Current Events

Mash Ghanbar Part 3

I don't know how to resolve the "number of Muslim Iranians" issue with you. Unless we conduct a poll that we both believe in and is recent. So I will leave it at that. My own experience is that most Iranians of Muslim background I knew are either "non practicing" Muslim or plain out gave it up. But I am not in a position to convince you.

Trita Parsi I am pretty sure is Zartoshti. However I remember him strongly discouraging Iranian of pursuing the Zartoshti faith. Not sure why since the Iranian Zartoshtis tend to not be exclusive.

Regarding Aslan I have watched him on a number of occasions.  Frankly I find the interviews on PBS with Muslims to be really useless and uninformative. Generally no hard ball questions are made and people are allowed to say whatever they want without any cross examination. Sure he sounds good but so did the Ayatollah before he took power.  In fact if you read Khomeini's claims he sounded perfectly "democratic" and "reasonable" until he took charge. Then he showed his true colors and cost us a nation.

You are absolutely right about one thing: my feelings on Islam. My mistrust and disdain for Islam is strong. It comes from a lifetime of observation and study. I saw what it did to Iran. I have seen what it is trying to to do Europe. I have read the Quoran. I have studied the life of the "Prophet" Mohammad. None of these has spoken in favor of Islam. In fact they have convinced me that it is the single greatest threat to humanity now. I therefore will not stop voicing my warnings to people regarding its danger.

VPK #2

Wicki makes that claim? Does it take into account the periodical variations that takes place in these stats? Youhave been quoting these numbers for as long as i have seen you writing comments on this site. any chance they may have changed by now?? Correct me if i am wrong but is Trita parsi not a Non-muslim leader of NIAC?? That should speak volumes to you when it comes to where they stand.

You are going overboard and changing the subject. I was not even talking about having charisma in that sense, Youjust jumped the gun and went too far with it.  Reza Aslan is not even in the position as you make him out  to be, He is the voice of moderation if you have really listened to his interviews and talks. did you see him on a recent panel on PBS nightly news program? have you read his books?You hate Islam so much you are extending this hatred to various personalities who happen to follow it and its principles and create a devilish image out of them.  And then you "welcome other Pov's" i don't see it!

MM jan

Thanks for posting all that information. Honestly, I already knew about it but zahmat keshidid and mamnoon:))

Still. I have my doubts as to how these efforts through various venues, could really lend any support for the stated goals. at any rate..

VPK #1

The problem with your approach to him is that you make him look dishonest on his claims on or about Islam. You think he is giving islam's image  a reputation a boost  it certainly does not deserve and in that respect you portray him as an dishonest individual who happens to have a role in the NIAC leadership or as its torch bearer. You call his statements Blatanty false, While to the majority they may not seem so, That is the point i am trying to get across.

Mash Ghanbar Part II

What if there are those who are among the population being representedwho like the image the he and thos like him portray? You don't want him, But they do. what do you say to that?

The WIki indicates that 40 % of Iranian Americans are Muslim. The rest are 40% "no religion" and 20% Jewish; Christian; Bahai; Zartoshti and other. IMHO an organization representing Iranian Americans should reflect that makeup and not dominated by Muslims. 

and he just may be that charismatic and rough and tough leader that the majority have in mind. 

The damage "Charismatic" leaders have done to the world from Hitler to Khomeini is immense. I do NOT want a charismatic leader. Nor do I think Iran needs one. In fact the world will be better off if instead of personality worship we started to think for ourselves. As Farah Rusta points out we should stop worshiping people. The last thing we need is yet another over puffed charismatic leader to lead us off the cliff yet one more time. Just my two cents.

Plus contrary to your unfair claim I  won't call you dishonest if you disagree.  I welcome other points of view. You have misjudge me.

Mash Ghanbar

I will move to the next point. That of honesty. I don't expect people to agree with me to be honest. To me definition of honesty is to not make blatantly false statements.

