javaneh29

Editorial reality

Look folks, freedom of speech is one thing, editorial decision is another. Every publication has a publisher and an editor-in-chief. In this site JJ is both. He has to make editorial decisions, some of which we may like and some not. This is a professional reality -- it is not a question of censorship.

As Ali P pointed out we are still inexperienced in the actual exercise of freedom and democracy.

Nazism , Fascism or freedom of speech??

جالب اینجاست که یک بلاگ نویس اخیرا در این سایت دیدم که هر دروغی روی هم سوار کرده
این چنین افراد تمامی تلویزیون هاو روزنامه ها را در ایران تحت کنترل خود دارند .تازه همه اینها کم بوده .حالا امدن سراغ رخنه کردن در این سایت.
حتما یک پولی هم از درامد نفت به جیب این بلاگ نویس ها میرود!!

مثلا اگر من از یک رسانه گروهی استفاده کنم و شعار ضد یهودی بدهم ایا افکار فاسد و مخرب نازیها را ترویج میدم یا ازادی بیان؟؟؟

شخصا اگر یک بچه داشتم اصلا دوست نداشتم که او پای حرف فردی بشینه که میگه Holocaust وجود نداشته.چون این ترویج فساد اخلاق هست نه ازادی بیان!
شعارهای ضد اقلیت های دینی از این قبیل هستند.

با سپاس

Re Mr. Baha and other public figures

Suppose I want to use a picture of Tolstoy or Marie Antoinette or Shakyamuni Buddha as my avatar -- to anybody what...? (Ya'ni: be kasi che...?)

Baha is a public figure. If you want your moqqadasat protected convert to Islam and move to IR.

We have to act on it......

JJ said :

"There are billions of pages on the internet. The whole planet is awash with all sorts of speech..."

It's like saying that: There are lots of injustice in this world. The whole world is a place of injustice so why obsess with freeing only one child from execution in Iran ?

The answer is : Because, when we face one(injustice), right in front of our nose, we have to act upon it. In a war front, if you can not save all the warrior, you will at least save the one who is attacked right near you.

Don't you ?

I am in!

   ...and I'll be out, if we start putting up fences around the "sacred" and make them untouchable.

  Every person/issue/notion/ideology/God/religion/group that was ever dear to me and my heart, has been under attack, questioned and trashed on these pages.

( Come to think of it, I don't know anyone, whose favorite person/issue/notion/ideology/God/religion/group has not been dealt this way)

  But I keep coming back .

I won't have it any other way.

   If I learn to come face-to-face with a speech I hate, and react in a civilized manner ( by either ignoring it, or responding to it non-violently) what are the chances of me, joining a lynching mob that calls for the 'revolutionary execution' of this person or that person, who 'offended' the 'masses'? 

 We are all in the same boat people. Admittedly, some of these blogs- and comments!- brighten your day, and some make you want to vomit.

  Most of us have developed a plan, and learned to deal with them.

  These are growing pains my friends.

21st Century...here we come...yes, we can...Iranians...democracy...baby steps...

The time has come.

Freedom of speech in

Freedom of speech in iranian.com is bullshit! Just like anything else "some" Iranians - JJ - think they need to reinvent the wheel.

We live in land of freedom of speech, we talk about freedom left and right yet our website is not free. It isn't. If it was it would be like other free websites in America.

How many websites do you know (other than KKK's own) that would allow KKK propaganda? I wish KKK would start a blog and join other hate groups and find a home in iranian.com so we can all enjoy freedom of speech at the expense of being taken advantage of.

Its a tricky issue isnt it?

Like Souri I can see both sides of this debate as it relates to this this particular blogger. I agree that one way of managing any offence blog is to ignore it and hopefully he/she will become bored with the lack of response and go away. However, is freedom of speech the same as discrimination? Whilst any blogger has the right to his/her right to express themself as they see fit , do we as a community agree to ignore blatant discrimination.

In the real world I  am actively adverse to discrimination... should I be less so because this is the cyber world? Its something I had to think about this morning before I created this blog. If we choose to ignore discrimination, how do ppl become less ignorant  and hopefully more enabled to make  informed choices? If someone created a blog discriminating against all iranians, generalising and posting distasteful pictures, would we ignore those too?

