Jahanshah Javid

Alborz and JJ

"Equality of Men and Women is one of the tenants of the Baha'i Faith. It was espoused at a time when it did not exist in any place in the world, in the mid 19th century. Baha'is place a preference on the education of girls over boys as they are going to be the mothers of future generations. So if a family were to have limited resources, girls would have priority over boys in education. Also the laws of inheritance are the same for both sexes. The right to divorce is the same also. "

The less hocus pocus hoola hoola stuff the better and I make NO exception for the bahaihoola-hoola people.

Some people, strangely enough, in my family for example, decided it would be more fun if all of us got educated without snooping into people's underwear.

And by the way the rest of the positive discrimination blah was simply ILLEGAL at the time and I am NOT in favour of any hoola hoola hocus pocus group receiving preferential treatment, simply because they have some testicle or vaginal hotline antenna to the supernatural that doesn't exist.

JJ
Why the hell should I spend my time trying to find out what their particular hocus pocus is about?
Seriously, I have better things to do then study groups of schizophrenics with voices in their heads. I'm not a psychiatrist!
Gimme a break, JJ!

Women and the Universal House of Justice..چرا زنان عضو بیت العدل

Equality of ....

Equality of ....

The Universal House of Justice - Membership on the Universal House of Justice, the Supreme Governing Body of the Bahá'í Faith
, is made up exclusively of nine male members.
All other positions in the Bahá'í administration are open to both male and female Bahá'ís.

"women are the equals of men in all rights save only that of membership on the Universal House of Justice, for, as hath been stated in the text of the Book (Kitáb-i-Aqdas), both the Head and the members of the House of Justice are men."

(`Abdu'l-Bahá quoted in The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership)

***

-Inheritance - Regarding the laws of intestacy, when a Bahá'í dies without a will,
fathers receive slightly more than mothers,

brothers slightly more than sisters,

and if the deceased owned a personal residence,
such residence passes to the eldest son.

Such laws of inheritance apply only in the case that a Bahá'í dies without leaving a will. Bahá'ís are obliged to write a will themselves, and are encouraged to decide on inheritance as they see fit.[17]

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith_and_gender_equality

11101932

Well, excuuuuuusse meeee.

Even I can have an off day and not pick up on things like that.

:)

How did I get interested ?

Many years ago back in Iran, I was hearing so many comments about Bahais...those hateful and nonsence comments got me interested to know about these people and why they're oppressed.

Thanks to them for being great mobalegh :))

I'm the First Baha'i in my family, but I won't be the Last one for sure.

Kindest Regards,Mona ;)

Iranian.com is an open forum

Iranian.com is an open forum for ALL Iranians to dialogue. Including Jewish Iranians, Christian Iranians, Muslim Iranians and satan worshiping Iranians. Postings shouldn't stop just to pander to a certain "type" of Iranian. JJ don't listen to these censors. I now know more about Bahais then I did in the past and my interest in this faith has certainly peaked. There's a Bahai community center in my town. I think I may just pop over, if anything just to say hello.

Dear Choob..

On the Top Jobs issue, enough has been said and proven...you have too much faith in character assassination.

see  

On Bahai Rights for women; Dear Choob !, if Bahai ideology discriminated against women,  why would Baha'u'llah put women first for education. The very first schools for Girls in Iran in  early 1900's were established by Bahais and attended by the general population.

Have you heard of Tahirih The famous poetess?

Women in the Baha'i Faith...Choob, flex a little...

...will you? 

Equality of Men and Women is one of the tenants of the Baha'i Faith.  It was espoused at a time when it did not exist in any place in the world, in the mid 19th century.  Baha'is place a preference on the education of girls over boys as they are going to be the mothers of future generations.  So if a family were to have limited resources, girls would have priority over boys in education. Also the laws of inheritance are the same for both sexes.  The right to divorce is the same also. 

As for the representation of the Baha'is in Iran, as  educators, industrialists, business men, civil servants and yes eventually many "top jobs" in the country, it was born out of their other principles, namely importance of education and trustworthiness.  Would you have rather had highly qualified people become bazaris or make a lasting impact on the advancement of Iran.   Clearly the powers that be chose to put them to work. And work they did with dedication while their basic rights were still not recognized. For example their kids in school were still harrassed  and they had no recourse.  Their marriages where not recognized officially.  Their Baha'i center was destroyed while an army general and cleric watched in broad day light. The photo at the bottom of this page captures the scene vividtly.

 //question.bahai.org/005.php

Finally, and again for the umpteenth time no Baha'i was a politician.  No politician could be a Baha'i, as they would be found in breach of Baha'i principles if they entered politics.  The consequence of this was expulsion from the community.

If a Baha'i was an officer, and there were many, in the army does that make a politician?

If a Baha'i is an architect of a monument (Azadi) does that make a politician?

If a Baha'i introduces the first TV station into Iran (Kanal-e 3), does that make a politician?

If a Baha'i establishes the first girl's school in Iran (Madreseh Tarbiyat), does that make a politician? Yes girl's school !

If a Baha'i establishes the first modern hospital in Iran (Bimarestaneh Mehr), does that make a politician?

If a Baha'i owns the largest domestic air conditioner manufacturer (Arj), does that make a politician?