For example Fox claims to be "Fair and Balanced". Now that is a lie and anyone with an ounce of judgment will see that. Another example is those who claim USA is out to promote democray. That is dishonest. You can instead say: USA is out to promote its interests. That is honest even though I may not agree with the goal.

Here is another example; Michael Keating was a banker in the 1980s. He gave a lot of money to politicians to buy favors. He was asked in an interview if he expected to get special treatment. He responded "I sure hoped so!". That was a "crook" who responded honestly. Other crooks who claim they give 300,000 $ with no expectation are lairs.

I hope I have explained what I mean by honesty. Plus I refrained from beating up on Aslan. 

mash Ghanbar

You are right.  Basically, it is one thing to go around saying that we are for or against something.  It is a few notches higher up in effectiveness when we do something about that issue.   

NIAC does its unification of the Iranian-Americans in 3 ways; 1. fund-raisers; 2. writing campaigns and 3. their presence in DC and speaking to the US Congress and the White House.  For the sake of brevity, I will give you an example or two of each:

1. Fund-raisers

NIAC broke the news that the ancient Persian Tablets (known as Persepolis Tablets) on loan to the University of Chicago were in jeopardy of being confiscated by a law suit brought by the families of the victims of a bombing in Israel which a US court held IRI liable thru her terrorist proxies Hamas/Hezbollah, and these tablets were gonna be auctioned off .....  

NIAC with cooperation from the Iranian Lawyers association organized fund-raisers to help pay for the legal costs to defend the Persepolis Tablets in the courts.  In the NY area alone, the local chapters raised more than $110,000 for the legal fees.  This is an on-going battle that ALL Iranians have been united against and will probably not end until it goes to the Supreme Court of the United States.  For the latest, see:

Inside Washington: NIAC's Battle to Save the Persepolis Tablets (//payvand.com/news/10/apr/1032.html)

Where were the other Iranian organizations on this issue and what did they do about it?

2. Writing Campaigns: NIAC helps counter bigotry and anti-Iranian laws by writing campaigns.

A. Personal letters: Back in 2002 (or 3?), Congressman Barrett wanted to kick all Iranians out of the US and permanently prohibit Iranians from immigration, visitation and education in the US.  My congressman was a signatory to this bill.  NIAC notified me and helped me write a personal letter to my Congressman who dropped his support for the bill a short time afterwards.

B. Electronic writing Campaigns: When there is a bill such as in 2A by Barrett (ohh, Barrett tried the same bill 5 years later and again was defeated by NIAC's campaign), or when the resolution green lighting an Israeli strike on Iran was introduced, NIAC took the lead to oppose them.  Thousands of (?) electronic emails from Iranian-Americans were generated which were hand delivered (hard-copies) to the offices of each one of the sponsors of the bills.  Where were the other Iranian organizations on these issues and what did they do about them?

Another example is when Congresswoman Harman called for Iran to be divided along ethnic lines.  NIAC united the Iranian-American community and forced (writing campaign) her to retract her statement.  Where were the other Iranian organizations on this issue and what did they do about it?

When the Iranian people needed support last year, NIAC rallied the Iranian-American community behind the Stand With the Iranian People Act – which laid the ground for targeting Iranian officials for human rights sanctions.

When Imus-in-the-Morning Show (an ex-MSNBC program) said "who care about Iranians; to hell with all of them" on the air, a writing campaign forced MSNBC and Imus to issue public apologies to all Iranians.  Where were the other Iranian organizations on this issue and what did they do about it?

3. NIAC's presence on the capitol: No other organization has brought Iranian American together and made them a force on Capitol Hill.  For the first time, Iranian-Americans have an effective voice in Washington.  NIAC gets invited to the congressional hearings to testify /express opinions on various issues of importance to the Iranian-American (too numerous to count).  I just received an invitation from NIAC to vote on various issues.

