اسلام و عقب ماندگی ایران


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Fred
by Fred
17-Jan-2012
 

پیش از این با الهام از مقالۀ "استبداد دینی و دین استبدادی" مهدی مظفری، رئیس مرکز مطالعات اسلام‌گرایی و افراطی‌گری دانشگاه آرهوس دانمارک، چند سطری تقدیم شد.

در جدیدترین مقالۀ مظفری، "چهار عامل عقب ماندگی خاور میانه و جهان اسلام" ارقام هولناکی در رابطه با ٢٢ کشور عرب ارائه شده؛ منجمله:

کل درآمد ناخاص سالانه این ٢٢ کشور که در میان آنها بزرگ‌ترین تولیدکنندگان نفت و گاز جهان هستند تنها معادل درآمد ناخالص سالانه اسپانیا است که نه نفت چندان دارد و نه گاز: (حدود ۶۰۰ میلیارد دلار در آستانه قرن حاضر).

مجموع تمام نشر کتاب در این بیست و دو کشور معادل است با نشر کتاب در یونان. در همینحال رقم بیسوادی و تبعیض جنسیتی در این بیست و دو کشور بسیار بالاست."

ناگفته پیداست که اوضاع در ایران با آنهمه منابع طبیعی و خلاقیت و استعدادهای انسانی، تفاوت ماهوی چندانی، خصوصاً تحت حاکمیت نظام پربرکت مسلمین "اصلاح طلب" و غیره، با این کشورها ندارد.

سئوال:

آیا " مسئله اینست که در خاورمیانه اسلامی، اعتقاد جای خرد، و دین جای فلسفه را گرفته‌است"؟

چرا ایرانیان بسرعت در کشورهای آزاد شکوفا میشوند و در ایران نه؟

آیا قبول واقعیات عینی و تلاش برای یافتن راه برونرفت از مخمصه؛ مستلزم و الزاماً ضدیت با دین اسلام است؟

با چماق تکفیر اسلامیستهای معمم و فوکولی چه باید کرد؟

تبریک


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more from Fred
 
BacheShirazi

Iran 2050

by BacheShirazi on

I’m not sidetracking, I’m telling you Islam, as a whole, as a concept,
as a way of life, it’s not just represented in those versus. Islam, just
like any other religion and ideology throughout history, is a platform
for one to pick whatever parts they feel suited and best for them. It
can be subjected to infinite different interpretation.

 

I don't care if it can be interpreted in 100000000 different ways, the fact is some interpretations are more correct than others.I have met people who are Muslims for gay rights.They think Islam is perfectly OK with homosexual behaviour. Is their interpretation just as reasonable as everyone else's? Fuck no.This is a ridiculous interpretation of Islam and anyone who knows the religion would agree.Islam, as it was intended to be understood, is very compatible with what the Islamic republic is doing in many cases. 

 

 Take for example Socialism, it’s an ideology just like Islam; it comes
in many forms. In some countries where the socio-economic-political
conditions are a certain way, Socialism adopts a certain figure.

Islam is a religion, the definitive texts were written over a thousand years ago. Where in these texts does it say you can change the rules to suit the country? I see some people saying the terrible things in the Quran were only meant for that time. If that's the case then where in the Quran does it say that you can stop following these rules in five hundred years, or you can stop following them in a thousand years? It doesn't. 

 

 

 Therefore, when someone comes out and says “Islam is evil” they’re
making an unscientific, historically inaccurate, and because many people
subscribe to it and are good well behaved citizens, frankly..intolerant
and bigot, statement.

 

No they are not. The Quran as it was intended to be understood is completely incompatible with modern society. The only compatible version of Islam is one that is so radically altered from the original teachings that it is no longer Islam. If  Allah is actually real then the people who follow this modern Islam are destined to hell.

 

 

 You can certainly call IRI’s version of Islam, which is a VERSION not an interpretation, EVIL, I certainly do

 

Well what's your version of Islam? I am looking at all these quotes and they seem perfectly compatible with what Iran is doing. How do I interpret some of these quotes as anything different? It seems perfectly clear to me what message is trying to be said.It certainly leads me to believe that gay rights or women's rights Muslims have a very incorrect  version of Islam. 

