Arts & Culture

MPD

Your point is well taken, however, it's important to call a distortion and misrepresentation for what it is :)

It's one thing to argue and debate on facts in good faith, it's something totally different to act unreasonably, and in an ornery manner!

How ironic!

"Fights Break Out In a Blog About Rumi"

A Friendly Advice To jalaledin99

I have read almost all of the back and forth discussions between you and other commentators regarding the background of Rumi, and whether he was Persian, Iranian, etc.

One thing that is quite clear is this: Your knowledge of the Persian language is either extremely limited, or more likely, non-existent! Some of the commentators had their entire comments directed towards you in Persian, and you never responded to them - Others, had portions of their comments in Persian, and your responses were totally out of place!

My suggestion is that if you really want people to take you seriously, at the very least, you owe it to yourself to have some Proficiency, if not Mastery, of the Persian language when talking about someone like Rumi - A great Poet whose entire body of work is almost all in Persian!

Some 'humility' is called for here - For someone who may not even speak the Persian language, let alone read and write it properly, to claim such an expertise on things Persian - Especially, on one of its greatest Poets ever, The Great Mowlana!

Sir, You Have Much To Learn .. Indeed Much!

Or you could say Shakespeare was British

But created his masterpieces in English.

But seriously, when i see king lear or Hamlet, I enjoy them for what they are, and the last thing in my mind is that the person who wrote it was from England or britain. He could have been from Tanzania for all I care....

......

OK! Wikipedia is junk.....what you said is not junk......Ok......I got it!

Sorry I got brain-washed by Wikipedia!

Why do we call Shakespeare English?

We call Shakespeare English because he was born, worked and died in a country called England which existed then and exists now, and where they spoke and still speak Engish. So only England can legitimately 'claim' him as their 'own'.  Not at all comparable to the situation of Rumi. And you know this, Jalaledin. Deep inside you do.

None of the countries being bandied about here existed at the time of Rumi (Iran not in the current form OR in the form of the ancient empire(s). Iranians, Afghans, Turks from Turkey too, they can all claim him as their Persian language poet/mystic if they feel like it. Why not? There's enough of him to go around.

Some of you sound a little silly. But this one is my personal favorite:

So, find your own scholar, poet or scientist who was born IN Afghanistan (when it came to existence) and leave us the hell alone!
Persian ALWAYS means " I R A N I A N"! Get used to it!

Solitude, Persian was the court language of Moghul India.

Just saying.

------

If Rumi is reading some parts of this discussion from the Great Beyond, he is surely barfing in his grave.

So silly.

جناب جلال دامت برکات

مایم برات یه ضرب المثل شهرستانی داریم: پز عالی‌، جیب خالی‌.

Dear Jalal...

I'm out of here. And I hope you understand, and more importantly forgive those who used some harsh words.

visit....//www.ipinst.org/

yolanda

why should i complain to wikipedia?  if i dont like something there, i can just delete it and fill it with any junk i want!   ;0)

......

Hi! jalaledin99,

   Maybe you shoud complain to Wikipedia......

"Here is a famous saying from my country" too!

Let me tell you one from ours, though:

" If you see a bunch of fools fighting over a dead stallion, don't just stand there. Get in to the fight. You never know it might come alive."

visit....//www.ipinst.org/

Here is a famous saying from my country

Hopefully some of you will be able to take heed!

"If you see a stallion walking down the street and it doesn't belong to you, let it continue to walk."

Our Beloved Sheikh "Sa'adi" ...

Had This Famous Saying

خر عیسی گرش به مکه برند، چو باز گردد، همان خر باشد

I'm Sure That All Of My Persian-Speaking Friends On this Thread Know Exactly What I'm Talking About

R D

P.S. Yolanda, Thank You For Your Comment

Nigora Holova, Tajik Singer

A change of topic, and freedom from futility or in Farsi Dari “Aab dar haavan koobidan.” We should have heeded to Red Wine’s message. Here silence is the best policy as reason has failed. Friends, enjoy this song which was posted by few people on IC sometime ago. She refers to our Iranian or Persian Sufi poet Hafez in the last verse.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucn5_UdiHr4

Iranian does not equal Persian

R2,

Are Iranian Kurds Persian?  How about the Arabs in Ahvaz?  Balouch?  Azeri?  Turkomans?  You see, you can't use Persian and Iranian interchangebly.  It just not true.   

If you want, you can use Tajik and Persian interchangebly.   The debate isn't so much about his ethnicity, it is about his national origin.  Like Ahura said, there was no country called "Iran" 800 years ago, it was the Khwarzemian empire.  Using medieval standards you can call him an ethnic Persian/Tajik who was Khwarezemian.  If you prefer modern standards, call him an ethnic Persian/Tajik Afghan.  