There are Iranian-Americans who look more favorably at IRI for a gradual change, or those like me who are completely against IRI, and still support NIAC because we know that NIAC supports freedom for Iran and human rights for Iran rather than supporting specific political factions (See my previous comment for explanation).  Some folks do not like what NIAC does or says on the Capitol Hill, but that is OK in a free society.  Those folks are welcome to form their own organizations and go at it in DC.  The other Iranian-American organizations can also join NIAC in forming an even bigger & more effective voice in DC, or just go around, give speeches and write articles.

VPK

I see your point. But look at it this way. What if there are those who are among the population being represented who like the image the he and thos like him portray? You don't want him, But they do. what do you say to that?

And who suggests that He is the flag bearer in all this? how can say so for sure? Just because he appeared on a few TV shows and dared to launch a few tapes? For god sake, You have beaten him to death over this and you just go non stop voicing your opposition!!!

I guess there will never be Honest people, unless they promote and advocate exactly what you want to hear. He may seem like a strong leader from a different perspective to others and he just may be that charismatic and rough and tough leader that the majority have in mind.

You should not take things too personally, and think Collectively.

Mash Ghanbar Jan

I already said he has every right to his opinion. I respect it. But I do not want him as MY representative. NIAC is an organization that wants to represent all of us not just hard core Shia Muslims. 

Do you see my issue here? I am already a member of NIAC. As a member I have a right to dissent. I am voicing my opposition to Aslan holding a "flag bearer" position. There is a difference.

Also he is lying when about Islam and deliberately minimizing the problem parts. I want honest people in leadership position. Leaders who grab the bull by the horn. Not those who insult my intelligence by telling me lies. That is my position.

VPK

Aslan and his beliefs and principles is not the issue here. You need to respect where he is coming from and what he believes in instead of constantly point fingers to him and put him on the spot. He is just saying look. Islam is not as bad as some may think! that is all he is saying. does not mean he is promoting it.

To units Iran

We must have a secular organization with Iran First as its ideology. That means the high profile people like Aslan as a problem. He is an "Islam First" type. He is more worried about defending Islam right or wrong. When I saw the picture of Ali behind him I knew he is a lost cause. Even for Muslims Ali is not a uniting force. How about the Sunni?

The guy just opens up division as soon as he shows up. Instead of focusing on Iran he goes off on Islam. If NIAC goes his way it will become the "Shia Iranian American Council". I guarantee that it will turn off all other people. Including Sunni; Bahai; Secular and whatever. Why is this guy and other high profile Islamic types given such high profile.

I want to see a powerful Iranian lobby that works for Iran. But this is not the right way.

MM

I need specifics not elaborations of same general principles:)

How have they Proceeded to Unify iranians? I hear their membership roster does not look too impressive.

focusing on such noble goal is not a simple task and requires a huge and extremely well-coordinated plan to acheive, How are they going about doing this?

Like i said before Freedom for iran and HR talk is something ALL other fragmented opposition groups also believe in. Does not seem to me that NIAC is any closer to get there than the rest!! Should they get cracking or what?

..

Merci Dariush khan.

Did like the last paragrah on  Otherwise WE are NO more......... part.

BTW this tread was on should America fear Islam only  thanks.

Maziar

MM Jaan No You Haven't For It's the "Tale of Two Irans"

That of Shapour Bakhtiar and all Genuine Constitionalists or that of the Reformist Islamists. Which One is YOUR Choice or that of NIAC Founders ?

I have Chosen Mine From DAY ONE 30 years ago and did not wait to see the Liberation of Vakili Rad to Discover Shapour Bakhtiar's Political Message for REGIME CHANGE which I FULLY AND UNCONDITIONALLY SUPPORT !

Need I Repeat Once again Without Military Intervention to please You NIAC Sissies ?

I Think NOT !

REZA's CALL: An Iranian Solidarnosc... by DK

RESPONDING TO REZA's CALL: An Iranian Solidarnosc in the Making ...

Otherwise you would not be distorting my comments and genuine opinions in regard to Iran's future by reducing me to a Shahollahi ...

To begin with I am a Constitutionalist and believe in the implementation of the 1906 Constitution which is the Only Secular and Democratic draft with a historical legitimacy that digs deep in the democratic aspirations of our forefathers in the same way the British or American Bill of Rights or the French Universal Declaration of Human Rights are to those countries.

