Why Communists are not Popular in Iran

Share/Save/Bookmark

religionoutofgovernment
by religionoutofgovernment
02-Dec-2011
 

In a recent blog;

//iranian.com/main/2011/dec/maryam-namazi...

I expressed my opinion that communists are not popular in the Iranian community and atheism should move beyond communists such as Ms. Maryam Namazie. Behrooz Gillani whom I respect, asked me for a census suuporting my assertion that communists are not popular. Here is my response to him:

I believe Communists are unpopular in Iran,or I would say Iranians hate the Tudah party and some may hate all communists by extension. Please do not take this personal. I consider you a respectable intellectual. I agree with you on many issues but not on communism/socialism. 

About the popularity of communists in Iran you ask for a census. You know very well that there is no such census, just like there is no proof of God! But the burden of proof is on who?

 Let me tell you my reasons to think communists are unpopular:

 1. In a recent interview on an Iranian TV, Ms. Azar Majedi stated that her Iran Workers and Communist Party ( same party that Ms Namazie and possibly several IC bloggers belong to) has a total of 200 members. I remind you that there are possibly 3 million Iranians living abroad.

2.  Iranians do not forget the Tudeh Party. Need I say more? When you post a picture of Kashani as a traitor, let me remind you that the Tudah party had a bigger role in the downfall of Mosaddegh. They considered him an agent of the Americans in a world game of changing powers from the British to America. The threat of Tudeh party was exactly the reason for the US to switch their support from Mossaddegh to the Shah and to give in to the British and MI6.

3. Iranians have become much more scholarly in the study of history. Many scholars have examined the Soviet, British and US archives. The evidence overwhelmingly points to financial and political support of all leftist groups from the Tudeh party to even MEK by the soviets. The references are plenty including Milani's recent research and others. Iranians know this and will not forget.

4. The downfall of ALL communist countries (too many to name in my post!) has created an image of a bankrupt ideology. I know, I know, you and Ms. Majedi and the late Hekmat believe that your brand of communism is different. But this is an argument for a different post! The fact is the worldwide failure of communism has created the image of a bankrupt ideology. Many Iranians are surprised to hear that there are still people who believe in communism!

5. Anecdotal evidence. I know and talk to many Iranians. I know of only one person who is a communist. 100's of others have opposite views. They want a democracy with free private ownership. The one communist I know is a member of Majedi's party. He constitutes a small but significant percentage of their membership base (0.5%). He lives in the US and owns multiple businesses. He is a true entrepreneur! (more on hypocrisy later).

 6. I believe people are tired of all ideologies. They want free votes. They want freedom of capital and ownership. As much as you want to argue, restricting ownership of capital and democracy are not compatible.  People know that. People have learned that ANY IDEOLOGY breeds hypocricy. Why should a selected few ( whether Islamists or Communists) should have the power to implement the idea of Utopia? People do not want Utopia, they want votes and freedoms. Communists had their chance in many countries and failed. Iranian do not want their country as another testing ground for for a different version of the same failed ideology. They have had enough. 

 I do however believe that there will always be idealistic communists/socialists. All western and free societies have fringes to the extreme left and right. They should have the right to express their opinions and form their parties. However, freedoms should be respected so a small group of idealists/hypocrites never seize power again. 

Regards

Share/Save/Bookmark

Recently by religionoutofgovernmentCommentsDate
Mosaddegh, Bazargan, Bakhtiar and Fred!
11
Aug 05, 2012
Anglophile, Are We Better Without Him?
15
Jun 17, 2012
The political spectrum in the future democratic Iran
2
Jan 11, 2012
more from religionoutofgovernment
 
Arj

Re private property

by Arj on

Dear ROG, I have no idea why you went on a tangent on the current economic turmoil, for my post had nothing (in direct relations) with it! My point was to challenge your claim that capitalism would protect private property ownership! I used as an example the treatment (in total disregard) by the U.S. corporate capitalism of the home owners in the sub-prime mortgage fiasco in which people were lured in with the illusion of ownership of a property (their home) and their mortgages were sold on the stock market as commodities to third parties and eventually resulting in homelessness of millions of people! Do you call that protection of or even respect for private property?! Bear in mind that none of that is illegal in principal (except the occurring secondary infractions) in a capitalist system!


religionoutofgovernment

Castro

by religionoutofgovernment on

This one I couldn't pass on. Precious!