If a Baha'i is chosen to be the Shah's personal physician (Dr. Ayadi), does that make a politician?

If a Baha'i is a University Professor, as many were, does that make a politician?

and for the grand finale,

If a prime minister (Hoveyda) is born into a family that has a Baha'i in it and that prime minister never claims to be a Baha'i or associates with Baha'is and does nothing to stop abuses against them while in office, does that make the Baha'is involved in politics?

C'mon...Choob.  Don't be so stiff.  As they say, to grow and survive you need to flex a little. You can do this by reading a little.  You'll grow more dogmatic if you don't take this advice.

Alborz

On Dr. Fereydoon Adammiat's integrity as a Historian?

Further on the statement by Jaleo who said earlier:"I'd take Dr. Fereydoon Adammiat's comment over the uneducated fanatical comments on this site.  

here is some food for thought by Tourag Amini, who examines Adammiat's integrity as an historian, his sources, his motives and reasons for his anti Bahai Stance. I have included a segment:

فریدون آدمیت و بهاییان

تورج امینی

4 آذر 1385

فریدون آدمیت شناخته شده ترین مورخان ایرانی دهه های اخیر است که در باره تحولات اندیشه ایرانیان در تاریخ معاصر و خصوصا در باب سیر تغییرات سیاسی و مذهبی در جامعه ایران تا زمان انقلاب مشروطیت ، کتاب هایی چند تحریر کرده است. از زمانی که رساله دکترای او در باره امیرکبیر منتشر گشت ، به توالی ، آثارش از مراجع بی چون و چرای تاریخ واقع شد و از آن جا که تألیفات آدمیت در تحلیل تاریخ ایران صورتی علمی داشت و برای نخستین بار نیز بود که ارائه می شد ، مقبولیت همگانی را شامل حال خود کرد.

در واقع در روستای ایران که اکثر مردمان و مورخانش نابینا بودند و هیچ کس از بازی فوتبال تاریخ چیزی نمی دانست ، آدمیت ناگهان در مقام مارادونایی ظاهر شد که به هر طرف شوت کرد ، همه کس آن را گل پنداشت و این در حالی بود که به اعتقاد من ، دروازه فوتبال تاریخ روشنفکری در ایران ، اصلا جایی نبود که آدمیت به همگان گفته بود که به آن سمت شوت کنند! اینک که دست و بال ما بازتر شده ، چشم هایمان بینایی خود را به دست آورده ، سوادمان بیشتر گشته ، به مراجع اصلی رجوع می کنیم ، توپ روی پای ما هم سوار می شود و زمین بازی و اجزایش را نیز به درستی می شناسیم ، می بینیم که شوت های آدمیت اکثرا و عمدا در اوت بوده است.

می خواهم حرف آخر را همین اول بزنم و بگویم: فریدون آدمیت از کوری و بی توجهی اهل تاریخ و مردمی که تعلقات تاریخی داشتند ، سوء استفاده نمود و به خوبی و کاملا آگاهانه راه تاریخ نویسی مشروطه را زد و گاهی چنان پرت و پلاهایی به خورد ایرانیان داد که تجزیه و تحلیلش کار یکی دو صفحه و یکی دو کتاب نیست. نباید فراموش کنیم کسی که آگاهانه قدم در راه کج می نهد و هوشمندانه تمام قوای خود را برای کج نمایی ، پنهان کاری ، دروغ پردازی و .... به کار می گیرد ، به هیچ وجه نمی تواند آدم صادقی باشد و کسی که صادق نیست ، دیگر مردمان نباید به سخنان او تکیه و توجه کنند.

اما  آدمیت مورد توجه بسیاری بوده و هنوز هست. حتی به این حد کتاب هایش مرجع و مأخذ اهل نظر است که کسی همچون مرحوم محمد مددپور که در سمینار مشروطه سال 1378 می گفت: ما باید صبر کنیم تا امام زمان بیاید و بگوید که مشروطه اتفاق خوبی بوده یا نه! ، وقتی بر خلاف نظر آدمیت کتاب هایی در باب تخطئه سیر اندیشه! نوشت(1) ، مهم ترین مراجعش کتاب های خود آدمیت بود و از این جالب تر این که مثلا از نظرات فریدون آدمیت استفاده کرد و نقشی کاملا بر عکس آن چه او نشان داده بود ، از آقاخان کرمانی به تصویر کشید. تأسف بارتر آن که آن مرحوم نمی دانست آن نقشی که آدمیت از آقاخان کرمانی بر کاغذ زده است ، نقشی کج و چپ اندر قیچی است.

این که هنوز کسی پیدا می شود که در جمهوری اسلامی به خود جرأت می دهد ، کتابی می نویسد و به تشریح و توضیح آثار آدمیت می پردازد و در مقدمه سعی می نماید که حق تاریخ نگاری او را ادا کند(2) ، نشانی وثیق از این موضوع دارد که آدمیت هنوز در تاریخ نگاری روشنفکری ، مقام مرجعیت و فقاهت دارد و اگر چه او در این حدود 30 سال ( در زمان حکومت فقها ) بایکوت بوده ، اما سخنش کماکان در میان مورخان جایگیر و متمکن است.