A Constitution which I should remind you was also endorsed by the late Shapour Bakhtiar to the very last breath of that great patriot:

While Denouncing the Illegitimacy of all those who Wished to see the end of that Historical Document for another undefined one with the terrible consenquences for which we have been paying the price for the past 30 years :

pictory: Bakhtiar Denounces Bazargan's Provisionary Government in exile (1979)

What has been the Position of NIAC On this except siding with those who support the Current Constitution ?

NIAC should Either Focus on Iranian American Issues (Civic participation, promoting successful Iranians, promoting cultural initiatives or defending Iranian American Rights when they are threatened all of which I believe they are doing to some degree with a professional dedication ) Or Shut the F...CK UP when it comes to giving lessons of Democracy to the Iranian Opposition and all those who in their own capacity have and continue to Resist the UN IRANIAN Regime of IRan:

PARIS GATHERING: Shapour Bakhtiar and Soroush Katibeh memory honored in Paris (FRANCE)

SPIRIT OF RESISTANCE: Iranian Intelligenstia Remembers Shapour Bakhtiar

BEHOLD THE PALE HORSE: French Socialists Pay Tribute to Shapour Bakhtiar

YES Indeed there are Not a Thousand Options at Hand to Unite the Opposition today !

Either One believes in the Century Old Struggle of Iran for the Establishment of Democracy and Human Rights or You Don't ?

HISTORY FORUM: Nader Naderpour on Iran's Constitutional Revolution and European Rennaissance (1996)

In Which Case I strongly Advise YOU and the NIAC Members to go and do your Homework and learn one or two things about your country's history before Talking Crap in defense of Islamic Ideals and Reformists hypocrisy at the expense of our Nationalist and Patriotic Aspirations which have been stampeded for the past 30 years by people who don't even respect our National Flag which they have disgraced with an Arab Sickle !

Not to say the wiping of Not only the names of Kings and patriots of Iranzamin but also and more importantly of Poets ranging from Ferdowsi to Forough Farrokhzad in the name of Islamic Puritanism:

What is NIAC waiting for to put on it's website Side By Side the American Flag and IRan's Legitimate Flag the Sun and Lion ?:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HdNBjnJ6A

Oh but to come and talk Shit about Muslim Rights and choosing the likes of a Anti Western Pro Palestinian demagogue Hamid Dabashi or a Lost Idealist like Reza Aslan still in the process of soul searching his confused identity they are all ears ?

Who are We Kidding Here ?

After all Why did Iranians Including This Bacheh Akhoundeh Namak Nashnas Houman Majd End Up in America by thousands in the First place if it were Not for the Pahlavis ?

Kennedy Greets Shah and Shahbanou on State Visit 1962:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1a5TAepYXs

NAMAK-NASHNAS NOT: Jamshid (Jimmy) Delshad Greets Shahbanou Farah

So before Talking Crap about an Era you were either too young to appreciate let alone understand through such unrepresentative spokespersons like Hamid Dabashi, Houman Majd or Reza Aslan Get YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT !

Crown Prince Reza Has Got His Straight :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFjjjGwEDkQ

That is why I FULLY SUPPORT HIM !

And in the absence of any other alternative So should Others if they Hope ... I say If they Hope to Ever See the advent of a Democratic and Secular Iran in their lifetimes ...

Otherwise We are No More No Less better than the Pre - 1979 Generation who brought upon themselves and their children the misery of the past 30 years.

Best,

DK

Quite True MOOS Jaan Any Neutral Observor would see

That when I post about our Royal History which has defined our collective identity for the past 25 centuries for better or for worse by refering to prominent and respected historians like Mashadollah Adjoudani or Abbas Milani neither whom are Monarchists to sustain my Constitutionalists Arguments I come across as a Revisionist but when you and your like minds go and fetch in the Soorakh Kooneh Hazrateh Abbas to come up with your obsolete Third Worldly, Left Fartsy unknown and unqualified historians to sustain your recurrent Character Assassinations against the West, the Pahlavis and all things Royal in our 25 Century Old heritage you of all people are considered as Objective and Vatan Parast. 

