For an Islamic Democracy

The cluelessness is all yours, MGh

Aristotle and Peripatetism did not influence the Isma'ilis. It was Plotinus, Proclus and Neoplatonism/Neopythagoreanism that directly influenced Isma'ilism. The Enneads of Plotinus (V & VI specifically) and Proclus' Liber de Causis were partially translated into Arabic during the early Abbasid period by the Syriac monk Thabit ibn Qurrah who was employed by the Caliph al-Mu'tadid. I have studied and written about this because two of my areas of expertise are Isma'ilism and Islamic Philosophy. Assigning Kherad (i.e. Wisdom) as the highest faculty and making it into a hypostasis is also not a Peripatetic idea. It is a Platonic one. Plato, not Aristotle, is the noteworthy personage here and Nasir Khosrow explicitly says as much in his Jami' al-Hikmatayn (The Convergence of the Two Wisdoms) which I have studied.

I suggest you read the following work by Paul Walker who discusses one of the teachers of the teacher of Nasir Khosrow: Abu Yaqub Sijistani.

It appears the snapping out needs to be undertaken by yourself.

Choghok

With the exception of Genghis Khan, the atrocities of Timur the Lame, Nader Shah Afshar and everyone else prior pales into insignificance when faced with the genocide committed by Anglo-Europeans for the past 500+ years. Anglo-Europeans have perfected the art of whoelsale destruction like no other civilization before them. Was the Holocaust of the Nazis that killed 6 millions Jews an act of Muslims or Europeans? Was the genocide of the native peoples of America and Australiasia the work of Muslims or Anglo-Europeans? Was the Atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki the work of Muslims or Anglo-Europeans? The answer is obvious: it was the Anglo-European civilization. The kind of cruelty and wanton destruction unleashed upon this planet by Anglo-Europeans no civilization and no peoples before it have ever committed. Not even Genghis Khan exhibited the kind of malefic and sophisticated cruelty that the white man has. None!

freethought, you're so clueless it borders on humor

Ismaelis have had a strong emphasis on rationalism as influenced by Aristotle. Ferdowsi has been considered one according to his Khoda Nameh (intro to Shahnameh). You could take all that mystic, pistic, taxanomy, topology and do what ever you like with them. It's all about Kherad. Rationality, and critical thought.

Kherad bartar  az gohar amad padid.

P.S. Notice the highest order Ferdowsi assigns to Kherad not only in Khodanameh and intro, but throughout the work. and snap out of it.

I am staggered and I am saddened

Unlinke most of you not only do I have a day job but I have a night job too. Yes, I need to work hard to feed my family and work for a devout muslim who needs to take a breaks for midday and evening prayers does not come by easily. This is why I can't I can't follow the thread, including this one, as frequently as I want to.

Anyway, I just logged on and saw a staggering number of ninety comments on my posted blog. I am usually lucky to get five or ten but this is, by my poor standards, far more than what I had expected. But at the same time I am deeply saddened to note that the majority of these comments are  directed against Islam and particularly against  my newly found friend, freethought111, who has stunned me by the depth and beadth of his knowledge and the purity of his faith.

گرم تو دوستی از دشمنان ندارم باک

So I ask myself why?

Why is it that it is perfectly OK to be say a "patriotic" Iranian who by definition is prepared to kill and get killed for what he/she calls the love of his/her country but is outrageous (in the mind of our well known Islamophobes) to have the same sentiments for what you call your faith?

Name just a few peace loving patriots. The moment I hear the word patriotism, I smell blood. Why is it that when a patriot says I love peace and hate conflict, you believe in him/her but when hundreds of millions of muslims across the world are living in peace and seek no conflict you mistrust them.

Saddam Hussain was an Arab patriot.

Adolph Hitler was an Austro/German patriot.

Napoleon Bonaprate was a Francophile patriot.

In Iran's history most of the kings and rulers declared their love of their fatherland and they killed people of the same land in thousands. 

There are many more names that escape my memory but there is one latest additiion to this list. His name: Andres Behring Breivik.

ps - there are many patriots on Iranian.com too. They outnumber the faithful by a factor of 100! Think about it.

