Pictory

Re roadbump

Dear VPK, IRI indeed is a roadbump on our nation's quest for democracy and freedom. Just like every other despot before it who stood against our people's will from Bani Omayyad to Pahlavis! Its existence is a mere flash compared to the degree and duration of what our people have gone through in their long jurney to liberty! If it wasn't for idealists, countries like France would not had enjoyed the freedom they enjoy today!

And regarding Bakhtyar, who are you kidding?! It was the army facing people at that time, there was no government left! He was just thrown in as the last resort to cover up for Shah's escape! People never had Bakhtyar, for when it mattered, he was still in jail, remember? At that stage, even if he survived, he would not have stood a chance vis a vis the army generals for he was not a part of the Pahlavi regime! Now, who's the idealist?!

Arj

I am not saying put up with lack of freedom. But I am saying use your head. If you want to make a change see what you are getting. If I don't like a hamburger I don't get a s*** sandwich instead! 

I really hate idealists because they always replace bad with worse. They are by nature incapable of vision and compromise. They will pick fights which are unwindable. They pick allies who are worse then the enemy read: PMOI. 

I do not call IRI a "bump" it is more like a disaster of major proportions. Remember I was there I remember it myself. They had Bakhtiyar and freedom. But just like children the "democrats" stamped their feet and demanded Khomeini.

Re hindsight

Dear VPK, I was going to respond to your post with regards to this issue on another thread, but since it was too congested in there, I do here. What you are saying is like saying in hindsiht, Egypt under Mobarak was as good as it gets for the Egyptians considering the current state of affairs -- not to mention the less-than-promising economic outlook and the possibility of the Islamists' victory in the future elections. The same might at some point be said about Libya or even the future Syria!

What you are suggesting is that people should put up with lack of freedom and basic human rights out of the fear that some day in hidsight, some may regret the inauspicious turn of events! In that case, despots all over the world should be left alone to rule over their peoples with iron fists out of fear that the next person in charge could be more brutal than the incumbent! People have taken, do, and will take that chance throughout the history for they see that as the only way forward. Yes, there have been, are, and will be roadbumps and obstacles on their way to liberty and democracy. But sooner or later, they will get there!

Folks

We are never going to know what it would have been like with Mossadegh

We do know what we had with Shah and what we got with IRI. Given those realities I say we did better with the Shah. You guys who want a paradises will never get it. Perfection is not possible. Settle for good enough then improved it or you end up with horrible. That should be our lesson.

In my opinion oil nationalization was a mistake and I already said why many times.

Mosaddeq, Tudeh party an illusion

" foundations of a civil society that were destroyed while those roads and bridges were being built" Arj 

Foundation of civil society is "Education". It was not destroyed by shah. In fact, it was promoted by shah and his adminstration. Ilitracy rate was over 90% in back in 50's. Under shah deligent effort and sending "troops of education" (sepah-e-danesh)  to small villiages and remote area of the country the ilitracry rate dropped to 45% by late 70's. That rate was very much comparable to the other developing countries at that time. With all shah's effort to fight against illeracy, many were seeing Khomainie's picture on the surface of the moon by late 70's. Some even found his hair in Koran. Back in 50's over 90% of our people couldn't read or write their own names. Speaking of "civil society" and "democracy for vote" in that social configration is a big joke.

Nationalizing oil in Feb. 1952 is something. August 1953 is another thing. Even in August 1953 has nothing to do with nationalizing oil in Feb. 1952. Seems people here get confused between these 2 different historical events.

The myth goes on as if shah wouldn't return to crown in August 1953 Iran under hegemony of Mosaddeq and his 20,000 official members of Tudeh party back by soviet Union would have been like a paradise. Isn't that sound familiar? Ya, we heard that in 1979. I remember vividly that once shah leaves and Islamic Republic establish Iran would be like a paradise. Very democratic and foundation of civil society would have been built. yes, I remember all those colorful words. "Imperialism", "colonial power" ,"Petty Bourgeois" "Bourgeois" . yes, it sounds very familiar. I remember all those promises. Now, I am hearing again for something that never happened. Now, making "bot" of something that never had happened. Good fantasy. It is like "Mental Masturbation". Keep going friends. To make it sounds like if mosaddeq with his buddies tudeh party back by soviet union were in charge Iran would have been like a paradise. Are you guys this much naive? I just don't believe what I am reading here.

Sincerely,

Siavash 

Arj

Okay, then I'll be content with b%&çh-slapping them this time. But don't ask for more.

Arj

Perhaps what you are confusing here as the difference between "a democrat and a dictator" is the difference between an inept dictator and an able dictator!

Yeh you got a point and did give me a good laugh :-) Where does G.W. Bush stand: inept or able? 

Re Maggie and Liz

I'd be careful with the spanking though if I were you Parham! For they've both had hip replacemnt recently!

Re democrat vs dictator

Dear VPK, are you serious? You consider Yeltsin a democrat?! If by democrat you mean dragging people to the polls once every four years, then Khamenei too is a democrat! Yeltsin was one of the most corrupted politicians in the history of mankind! Corruption and democracy don't go together, for one of the fundamental principles of democracy is transparency!