You and your likeminds are as Lost in Translation as this fellow :

LOST IN TRANSLATION: NIAC Welcomes Hamid Dabashi on Advisory Board

So Indeed I leave to Any Neutral Observor to draw their own conclusions as to what is a revisionist diatribe and what is not ...

"Revisionist Historical diatribe ... "

I think a neutral observer would see your posts on this matter and other shah related posts as revisionist historical diatribe, not mine Darius. open your eyes and stop living in your fantasy world.  

MM

Your problem is easily fixed by asking NIAC not to send you any emailsfrom certain individuals that you do not care for, and why.

I am actually thinking of doing that. But you see getting the emails is not the problem.I like to see a more secular face. What I get for email is not important. What thousands of others get is what defines the standard bearer. 

Islam is a complicated issue. It is probably the most divisive thing among Iranians. Some have a deep dedication while others utter contempt. Walking the path in between is delicate. IMHO it is best to focus on Iranian matters and leave Islam out of it. Not in emails to me but in general. 

I think we need some kind of discussion. Maybe NIAC should poll its members. Maybe we can have a discussion here or both. But we should has out the opinion of the membership. Of course we still agree on things like opposing attacks and indiscriminate sanctions. Thus we do have our common grounds just not on Aslan.

It is very simple. If the

It is very simple. If the American media does not show the Ayatollahs as their enemy, then the military spending would end.

Find a new enemy for the US and Iran will be free. 

Ali Mostofi

//www.alimostofi.com

مازیار جان

این جور که تو جمع بندی کردی که میشه همهء آمریکائی ها که قربونت برم!

«گردن سرخ ها و آشغال سفید ها و کارگر های طبقه پائین! سیاه ها و مکزیکی ها هم که جزو طبقهء آخری اند»!

پس کی باقی موند که دوست داشتنی باشه؟  (-:

Maziar

 The old generation of Americans had some value, class and dignity, they were like the Europeans of today, but the new generation of Americans are one of the most rude, un-cultured, fake, self-obsorbed, materialistic degenerate group of people I know. Most Americans below the age of 40 are the things I stated above, and America's youth is getting worse generation by generation.

Btw, would be surprised by how many of these Americans are rednecks, they're diff not a small minority, though the ghetto blacks and the Americanized wannabe-black Hispanics are the most annoying.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

 "I'd rather be hated for w

VPK / mash Ghanbar

VPK,

Your problem is easily fixed by asking NIAC not to send you any emails from certain individuals that you do not care for, and why.  That will actually be a way for you to project your opinion on the next round of selections for board, etc.

mash Ghanbar,

The Iranian-American community is a lot LARGER than all of the opposition groups.  NIAC has taken the lead and unified a very large segment of the Iranian-American community.  Unifying the Iranian-American community is more important to NIAC than to unify a handful of fragmented opposition groups that constantly fight amongst themselves.  NIAC is focusing on goals that are common to all Iranian-Americans such as freedom for Iran / human rights in Iran.

رضا و آذر خوب صحبت کردن

پسر بیلی گراهام بیغ بیغه ... !

so where is the fear factor ?

NO it has no place in their daily lives and minds.

Americans are the most loveable peoples on earth minus the RED NECKS,WHITE TRASH and the BLUE COLLARS.

Some may ask about the Blacks and hispanics ...

they're mixed in the blue collar crowds.          Maziar

MM

Just curious here

What has NIAC done in terms of gathering the opposition members and forming a united front? If RP and Company have misrably failed in doing this, what lessons can they learn from NIAC so they can change their ways and go all the way to the finish line. Defining Freedom and Human rights as a goal, really doesn't take that much of an ingenuinty! Pretty much every opposition group's agenda have been the same! Knowing very well that they can not practically accomodate a regime change so easily.