For an Islamic democracy

@freethought

Two wrongs does not make one right. No I can not name since I do not know the name of the guys erasing mesopothamian, Egyptian and other civilisations. Wait i do know Nader shah Afshar who killed tens of thousands of indians in days. And teimur link or Ottoman empire. Or you just see the evil and colonialism wheb done by others?

And what about slavery? Muhammad himself had slaves which he set free later according to hadith. But never was slavery haram.

Choghok

Some Manichaeans in northern China, Central Asia and southern Siberia as late as the 14th/15th centuries would probably wish to ask the Parsis in India what they, as Manichaens, are doing in northern China, Central Asia and southern Siberia when their Prophet Mani was a Babylo-Iranian and a subject of the Sassanian empire.

What happened 14+ plus years ago with the defeat of the Sassanian empire and the subsequent Islamicization of Iran was also previously undertaken by every conqueror before the Arabs - and not just in Iran. The Sassanians did the same, and in the case of the Mazdakis they committed wholesale genocide and assimilation of what was left of their communities. Just because Islam and Muslim happen to be the white man's scapegoated "Jew" of the 21st century - to which every real and imagined thing is attributed - does not make it fact. Furthemore, Iranians were responsible for the cultural and political consolidation of Islam long after the Arab conquest.

Many Iranians unfortunately seem to have a skewed vision of history and a cultural inferiority complex to boot vis-a-vis Anglo-Europeans, not realizing that the greatest evils in the past 500+ years have been exclusively perpetrated by the white man and his civilization, and not from any Arabs and their religion! Show me one Muslim leader who did what Cortez or Pizarro did to the native peoples of the Americas!

Tis the part you missed, B+

المؤمن مراة المؤمن و الكافر مراة الكافر

Spot on,  or on to an insight even more significant? People who see and recognize Truth (few as they are in this world and as precious as  they are as a gem from Solomon's mine) become reflections of Truth and so to each other (whatever they may call themselves or label themselves otherwise) whereas those who cannot or will not or refuse to recognize Truth - but rather recognize only what is false, fake, inverted - are likewise reflections of each other. This has been expressed with equal lucidity in every revealed scripture and wisdom teaching the world over, including in the Avesta as well as the Qur'an. Contemporaries, especially the trend and fad obsessed mainstream of the Iranian diaspora in the West, usually have the capacity to recognize Truth beaten out of them (unless, that is, they make great personal, inner efforts to overcome such blindness and so return to Truth). 

What SF has stated here and elsewhere is Truth and why our diction may sound the same because it is not 'I' or 'SF' speaking (or beating our keyboards) but the One Eternal Truth expressing Itself through the two of us. People like most of you folks here can never understand what this means - unless, that is, you get over yourselves and return to Truth. And Truth transcends every religion, label or creed! It is that It is...

Freethought and Salman

If an Iranian guy would say go to India and bring himself Indian army and then by force of military overtake the country killing your countrymen and force you to change religion, would you be proud of that guy?

If you say Islam was not forced then go to india and ask Parsis there what they are doing there. 

Raoul: You are spot on. Good

Raoul: You are spot on. Good catch.

Raoul1955

If you mean the historical Salman Farsi, then I am honored. Thank you, since the historical Salman Farsi is considered a luminary in the pantheon of Shi'a esotericism and gnosis. Classical Isma'ilism considers Salman Farsi to be one of the Pillars (arkan) of this present cycle (dawr) of sacred history. If you mean the author of this blog, then this person and I are different people.

Freethought111

Your writing style is very close to to that of Salman Farsi's.   :-)  Perhaps you two took the same English writing [style] courses together?

Mash_Ghasem

Sorry for the text coming out garbled. Not my fault.

Anyway, your intellectual hero sounds typical of a whole cast of crypto-existentialist postmodernists that are dime a dozen amongst so-called circles of Iranian intellectuals these days. He is trying too hard to sound like an Iranian version of Nietzsche but instead is coming out sounding quite pretentious. He doesn't impress me. Sorry.