 

//3.bp.blogspot.com/-BemWJJUk0KU/TmOLMPQJoAI/...


religionoutofgovernment

Cuba

by religionoutofgovernment on

I won't bother posting pictures of poverty and the homeless in Cuba. Everyone can google that for themselves.


religionoutofgovernment

Roozbeh Jan

by religionoutofgovernment on

I have no doubt that you want the best for Iran and Iranian kids. I have a good feeling that you have a noble character. But as an observer, I have to say we iranian have heard too much rhetoric and "Shoar". Everyone wants the best for Iranian kids. It will be very very hard to convince the public about communism, but ignoring all the recent history in communist countries and bringing Cuba as an example. I am not saying this in a confrontational way at all. I am truly saying this as an "on-line friend". Like I said, you are an intellectual and I respect you despite our disagreements. 

Cheers


Roozbeh_Gilani

your link, takes me to a picture of child labourers

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

in pre revolution Russia!

But of course there will be a guarantee. Cuba, lacking none of the natural wealth and resources our country posseses, enjoy much higher literacy rate than the united states. One of the best healthcare systems in the world. world leader in number of medical fields, etc.  And remember, Cuba has many issues that we all know of (human rights abuse, dictatorship, ), and is by no means a socialist state. They just managed to implement some socialist policies in Cuba and see the results, despite complete, airtight economical embargo of the country by US for more than 60 years now.

Now, Just imagine what our country, Iran with all it's natural resources could achieve with socialism...

 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."


religionoutofgovernment

Only if there was a guarantee!

by religionoutofgovernment on

Because last time we had communism this is what soviet kids looked like:

//formaementis.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/hu...


Roozbeh_Gilani

Socialism against Allah and Free enterprise.

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

For these kids, Socialisn, means: Free & guaranteed   Education with no more exploitation of their labour, be it in the name of "allah" or "free enterprise".

socialism means, peace, jobs, affordable housing, food &social justice for the parents of these kids.


religionoutofgovernment

just kidding

by religionoutofgovernment on

I was only kidding in my last post! Of course, it is not all about money. I never said that. In fact, I have always put freedom, democracy and human values above all. 


default

Dude it's not all about money. How about the community that

by Hooshang Tarreh-Gol on

made all such arrangments to be possible at the first place. It's a lot more about ties, bonding and a sense of playing football in snow, in freezing weather.

Why does every single thing has to be commodified and monetized? Could it be that perhaps we internalized Capitalist ideology so much, we're not even aware of it?


religionoutofgovernment

Packers

by religionoutofgovernment on

Hey, I will be the first one in any communist country where they pay me as much as a Packer player!

Cheers and stay warm you cheesehead! 


religionoutofgovernment

Houshang Jan

by religionoutofgovernment on

What a great surprise! I had never expected to see you post those 2 links.

For a more detailed discussion of the Kondratief wave theory see chpter 7 in this book by the Swiss economist Mark faber:

 //www.amazon.com/Tomorrows-Gold-Asias-Age-Discovery/dp/9628606727 

 Mark Faber is a prominent Austrian economist, a follower of Ludwig Von Mises whose economic theory is in contrast to the Keynsian theory:

 //mises.org/ 

 If you think you would find any socialism in these guys, don't hold your breath. They are capitalists to the core, believing in no or minimal intervention in the free markets, including abolishing the federal reserve. For further reading you can read the book The Creature for the Kekyll Island:

//www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Island-Feder...