 What has get together an impressive bunch of academic honks has gotten Iran and Iranians , In terms that you describe, namely the betterment of their lives and such?

I am just curious. No pun intended:)

Of course, they should fear Islam

I'm also scared of Islam and I'm a moslem.

MM

NIAC is the most powerful Iranian American lobby. Yes they have got an impressive group. 

Personally I do not like mixing religion with politics. This is specially important for Iranians. Because due to our national mistake in 1979 we are associated with Islam. People already steroetype us so why making it worse.

Mr. Aslan has every right to his religion. But I don't feel comfortable with him as the face of NIAC. I recently got several officasl NIAC emails from him. Now imagine a secular person like me does not like to see him as the standard bearer. In addition to me there are many other non Muslims Iranians. According to Wikipedia only 40% of Iranian Americans are Muslim. Therefore having an outspoken Islam proponent as their representative.

I am afraid NIAC is making a big strategic mistake here. It fuels its opponent's charges and alienates secular Iranians. I want to see a powerful Iranian lobby. Therefore my advise is that of a friend. 

Darius Kadivar

I have done my growing already and know who I am - sorry, but your condescending remark does not affect me. 

It is NIAC's position to define who Iranian-Americans are (not even French-Iranians), and we are many of various ethnicities/religions as well as political backgrounds.  However, it is NIAC's position to define a goal as freedom/human rights for Iran rather than regime change, because then the question always arises; regime change to what? and, that is when all the Iranian-type spitting/pissing contests start.  And, I can offer you many times in the past when NIAC has been very vocal in objecting to the state of human rights in Iran.

Reza Pahlavi and his followers have come a long way since I joined IC a while ago, but you all have a long way to go in trying to unite the opposition towards a united front against IRI. And, from what I have seen so far, you want everyone to join monarchism, rather than a united front against IRI.

And, please do not put a few hundred links as your reply, since I am more action-oriented and all I have heard (FROM EVERYBODY) is talk, talk and more talk.  I called on RP to organize a meeting of all opposition heads to find a common denominator cohesive force and chart a path towards freedom in Iran, and in reply, all I have heard is more speeches.

PS, we ALL have more growing up to do.

Halah Khodeh Hendyah Racist Hastaand :

Just look at the Cast System and the Untouchables ...

It didn't stop them to have a Democracy nevertheless ... 

again thanks to the British who tought them all about running an Administration.

And English is their official Administrative Language too ... 

VPK - just my point...

that someone may not like one or two members, but overall they have put together a very impressive group of Iranian-Americans as well as Americans with prestigeous credentials to work toward betterment of the lives of Iranian-Americans. 

Sorry that bio-links are not working from IC, but you can get to them from //www.niacouncil.org/site/PageServer?pagename=About_staff_board.

MM Jaan then why don't we ever hear THEM on these major issues?

GROW UP !

The Question in Not Who is a member of NIAC ...

There are many good people like you who are but How this Organization defines it's Priorities and Political Stance !

I never Even claimed unlike most of their detractors that Trita Parsi, Reza Aslan or Houman Majd are Bad Evil People ...

I simply said that I don't have the same Agenda or Vision for Tomorrows Iran

That is Where My PRoblem Resides with this Organization and this has nothing to do with What They Like to Drink at their Cocktail Parties on Capitol Hill ! 

Mageh Dar Bareyeh Gorbooneh Saligheh Dareem Harf Meezaneem ?

If So Please Forward me the adresse of Aslan, Parsi and Majd's Tailors ...

I would also like to dress Impeccably like them in the future ...

Again ... GROW UP ! 

And besides I am more in Line with the likes of Azar Nafisi and Abbas Milani or Rudi Bakhtiar neither of whom are Members of NIAC but who have been systematically been under attack by many of their members or sympathizers ...

So Like the French Say:

Qui Se Ressemblent, S'Assemblent ... 

For what it's worth, Gandhi expressed contempt for Blacks...

//www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2419

I don't think that makes Gandhi any less of an admirable human being  -- only flawed, like everyone.