The Lotus

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To Dear Tim

mg

You have begun your comment with the words  " Truth" and  "desperation" and in the end  lost the truth desperately. I have no reason not to believe that you are a very articulate person, but it is not solely enough to reveal the TRUTH which always is hidden in a blind corner and out of an easy approach.

I am not a fanatic person at all, and thus not in favour or against any person challenging the disastrous problems of our somewhat cocky world that have already lost its marbles.

So, if you are really looking for the TRUTH for some probably human reasons, let me tell you that  the fatal violence in  the middle east would be  solved within just two hours in London and Washington if there was such a will to end the misery of millions of innocent people.

Please do not get me wrong, I am not against neither West and American and nor in favour of any kind of bombing and violence whatsoever. This is the way this world is. Truth is badly distorted my dear.

Best wishes.

mg

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tim

now you sound racist

Truth how much desperation

Truth how much desperation does it take to come write something like this piece of babble?

When I speak of terrorist's now,know that I speak of you as a good doppelganger.

I just have to ask,If America doesn't surrender and make peace with Islam are you going to be like your brothers now and go blow up some innocent people in revenge for the terrorist America?

Then you can call that a downfall on America's job fighting terrorist's,by becoming one..And you can Blame America for that too.

Why do you see this as a war against Islam? Islamic country's are fighting Islamic terrorist's also..

You and Niloufar nearly convince me we need to stay there just to continue the slaughter of your kind.Even tho you are no real threat to America anymore,you're a real nuisance to peace.You can't live in it.

I also know your kind will never be completely wiped out.You are useless tho without bomb's.

So,I think we should let you alone and just keep training the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to make sure you don't come near any bombs in their country's.I do think that is the last of America's job.

In the meantime of this transition,you can revel each time the security is broken of Afghanistan and Iraq and call it a victory over America because terrorism happened..Then you can blame that too on America with your rationale.

I don't have any reason to believe the people of Iraq and Afghanistan agree with you.As absolutely horrible as it is, I don't take these recent bombing's as a set back in their future or our job there.It's a real deadly learning lesson for strict security.

Niloufar-In the middle east violence was never America's first choice.

And America has never declared war without warning and alternative's.

tim

i blame all those who use violence as the first choice in resolving conflict. this includes the US.

and the world's number one terrorist is....? america!

it's false flag terrorism al-qaida is an amerikkkan c.i.a backed invention to destroy islam. as amerikkka is the worlds number one terrorists and always will be, your rapists nation was found on terrorism built by slaves and kept in business with terrorism which civilized people call foreign policy. sponsoring the i.r.a openly with pride even after they blew up a shopping mall in the u.k killing a little boy. not to mention backing zionist israel which itself was brought about by terrorism backed by the u.s gov and end timers. not to mention leaving your own people to die in a hurricane zone because most of them were black and poor, with even white people left behind as they had no money either, so they didn't count as people as well. amerikkka truth to you, not death! wake up to your really enemy that is within. the end timers built your country to destroy it! save yourselves stop them now! make peace with islam and the world before it is too late!

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Tim

5 UN staff were murdered in the heart of Kabul just yesterday. 2 US soldiers killed on the same day in the south. over 100 Iraqis died in a bomb blast just yesterday. mission accomplished? again?

Niloufar,kind lady.. I

Niloufar,kind lady..

I have to conclude that you must think America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for no reason.(Acting like God).................

There are reasons and in order to mentally block them means you have a resentment so deep you overlook the reality.That resentment may be personal or it may be patriotic,I don't know,it doesnt matter to me,but for youre own sake it should.

In your point that people would fight an invasion of their country,I understand that in a normal case scenario of a normal country your point is correct.That does not apply in either case here.Neither country was ordinary compared to other nation's,including Iran.They were both under sadistic rule.How can you overlook that?Iraq and Afghanistan were not 'normal' country's.

And it's misleading to try to disassociate Afghanistan's relation to the terrorist's of 9-11 to try to further your blame upon America.The terrorist's were from Saudi Arabia but you know as a fact they were based in Afghanistan.How can you overlook that obvious fact? I think it's resentment.

This is how the invasion's actually happened,fairly.

9-11 happened.Afghanistan was being ran by the Taliban (Sharia) and actually defended the terrorist's that did 9-11.
We asked them to hand over Osama Bin Laden or let us come get him so he could be brought to justice for the crimes of 3000 dead Americans..
They refused which was a defense of Osama's Act of War.
Therefore that refusal was a act of War.
Today are still seeking Osama and now for many more crimes.I personally think he is dead or just not worth a piece of Ostaad's dropping's.