Princess jaan I personally dont think this about 'giving people credit for deciding what is truth and what is not .. its a far bigger issue than that.

And I also think JJ is right when he says that a picture is an inclusive right of freedom of speech and expression and that there is a whole world of hate out there in the cyber world and in the real world. But JJ I have to disagree with you on something.....I dont think its good enough to ignore blatant discrimination even though we all have the right to freedom of speech when it is offensive to others. You have editorial rights do you not? What is your policy on your use of those? is there some half way measure you can take to allow any blogger their right to freedom of speech but at the same time manage discriminatary comments or pictures so as not to cause offence?  

Javaneh

All I want to know is:

What's Freedom of Anarchism? To be free from Anarchy? Or free to have anarchy like freedom of speech? :)

as for ir.com: Live and let live. This site won't change. That's why it's so warm and cuddly, you know you'll get insulted when you come and you can even start betting on it. Better than hokm if you ask me. If you really want a cause, join some NGO to send food to Gaza.

Javaneh 29

You raise some good points Javaneh.  There can be time place an manner restrictions on the content of speech and any newspaper, internet or otherwise, has editorial discretion.  In sites I have moderated I do not allow hate speech or speech that attacks the person rather than the topic.  While every person has the right to free speech, an editor has the right to tell him to exercise it elsewhere.  If that weren't true, then the NY Times would have to publish every article by every writer who came along. 

I didn't realize how extensive Iranian.com's reading audience is until I recently looked at a Wikipedia article that says that there are 6 million page views per month.  That is huge (though no doubt many are repeat offenders:)), so apparently Iranian.com is read by many people and probably influences a good number of them.  Blogs are unique in that they aren't really news articles.  They are more like opinion letters.  Most publications allow wide discretion in the publication of such matters especially where the costs are low as in internet in contrast to paper publications.  The exception I usually see is obscenity and incitement to hate or violence.   

better than the rest attitude... intolerance galore!

It seems like the baha-ees think of themselves better than the rest. Baba, it happens all the time. All religions are subjected to materials they don't like to see, or where it exposes their darker side or history. Now, why yours should be any different? You probably think yours is holier or whatever! Just chill.

A good example is when I tried to put to discussion in many of their blogs the sexist attitude of the baha-ees, when they don't let women get elected to the house of justice. First, there were attacks on me, then rationalization ( that the time is not right and so forth). It just seems to me like intolerance of any criticism. Now watch Tahirih khanum take a swing at me!

Dear JJ

You said, "Anyone has the right to trash or make fun of any prophet, religion, group, government, politician... ". I think you should role out prophets because a prophet is different from GW Bush or khamanaiee. In other worlds your democracy has no limit. BUT THEN the question which comes to mind is if your democracy has no limit, even prophets are not spared, THEN WHY you delet replies. Shouldn't some have the right to trash ignorant site users? In other words you are acting against your own laws!!!

Sir, according to your own believe you should avoid deleting replies because then you are acting correctly.

Once you done this you should make it very very clearly that this is a free speech site.

You are confusing a lot of site users.

Freedom of speech on Iranian.com?

I do not think so. It is a silly notion to begin with. Iranian.com is a private domain. Why should there be freedom of speech on Iranian.com? Instead there should be freedom of speech on the internet. Even if JJ pretended to have or wanted to implement freedom of speech on his website he could not do so. And most certainly there is bias and censorship on Iranian.com reflecting the prejudices of JJ.

Yes, JJ tries, and has done decently relative to others, to keep Iranian.com relatively open. However, he cannot escape his strong prejudices that is clearly on display through and through on Iranian.com.

It is silly for JJ to pretend that he has an even handed free website and it is silly to think that principles of freedom of speech can be implemented on a singular site.

If you remove anything,

If you remove anything, remove them all -- like all censporship we have known so far -- if not you cannot give prefernce to one section only.

Image is speech

Tahirih, how do you figure that an avatar, a photo, a painting, a cartoon, a statue is not speech? Of course they are speech -- the visual expression of speech. Just like the cartoon making fun of Prophet Mohammad in Denmark. Just like cartoons making fun of Jesus. These are all speech and protected by freedom of speech, whether you or Muslims or Christians or Jews like it or not.