 

 
"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that
it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners
in gay sexual intercourse)

 

 
And  two men from among you bear witness to all such documents
[contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available,
there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of
the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her

 

How do I interpret these quotes? They seem perfectly clear to me. Please show me what I am missing.

 

 

 In order to examine the root cause of societal illness’, you need to
look at socio-economic-political (religion included but not limited to)
conditions

 

The root cause of problems in the middle east is people are too religious. This is the problem with Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and many other countries. These people are not able to function in  a democracy. All these countries would benefit from a good dictator until they are ready to join the civilised world. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

2050

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

The only one it "proves" to is you and your opinion means nothing to me. Regarding Islam the difference is I may say things but do not hurt anyone. Islamist murder people who give up Islam.


Iran 2050

BacheShirazi, I’m not

by Iran 2050 on

BacheShirazi,

I’m not sidetracking, I’m telling you Islam, as a whole, as a concept, as a way of life, it’s not just represented in those versus. Islam, just like any other religion and ideology throughout history, is a platform for one to pick whatever parts they feel suited and best for them. It can be subjected to infinite different interpretation.

Take for example Socialism, it’s an ideology just like Islam; it comes in many forms. In some countries where the socio-economic-political conditions are a certain way, Socialism adopts a certain figure. Sometimes it becomes destructive like Communism, sometimes it becomes a safety net like here in the States. Do you see where I’m going with this? Islam, being an ideology, is the same. Islam, just like any ideology, is subject to interpretation, thus, you can’t call it “EVIL”, just like you cant Socialism or Capitalism or Zoroastrianism or Christianity or ….”EVIL” or “NON-EVIL”.

Therefore, when someone comes out and says “Islam is evil” they’re making an unscientific, historically inaccurate, and because many people subscribe to it and are good well behaved citizens, frankly..intolerant and bigot, statement. You can certainly call IRI’s version of Islam, which is a VERSION not an interpretation, EVIL, I certainly do, but what I’m saying is be open minded, be scientific, be tolerant, and be respectful. In order to examine the root cause of societal illness’, you need to look at socio-economic-political (religion included but not limited to) conditions.

Is that too much to ask some Iranians?


Iran 2050

VPK, Every time I make a

by Iran 2050 on

VPK,

Every time I make a point, although you come out bashing it, but your behavior representing in your response just proves my point. I’m saying many Iranians are intolerant, you come out bashing and insulting me saying they’re not, not knowing that itself is an illustration of intolerance. You’re saying regarding Islam people are free to say what they want, but you bash and insult me when I say whatever I want about Iran.

So again, thanks for proving my point.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

2050

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Your non stop insults to Iranians are very offensive.  How dare you call Iranians racist when all your posts are racist anti Iranian. Why don't you read your own post to see true racism.

Regarding Islam: people are free to say what they want. Most people want freedom of religion. But your Islam says that Muslims should kill those who give up Islam. Well now how about freedom of religion do I get to pick mine.

In your world anyone who criticizes Islam in any way is a "fascist". But Islamists get to do what they want. Real world is different and people are free to do as they want so keep yelling.

 


BacheShirazi

Iran 2050

by BacheShirazi on

As far coming up with versus from the Quran to show Islam’s inhumane side, well, that’s a lost argument. Because there are many times as much versus that have positive tones and positive teachings. So where do those fall? Teachings like love your neighbor, love humanity, ….how do you explain that?

Why is everyone on this website unable to have a discussion about something without going off into a million different sub topics. So what if the Quran says love your neighbour?. You said that what the Islamic republic is doing does not represent real Islam. However these quotes clearly show that Islam supports a lot of the things the Islamic republic is doing. How do you explain that? 

Stop acting like the Islam is something completely unrelated to what is happening in Iran.

As far as Hadith goes, those are very shaky. Especially thanks to IRI and thanks to Iranian trickery, the Akhoonds have made up so many Hadiths and label them as Islamic.

Fine, lets say that was true. What about these quotes directly from the Quran?

"To the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half."

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . .


There you go, two quotes in the Quran which clearly show you can never have equal rights of the genders under Islam.

 The fact of the matter is Quran, which is true Islam, is a book mostly filled with stories, some rituals, and a smaller portion of teachings.

