thrown it in the well as accused.  Despite all the evidence in her favor, because the doctor was prominent in the community, Soghra took the fall.

Reply to Capt. Ayhab

Kaveh is correct.  If you look at my earlier post you will see that I cited the 2005 US Supreme Court case Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551 (2005) wherein the Court held that it is unconstitutional to execute a person for a crime he committed prior to the age of 18 years.  All of the articles to which you are linking pre-date the Roper case. 

Oh Captain My Captain

The data you cite pre-dates Roper v. Simmons.

DW Duke

You say [If you are saying that the US executes people for crimes they have
committed after the age of 16 years but before the age of 18, once
again that is not correct. ..]

Your statement is not correct, lets look at some stats here:

-----------------------------------------------

//www.vachss.com/help_text/archive/17_execute...

17 Executed for Crimes as Juveniles

Originally published by The Associated Press, December 3, 2000

NEW YORK (AP) — Since 1973, 17 men have been executed in the United
States for crimes committed as juveniles, including four this year,
according to the Justice Department.

A new report by the department's Office of Juvenile Justice and
Delinquency Prevention said 74 other offenders are on death row for
crimes committed before they turned 18.

Of the 38 states that have the death penalty, 23 permit the
execution of offenders who committed capital crimes before turning 18.
Such policies were upheld in a 1988 Supreme Court ruling.

The United Nations' Convention on the Rights of the Child states
that crimes committed by a juvenile should not result in execution or
life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

President Clinton signed the convention in 1995, but the U.S. Senate
has not ratified it. According to the Justice Department, the United
States and Somalia are the only U.N. members who have not ratified the
accord.

U.S. critics opposed the convention on several grounds, saying it
would encourage government interference in family matters and override
a state's right to impose the death penalty for murders commited by
minors.

Amnesty International says the United States is one of six countries
that has executed prisoners since 1990 who were under 18 at the time of
their crime. The other countries, according to the human rights group,
are Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Texas is scheduled to execute the third person in four months for a crime committed under age 18.

---------------------------------------------------------

By Kris Axtman, Staff writer
Originally published in The Christian Science Monitor, August 27, 2002

HOUSTON — In America, teenagers under the age of 18 can't drink,
vote, or sit on a jury. The public has come to believe that it takes
children time to develop mentally, to mature fully before they can make
decisions on their own.

But in many death-penalty states, that reasoning changes if a
teenager under the age of 18 commits murder. Prosecutors and victim's
families contend that the child knew exactly what he or she was doing,
and should be held fully accountable for those actions.

Nowhere is this attitude more apparent than in Texas, where
Wednesday the state is scheduled to execute another juvenile offender
the third time in four months. In fact, two-thirds of US juvenile
offenders put to death in the past decade have been in Texas, adding a
new dimension to debate over the Lone Star State's hard-line tradition
of capital punishment.

The US has a long history of executing murderers who commit their
crimes under the age of 18. Since 1642, an estimated 364 juvenile
offenders have been put to death by states and the federal government.

The issue never garnered much attention until the early 1980s, a few
years after the death penalty was reinstated in 1976. In 1988, the US
Supreme Court ruled that children under the age of 16 could not be put
to death.

Currently, 17 states have set the minimum age at 16, and five states have set the age at 17. Texas is one of those five states.

//www.vachss.com/help_text/tried_sentenced_as...

------------------------------------------------------------

The district attorney's decision to try 14-year-old Brandon
McInerney as an adult in the killing of another boy is part of a
soaring trend in Ventura County.

In the past two years, the number of juvenile offenders tried as
adults has nearly tripled from 10 in 2006 to 27 in 2007, officials say
— a nearly 170 percent increase.

Also, in the four previous years — from 2002 to 2005 — the total
number of such cases was just five, according to figures from the
Ventura County District Attorney's Office.

//www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/feb/17/...