In Iraq it's legally the same war as Desert Storm.I've mentioned to you also that America was drawn into that from the United Nation's which also mandated that we not finish the job the first time and only brought us to this fate today..If you were to blame the United Nation's initial or that America's latter invasion stemmed from our involvement with the U.N. I would agree.

I don't consider either Iraq or Afghanistan a loss or impossible to bring civility to,nor in general do I believe in setting rules for what may be acheived and what may not be acheived simply because it has not been achieved before..

I don't know what your definition of 'win' in these wars is or the higher definition of 'over-wining' you seem to make as the goal,but your 'peacefulness' is very pessimistic and rely's on the negativity of continued terrorism to be proven correct..

We have already accomplished what you think is impossible in Afghanistan,that is a new government and way of life and terrorist's are reduced to rarity and running for the hills..I consider it over and won.Same story in Iraq,where if anyone is losing it is the victim's of an occasional terrorist,not America.

As you ask,In either case invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq and my reaction if I were a citizen of those invaded country's,I have to consider that as a person it depends on what a person know's.If all you know is life under Saddam Hussein or the Taliban and you have never experienced anything else,one would not know what to expect.But again I think if you know anything about life in Iraq and Afghanistan for the general public during those reign's,it makes life in Iran look like life at Disneyland...Or at least very much better...I certainly may consider that a better life is possible.

About Iraq,I doubt I would have been against any invasion at all.I would not have liked to see anyone killed except Saddam's govt I certainly understand.But to prove my point, you didn't see a mass resistance from the general public in either invasion's,only some hiding terrorist's.They were not of any majority..And I do think the 'occupation's' have been as civil to the public as possible..

But whatever your opinion of the invasion is,you can't be right to justify it with continuing terrorism and especially when that terrorism targets and kills innocent people who have nothing to do with it.

They don't have to be Militant also do they?

The terrorist's could stop fighting and it all would end.Therefore I blame them for continuing the war's.

You know the troop's do not go after innocent non-threatening people,they would rather go home.

America has been brought to this situation.We did not just involve for no reason and we are dealing with the situation at hand.

There are 2 ways to deal with these Terrorist's and Terrorism to prevent it,physically and mentally.

They both work and are both being used right now.I think the physical part is about thru and should be cut down to just security,Mentally it's time to put effort's into convincing people like yourself that Terrorism is not the way,speaking you mind and particpating in the laws that govern you are.Promoting our mission! Making a peaceful freedom for yourself and everyone around you is the way,not revengeful suicide bombing's and road bombs,car bombs..
We do not live long and this terrorism is a cancer on the lives of the worlds generation today.Many countries are involved,nearly every major one,not just America tho it leads the way,this is also overlooked quite often..

Some give their lives to prevent terrorism and some give their lives to cause it.

I choose to support the ones who give their lives to prevent it,you seem to be choosing the one's give their lives to continue on the fight.

And here's why I think this way about Iraq,a book I read in 93.
//www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/5735.php

I took interest in Iraq after Desert Storm and I was active in the Green Party which was extremely anti-sanction.I watched the sanction's death toll rise from its inception.

And If you're truly interested,there is some released information on the CIA's terrorism prevention success

The CIA has stopped 27 terrorist attempts since 9-11
//www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/wm2663a.cfm

Well Known Failed Attempt's
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Failed_terrorist_attempts

there is more just google Failed Terrorist Attempts.

Also very recently a new report from the Commission on the Prevention of Weapons of Mass Destruction Proliferation and Terrorism just came out a few days ago.Tho its very negative due to the fact we haven't stopped enough,there is some postive's in it.
//www.preventwmd.gov/10_21_2009/

And to the "Truth"seeker,I don't know where you have been the last year's but the U.S. has been decimating terrorist's so badly,unlike EPC,today I have no fear whatsoever of leaving Iraq or Afghanistan.It will take years before they are capable of being a threat to America again.They have been crushed,just slaughtered and in my opinion,It's now overkill in Afghanistan over some clown hiding in a cave..We have to chase those cowards into the mountain's who claim they are winning.Ridiculous.I don't consider it a loss at all In fact,you remind me of this clip where Monte Python's Black Knight fought King Arthur.

He would not accept defeat even after losing both arms..