He is quite right that as compared to polymaths like Nasir-i-Khosrow, Ibn Sina and Ferdowsi we are nothing. We and every last one of our contemporaries are truly nothing in comparison to these men! Nevertheless I detect the whole angst-ridden pseudo-existentialist narrative of postmodernism wafting from his general argument. Yes, we are nothing compared to these men. Yet do not forget that all three of these men were Shi'i Muslims (two explicitly Isma'ili or with a previous Isma'ili association in Avicenna's case). Nasir-i-Khosrow Qobadani was not some rationalist using his Isma'ili affiliation for some ulterior intellectual purpose. He was a Fatimid Da'i (a missionary) who was a disciple of the Fatimid Da'i Mutlaq (Supreme Preacher/Missionary) Mu'ayyaddin Shirazi during the reign of the Fatimid Imam-Caliph Ma'ad al-Mustansir bi-Llah. So I am not sure what overall point your friend is trying to make. These men were Muslims - heterodox by orthodox standards but Muslims nevertheless. Does he acknowledge that?

Here you go...

I don’t feel myself to be a thinker nor an intellectual,
which these days in our culture is dime a dozen [idiomatic English equivalent
to the Persian idiom, ‘az daro divar rikhtan’ – f111], nor a researcher; and, furthermore,
nor am I a leader or guide to a brighter future. Neither do I possess a key nor
can I make one which is able to open the closed doors of the future, to which
our elite have found and seen the four vaults thereof. Therefore I must be
permitted to remain absolved from any association of being an <<intellectual
person >>. This request that I make is based on a discernment that is
predicated upon a bold claim, positive or negative, that until now has had no
prior precedents. Such a claim, with all the addendum associations related to
it,  likewise applies to all our
contemporary makers of culture. Precisely for this reason many of them, at
least within their hearts, look at me squint eyed/in skewed fashion [idiomatic English
equivalent for the Persian idiom, ‘chap chap negah kardan’ – f111]. Such a
reaction from their general direction is naturally quite childish and emerges
from those who consider themselves, beyond limits, while taking themselves too
seriously, the authorized setters of [social] agendas amongst our cultural contemporaries.
The aim of my thesis in the first instance are those who have set our cultural
foundations, in comparison to whose learning and capacities, in fairness, we
are as nothing. I have shown examples of their capacity in a few instances,
like Nasir-i-Khosrow, Ferdowsi and Ibn Sina.

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translation

Mash Ghassem jaan,

It is getting very late, so let me translate one sentence now and maybe more later on. 

 =============================

Precisely for this reason, many of them, at least in their heart, look at me left left.

عیناً به همین سبب
بسیاری از آنان لااقل در دلشان به من چپ‌چپ نگاه می‌کنند

Translate this into English, and let us see just how much you

understand Mr. Dostar.

تز "امتناع تفکر در فرهنگ دینی"

به‌ این‌ ترتیب تز امتناع تفکر در فرهنگ دینی که در پرتو مستقیم یا

-------------------------------------------------------

یک نشانه و نتیجه‌ی ریشه‌یی پرسیدن و اندیشیدن ضرورتاً بیرون آوردن تمام
وجوه زندگی از یکنواختی و تکرار، پدید آوردن گوناگونی در آنها و دادن
چهره‌ها و جلوه‌های نو به آنهاست، همراه و هماهنگ با نظامی که پرسیدن و
اندیشیدن به‌وجود می‌آورند. نشانه‌ی دیگر در پیوند با آن اولی، کوشش در کشف
و فهم مشکلات خودمان و در یافتن راه‌های ممکن برای رفع آنهاست، بدون کپی
کردن از فرهنگ غربی

Mash_Ghasem

Nasir-i-Khosrow was an Isma'ili Shi'a Muslim. Abu Ali ibn Sina was from an Isma'ili Shi'a family who turned to philosophy and regularly frequented the company of Sufi Muslims in Nishapur. You are certainly familiar with the stories of Ibn Sina's friendship with Abu Sa'id ibn Abi'l-Khayr and the famous conversation between them where Abu Sa'id is noted to have said, "he (Ibn Sina) knows what I see and I see what he knows." The views of Mr Dostdar are irrelevent and his views on religious history are marked by his generally warped perspective. I have read some of his material and I am not impressed. Furthermore he is not taken seriously where it counts because there is nothing novel about anything he says. He is a revisionist and his historical revisionisms are a species of propaganda.