به سادگی می توان فهمید که تأثیر گرفتگان از آدمیت دو دسته اند: یکی آنان که سوابق تاریخی خانواده شان مشابه سوابق خانوادگی آدمیت است ، همچون خودش می اندیشند و هدفمند در پی مثله و رنگ کردن تاریخ و مورخان برآمده اند و دسته ای دیگر که حال و مجال رجوع به اسناد اصلی و اولیه را ندارند و از لقمه های جویده شده آدمیت تغذیه می کنند و گمان می برند که کاری کرده اند و چیزی فهمیده اند. تاریخ نویسی علمی ایران 60 سال گرفتار و تحت تأثیر این دو دسته بوده تا هزاران صفحه و کتاب در وارونه کردن حقیقت تاریخی ایران و خصوصا انقلاب مشروطیت بنویسند. دیگر بگذریم که 40 سال پیش از آن نیز تاریخ نگاری ایرانی ( در حالت غیر علمی خود ) همان منت را بر گردن دارد!

می دانم که داعیه ام داعیه بزرگی است و بسیاری از مورخان را خوش نخواهد آمد و آنان را فورا بر آن واخواهد داشت تا مرا به خودپسندی و غرور متهم کنند. اما در همین آغاز باید بگویم بزرگی داعیه من بیش از آن چه منوط به علم و دانش من باشد ، به حضیضی بستگی دارد که تاریخ نویسی ایرانی در آن افتاده است. برای آن که بتوانم موقف و موضع تاریخ نویسی ایرانی را نشان دهم ، هیچ کاری بهتر و لازم تر از آن نیست که یکی از ارکان آن را تجزیه و تحلیل کنم و نقدی بر نوشته های ستون اصلی اش بیاورم. در این میان آن چه که متفق القول مورخان ایرانی است ، مهم ترین و شاید بزرگترین رکن ، فریدون آدمیت باشد.

برای چنین کاری لازم است در ابتدا هدفمندی فریدون آدمیت را در تاریخ نگاری شرح دهم تا بتوانم پس از آن ، ذهن خواننده این نوشتار را به درستی شواهدی که خواهم آورد رهنمون و معترف سازم. در این صورت است که خواننده این نوشتار ، اگر هر یک از آثار فریدون آدمیت را دوباره مطالعه کند ، خواهد فهمید که چه پروسه اندیشیده شده ای در تلو تاریخ نگاری هایش نهفته است و خواهد دانست که دلیل به کار گیری آن روش ها و استدلالات چه چیز بوده است.

خلاصةالکلام این است که آدمیت در کار تاریخ نگاری ، در پی حذف نام بهاءالله و بهاییان از داستان روشنفکری ایرانی است. خصومت او با آیین بهایی و بهاییان من کل حیث ذاتی است. تمام تلاش آدمیت بر این نهفته است که نام بهاییان را به بدی ببرد و ریشه آیین بهایی را از بیخ بزند و از آن جا که دیگر ، روش های فحش و ناسزا در زمانی که او می نگاشت در میان فرهیختگان جایی نداشت ، او روشی به ظاهر علمی را برای این کار انتخاب کرد و آن روش ، تحلیل تاریخ معاصر بود به نحوی که بهاییان ضرر کنند.

اما جای یک سؤال اساسی و اصلی در ذهن باقی می ماند که آدمیت چرا باید چنین هدفی را برگزیده باشد؟ برای یافتن پاسخ ، اندکی فکر کردن هم کافی است ، زیرا به خوبی واضح و آشکار است که در ایران تنها دو طایفه بوده اند که خصومت ذاتی با بهاءالله و بهاییان داشته اند: گروه اسلامگرایان و جرگه ازلیان. هیچ کس نمی تواند مدعی شود که آدمیت از زمره اسلامگرایانی بوده که به خاطر داعیه وحیانی بهاءالله و یا نسخ اسلام با او بد شده است. نوشته های آدمیت نشان می دهد که او هیچ گونه سازش و رفاقتی با اسلام ، علما و مردم مسلمان ندارد. پس منطقا او باید در جرگه ازلیان باشد ( یا این که حداقل باور کنیم نسبت های خانوادگی او به گونه ای است که او را مجبور کرده تا از منظر ازلیان به تاریخ بنگرد و بنگارد ). اتفاقا تمام مواد هدفمند و روشمندی که او در نوشته هایش به کار برده ، سخن مرا تأیید می کند و گر نه چه دلیلی دارد که او چنین بی منطق و بی رحمانه بر بهاییان بتازد و ازلیان را بر آنان رجحان دهد؟:

" مطالعه مجموع کارنامه سیاسی و اجتماعی ازلیان و بهاییان این نتیجه را به دست می دهد: در میان بابیان و ازلیان برخی عناصر ناسیونالیست و ایران دوست وجود داشته اند و بعضی از آنان حتی به نهضت مشروطیت خدمت کرده اند. در میان بهاییان چنین افرادی را سراغ نداریم. برعکس دستگاه بهایی پیوستگی خاصی با سیاست های مختلف خارجی داشته و این کیفیت با گرویدن عنصر یهودی به آن گروه حدت گرفته است. مرام و مقصد آنان رواج بی وطنی است و راه و رسم آنان سرسپردگی به سیاست های اجنبی و هر کس غلامی بیگانگان را پیشه کند ، ما او را نیک نمی شماریم. رأی ما در این باره مبتنی است بر شواهد عینی و آن چه برای ما معتبر است همان شواهد عینی است و گر نه قسمت بیشتر آن چه سید باب گفته و سراسر آن چه در الواح میرزا حسین علی و عباس افندی آمده ، خرمن خرافات بشری را سنگین تر کرده است و در عالم فکر به مفت نمی ارزند ".(3)