On the other hand, nepotism and cronyism are building blocks of autocracy. Indeed, Yeltsin's unelected handlres, his duaghter and son in law, were the ones who ran the state affairs during his prolonged periods of black out! Putin however, is his own man and has his own set of rules and requirements of cronyism and oligarchism! What does that have to do with democracy?!

Perhaps what you are confusing here as the difference between "a democrat and a dictator" is the difference between an inept dictator and an able dictator!

Arj

Glad we are now passed that. I was saying "would" not "should" have done. Anyway I am not the Shah and he is dead. So we are not going to find out. Regarding ***holes I think there are a ton of them around.

It is sometimes better for a nation to have a dictator than a democrat. For example for years Russia was run by a democrat named Yeltsin. He was a drunk; corrupt and ruined Russia. Thanks to Western help got reelected.

Then came a dictator named Putin. He is sober; patriotic and honest. Managed to reverse much of Yesltin's damage. Now who is better for Russia? Forget Iran just think for a moment who did more for his nation. 

Arj

By the looks of it, I'll have to put that old fart Maggie Thatcher in her place first before I get to Elizabeth herself!
But in any case, it's all my pleasure. What's giving a good spanking to those who deserve it to please friends.

Insolvency alert!

Dear Parham, khoda shoma ro az bozorgi kam nakoneh! This poor Queen Elizabeth II has mouths to feed -- and new ones being added by the minute! If all Iranians were to treat her like you do, she'd go out of business in no time!!!

Dear Arj, I knew exactly what you were referring to

Thus my praise for your comment as I whole heartedly agree with it.

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

VPK

Dear VPK, I took your response literally to my question as to what you think Shah should've done differently in dealing with his opponents! However, I'm glad that you believe that killing his opponents (which you refered to as A-holes) is wrong!

Re Arj

Dear Bavafa, thanks. What I meant by "heard it all before" is all these nauseating tauntings about the outcome of 1979 by the supporters of Pahlavis sush as: "Bekeshid..., bekeshid, khalayegh har cheh layegh," as if they're happy to see Iranians miserable, oppressed and complaining about IRI. Or better yet, "people were stupid and did not deserve Shah..." as If Shah was a permanent fixure ordained by god and people were to adjust to his wishes!

This one actually cracks me up the most: "Yes, Shah was a dictator, but..." which is normally followed by an absurd rationalization attempt such as "...economy was good" or "...he had to, because if he didn't, such and such would've happened" in addition to countless more hypthetical scenarios justifying his despotic rule! The same old, treadbare generic excuses that apologists of despots all over the world have used and still do! It's like saying "Mobarak was a dictator, but..."!

Was it not for the Brits promoting him

Dr Mo's rise to power would have been blocked after his governorship of Fars and his services to the South Persia Rifles force in suppressing the Tangistan freedom fighters.

Dr Mo's selective amnesia to his former benefators was his undoing - and thank God for that :))

Arj aziz

Hala choon shoomayi ye-khameshoono vel mikoonam. Vali dige bishtar az in esrar nafarmayn.

Arj

I did not propose anyone be shot. I said he might have done it not that I would. Does anyone here read anything or is it just assumptions.

Dear Arj: Amen to that...

"Heard it all before!"

 Could not have said it better.

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Re all Iranians

Dear VPK, all Iranians include the opponents of Shah whom you proposed to be shot dead! I oppose monarchy, but do not call for the proponents of Shah (or anyone for that matter) to be killed, for I believe they have the right to support whomever or whatever they wish. Disagreeing with someone or something is one thing, and wanting them shot dead is another!  

Zarbeh fanni!

Dear Parham, that's some serious wrestling moves! Remember, you just want to teach these Ingilsiaye binamus a lesson, not have their blood on your hands!!!

I would actually...

... "fitile pich" the British first if I were Mossadeq, then I would take their "zire ye kham" and throw them over my shoulder and jump all over their chest with all my weight until their other non-chap eye turns left. After that if they still didn't say "ghalat kardam, goh khordam", I would think of doing to them what agha did to khan-soltane-jafar-aabaadi-e-sardar in the war of Kazerun, which is to put their mother to their grief. That way, we would avoid the revolution of 1979 and we wouldn't even need Sha'boon Bimokh to keep and uphold our beautiful life under a'lahazrat. Get it?
Hala'm assan man ba hamatoon ghahram ke ma ro too hamchin vaz'i andakhtin. Bi namaka.

Re: Iran's true children

In my book all Iranians a "Iran's true children". Not just the ones someone declares. If we want the unity Mehrdad asks you better remember that.

Anyway I don't think JM is either relevant or will ever help. They are getting old and stuck in their hatred of Pahlavi. As well as worship of Mossadegh. The only good thing is that they are getting old and just like other (I don't want to put the name M** in the same sentence as JM). I have too much respect for JM to pollute their name with M**. 

The real change will happen without the help of JM or the old guard. I agree with RB and am truly sick of reading blog after blog about Mossadegh. I am out of here for good. You keep praising him maybe his spirit will come rescue Iran!