What do you want to know about religion under the Achaemenids?

Where's the translation?

First things first. Also the first with a correct translation, shall get either one of his books or dark chocolate.

LOL .. Masoud

I searched .. it got me to some other places.... 

//www.sarbazan.org/index-Dateien/Page895.htm

MG ..  can I get some Chocolate instead ?

: ) 

cut-and-paste and google

Mash Ghassem jaan,

The google search gave me this:

//iranian.com/main/blog/hooshang-tarreh-gol-7

:-)

Do I get the book?  Or google gets it?

...

Also SK thanks for the condescending tone. What you need to understand is: Ferdowsi, Naser Khosro, and Ibn Sina. We have all the elements of a  Rationalist thought in Iran. Don't need to import some from Europe, though Ibn Sina did read Greek philosophy and was influenced by it.

Before your start your studies of Iranian Rationalism, translate the piece below into English, that might be a good start in critical thinking.

یک نشانه و نتیجه‌ی ریشه‌یی پرسیدن و اندیشیدن ضرورتاً بیرون آوردن تمام
وجوه زندگی از یکنواختی و تکرار، پدید آوردن گوناگونی در آنها و دادن
چهره‌ها و جلوه‌های نو به آنهاست، همراه و هماهنگ با نظامی که پرسیدن و
اندیشیدن به‌وجود می‌آورند. نشانه‌ی دیگر در پیوند با آن اولی، کوشش در کشف
و فهم مشکلات خودمان و در یافتن راه‌های ممکن برای رفع آنهاست، بدون کپی
کردن از فرهنگ غربی

If you identify the writer of the lines above, you might get one of his books as a prize. 

Democracy requires two qualities

!) COMPROMISE

2) TOLERANCE FOR DIFFERENCE IN OPININS

  These two qualities enable a society to establish a democratic system. Religious law does not brook any compromise or tolerance .......laws based on scriptures .Thus democratic prospects are totally blocked by the power of scriptures or the power of eclesiasthics .

Also MG

Perhaps it will be difficult for you to accept the quote I am posting below but once you understand, your judgments and views about history and religion hopefully will change.

"The mission which European intellectuals and seekers of liberation undertook in their struggle with the church, the religion of the Middle Ages in Europe resulted in the liberation of European thought after 1000 years of stagnation.They struggled against this deviated religion and religious deviation. They developed a resistance movement against a religion ruled by an arrogant despot who, in the clothes of the Prophet Jesus, rebelled against God's Commands. The ruling clergies have controlled history and they have shadowed over the real teaching of Jesus and made it blurred, passed over and forgotten."

The above statement can perfectly be applied to Islam as another religion going through the same ordeal these days  ...  

Iran, today, is facing the dark ages and we are in desperate need of a renaissance.....

It is always religion that destroys the religion and no one else should be blamed for .....  

Salman Denial is not a river in Egypt

I don't see you condemning Khomeini or the IRI which have done far worse than this Norweigian fundamentalist mirror image of islam.

Peaceful Moslems who are indifferent to IRI are part of the support of this dirty system we have in Iran today.

Instead I see you are promoting a concept which is already a failure in Iran and which most people want to send to the toilet.  That doesn't exactly give you much of a basis on which to make any arguments against the Norweigan.

Sadly for mullahs iran is full of people that are prepared to use bullets to handle the ntolerance that islam has spread in Iran...

And what is the worse case scenario, should they come to power very soon?

All the basiji, mullahs and government employees don't even add up to 1 million people, maybe maximum 800,000.  Surely you don't oppose spilling the blood of tyrants in order to restore freedom?

It's not like basiji's, mullahs and those who enabled them in power are innocent like the children the norweigan guy attacked.  No question the hundreds of people executed and tortured and millions enslaved have someone they can point to in the criminal system now governing in iran.