خواننده متن فوق نباید تصور کند که آدمیت با گفتن یک طعنه به سید باب هویت لائیک خود را نشان داده و یا اعتقاد حقیقی اش را به رخ کشیده است. هیچ لائیک و سکولاری حق ندارد به اعتقاد دیگران ( و خصوصا از جنبه نوع اعتقاد آنان ) حمله کند. به اعتقاد من او همانند تمام ازلیانی که برای مخفی کردن هویت خود در تاریخ معاصر به سید باب طعنه زده و یا حتی ناسزا گفته اند ، با این کار ، تنها کمی هویت خود را پنهان کرده است. تقیه و ناسزاگویی به ادیان و مذاهب در پروسه عملیات سیاسی و اجتماعی ازلیان بوده است و من در این نوشتار به آن اشاراتی خواهم کرد. هر چه باشد آدمیت در ازلیگری بالاتر از هادی دولت آبادی نیست که فحش به سید باب و ازل داد و نه تنها کماکان جانشین ازل باقی ماند ، بلکه پسرش هم به توالی جانشین ازل شد! تنها با بررسی معنا و مدلول نوشتار بالا و دیگر نوشته ها ، می توان هویت آدمیت را به خوبی نشان داد:

1.     آدمیت مدعی است که "قسمت بیشتر" نوشته های سید باب و "سراسر" آثار بهاءالله و عبدالبها خرافات است. این بدان معنا است که اگر در نوشته های رهبران آیین بهایی هیچ حرف حساب و سخن درست نمی توان به دست آورد ، اما بخشی از نوشته های سید باب خرافات نیست و می توان به آن توجه کرد. آیا کدام بخش از آثار سید باب مورد نظر آدمیت است؟ او هیچ گاه جوابی به این سؤال نداده ، اما حداقل پاسخی که می توان بر اساس اسلام ستیزی آدمیت به این پرسش داد ، این است که سید باب با داعیه نسخ اسلام ، فهمی در جامعه ایرانی به وجود آورد و آن فهم در رفتار اجتماعی ازلیان منعکس شد و باعث شد تا آنان برای پیشرفت ایران فعالیت کنند و در انقلاب مشروطه هم طبیعتا نقش داشته باشند.

2.     این جواب حداقل و آن سخن آدمیت ، معلوم می سازند که آیین بابی که آیینی ناقص بود ، به همت ازلیان به جایی رسید که توانست خود را از قید خرافات برهاند و تا جایی پیش برود که در مهم ترین اتفاق سیاسی دوران قاجار نقش های اصلی و اساسی را بازی کند. اما بهاییان که ادامه دهنده بخش خرافات آیین باب بودند ، توسط بهاءالله و عبدالبها بر خرافات سید باب افزودند و همان قسمت کم مثبت آیین سید باب را هم نابود ساختند. به عبارت دیگر در بیان آدمیت آیین ازلی هم از بین برنده تفکر دینی آیین بابی است و هم سعی در تبدیل آن به یک حرکت سیاسی و غیر دینی داشته است و به همین دلیل فریدون آدمیت طرفدار آن واقع گردیده است!

3.     شواهد عینی مشخص می سازند که بهاییان نه تنها به بار خرافات افزوده اند ، بلکه آب به آسیاب بیگانگان نیز ریخته و با جاسوسی و غلامی برای اجنبی ، سعی کرده اند بی وطنی به ایرانیان بیاموزند.

سخن راندن از ارتباط بهاییان با بیگانگان و جاسوسی برای آنان ، چنان عمل سخیف و بی مغزی است که این کار حتی دیگر برای شستن مغز فرزندان نابالغ دبستان نیز کارایی ندارد. تاریخ دهه های اخیر به خوبی بی مایه و مغرضانه بودن این سخن را نشان داده اند و خواننده بصیر خود می تواند از همین یک نکته کوچک بفهمد که فریدون آدمیت در حال پروراندن چه نوعی از تاریخ بوده است.

ما زمانی می فهمیم که این نوشته ها حرف دل و دغدغه آدمیت است که بدانیم سخنان او به دقیقا همین شکل و روش ( و البته با انشایی لطیف تر به نفع ازلیان و بسیار تندتر علیه بهاییان ) ، در کتاب امیرکبیر و ایران نیز قبلا آمده است.(4) بنابراین ما چاره ای نداریم که به این نکته رهنمون شویم که نظر آدمیت در مقایسه ازلیان و بهاییان و نقش آنان در وقایع و رویدادهای تاریخ معاصر ، کاملا ازلی مآبانه و ضد بهایی است.