As I have shown, "true Islam" shows that men and women are not equal.

Here, have some more true Islam straight from the Quran.


A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And  two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her


We need to remove ANY religion, including Islam, from the state. The minute you bring ANY religion into government, that’s when problems start. The same happened when Ardeshir Babakan, a Zoroastrian version of shite Khomeini, mixed Zoroastrianism with the state. It is not healthy.

For universal declaration of religious freedom.

Oh god, here we go. Who are you even talking to? Why do you state "for universal deceleration of religious freedom" as if anyone here  is opposed to that? Did anyone say we should ban people from being Muslim? No. As soon as someone criticises Islam you people talk about freedom of religion. Guess what? Freedom includes the right for me to criticise any religion as much as I want.

But anyway, please explain to me how what the Islamic republic is doing is completely different from the teachings of Islam.


Iran 2050

Statements such as

by Iran 2050 on

Statements such as “Remove Islam from Iran” is a Fascist-like statement aiming at preventing people from the right to worship and practice religion freely. At the same time, that statement illustrates the real problem with Iran: the intolerance and bigotry that has existed in “Fars” culture for 2500 years now and that is the reason for Iran’s ills, NOT ISLAM!

As far coming up with versus from the Quran to show Islam’s inhumane side, well, that’s a lost argument. Because there are many times as much versus that have positive tones and positive teachings. So where do those fall? Teachings like love your neighbor, love humanity, ….how do you explain that?

As far as Hadith goes, those are very shaky. Especially thanks to IRI and thanks to Iranian trickery, the Akhoonds have made up so many Hadiths and label them as Islamic.

Making racist and unscientific claims that “Iranians who gave up Islam act normal” is comical, at best, if not sad. What about all the peace loving normal devoted Muslims around the world? What about Iranians who “gave up Islam” and act “abnormal”? Examples are numerous.

The fact of the matter is Quran, which is true Islam, is a book mostly filled with stories, some rituals, and a smaller portion of teachings. In that, it is no different than any other “religious” book in the history. It is also a fact that religion was made up to control the masses, no questions asked. The important factor is though that socio-economical-political condition is the root cause of societal ills, regardless of the faith and religion of that society. If those conditions are met, the society is in good shape, if not, the society will have problems. History shows us that. It’s that simple.

We need to remove ANY religion, including Islam, from the state. The minute you bring ANY religion into government, that’s when problems start. The same happened when Ardeshir Babakan, a Zoroastrian version of shite Khomeini, mixed Zoroastrianism with the state. It is not healthy.

For universal declaration of religious freedom.


salman farsi

اسلام به ذات خود ندارد عیبی!

salman farsi


 

هر عیب که هست از مسلمانی ماست

 

For an Islamic democracy


HHH

Let's Face It

by HHH on

All religions suck, I mean all the way from Islam, Christianity and Judaism to Hinduism, Budhaism, & Bahaii, they all simply force people to take side or be damned. All religions are made by the people (Not God) to control other people and to slowly suck their blood like leeches, while they're not sucking our blood they fly over our head like vultures. It keeps happening throughout the history. From Moses to Jesus to Mohammad to this last funnyguy Bahaollah who claimed to be another prophet, they only exploited the people's need for a escape from status quo and called for another "Ommat" to gather around them and practice what they preached.

My religion is simply Humanity, by common-sense, by logic and by science. I don't need a 3500 year old book written by God-knows- who to teach me how to live these few years of short life on Earth, thank you.


IranFirst

Myth of "Golden Age of Islam" to prove Islam was good

by IranFirst on

Today Islamic countries are the most backward
countries in the world. If it was not for the oil they would also be the
poorest countries. But the Muslims keep recalling the great scientific
luminaries of the so-called “golden age” of Islam. They name great
minds like Zakaria Razi, Abu Ali Sina, Ibn Rushd, etc who have contributed
so much to the science and human understanding and pose the questions that
have become cliché, “If Islam was wrong, could these great men not have
noticed it?”  “Isn’t it
enough proof of the truth of Islam that so many great minds have been
Muslims?” 

However, the truth is that these men, though born
within Islam, were not Muslims. 