-------------------------------------------------------

I am against executing underage criminal, its better left to high courts to decide, However, it is such a disgusting shame to demonize Iran any chance we get.

capt_ayhab [-YT]

An example:Life and death of Soghra Najafpour

It's funny that we always see the same type of comments on SCE blogs! Anonymous people telling us that the one executed was not a child when he/she got executed, so it's actually ok to murder him.

I think Kaveh, DW Duke and David's replies are pretty clear from the “legal” point of view, but I think a concrete example about one of these “murderers” would really clarify the issue for Anonymous minds:Today Soghra Najafpour is sentenced to death for a crime she allegedly committed at 12. At 9, Soghra was sold as a maid to a rich doctor in Rasht. The man used to rape her regularly. On the day of the crime, his 8 years old son discovered his father and Soghra. Doctor got scared and hit his own son and as the kid was unconscious the father asked Soghra to throw the body in a well, that they both did. But when the body was discovered, Soghra was accused of killing the child. Soghra is over 30 years old today. She has spent her whole life in a prison.

Now mr/mrs Anonymous 8, Please tell me! On the day of her execution how would you feel? How are we supposed to feel?

Azarin

Reply to Anonymous 8

Ok A8, I will accept that you not playing games.  I am not sure I follow what you are saying here though. 

"Iran does not execute children for crimes committed at 10 or 13 years old becaues that is below definition of child in iran. Just like the US, it does it to people after they reach adult (16)."

If you are saying that the US executes people for crimes they have committed after the age of 16 years but before the age of 18, once again that is not correct.  If you read the Roper v. Simmons case you will see that the ruling was that no one can be executed for a crime committed before the age of 18 years.  As an aside, I oppose the death penalty in all cases so the line of demarcation of 18 years would not be relevant at all in my opinion.

On an abstract basis I understand your comment that this seems to be an arbitrary number.  Why not make it 21 or 25.  Even if I were to support the death penalty I would probably say the line should be closer to 25.   The point is that it has to be set somewhere and the UN as well as the US Supreme Court decided that age should be 18 years. 

As an aside, the US and Somalia are the only two nations of the UN that have not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child which sets the age at 18.   

Anon8

The age of the prisoner when he/she is put to death is not relevant. It is the age of the offender when he/she committed the crime for which they were convicted.

As I'm sure you know, the appeals process for death penalty cases in the U.S. can take several years.  There have been cases where executions have taken place 20 years or more after the sentence was handed down.

anonymous 8

UNITED NATIONS CONVENTIONS ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD:

united NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS,  NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS, NATIONS ,  

ARTICLE ONE  ( 1)  (AS IN NUMERO VERY FIRST UNO)

....a child means every human being below the age of eighteen years .....

I am not arguing. YOU ARE !

I am just ANSWERING by presenting the FACTS

my ARGUMENT, Mr. Etebari and DW

was that SCE PURPOSEFULLY OMMITS the fact that the people executed are NOT CHILDREN.

MOST PEOPLE who read your articles THINK that Iran executes juveniles. Most people who read the words "Child Execution" they understand it to mean that the person being executed is a CHILD. you purposefully further this MISCONCEPTION there is no denying this.

You want to PURPOSEFULLY leave this impression to most people who are ready to believe that Iran actually kills children. this is evidence because you never say how old these people are at the time of execution. if I did not find this out on my own, nobody would know in this website. this is why i say that you damage your own campaign by acting like this.

DW: i am not playing games, but i don't want to debate you guys. You are only tchnically correct in my opinion 18 is not a magic number. both countries execute people above the age of children. Iran does not execute children for crimes committed at 10 or 13 years old becaues that is below definition of child in iran. Just like the US, it does it to people after they reach adult (16).

That was my argument.

united NATIONS says:

US or Iran is irrelevant. United NATIONS.

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS
not Etebari

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS
not SCE

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS
not Duke

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS
not Amnesty International

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS
not Human Rights Watch

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS

not Javid not Azarin, not.... 