بدون شک اگر فریدون آدمیت این نوشتار را بخواند ، فورا در مقام پنهان کاری برآمده و اعلام خواهد کرد که تورج امینی کذاب ، مفتری و خیالباف است و من ( فریدون آدمیت ) همیشه شخصی لائیک بوده و حرف هایم بر اساس شواهد تاریخی بیان شده است. اما او باید بداند که برای آدم لائیک ، اعتقاد اشخاص علی السویه است و رجحان یکی بر دیگری آن هم بدون ذکر شواهد تاریخی و صرفا از روی افترا ، نشان از دلبستگی پنهان به آیین رجحان داده شده دارد. عجب آن که شواهد دیگر از نوشته های خود آدمیت نشان می دهد که او با موضوع بهاییان و آثار رهبران بهایی کاملا مغرضانه برخورد کرده است.

یک شاهد که مرا کفایت و غرض ورزی آدمیت را نیز برملا می کند ، آن چیزی است که در کتاب اندیشه های اقتصادی و سیاسی منتشر نشده در دوران قاجار ( تألیف مشترک آدمیت و هما ناطق ) به دست می آوریم. در آن جا فریدون آدمیت بدون این که بداند رساله ای به نام "مدنیّه" از عبدالبها را تشریح می کند ، به تعریف و تمجید از آن پرداخته و موادی از درون آن را در اختیار خواننده گذاشته و در پایان نیز با نقل جملاتی از آن کتاب ، اعلام کرده که نویسنده رساله حامل پیام بدیعی است.(5) بدون شک هر خواننده خوش ذوقی با دانستن این موضوع ، فورا از خود خواهد پرسید که اگر نوشته های عبدالبها سراسر خرافات است ، پس این که فریدون آدمیت ( اگر تصور کنیم حتی ندانسته ) از رساله مدنیه به نیکی یاد کرده ، معلوم می شود که او همه نوشته های عبدالبها را نخوانده و کسی که تمام نوشته های عبدالبها را نخوانده ، چگونه به خود اجازه می دهد که در باره همه آثار او اظهار نظر کند ، آن هم به صورت منفی ، چنان مطمئن و غرض آلوده؟!

این داستان حتی معلوم می کند که متأسفانه فریدون آدمیت که به عنوان بزرگترین محقق تاریخ معاصر شناخته شده ، برای تحقیق در باره آیین بهایی ( اگر تحقیقی هم کرده باشد ) ، مطلقا به بهاییان رجوع نکرده است! چه اگر او واقعا می خواست بفهمد که نسبت بهاییان با جریان های روشنفکری در ایران منفی یا مثبت بوده ، باید از بهاییان درخواست کتاب می کرد و اگر این کار را کرده بود ، به یقین نخستین کتابی که بهاییان در کف او می نهادند ، همان رساله مدنیه بود که او به تمجید از آن پرداخته است.

دشمنی آدمیت با بهاییان و خصوصا با بهاءالله بسیار ذاتی تر از آن است که آدمیت به مفاد مندرج در نوشته های آیین بهایی توجه کرده باشد. آیا آدمیت واقعا تمام نوشته های بهاءالله را خوانده و به این نتیجه رسیده که سراسر آنها خرافات بوده است؟ جواب این سؤال از دو جنبه ، کاملا منفی است. او نه آثار بهاءالله را خوانده و نه اصلا خواسته است که بخواند. شواهد داعیه من بسیار فراوان است و دیگر از تفصیل این موضوع باید گذشت که در دوره ای که ناصرالدین شاه بر ایران حکومت می کرد ، اگر تعالیم و پیشنهادات بهاءالله همچون: تساوی حقوق اجتماعی مردان و زنان ، نفی مرجعیت روحانی و ایجاد تشکیلات انتخابی درون دینی و برون دینی ، نفی حکم نجاست پیروان ادیان سایره و تأکید به معاشرت با آنان ، لزوم زبان و خط بین المللی ، تعدیل معیشت اقتصادی ، صلح عمومی و جهان بدون جنگ ، شورای حکومت بین المللی ، ارتش بین المللی ، ادغام حکومت مشروطه و جمهوری برای اداره کشورها و ..... خرافات بود ، چه سخن قابل تأملی نه فقط در ایران زمان قاجار که حتی دوره پهلوی گفته شده است؟ تنها بهانه ای که به خوشبینانه ترین شکل می توان آورد ، این است که فریدون آدمیت از مطالعه مستقیم آثار رهبران بهایی بی بهره بوده و در این صورت ، آن اظهار نظر سخیف و بی مأخذ به چه معنا می تواند باشد؟! 

:Full Text 

 //www.negah28.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=406&Itemid=24 

bahai ideology discriminates

bahai ideology discriminates against women. Why should I be accepting of them??? And besides, in the Pahlavi era, they were disporpotionately represented in top jobs. How truly unfair to everyone else.

And when you confront them that some bahai fellow was a politician, they all say, "nah, not true, barash harf dar aavardan!" Sure! deny it!

berin kashketoono besaabin baba! hamatoon!

Jaleho

Thanks for explanation. I assumed that you were referring to me, as I was the only person who said "Kasravi is not a reference" here, in this blog.

Regardless of who you were calling so, just I'm wondering :

Why should I automatically copy someone else's statement ? I don't get it ? What is the point for me to repeat someone else's statement without knowing anything about?

Do you think I have too much time for that kind of play?

I don't answer your question "why Kasravi is not a reference for me " because it is too long and would be the subject of another debate.

I'm always against the long long comment and a grand detour from the main subject.

Anyhow...Thanks and shab khosh

Passer By..

in response..