 Again, don't expect to find anything but pure capitalism here.

I also like your second post on The Sixth Wave.  Economics is fluid and constantly changing, much like politics. There is no economic blueprint not the bible, not the Quran and not the Communist manifesto.


default

Green Bay Packers, as the ultimate argument in favour of Public

by Hooshang Tarreh-Gol on

ownership. Their records speaks for itself.

This is the only municipality/publicly owned team in the US. It won't be an exaggeration to call them the best team in American Football ever. On thier way to yet another super ball victory for this year as well.

Once a cheese head, always a cheese head!


religionoutofgovernment

VPK

by religionoutofgovernment on

Agree, agree and agree.


default

Kondratiev wave

by Hooshang Tarreh-Gol on


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Dear ROG

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I agree people have a right to their opinions. But there is a right and wrong. For example we all have opinions but 3+3=6. No matter what anyone think or how they vote. Same goes for "pi". You don't get to change its value democratically.

The problems with economy have real causes. If we put ideology aside it is very obvious why they happened. Over speculation; inflated values and betting with other peoples money. There is no question these are the basis for the problems.

When a 100 K house is inflated to 500 K. Or a worthless "dotcom" with no profit or revenue sells for 200 $ a share there is a problem. It gets worse when governments privatize profit and socialize losses. Not matter what opinions are facts still remain.


religionoutofgovernment

Dear ARJ

by religionoutofgovernment on

You listed several very interesting point, which I would love to discuss but will several long posts to answer. Let me address the first one here.

 In your first paragraph you stated your views in the current economic problems. Please see my earlier post on The Economic Turmoil. Every group from different points, along the political spectrum, have their views on this economic turmoil. Yours is not an uncommon one, but there are also those who have exactly the opposite view. They believe that our problems originated because of the balooning deficits of governements who spent too much on social programs, etc etc etc. I am not taking sides here, but only mentioning that there are people JUST AS CONVINCED AS YOUR ARE in their views which are 180 degrees from yours.

My point is that we all should have the right to express yourselves in a democratic system. We have our votes, we can campaign, join parties and try to convince others to vote for our causes. However, those who want to bypass this process, want to implement their ideas by force and call it a revolution are lunatics. This goes for the person who kills a Dr. who performs abortions, because he believes his God wants him to do so. It also goes for those who break into and occupy banks and institutions, because their gospel, the communist manifesto, is telling them so, thinking they are going to create the ultimate Utopia.

 


Arj

Re ideology

by Arj on

Dear ROG, Capitalism itself is an ideology! So is aggrandizement of the pivotal role of "private prpoerty" to the point of transgressing on collective interests of a society! This favourite buzzword of rightwing idelogoues is indeed nothing but a ploy to scare people of social programs and intimidate them into submitting to the corporate agenda they're hard at work to press! A great example of such crporate agenda is in the U.S. in which the corporate interests have not only taken over the social interests, but in effect, have made a mirage of the private property ownership! Undoubtedly, it's safe to say that the most prized and valued possession of a (average) family is their home. Yet, over the past decade or two it has become a vehicle of exploitation of general population by the corporate finance and Wallstreet!

Just look at the significant number of foreclosures in the U.S.! These were homes whose mortgages were treated as commodities on the stock market and changed hands so many times that not only rendered them unaffordable for their "owners," but it helped bring down the entire social and financial systems! Nonetheless, the paradox here is who's to determine who is the rightful owner of the property here; the home "owners" who've been foreclosed on, the bond holders who have purchased these mortgages as a market product, or the corporations who have cashed in on the deal and yet are being financially rescued from insolvency by the government who is (according to the basic tenets of capitalist ideology!) supposed to represent the average home "owners" and their "private" property?