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

EPC

i will take that as a yes then :)

EPC

Simply inquiring a response to a very Real, and a situation with a great potential of happenning does not automatically mean one wants such attack to actually take place.

The danger of home-grown terrorism still exist and is real and you or no one else can avoid dealing with it or  dramatically turning it around and accusing of the poser of the question of wanting something bad to come about.

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Niloufar Parsi

I'm not a big fan of declaring ceasefires with oppononts or former opponents from the internet. I've had big problems with that in the past. I prefer to just treat people the way they treat me, these days, and not feel guilty about it. The only reason I'm taking a different tack with you now is I'm starting to suspect that it was somebody else who took it upon themsleves to cause so many problems for me, on your behalf.

the west has a plan!

the west are planning to lose on purpose in afghanistan, just like the u.s did in vietnam, so al-qaida will take over islam and go for war of revenge against the west years from now just like hitler did with great britain. and the west will take them all down with a "something" that there not suppose to have. "we have more weapons in your arsenal!" - "what's happened in iraq will all make sense years from now." g.w bush.

EPC

fair enough. but you know no country has ever managed to invade and subdue the Afghans. Even Chingis Khan failed there.

look, i think we can learn to respect each other? am cool with that if you are.

NP

but now, after 8 years of war, the taleban are stronger than ever before.

Tough sell, considering the Taliban used to run Afghnaistan and now they don't.

many afghans support them because they are fighting foreign
invading armies.

Actually, the Taliban is intensely unpopular amongst Afghans. The problem is that people have no faith in Karzai's government, and in addition to that they believe his government is corrupt and ineffective. Initially, Afghans were very happy to be rid of the Taliban... I think that's obvious by the fact that the Taliban was succesfully deposed by a few thousand American troops working with the Northern Alliance, and US air power. A country like Afghanistan cannot be invaded successfully by such a small force when the people support the government, right?

Problem is we made bad decisions, and those bad decisions led us to throwing good money after bad and overstaying our welcome. I'm waiting for Obama to come up with a plan that sounds like it might undo all teh damage that's been done. So far he hasn't, so I'm leaning towards the US pulling out. This latest plan of paying nominal Taliban to switch sides (giving them jobs working for the gov't) has promise though. It worked in Iraq. al Qaeda in Iraq didn't have access to the world's largest supply of heroin though. So, I'm still skeptical.

tim

continuing on the same line of discussion, i am sure you understand why many Iraqis, Afghanis and Pakistanis will always continue to attack american soldiers in their country. they believe that they should be the ones dealing with their own country's problems.

and remember, the al qaeda members who attacked the US on 9/11 were all saudi nationals. no afghans or iraqis among them. those countries therefore never attacked the US. their leader was in afghanistan, along with other foreign al qaeda fighters, but this was no reason to attack the country militarily before the legal ways of getting him were tried.

but now, after 8 years of war, the taleban are stronger than ever before. many afghans support them because they are fighting foreign invading armies.

i belive you would do the same if it happened to the US.

NP

regardless, you too admit that such terrorism cannot actually be stopped through war.

You are parsing words. It can be deterred through war, and in my opinion it has been. It could probably be stopped by TOTAL WAR, but I'm not willing to support total war and I don't think many other Americans are either. At least, not until we lose a city to a nuclear weapon.

PS

In my opinion, the most likely cause of resumption of terrorism in the US will be if we lose our deterrent. Which is fear. If terror states/groups are no longer afraid of US reaction, they will resume the terror attacks in the US... probably on a level we've never seen before.

EPC

you WOULD get that vibe. that is what you are like.

regardless, you too admit that such terrorism cannot actually be stopped through war.

NP

you are sure it has been stopped for good? don't forget, those types of attacks don't happen regularly.

I never said it was stopped "for good". Are you sure you want us to do what would be required to stop it for good? Job #1 would be to eliminate the groups and states (like IRI) that have historically sponsored those acts of terrorism against the US. I had thought you were saying you didn't want the US to do that?

Personally, I'm satisfied with deterring terrorism rather than trying to eradicate it. Eradication would involve killing people on the scale of Stalin or Mao Zedong. I'm not prepared to support that. There has to be a better way.

also, remember the anthrax attack? inside job. perpetrators never
found. the anthrax was so fine and rare, source was probably the US
military.

Seems pretty clear that it was somebody with a grudge list who was taking advantage of the panic after 9/11 to settle some personal scores, to me. The "average joes" who were infected were generally people who inadvertantly came into contact with the infected material, and not the intended targets. Terrorism is totally different. The whole idea with terrorism is to deliberately attack innocent people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Because, that causes more fear and panic.

what about oklahoma types of attacks? home grown US terrorism targeting US citizens. finished for good? you totally sure?