Dear Passer By, with respect: 

The school analogy is only to explain that God's education is progressive and Baha'u'llah is just another messenger/teacher in that evolution...as long as humans exist there will be guidance from God wit new messengers/teachers...Bahais don't belive that Baha'u'llah is the Best and last, but rather the latest of God,s teachers and the wisdom and efficacy of His writings are His best proof.

You at the outset have decided to read books which demean and oppose the Bahai faith; that says something about your preconceived mindset; as if without reading Bahai books, you have already condemned it and decided to satisfyyour own opinion.

I can not make you believe anything or convince you..My reason for becoming a Bahai was first and foremost because examples set by people who had become believers on their own, and not by inheritance; these people and the charcacters that I met along the way shared one thing..

there was a quite radiance and peace about them, that just being near them gave one a sense of joy...

.Bahai books are full of lovely words and thoughts..they mean nothing without action;.the proof is the effect they have on its followers .

My issue with Radiyehs whether by Wilson, kermani or any one else is their ulterior motive.

So how pure is your motive? If you want to find out about Bahai, why read Radiyehs and books by individuals with negative agendas..

I hope to  discuss  the whole Radiyeh story as welll as Kasravi, and adamiyat in due course.

best

faryar 

Souri, why do you assume that

I am just talking about YOU when I say "fanatical idiots" who automatically say "Kasravi is not a reference" , without explaining why they talk like that about one of the "most referenced" Iranian researchers?!

I mean, anyone who is a somebody in Iran's languages, religions or history, uses Kasravi's works as one of the well documented references. So, a statement like "Kasravi is not a reference" does indeed sound idiotic to me when given without an explanation and just like that in the air! BUT, I was told that sentence by some fanatical Bahais in Iranian.com in another thread. Maybe those are the ones you automatically have copied the Kasravi comment from!

I thought I answered your particular post immediately, personally, and cordially without referring to you as a "fanatic." I did so since you addressed me specifically. I try not to address anyone I don't know with deragatory words. However, I wouldn't be shy of using those kinds of words to ideologies, or types of arguments or general groups to make my very own point more nakedly clear, even it sounds ugly.

Thanks to 11101932

Dear Friends..

I would like to thank 11102932 for providing the entertainment for this evening...

faryarm 

Kaveh ..

 Thanks for providing the humour tonight..

The only true part was the tea...!

best :) 

faryar 

Kaveh nuraee

Wow! Did I have to spell it out in CAPS? Okay.
SATIRE -- SATIRE -- SATIRE. Can you understnad now?

I feel like choking ..

I feel like choking going through all these comments...I don't know if it is because of the number of the comments, or their content, or maybe, it's just because I read on another SCE blog that two young men are going to be hanged wednesday morning at dawn.

I am choking and wondering. I am restless....

Does anyone know when the sun is going to rise up in the air, at the other side of the planet?

Azarin

The worst Iranian disease is ...

We automatically stick a Tag (barchasb) on the person we are
debating. We deliberately call them anything, with no care about what we say. We are just happy accusing others, to intimidate and
destabilise them.

In this site, I have been accused of being many thing, all so different:

defend Muslim = Agent of IRI

defend Arabs = Mullah lover and traitor

defend Bahai = Fanatic

defend Rosie = ??? Jewish maybe ?

defend Women = have unresolved issue....

But
at least one thing is in common in all those accusation, they all do
agree that I am in idiot ! I means...until today, I was just an
" ignorant " (proved and registered ) but today I' ve got raise and
became an approved idiot.

All this, because I always preach "
Respect" to others. ...and Yes, I do agree I am an idiot because I' m
still here in a site where, everybody is accusing everybody and nothing,
never, go no where ..

Now, JJ is a closet Bahai ! What else ?

Anything newer ?

From Passerby to 3 dear Bahais

Dear Faryarm:
1- I am familiar with your (Babi then Bahai) analogy. Let’s see …so, all prophets before Baha Ullah were: first grade, 2nd grade, 3…teachers and it goes up to Baha Ullah who has the PHD to direct us to God, right? So he is on the top and he is the right one. Aren’t you denying your own argument?
2- SAMUEL GRAHAM WILSON is wrong because he was a missionary? Thanks for your respect for other believers.
Maybe Kermani is discredited by someone (unknown to me) but let me inform you that he is strongly credited by Ferydoon Adamiat (known to any well read people and scholars). Read: “Andishehay-e Mirza agha khan-e kermani”
//www.babieh.com/farsi/ketab/andisheh_kermani...
3- Juan Cole is not accepted because he “was more interested in his intellectual pursuit”?
Then as soon as he decided to not follow Baha Ullah any more his “logic and reason is deranged”? For me somebody who is intellectually in pursuit to see rights and wrongs and “humbly” or blindly does not follow others has a lot of credibility.
4- You have fear of “disunity”? Are you advocating “VAHDAT-E KALEME”? Doesn’t sound familiar?

Dear Tahirih
I was seeking to know about all religions for years. My reading did not happen only yesterday because of the article above. Believe it or not it was not leisure but, as soon as I found out that the dept of obscurantism has no end, I became a non believer and a “passerby”.
By the way my name would not tell you (or anybody) anything, as much as knowing your name means nothing to me. You can stay a proud Bahai as long as you like. My pride is my independence from zeal.