Denial doesn't serve you or the mullahs, treating mullahs any differently than they treated a nation would be the most dishonest and unjust thing I could think of. 

I hope the mullahs stay united and belittle the rage of society a little longer and contiue humiliating the country just a little more, so they never ever forget the lesson coming their way.

Good subject.  Gives us an opportunty to educate.

Aghazadeh Salman and Anders

Aghazadeh Salman and Anders are kindered souls or maybe more like kindered soul-less.

Dear OMID PARSI: That is what I told our Aghazadeh Salman yesterday. He is the Iranian Anders Brevik. Clear case of projection.  He commands respect without merit or showing any powerful intellectual argument to state his case or prove his stance. He resort to vitriolic name calling and arbadeh keshi just like his brethern Basiji. I gave up on him yesterday...He is an Aghazadeh with a lot of vested interest in the IRI despite his sometimes anti-IRI rhetoric.

There are MILLIONS of Anders Behring Breiviks in Iran ..,

They are called the BASEEJ and IRGC!! AND THEY ARE IN POWER and their crimes of the last 32 years make Anders Behring Breiviks look pretty civilized in comparison... Their enemy is not your "Sweet and Innocent Islam" but Iranian Heritage, as well as Western Civilization. If you are going to "draw a parallel", that is all there is to it.

Dear "Salman Farsi": Please acpet the honors: It is people like you that have made the Anders Behring Breiviks phenomenon possible in the first place...

MG.....

Number one reason that anyone starts to hate his or her religion is the action of people who claim to be religious .....  I have heard many times among Iranians especially those in Iran myself included who say. " If this is Islam then I shit on it "  

Some stay away from it. Some like me look further and deeper in to the real problem  ..... 

I do not think so those who have chosen to deny Islam as the result of the actions of the so called muslims are in the wrong path ....... I think those who have created this mess  by pretending that they are muslims are in the wrong path ..... By saying " to choose and only he knows why and how we have come to choose whatever it is that we have chosen" I meant that 

Sorry if i was not clear ......

Living in a theocracy called Islamic Republic of Hell is hardly

 A " God given  freedom, to choose and only he knows why and how we have come to choose whatever it is that we have chosen"

The choice in there is enforced by lashing, stoning, torture and execution, exile if you're "lucky."

Where is the part for personal responsibilty in such a choice? Why "only he knows why and how we have come to choose whatever it is that we have chosen"  Is this a conversation amongst living non-alienated adults aware of their lives and choices or is it all pre-determined by your little Allah?

Dear Salman

Some here on the Iranian.com have developed allergy to Islam and there is no cure for it... the more they encounter with those who talk about religion the more allergic they become ....  Leave them alone .  Who cares anymore ...  Islam does not need our defend ... if they want to hate it then let it be ...God has given us the freedom to choose and only he knows why and how we have come to choose whatever it is that we have chosen..... Having said that by no means their abusive and rude tone towards you are justified.  Perhaps there are some  Breivik wanne be among the IC commentators ( just look at Oon-Yaroo's comment ). Thanks God that they are just throwing keyboard at you rather than bullets  .. LOL 
 

I was thinking about this Norway guy and how he has been influenced by the Neocons injection of daily dose of hate  ..... Crazy comes in all colors, ages, sizes, sexes, religions, and race ...... 

A friend poet of mine  in the light of recent event wrote ,

" So here we are today, trying to make peace by making war. Trying to protect life by killing it and trying to own Earth like a Wall Street commodity. The blind leading the blind and the pit becoming more and more filled with death."  

(1/4) The Hate Mongers Among Us

"Hate is a harsh word. As the counterpoint to love, hate reigns supreme among those emotions that the faith traditions seek to expunge from the human heart.  Hate we're told is the face of evil seen in plumes of smoke and ash on 911. Yet hate also serves a purpose for those adept at catalyzing conflicts. In the aftermath of that horrific event, hate we're assured is a desired emotional state. Yet induced hate led us into two unwinnable wars. Hate may yet take us into Iran. Or Pakistan. That hate is also bankrupting us both financially and psychologically.  "