You know, I'm really getting the vibe that you WANT the US to be subjected to more terror attacks. I could be wrong I suppose...

EPC

you are sure it has been stopped for good? don't forget, those types of attacks don't happen regularly.

also, remember the anthrax attack? inside job. perpetrators never found. the anthrax was so fine and rare, source was probably the US military.

what about oklahoma types of attacks? home grown US terrorism targeting US citizens. finished for good? you totally sure?

NP

on mainland USA?

No terror attacks in the US since 9/11, Niolufar Parsi. So, as of now... yes... we've managed to stop terrorism in mainland US. In my opinion, that isn't because we've apprehended all terrorists or potential terrorists in the US, or prevented all would be terrorists from enterring the US - that's impossible. Rather, it's because the groups (and states) that support terrorism are afraid of the US response now, whereas they used to taunt the US about its impotence in the face of terrorism.

You are of course free to disagree. And I'm sure you will. 

tim

so you agree that as an american you would never allow another country to act like god and invade and kill your people (as collateral damage) and on your behalf aganist your own government.  this is exatly why no one wants america to invade their country. this is exactly why america never had, has or will have the right to act like god. you don't actually believe in the kind of action that you appear to be supporting through your 'anti-terrorist' comments here.

btw, tell me, where or when has the US ever managed to stop terrorism? in afghanistan? in iraq? on mainland USA?

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truthseeker

this is exactly why i would take gandhi over mohammad any day.

and you are so totally off the mark with what is going on in the world. the US and the EU have little power to do what you imagine they want to do. they have a nasty propensity to try to dominate - that is true - but they do not have a project to destroy the world as your paranoid mind imagines.

in any case, their empire is over. look to the east. that is where the power is rising, and it is rising far faster than most westerners imagine.

you are guilty of buying into their propaganda, and that of al qaeda and other wahhabi extremists.

iran and iranians will never be like that. we have throughout civilisation been relevant to world history, and we will continue to be. but our lot is one of culture and poetry, and that is where our influence has been the best and strongest. it is not about violence.

let's be a force for peace tuthseeker. it makes life more worth living.

oh tim... :(

you are basically using the 'war is peace' argument. does it really make any sense to you? look: let's say, 'screw the IRI'. let's forget them for a minute.

let me give you a hypothetical scenario for the sake of the argument, and in doing so i will assume that you are an american: major corporations and banks stole people's money and destroyed the economy. many millions of ordinary americans had their lives' savings destroyed. ordinary americans have no power to gain justice because the banks own the government. country 'God' steps in for the good of the americans. God deploys its military might, which is vastly superior to the american one to save ordinary americans. however, the american government puts up a fight against the foreign invader. a major war ensues. millions of americans die as collateral damage. but God prevails after 10 gruelling years of fighting that took longer than expected because the american government forces went underground and resorted to terrorism due to their weakness.

God brought justice to the ordinary people of america without asking them if they wanted it, and without any legal backing. God just acted for the sake of good because she knew better.

would you have supported country God in this fight? how many americans would have supported God?

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k

the west doesn't do truth if they did they be out of business

when will you misguided people wake up, amerikkka and the west are getting rid of you one country at a time. they are not your friends. before the centuries out the middle east will be part of the e.u superstate that is to come and all of you arabians and persians will have gone the way of the red indians. if you all don't unite and stand up together now! don't take revenge for iraq, don't attack israel. seek the truth on everything that has happened in raped iraq. show the western block and it's cruasders up for what they are. if you don't you won't even need to wear yellow badges for when they come for you and families in the night. read a history book this what western civilization was founded upon and this is how they will stay in business by getting rid of you, they are going allow a terrible false flag terror attack in the u.s, u.k and mainland europe (france more than likely as they are ready to deal with the iran problem also) to happen real soon just like 9/11, blaming it on iran, a future war with saudi once the oil runs out, blair is getting it ready! levelling mecca in revenge for 9/11 and then they will act all sorry about it a hundred years later when their doing it to someone ele. wake up muslims wake up now! please iran your almost out of time. hillarys gunning for you! they made 300 aka the klansmans/birth of a nation to get you. their banging the war drums almost everyday on american pro zionists end timer backed tv with "bomb iran, bomb iran!" please wake up! please!