Was Shakespeare Canadian? Was he American?  The etymology of American/Canadian precedes Shakespeare.  Why don't we use those terms?  Why do we call Shakespeare English?  Maybe because that is the modern day country that represents his place of origin?  Using the same logic, which modern day country represents Rumis place of origin?  Using your logic it should be Mexico! 

It is a sheer lie to say that "Iran" was used to describe medieval Balkh.  That word was never used by the natives to describe their national/cultural/political origin.  

Maybe in places like Shiraz and Isfahan, the word "Iran" was used colloquially.  Of course, there is only a scant amount of proof to substantiate that claim.  On the other hand, there isnt a shred of proof that shows people in Balkh used that word to identify themselves culturally/politically.

According to Encyclopedia Iranica, the medieval primary sources  used the word Khorasan or Khwarezimian empire to describe Rumis place of birth.  Medieval Balkhis called themselves Khorasanis or Khwarezemis, not "Iranian".  Show me evidence from that encyclopedia that proves me wrong.  I don't want sourceless articles written by 9 year olds on wikipedia.

As far as nationality goes, Rumi is either Khwarezemi or Afghan.  Ethnically you can call him Persian or Tajik.  But that is it.  There really isnt much to debate, just like there isnt a debate over whether or not Shakespeare is English or Irish.  If someone said Shakespeare was Irish or Scottish he would be laughed out of the room.  If its not ok for an Irishman to claim Shakespeare why is it ok for an Iranian to claim Rumi?

Cheers

......

Thank you, RD, for your post.....it is crystal clear to me.......I read a lot about Rumi.......they all say the same thing that Rumi was born in Balkh, Afghanistan....he was a Persian poet......not even one person calls him Afghan poet..........

I do hope when peace returns to Afghanistan, the government will promote tourism in Balkh......Ballk is such an interesting place that a lot of VIPs were from there like Rumi, Avicenna,.......Zoroaster died there......apparently Muslims, buddhists, and Zoroastrians all landed in Balkh.

For All Those Interested ...

I am providing the following links and information for all those who are still unclear (!!!) about the terms Iran and Persia, and also regarding what Rumi is referred to as:

Iran: 

The name Iran has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was widely known as Persia. Both Persia and Iran are used interchangeably in cultural contexts; however, Iran is the name used officially in political contexts. The name Iran is a cognate of Aryan, and means "Land of the Aryans".

Furthermore,

Rumi:

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muḥammad Balkhī, also known as Jalāl ad-Dīn Muḥammad Rūmī, and popularly known as Mowlānā  but known to the English-speaking world simply as Rumi (30 September 1207 – 17 December 1273), was a 13th-century Persian  poet, jurist, theologian, and Sufi mystic.

Again, Rumi Was A 13th Century Persian Poet, Jurist, Theologian, And Sufi Mystic -

Now, You want To Call Him Persian, Or Iranian, It Really Doesn't Matter - As Indicated above, Both Persia And Iran Are Used Interchangeably In Cultural Contexts -

Sincerely,

R D

P.S. If you need additional information, click on the links above for Iran and Rumi; the excerpts provided above are at the very top of  the links -

If at the end of the day, you are still unclear, you need to sincerely ask God to open your eyes regarding the Truth - We humans just can't help you anymore :) - !

khwarezemian or afghan

maziar,

Rumi left Balkh because of the Mongol Invasion, not because of his personal "taughts and expressions".  It's true that "Afghanistan" didn't exist 800 years ago, but neither did "Iran".  If you study middle eastern history, then you'll realize that the word "Iran" was introduced in 1935. Irans borders were delineated within the last 100-200 years.  Every time you use the word "Iran" or "Iranian", it can only be in reference to the modern country "Iran" whose political and cultural history never included the city of Balkh or Balkh province.  Using medieval standards, Rumi was Khwarezemian.  Using modern standards, Rumi was an Afghan.  Unless you can find a map that shows Balkh in Iran, you can't say he was Iranian.  That would be like saying Shakespeare is Canadian or American.

Cheers

JD 99

I was going to give you some small Persian his.101

But R2- already done that,adding that Rumi because of his taughts and expression was not real welcomed to any place he traveled at his time so he was considered of being  the FIRST IRANIAN REFUGEE and ghonye was his last as he became ill the final resting place.

P.s many year ago a french lady offered me his CD with a note : from a great persian thinker to.....

Maziar

Yes. He is ours. We love

Yes. He is ours. We love him. We are proud of him. And the best thing to do, as Khar said, is to share it with the world. Let him be for all human-beings.

Depends where you draw the lines

If you draw the lines on the land, then yes he was born in present day Afghanistan. In future Afghanistan may get divided and northern part get a different name such as Hazaran, or that part of it get invaded by Tajik. Then Molana is born yet in another country.

If however you draw the lines to be the Persian language and culture, then he was a gift from Persian speaking people to the world.