Aziz
Sit down and read the references I provided, maybe one day it will open your eyes. Then if you find some time you can take your bid to a religious auction.

All these "isms" are causing a schism

To: 11101932: So what if JJ is a Bahai? Who cares? What does it have to do with the price of berenj?

There are people who need to stop acting as though being Bahai were some kind of disease. I have yet to hear one story about violent or destructive acts against others and/or their property in the name of the Bahai religion. As for all of the criminal acts committed in the name of Allah or Mohammad, or in the name of Jesus, I lost count back in 1970s.

In referring to Bahais, JJ said, "We should see them not as heretics, not as British or Israeli spies, but just as Iranian and human as any."

The more I read some of these derogatory comments about Bahais, the more I begin to believe they're more human than those who harbor ill will towards them.

Shameful.

age of enlightenment

I had decided that it was best to allow everyone to share their thoughts on JJs blog.

I hear so much concern about kasravi, he can only add to a confused world. he was not a part of the solution and that makes his writing just as much useful. kasravi, regardless of his lowliness or greatness can not and will not and could not convey the truth that he himself failed to grasp.
I tell you not because I worry about him or his work,
if he is anyones hero and has enlightened anyone then by all means.

Though to know like of kasravi one need to get familliar with misunderstanding, paranoia and whatever other deasese of wisdom he was afflicted with before proceeding anyfurther.

Iranians need ENLIGHTENMENT, we have had enough of Mullah, kasravi, skeptics, disgruntled employees and deranged students on shooting spree or verbal and physical and moral hate rampage.

One ordinary Iranian who is enlightened and respects peoples' strugle and dignity and their sacred right to be, just like many other posters here can propel the iranian nation forward by light years and one other with the bagage of distrust and paranoia can keep us in the infirmary of nations for centuries to come.

Everyone chooses for themselves, that is how God wants it or for our athiest friends that is how they see it right.

The WOW factor that some are looking for here is the final freedom from mental and spiritual slavery. That is we are no longer paralized by an uncertain future of doom, we are well informed and active participent of the process of future making.
Wait nolonger, seal Jamkaran, the prophecies of the thousand years are fulfilled, there is now a definite promise of a bright future and all contradictory misconceptions of diverse people are once for all clarified.
Despair no more.
The great peace is here but it must be realized by us, it will not be fed to us.
God is not going to chew our food for us, he provides the means and we utilize. If this WOW does not drop our jaw the alternative is to wait for aramgeden and the dooms day and live the days of our lives not knowing what God really has planned for us, not to mention that this does not make God seem fair.

And if we dont make the effort then it is our imagination not God who is silent.

The bahai teachings have the potential to free one from the shackles of consuming superstitions and man-concived expectations that God will never fulfill.
This is GRAND freedom.

Faith is a divine knowlede not a mere blind acceptance out of resenting fear. Those who have this knowlegde and have been made to practice it have access to the truth and are unmoved by any and all the clamors and slanders.

"Hear no evil, see no evil speak no evil".

It is the time for us to resolve to concieve the good in all things and move ahead leaving behind the chains those who control our conciounce afflict us with.

The path JJ has taken is an evolutionary path, I applaud him for that yet this path is inevitable, when and at what price, it is upto us.

JJ is a closet Baha'i

Okay JJ, come right out and admit it. No use denying that you are not a Baha’i. No point in even saying that you don’t believe in any religion. The Islamists, the Hiszbollahis, and the truly devoted Muslims will not fall for your deceptive schemes.
See, there is a saying in Farsi: kafar hemera be keeshe khod pendarad. Islamists are masters of tagyyeh (dissimulation or lying), so they can readily recognize another dissimulator. Keep in mind that Muhammad has advised his followers: estor zahabeka va zehabeka va mazhabek (hide your gold, your coming and going, and your religion.) So, you must be doing a Muslim thing here by claiming that you have no religious belief.
Beside, you alluded sarcastically in your post something about worshiping a stone. I bet you were making mockery of the millions of Muslims who annually converge on the great mosque in Mecca and circumambulate the kabeh – the cube repository of the black sacred stone the Muslims revere.
At the very least, you are a Baha’i and you really don’t know it. You must have failed to heed the advice of the mullahs who have forever warned the faithful not to drink Baha’is’ tea. Because the Baha’is lace their tea with a magical ingredient that converts the drinker to their ferghe zalleh.
Furthermore, all this talk about live and let live and let everyone be free for as long as they don’t harm others smacks of Baha’i propaganda. Don’t you know that the holy Quran grants special rights only to the faithful of Allah and particularly to the faithful male? So, come right out JJ, admit it that you are a Baha’i. Heed my advice, repent and be a revert to save yourself from hellfire and eternal damnation.

Jaleho - you were picked out !

 Souri Khanum picked you out just like that!

Jaleho, you have further discredited yourself and your reference by demeaning others and acknowleging that you only drink from one well, just like any other fanatic. Fanaticism is not limited to the religious kind.  No matter how many times you read Kasravi, you will not learn the following.

The scientific method demands that the validation of a hypothesis, like the one advertised by you, be contingent on NOT finding disconfirming evidence. You clearly are not familiar with this process and therefore have chosen to just read the digested view of one person (Kasravi) and adopted it as (hmm) Gospel!  Amazing for a self proclaimed secularist.