Mr Javid , I asked to remove avatar, not the speech!!!!!

Mr Javid you talk about freedom of speech, over and over, why don't you read what I said again . souri saw it."""" I am asking to remove the avatar, not the speech""""". I am saying an offensive avatar is not freedom of speech!!You can argue that it is free expession, but to me it is being used as a medium for spreading hate.
As bahais we are very tolerant, no blood spiled or throat cut?But kindness should not be confused with weakness.
With most regrets,
Tahirih

Focus

Tahirih, free speech does not exclude hate speech.

There are tens of thousands of pages on iranian.com. There are billions of pages on the internet. The whole planet is awash with all sorts of speech. If you want to obsess over one hater, one idiot, go ahead.

Let's not forget that the Islamic Republic also limits free speech and freedoms by banning, censoring, excluding, jailing, Bahais solely for their belief.

As victims of censorship and discrimination, I would expect Bahais to be more tolerant towards any kind of speech they may dislike in one way or another.

Burning the flag of a country !

Dear Tahirih,

I am all with you. You said exactly what I think about that.

 "If this character, posts any kind of lies , I am fine with it, because
I have the right to defend us, but a profaine picture of our best
beloved??...."

To me, this is like burning the flag of a country as a sign of protesting their politics. It is disgusting.

Freedom of speech : YES

Freedom of Anarchism: NON !!!!!

Thank you Javaneh aziz .

What you have wrote is exactly what I had in mind. With all due respect but Mr Javid has confused anarchy with freedom of speech.

 If this character, posts any kind of lies , I am fine with it, because I have the right to defend us, but a profaine picture of our best beloved?? as an avatar?? is a criminal activity , a crime against freedom . Mr Javid , if someone harms a person dear to you , then posting pictures of it and describing  the act , would you feel the same?

So Mr Javid, the last 30 yrs, IRI were practising their free will when they were  killing ,raping and torturing us?

 Last night , I did hold my dear friend , who just lost her mother, she only saw her 2 times in the last 27 yrs!! and it was 2 weeks outside Iran, was that an act of exerting their free will?

 You have to realize there is a difference between a liberal journalist, and someone who could be used to be a medium of hate , in the name of free speech.

I am aware this is your site, and you can keep it!! but just know by doing so what kind of people stay and what kind leave, which in long run can effect the quality and reputation of your site.

I am going to end with this prayer from Bahaullah himself, may this effect  your heart.

 "

Absolutely,

I am with JJ on this one. I wish some people here would give us readers a bit more credit. More often than not, the audience here can discern truths from lies, and for the ones who don't, well tough, after all, you cann't tell people what to think or what to believe.

Agree and not agree

I agree that we should not participate in those blog, so to isolate that blogger, but I don't agree with ignoring the fact that they exist and not reacting to them.

They are like the mushroom you must erase at the first sing of growth, if not, later it would be harder to deal with them. People who abuse of the other people's freedom should not be free to act. Why did you censure and banne Haijiagha then ?

The values you are holding, are old fashion now. Today(20xx) journalism, is a dynamic power which take action pro and con, comparing to the  yesterday's(1970's) passive liberalism of the modern journalism.

Live with it

Anyone has the right to trash or make fun of any prophet, religion, group, government, politician...

Whoever the Covenant character is, what's absolutely certain is that he or she is a loser with nothing better to do in life. Obviously he/she badly needs attention. So why should we satisfy his need by responding or reacting?

I don't bother with idiots, no matter how offensive they may be. I prefer to ignore and move on to better and more interesting things. I would not waste one second of my time.

I suggest all those who are offended by any blog, speech or image, to walk away. Instead of getting upset over non-sense and calling for removal of this or that -- stuff that is not going to have any real or lasting impact on anyone -- learn to be tolerant; be the better person and walk away.

A hundred people looking at Covenant's blog is not even a drop in the ocean. It's completely insignificant. Getting all stressed out and shouting for censorship will a) bring more publicity to the material you find offensive and b) will give the impression that you support free speech unless it offends you.