Cry Me a River ...

Julie London Cry Me A River Colour TV Show

Absolutely

Very well said Arj.

Heard it all before!

This thread seems to tend to become another one of those runaway bickering fests! :)

A kind of going around circles with supporters of Pahlavis jumping at supporters of democracy for "worshipping Mosadegh" and "living in the past" whenever there's a talk of the 1953 coup and any discussion on how to learn from such events. Yet, when it comes to Shah and Reza Shah, no "worship" is enough and no "living in the past" labels are envoked! Yet the difference in the level of humanity of these leaders are totally ignored! Mosadegh did not build rail roads or bridges, but he gave Iranians what no rail road could buy, and that was knowing that their votes count and their opinions matter. Mosadegh made that possible by referring to and respecting their votes.

What we desperately need to learn is that no economy boom, no railways, no asphalt roads and bridges should give anyone the right to torture, murder and treat people as if they're their cattle! While these railways were being built, Iran's true children were being tortured and murdered in Reza Shah's prisons (Please. I urge everyone to read about the likes of Farrokhi Yazdi and Mirzadeh Eshghi whose literary works and love for Iran are still source of inspiration for Iranian patriots)!

Roads and bridges are built all over the world (see Saudi Arabia) and are subject to distructions and reconstructions in a matter of months or years, but foundations of a civil society that were destroyed while those roads and bridges were being built, would take blood and tears of the generations to come to rebuild!

Mossadegh Vs Shah debate is a pretext to avoid the real debate

And that is : what is best fit for Iran in a Post IRI Iran:

A Constitutional Monarchy Vs a Secular Republic ?

But instead of engaging in a serious, fair and adult debate ...

Jomhurykhahs engage in doing everything in their power to undermine and Character Assassinate the Pahlavis and present their dynasty and accomplishments as irrelevant and Illegitimate:

Tajgozaryeh Reza Shah by Mahvash Shahegh

The Question is why is it that Jomhurykhahs demand Accountability from us Constitutionalists:

ROYAL ACCOUNTABILITY: Crown Prince Reza Praises Mossadegh's Patriotism (ANDISHEH TV)

ROYAL ACCOUNTABILITY: Crown Prince Reza on Torture During His Father's Rule

Crown Prince Reza Slams 'Shahollahis'

But Refuse to be accountable for their own Shortcomings 32 years On ? ...

COMPLAINING JOMHURYKHAH: What Have the Pahlavis EVER Done For Us ? ;0)

It's fine to speak about "Hambasteghi" but I am not willing to lend my cheek each time my Constituency or the System of Government I believe in is pulled down in the mud by some JM aficianado who thinks he or she is more entitled to respect or that he or she is more of a democrat than meets to eye ...

But let me make things easy for you folks. 

Let's Say I don't believe in Democracy !

Or more accurately like the Irish Philosopher Endmund Burke I tend to believe Nation's are Entitled to the Democracy they can afford :

Mini lecture on the political philosophy of Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

PROVE ME ( and Edmund Burke ) WRONG !

If You Can that is ...

If Not then An Apology for your Poor Choice 32 Years ago is More than Welcome …

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7mIy97_rlo

LOL 

VPK

I'll just quote the last part of your last post:

"We have no one but ourselves. We are all humans and imperfect. Our leaders are not Gods and we better stop worshiping them."

You are 100% on point and I agree with every single word.

Now, let's put aside this Shah v Mossadegh back and forth and unite against the common enemy of ALL Iranians, namely the Islamic Republic leadership and its instruments of repression.

RB

Point well taken. I agree but I also want to make sure that we do not fall for the same BS again. The good news is that this crowd is aging. In a few years both sides will be gone and forgotten. So don't despair :-)

I still got a couple of hundred years to go so you are stuck with me! What I try to do is to dispel the myths created to idolize a man. We always do this. Khomeini; Shah; Mossadegh; Siavash who transformed into Imam Zaman; Rostam. We got to get away from the concept of the "Savior" or the Zoroastrian Sayosant. Now it is the Americans who are going to come and free us. It has to be changed. We have no one but ourselves. We are all humans and imperfect. Our leaders are not Gods and we better stop worshiping them.

HTG

When all is said and done what matters is normal life. A single party system that provides food; jobs and security is better than a multi party system that provides nothing. Yes; Shah had unwisely made a single party system. But we had a good economy; peace and jobs. 

We also had a lot of whining malcontents. Who looked for nothing other than faults. Nothing Shah did was good. If they got their Communist Paradise Iran would have been a part of the Soviet Union. At least the Islamists managed to keep Iran a separate nation. Let me thank them before we *** them. 

Anyway most reasonable people want: a job; to raise a family and peace. Shah gave us all of that. The "other side" gave us none of that. Thanks to the "revolution" we got 10 years of war; 99.9 % devaluation of our currency; and loss of international respect. Now Iranian means *** in the world. So you guys keep praising Mossadegh who single handedly "defeated" the British (a few more defeats like that and the British will get their empire back). Go on; write a poem; build a shrine why not? Dorrog ke honnagh nemiyareh.