Why don't you, Jaleho, look for disconfirming evidence?  Are you afraid that the intelligence, that you question in others (like Mehdi), gets strained, and also may need a reader's digest (like the one you offered Mehdi) of the vast number of disconfirming information out there ?   Remember that a kid today has more access to information that Kasravi had in his entire life time.

Today, there is no need to rely on 100 year old references  and their yet older references, created in an age of darkness and bigotry.  The evidence is out there at your finger tips, so have at it on the keyboard, and begin to act responsibly.  Search and read all you want. 

Thanks Souri Khanum!  The exposure was going to happen sooner or later, but you have allowed it to be sooner.

Alborz

Jaleho

" 3. you should be intelligent enough to disregard automatic nonsense of
"Kasravi is not a reference" which comes from some fanatical idiots in this site "...

I maybe an idiot as you affirmed so, but why a fanatic ? Why should I be a fanatic? Am I a Bahai ? What did I say in this blog (or elsewhere) that did make you think of me as a fanatic one ? I said I am open to read any other sources that you can provide on it...

Reading your reply to my comment dear, it proves that you are the most fanatic here, not me !

"...some .fanatical idiots in this site who god knows based on what credentials allow themselves to
diss the most respected historian of Iran "...

You,
Madam (or Mr?)...you and your type of judgement are the Best credentials
source for me to discredit the person You believe as the most respected
historian. As your comment here shows your value of the word RESPECT, So I don' t need to know your ideal person.

Dear rahgozar

Thank you for addressing me. I'm not Shaer.

I think it's perfectly good for Bahaii's who are following this discussion to step in and answer questions or address gross over-generalizations reflected here, but I just don't think they should answer every single comment, that's all. I think they have enough wisdom and practice with this to know how to do it in a constructive way. I merely made an observation to the effect that every other comment on the thread being that of Faryar's is not good for his cause. Again, I say all of this with utmost respect for Bahaii's and compassion for their suffering.

See All

No need to be sorry, Point well taken .

respectfully 

faryarm 

See all, or shaer or who ever you are.

I want to know what these bahaii's say to the questions. why are you telling them not to answer?I like to hear their reasons. i am not going to be a bahaii by what they say , but it is good to know more about everything including bahaism.

My only answer to The Mrs's respectful comment is this ,again:

 I had a friend in university in Iran.  She was raised in a very traditional Muslim household,   Her mother  was a  devoted Muslim lady. For some reason unknown to me all the children were staunch communists. I was not a Baha'i then and as a young person does ,I was searching for different and new ideas.

We both had Baha'i friends and she was my room mate. Some nights when we were alone in our room she would say , you know Tahirih, these bahais are all spies and set up by savak and Britain. I used to reply, I do not know , but religion sucks and they are all the same fanatics. One night I asked her ... so if you ever have to pick a religion what would you choose?

Her reply , sums up my story, she said of course Islam!!!!!!!

I am trying to show the readers how our upbringings effects our judgments and prejudices later on in life , so much that a staunch communist who fervently would have argued about non existence of God  but  raised in a Muslim house ultimately would pick Islam.

I am sure if she was raised as a bahai would pick bahai faith , and if raised as a christian would pick Christianity.

So you may think you are atheist, but your judgement is colored by your up bringing. As far as me I guess I am an anomaly ! or am I ?

With the hope of freedom for all,

Tahirih

Mehdi, read Kasravi's tretise

Mehdi, the reason that I gave Kasravi's book as a reference is:

1.  Kasravi is one of the most researched and well respected historians of Iran.

2.  I know that Kasravi reminds people of the voluminous "Tarikh Mashrouteh Iran" but, all you need to learn about Bahaism in his treatise of a book,  is a mere 50 pages! Even an intellectually lazy person for sure can handle 50 pages rather than ruminating someone else' reading it for him!

3.  you should be intelligent enough to disregard automatic nonsense of "Kasravi is not a reference" which comes from some fanatical idiots in this site who god knows based on what credentials allow themselves to diss the most respected historian of Iran.

4. I'd take Dr. Fereydoon Adammiat's comment over the uneducated fanatical comments on this site.  He writes in his book "Amir Kabir and Iran" , chapter on bob:

"As far as we know, the best general historical research made in Persian language is Kasravi's treatise on "Bahaigari".

If you're still too lazy to read a 50 page valuable treatise, I'll write it for you briefly  a bit later. Do you still want me to?

The Mrs. and Faryar M.

The Mrs.

Please stick to talking about the nonesense you always talk about in your own posts. Making detours into posts where grown-up issues are being discussed is not for you my dear, and the caliber of your comment shows it, too.

Faryar M.

Please stop answering every comment made here. This is not your post, it is JJ's, and its subject is tolerance, which I'm afraid you're not showing very well. If, as a Bahaii, you show up on this post and take it upon yourself to reply to every single contradictory or critical, even nonesensical (as in the case of The Mrs.) comment, you are not helping your cause; you're just appearing as a pushy salesman for your faith. Remember, this type of behavior is one of the reasons there is resistence to the Bahaii's presence on the site. Please don't defeat your own purpose! Let us follow what seemed to be a fair and balanced dialogue until you started hijacking it. Sorry for my critical tone. I really want to help the Bahaii's and this is not the way my friend.