”Zakariya ar Razi  (865-925) for example was
perhaps the greatest freethinker in the whole of Islamic world. He was one
of the great physicians of all times. He wrote over two hundred books on a
wide variety of subjects. He is the author of the monumental encyclopedia al
Hawi, on which he worked for fifteen years. Ar Razi was an empiricist, who
instead of following the standard procedures dogmatically carefully recorded
the progress of his patients, and the effects of the treatment on them. He
wrote one of the earliest treatises on infectious diseases—smallpox and
measles. 

Almost all of Ar Razi’s philosophical books are
destroyed. His views on religion in general and Islam in particular earned
him public condemnation for blasphemy. Only bits and pieces of his
refutation of revealed religion are left in a refutation of his book by an
Ismaili author. From this, it is clear that the greatest mind of the Islamic
golden age was not sympathetic towards Islam at all. Here are his audacious
thoughts on religion:

“All men are by nature equal and equally endowed with the faculty of
reason that must not be disparaged in favour of blind faith; reason further
enables men to perceive scientific truths in an immediate way. The prophets—these
billy goats with long beards, as Ar Razi disdainfully describes them—cannot
claim any intellectual or spiritual superiority. These billy goats pretend
to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in
spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the
"words of the master."

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/freethin...


BacheShirazi

Iran 2050

by BacheShirazi on

Stop bashing Islam! The Fascist and terrorist regime of IRI does not
represent Islam, does not teach true Islam, does not promote real
Islam…even if they claim 24/7 that they do!

 

Really. They don't even represent Islam a bit? Are you sure?

Let me just use Homosexuality as an example. If you would like we could go onto womens rights or many other topics, but that's only if you would like to continue the discussion. 

 

 The Hadith and homosexuality: The Hadith are collections
of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat
(sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that
it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners
in gay sexual intercourse)

 

In more than one place in the Holy Koran, Allah recounts to us the
story of Lot's people, and how He destroyed them for their wicked
practice. There is consensus among both Muslims and the followers of all
other religions that sodomy is an enormity. It is even viler and uglier
than adultery.

Allah Most High says: "Do you approach the males of
humanity, leaving the wives that Allah has created for you? But you are a
people who transgress" Koran (26:165-66)

(1) The Prophet (saws) said: (1) "Kill the one who
sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Tirmidhi, a sahih
(authentic) hadith)

(2) "May Allah curse him who does that Lot's people did." (Ibn Hibban, sahih (authentic))

(3) "Lesbianism by women is adultery between them." (Tabarani, sahih)"

Taken from the Reliance of the Traveller, transltaed by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, p 664-665.

 

Why is it, Iran 2050 that most schools of Islam do support a punishment for homosexual behaviour? Why is it that men who have spent their entire lives in dedication to interpereting and understand the Quran have come to this conclusion. But you, Iran 2050 know better than them? You who is probably at best a liberal Muslim who does not take their religion seriously. How do you know better about what represents Islam than a bearded man who has devoted his entire life to the Quran? 

 

 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Go bash Islam

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Why should I stop bashing Islam which is barbaric and sick. We do not have any reason to blame ourselves. Those Iranians who give up Islam become normal. They act normal and civil like anyone in the regular world.

Those who are nominally Muslim are still alright people. But the hard core Islamic are impossible to deal with. I ask: what religion today practices amputation as punishment. What religion says women are half a man in mind.

Islam has so many problems don't know where to begin. Removing Islam from Iran is great. But we must first remove it from our hearts and minds. It was several hundred years of Safavids that entrenched Islam. Will take a lot of work to purge it.


Iran 2050

Stop bashing Islam! The

by Iran 2050 on

Stop bashing Islam! The Fascist and terrorist regime of IRI does not represent Islam, does not teach true Islam, does not promote real Islam…even if they claim 24/7 that they do!

There are historical examples of when Islam was applied in society and people had prosperous lives. The Islamic empire is a great example. When most of the west was in the darkness of ignorance and backwardness, Islamic world was the destination to learn science and arts and trade.

Until we keep blaming Islam and not ourselves and what we do and what we say and our culture as Iranians and how we treat each other and how we think, we will never get out of this hole we’re in.

Simple as that.


Maryam Hojjat

Fred, Very Good reason for this camparison

by Maryam Hojjat on

 Must Remove Islam from IRAN.