Having said that, I used to be a big fan of Molana when I was younger. I still greatly enjoy the poems, but his philosophy of detachment from this world and search for the mirage doesn't do it for me anymore.

jalaledin99

دوستان عزیز،هم وطنان گرامی‌،لطفا گول نخورید این شخص نمیتواند اهل افغانستان باشد ! حتی بنده مطمئنم که این جناب.. هیچ چیز از کشور بزرگ و تاریخی افغانستان نمیداند، نگاه به اسمش کنید که چطور اشتباه رجیسترات کرده است ؟ ایشان حتی نمیتواند به فارسی‌ بخواند !!

لطفا نگذارید که این اشخاص ..به این شکل اسم شیخ بزرگ صوفیان را لکه دار کنند.

احتمالا این هم یکی‌ دیگر از افرادی است که به این نحو میخواهند مشکل ساز شوند و ما را از اهدافمان دور نگاه دارند،اینها جوان هستند و بیهوش.. افتاده در یک بن بست روحی‌ و فکری !

سپاسگزارم از توجه شما...

پاینده باد ایران، جاوید ایرانیان.

jalaledin99

My friends below have pretty much responded to you - My suggestion is for you to read their comments, especially the links that Ahura has provided :)

Again, I sincerely hope that things are clear for you by now :) ?? !

R D

.....

I read a lot about Rumi and his poetry in English......they all referred him as Persian poet.......no one has called him Afghan poet....yes, he was born in present-day Afghanistan.....like HG said...Afghanistan did not exist 800 years ago when Rumi was born in 1207.........I checked Afghan poets on Wikipedia.....Rumi is not listed there:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Afghan_poets

This thread is getting very interesting and educational! Yeah!

I believe Afghans, Iranians, and Tajiks are able to read Rumi's poetry, right? They are the lucky people.....I have to read translated poems, not the original Rumi poetry....that is a bummer!

...

...

ey baba jalal jan,

ey baba jalal jan, afghanistan did not gain its independence until 1747.  back in the day of rumi, there was no afghanistan.  if you could tell rumi right now that he's from afghanistan, he would say "say what?"  to boot, the town he was born in (close to balkh, afg) is actually in tajikistan.  do a little research in history of balkh, afghanistan and rumi and evertything will be clear.  btw, the mayas are not from mexico. :)

cheers and salamati

encyclopedia iranica

Thanks r2d2 for the clarification.  I am not trying to disrespect anyone, but I do think that Iranians are so proud and ethnocentric that they are willing to believe historical inaccuracies in order to boost their own ego.  Rumi is a perfect example.  I watched your video.  It is great, but I don't think it has the same level of authority as this article:

//www.iranica.com/articles/balk-town-and-prov...

This is serious scholarship.  It lays out the historical record pretty clearly.  If you study it closely, then you will see that Rumi was from Afghanistan.  At most you can say he was a Tajik or Persian speaking Afghan.  But you can't say he was Iranian. 

Cheers

Persian Khwarezmian Empire Ruled Afghanistan

When Jalaleddin Mohammad Balkhi (known as Mawlavi or Rumi) was born in 1207 in Greater Balkh (Bakhtarzamin), in the village of Wakhsh (a small town located at the river Wakhsh in what is now Tajikistan), Khwarezmian Dynasty was ruling Persia which included Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Bahaulddin Walad, Rumi’s father, moved his family from Balkh and finally settled in Konya escaping the impending Mongol invasion. The historical evidence verifies Rumi’s identity as a Persian mystic poet and a Moslem theologian.

Please refer to the following links for more comprehensive information on this nationality dispute:

Rumi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Khwarezmid Empire

Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia 

From Ancient Persia to Contemporary Iran - History of Iran Timeline 

History of Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jalaledin99

If you study the rich Persian Culture and History, you would see that there were great regions around Iran (Persia) in the past, but now are independent states - All of these regions are referred to by Scholars and Historian as Greater Iran (or Iran-e Bozorg)

These regions included, but were not limited to: Parts of present day Afghanistan, Tajikestan, Uzbakestan, etc., etc. - In many of these regions, not only the natives speak Persian (Farsi) today, but also have a great love and admiration for the Persian Culture - By celebrating events such as Now-ruz (The New Year), Mehregan, etc.  

The following is a video that depicts the extent of the Greater Iran in the past - To watch the video, click on the link below:

The Greater Iran (Iran-e Bozorg) Video

I hope that has clarified things for you :) - !

R D

merriam webster dictionary

1 : a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan.

Dear Solitude,

Where does it say that Balkh is in Iran or is corresponding closely to ancient Persia?  If anything, Bactrians have more a claim to Rumi than Iranians or Persians.  We use modern day standards to judge history.  Using modern day standards Rumi was/is Afghan.  As you probably know, Ayatollah Khomeini was an Iranian poet.  You can have him as your literary giant!

:0)