P.S. When you say the lunatics on the far right and far left of the American politics, who do you mean on far left?! Are the likes of Ralph Nader and Michael moore (who BTW are barely considered leftists outside America!) who you have in mind, or are there actual people in the power circles?


default

گذار به جامعه سوسیالیستی

Hooshang Tarreh-Gol


قدرت های غربی
بدنبال نقشه های خود هستند. نه تنها تجربه انقلاب 57 ایران و نقش آمریکا و
دیگر قدرت
های
غربی در به شکست کشاندن این انقلاب توده
ای،
بلکه تحولات انقلابی اخیر در کشورهای شمال آفریقا و خاورمیانه و نقش این
قدرتها در فرو نشاندن شعله های انقلاب همین را به ما نشان می دهد......
کارگران خواهان نوعی از سرنگونی جمهوری اسلامی هستند
که ماشین دولتی رژیم سرمایه داری جمهوری اسلامی را در هم شکند و ملزومات و
پیش شرط های پیشروی بسوی انقلاب کارگری و گذار به سوسیالیسم را فراهم
آورد. 
منافع طبقه کارگر ایجاب می کند که با سرنگونی جمهوری اسلامی انقلاب
بدون وقفه تا تصرف کامل قدرت سیاسی توسط طبقه کارگر و دگرگونی مناسبات
سرمایه داری و گذار به جامعه سوسیالیستی ادامه یابد
.

//iranian.com/main/news/2011/09/30-5


religionoutofgovernment

Reminds me of a friend

by religionoutofgovernment on

I had a recent conversation with a dear friend of mine. He is a devout muslim and had been a strong supporter of the IR regime, until recently when he decided the regime was not following "real Islam". He did some soul searching and read the Quran again and consulted with some Islamic scholars, and decided he had found the truth. He told me how I did not understand the Quran. These words of God, indeed had the blueprint for a perfect society where everyone is going to be equal, happy and pious. He dismissed all the failures of islamic societies including IRI, the Taliban and so forth. " They had the wrong interpretation of the Quran" he said. New Islamic scholars all over the worls, some from South America, have now come up with the "True" meaning of the Quran and its blueprint for society. Acording to him, I had not read the Quran or if I did I did not grasp the true meaning, or I did not know Arabic! He said I was being too romantic thinking that democracy can  exist without Islam and the economy can succeed without Islamic values. He was being condescending but I did not mind. He was entertaining. He insisted that eventhough this new interpretation was "theoretical" and not "tested yet", despite previous failures of the older versions, the people, our country and the world should give it try. If they didn't they just were ignorant and "did not understand". I prayed for his god to save him!


payam s

The comments are actually a negation of the authors claim.

by payam s on

It seems that the majority of the folks leaving comments are sympathetic to, or are straight out communists. 

I love how "critics" of communism only focus on Marx's 30 something pages in the Communist Manifesto and his definition of a working class which is completely outdated and unrelated to contemporary struggles, as opposed to his 4 thousand pages and volumes of Capital and the Grudrisse, etc. in which he offers a critique of capitalist social relations and capitalist mode of production. They never ask what is wrong with capitalism and what are the inherent cotradictions of capitalism and the reason behind diverse and massive struggles against sub-human conditions generated and exacerbated within capitalism. Instead they constantly harp on a communism that is reduced to the soviet union.

The author romanticizes the notion of "free private ownership" as if it is a privilege enjoyed by most. As if the endless process of accumulation of capital has no adverse effects on the majority of the people. This is because he has never read Capital volume 1, or if he has, he has absolutely no grasp on the theoretical implication of Marx's critique; especially in the section on primitive accumulation. And I love how these so-called critics, make an artificial separation between the political, the economic and the social spheres of life. As if democracy in the political sphere is exclusive of the economic. How can you claim to have a political democracy in a society where the source of power (wealth and capital) are monopolized by the 1%? This is pure rubbish. Again go back to marx's methodological writing in the Grundrisse where he critiques the political economists (smith, ricardo, etc.) on their presupposed yet abstract notions on society and free market.