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS
not Ebadi

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS

not Afshin-Jam 

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS

not 350,000 signatures

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS

not ........................

NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS,NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONSNATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS,NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONSNATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS,NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS,NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONSNATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONSNATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS, NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS,NATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONSNATIONS. NATIONS. NATIONS

Stop The NONSENSE for GOD'S sake

ONCE AND ONLY ONCE

...at least ONCE  be honset! only ONCE

END OF CONVERSATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to : Anon 8; Go figure it out

"According to the United Nations, a child is a person under the age of 18. Despite the fact that the government of Iran has signed International Covenants that forbid them to execute anyone who has allegedly committed an offence before the age of 18, they continue to do so."

Your argument doesn't have any leg to stand. You are playing with words rather than real issue. The execution of a child is condemned worldwide regardless who, and where it's been done.

Anonymous8

In your third paragraph you raise an interesting point again one that I have also considered.  However, it does not mitigate in favor of lowering the death penalty age but raising it.  The way I would answer that question is that at minimum, if the death penalty is going to be applied, it has to protect juvenile defenders.   Then those who are over the age of 18 at the time of the offense should be evaluated on a case by case basis with mitigation favoring leniency with younger age. 

take a chill pill "duke"

the moderators in their infinite wisdom did not allow my comment to be published. It had no objectionable words or insults. I had two replies back to back. what you saw is only the second.

in the first, I made the point that you might be technically correct since about 3 years ago, that US has changed this practice but it does not change my anology.

I also said the definition of child in Iran is lower than 18 yrs. old. at last, I said that I do not agree with the US law because it is not fair to execute a person who are only a few days older than 18. why should that person be killed while a friend who is almost 18 will go free? I agree with the original wisdom of the US law and the iranian law which leaves this up to individual cases to decide if someone acted as adult or not.

take that to the board too.

Reply to Anonymous8

Please tell me what you mean by "I don't think you are correct on the definition either."  Is there something you are saying I was not correct about before.  You were wrong on the issue of Iran's application of the death penalty as I showed you in Roper v. Simmons.  Are you going to play games?  If you are I don't have time for you.  I am so tired of confirmed terrorists showing up on websites and pulling in the mentally infirmed and the cognitively deficient that I have little patience for games.  However, if you want to address serious issues lets get on with it and stop the bullshit.  Otherwise, don't waste my time.   

You have raised a valid point that "Child Offenders" might be a more accurate term than "Children."  I have seen many writers use the term "child executions" to refer to individuals who are executed after they achieve adulthood but I have wondered about that definition as well.  You raise a good point and I will discuss it with the board members. 

reply to Duke

I don't think you are correct on the definition either. It is misleading.

The right term would be "Child offenders" not simply "Children". Since "child" has a different meaning in Iran, it shold say "under 18 offenders".

Etebari is intentionally misleading because he does not mention the age of execution in his articles.

Reply to Anonymous 8

Actually, that is not correct.  In Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551 (2005) the United States Supreme Court ruled that a child may not be executed for a crime committed while under the age of 18.  It does not matter if the child has reached the age of majority at the time of the sentencing. The term child executions is used to reflect the time at which the crime occurred.  This is consistent with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. 

Iran's sentencing guidelines in this case are not like the US. 

Kaveh, Zaeeri was TWENTY FOUR YEARS OLD not SEVENTEEN

when he was executed, he was not 17!

The sentencing guidelines in this case are just like the USA.

Anon8

You are correct when you say that many 17 year olds are charged as adults for certain crimes, especially murder.

However, sentencing guidelines prohibit that 17 year old from being executed, even if convicted, here in the US.

I am in favor of capital punishment, but not for juveniles. I can hardly be considered a "bleeding heart". My outrage stems not just from that the crime was committed when he was legally a juvenile, but also because of the IRI's complete disregard for due process in its corrupt, broken legal system.