The problem with many iranian socialists/communists is that they are still deeply influenced by orthodox Marxist/Leninist theories of the 19th and early 20th centuries. There are many ground-breaking contributions by many marxist and communist intellectuals such as many feminist, african diasporic writers, Latin American intellectuals, etc. that shed light on the contemporary conditions under capitalism; and they offer alternative theoretical frameworks that not only critique modern capitalism but ones that offer an alternative to the entire project of European modernity.

So much to the dismay of the author, the subject of communism is not as simple as he/she would like.  

Oh yea, you can add me to the "small" list of communists you know. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Ideology

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

goes against reason and sanity and do not work. Imagine regulation as "resistors" in an oscillator circuit. Too much gives you no response; too little gives wild fluctuations. 

No engineer says "I am opposed to using resistors". They will be laughed out of a job. But in economics you get idiots who say just that. What do they get: a Noble prize as did Milton Friedman.


religionoutofgovernment

VPK

by religionoutofgovernment on

I have always considered myself a centrist, so I agree with you. When it comes to the US politics, I stay away from the lunatics to the far left and the far right.  Interestingly, these people in the far ends of the political spectrum have one thing in common, They both claim to have an ideology, a blueprint for the society that should be shoved down our throat. One wants socialism and the other wants religion! I will stick to popular vote which will keep both groups in check.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Re:Economic Turmoil

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

The solution is really obvious and worked for almost 60 years. A regulated market. With private ownership supervised by government regulation. Neither too far this way or that way. I figured it would be obvious by now.


Oon Yaroo

For the same reason triangular-shaped wheels being unpopular

by Oon Yaroo on

triangular-shaped wheels being unpopular in the transportation industry past, present, and future!


religionoutofgovernment

Economic Turmoil

by religionoutofgovernment on

It is very common now to hear that our current economic turmoil is proof that capitalism does not work and we need to go back to a socialist system. With all due respect, and without intending to be facetious, this meets the true definition of demagoguery. It is clearly appealing to popular support for one's political/economic agenda, using emotions originated from this turmoil, without explaining or understanding the turmoil. 

I certainly do not claim to understand all the factors involved in the current economic turmoil. I don't think anyone understands. So if no one really understands how can a few communists, enjoying the economic and political freedoms of capitalist countries claim that the answer would be the untested n+1 version of communism and central planning. When the n previous versions failed in n different countries within a span of 70 years? Of course, in their view, the world economy now should become another testing ground for this n+1 version. 

This economic turmoil may appear to be particularly severe, but in the more than 10,000 year history of free markets and capitalism, it is one of many. Indeed, what has enabled capitalism and free markets to persevere and survive for that long (as opposed to communism collapsing in just 70 years) has been the ability to change and reform itself and come out of stresses similar and even more severe than the one we have today. In the recent history, the South sea bubble, the post railroad crisis, the Mississippi bubble, the depression of the 30's and the 15 year bear market of the 70's along with the oil shock have all been huge stresses on free market economies. However, the free markets have always recovered BECAUSE THEY ARE FLUID AND NOT CENTRALLY PLANNED. Central planning in the communist countries resulted in an immediate decrease in standards of living, increased inefficiency and most importantly WAS INFLEXIBLE and on the first sign of an economic crisis, the whole system fell apart. 

There are many factors involved in the current economic crisis, including deflation of the 30 year credit expansion, the effect of the baby boomers retiring and the economic rise of China and the subsequent depletion of manufacturing in the western countries and their transfer to China. This Chinese shift necessitates a transfer of wealth and the standards of living etc etc. However, none of these factors would have been avoided or helped by central planning and government ownership of industry. In fact, isn't it ironic that the overall rise of China and their standard of living begun when they shunned a centrally planned communist economy in favor of capitalism??

 

Regards 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

No radical ideologies

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I think what people want is a less ideology more pragmatic. Iranian mentality is far more accepting of government role than American.  But people do not want 100% government ownership of things.

And it has nothing to do with religion. It is totally a matter of economics . The two have nothing to do with the other. 

These are things I bet people will go for in a minute

  • Government pension for old people.
  • Government paid schools including university.
  • Socialized health care.
  • State run utilities.
  • At least some state run television and radio.
  • State funding of election campaigns
  • State owned oil and other resources.
  • State managed roads.
  • State run major  airlines and trains.

These are things they want private:

  • Small to medium business ownership.
  • Private ome ownership within reason.   
  • Private rental home ownership.
  • Private small transport i.e. taxi
  • Private land and farms.
  • Private option for medicine.
  • Private option for university.
  • Private banks and stock market.
  • Private investing.

Basically something like they got in Europe with a mix of Socialism and Private.


religionoutofgovernment

AHOSSEINI

by religionoutofgovernment on

Thank you for your post. I believe your thinking is in line with mine.

We should all fight for democracy and work within a democratic system to promote our political/economic and social ideas. When and if we have enough popular support for any of our economic/political ideas, then popular public opinion and support, in the form of free votes, will bring the changes that we desire. Like you said, it should not be the other way around.


default

If socialism is dead what is the alternative?

by ahosseini on

I am on Maryam Namazi’s mailing list. I have not come across anything new. On the contrary she has a very destructive and negative role. I do not know in what way she appeals to you. An Ex member of Communist Kargari group, has set up an organisation called “ Anti Shariah Ex Muslim ” group, playing into the hands of neo conservatives,  spreading hatred against the entire Muslim community including me and you. She is the champion of Islamophobia movement and is the mouth piece of right wing republicans in the USA and conservatives in Europe. She enjoys the budget allocated by these sponsors going around the world humiliating the entire community. I personally follow Chomsky socialist ideas and I think the ideas are quite sensible and achievable. Some people think these ideas are idealistic and futuristic but I think with today’s technology his ideas are quite achievable and practical.Communists failed because they emphasised too much on the role of individual intellectuals such as Lenin, Trotsky, .... who did well in mobilising the working class in winning the political power but once they won the political power they themselves became the kings of the working class. That was the fundamental reason. Socialism would work if the mass of people control the leaders and not the other way round. The arguments presented by Trotskysts claiming that revolution failed because it did not spread to other countries, is nothing but nonsense. It would have failed if they conquered the whole world. Most revolutions have failed
Because they have been derailed
Never mind Ayatollahs
And the groups of mullahs
Failed by likes of Stalin
Trotsky and Lenin
Failed because all these leaders
Agitators and thinkers
All in the name of workers
Were self appointed leadersRoozbeh jan: I think we have to give up the idea and claim that we represent the working class. We represent ourselves. We have no mandates from the mass of workers. Most Iranian Marxist groups are run by individuals behaving like godfathers. They don’t even represent their own members never mind working class. We need to move in the direction of setting up an organisation that can be run by members and for the members. Socialisation of economy can only be achieved through the socialisation of politics. Even individual like Marx and Lenin get corrupted if they have too much power. Don’t forget, we used to adore the likes of Negahdar and Rajavi for all the brave things they did during Shah’s time. Power corrupts and these are two very clear examples. The likes of Ali Hosseini and Roozbeh are responsible for their failure. I try very hard to express my ideas in the form of political rhyme so it sticks in people’s mind. I would appreciate it if you could take them very seriously and respond to them. I emailed a copy to Chomsky.  He responded by saying “I read it, enjoyed it and appreciated it”. I would like to know what you think.I conclude by saying:The solution is one word
And don't think this is absurd
I am sure you would agree
Democracy is the key
The key had always been lost
And we had to pay the cost Please kindly read my blog presented in rhymes respond to arguments presented. We need organisations run by the people and for the people. I don’t need heroes.  


religionoutofgovernment

Arj

by religionoutofgovernment on

I completely agree with you. And that will be the role of the left going forward. My argument is that the days of promising the perfect communist Utopia and complete "equality" and no private property ownership are over.