COMPARISON

vildemose

You are probably right about the West. It is probably wishful thinking on my part. On the other hand I don;t think the West was prepared for the Green Movement. It is partially the job of us in the West to let everyone know Iranians hate the IRI. As the IRI gets more brutal and more difficult on the nuclrar issue the West will have second thoughts. Iranians both inside and outside of Iran need to let the West know how unpopular the regime is. I don't expect or want a military intervention. Just that they stop supporting and propping up the Mullahs that is all.

You already see the battle of propaganda has begun. The IRR apologists are out everywhere. They are trying to convince people that Iranians don't want regime change. There are high power ones like Flynt and Hillary Mann Leverett who are doing IRI's bidding.

This gives me the idea that we can help on this side. We should present our side so that the West is not just exposed the the apologists.

VPK

VPK and Vildemose

Do you really think Israel even has a say in what the U.S. wants?!

Israel is just a state created by the Americans and the British for the purpose of destabilization of the mid East.  Sort of like how they created Lebanon with its Christian and Muslim population and a president and a prime minister of different faiths.  And when they saw Christians and Muslims getting along, they started activities to have these people go at each other's throats.

VPK: I'm not so sure, if the

VPK: I'm not so sure, if the power that be have decided to let go of the IRI, just yet...remains to be seen.

IRR stability

They are destabilizing themselves. I agree with vildemose about the profits. But they can make profits after a regime change. IRR is getting Israel nervous and that is changing the balance. I think the West will breath a sigh of relief when IRR is gone. They won't have to listen to Israel's non stop threats.

Niloufar

the hejab issue is cultural. throughout the region you will see some
similar morality police to varying degrees.

Then why is it that 80% of women  in my family in Iran did not wear hijab? I don't mind if some people want to. But it is not a requirement of our culture. In the US Baseball is part of the culture. But they don't require people to go to games . You are confusing "part of culture" to "requirement of culture". Poetry is just as much a part of our culture but we don't require people to go to "Shab eh Shar".

i believe that most iranian
men, deep inside, want to see their own wives covered when venturing
out in public areas.

• First: I don't agree with you.
• Second: What about those who don't want their wives covered? Don't they have any rights. Why is it that left gets so angry if France say no Burka but is fine when VF requires hijab? This is hypocrisy.
• Third: this is amazing coming from a woman. How about what the women want? Are they slaves to men?

i
trust iranians to protect iran's interests more than i would americans
or israelis.

Who said anything about US or Israel running Iran? You must be mistaking me for other people.  I agree with you I don't want the US; UK; Israel; Russia or China running Iran. That is why IRI needs to go. They are practically inviting a US / Israel intervention. With a responsible regime it is much easier to keep the US out. 

NP: $400,000 million is a

NP: $400,000 million is a drop in a bucket. It's nothing and only indicates that they really are not serious about  getting rid of  Islamic Republic as they were with the Shah's regime.

and why should they, while it makes them unparalleled profits for years to come.

As if the IRI needs deestablizing?? You are either willingly ignorant or extremeley naive.

Omid

Omid, a poet whose father was executed in 1367 and whose mother is in jail today was put on trial.  He is a poet :

امروز
صبحانه نخوردم
شعری نگفتم
و چای که همین‌جور دم می‌کشد روی اجاق
بوی مرداب می‌گیرد
بندگی روزهای سرد می‌کنم
پنجره آزارم می‌دهد
و باز منتظرت می‌ایستم...؛

//www.roozonline.com/persian/news/newsitem/article////107/-8bfaaa5fb7.html

Fair

i agree with you about the hostile attitude of the regime, but how is the US irrelevant to the civil war issue? there is a $400 million programme funded by us congress designed only for the purpose of destabilising iran.

Yes Fariba, it is very timely

to call out the increasingly fascistic nature of this regime, and thank you for doing so.

-Fair

BehroozAzarin

So now west will push both side into a civil war. Of Course, regime
change using Iranians to killing each other is better than west getting
involved now. They will get involved when the pray is exhausted and
weak and there is minimum risk. Until then, they will be howling in our
backyard and front door waiting.  I guess some people never learn even
after it happens over and over. Frankly, if these demonstrations would
have started peacefully, it would have probably stayed peaceful, but
that was not and is not the plan. 

The IRI leadership has served its usefulness to the West. Now they are making more trouble than is worth. So they are going to go. I don't think they expected the rage in Iran. But it is working for them so of course they will fan it.That part I agree.

I don't agree that the West will go into Iran post regime change. Why should they? They want resources and money. It is much easier to get a new leadership to make Iran business friendly. The West however knows not to go in with troops. That is why Iranians need to be vigilant in forming the new regime. It will happen so we may as well get a good one! No more VF or prescreened candidates. Real elections and modernity. The west just wants oil; gas; pipelines and a stopping nuclear stuff.

The good news is that they will pay premium dollars or euros for them. We should use the opportunity to milk them specially over the nuclear issue. Like build us a whole bunch of refineries; factories; renewable in return for a limited freeze.

Actually, I am more and

Actually, I am more and more convinced that the regime in Tehran is becoming more and more fascistic in methodology and violent in dealing with its opponents or anyone who defies its rule.   This comparison was not only right but timely.

 Let's never forget what they have done in the course of the last 32 years and today :

             //www.roozonline.com/persian/news/newsitem/article/2010/january/31//-8c4607785e.html

 //www.roozonline.com/persian/news/newsitem/article/2010/january/31//-72e0567559.html

Vildemose

Thank you for furthering this very important point. AN's brand of fascism is very dangerous, and despite some people's weak attempts to distance this fascist movement from others, the similarities are striking.

-Fair

The US is irrelevant to this discussion

I can go on and on about why or where you are wrong and it won't matter.  We are discussing the similarities between the IRI regime and that of Nazi Germany. If you want to believe the US is expansionist, imperialist, Nazi, racist, whatever, that is fine and I don't care, we are not talking about the US. We are talking about Iran. 

Now if you are concerned about civil war in Iran, you only have one place to blame- and that is the government in Tehran. They are the ones who have built a fortress around themselves, shut out the Iranian people, and have declared war on the people of Iran, clearly, unequivocally, on national TV for the whole world to see. Once by the Islamic Fuehrer himself, and once last week by the head of the Guardian council. These are the ones talking about "war" and "fighting", not the other side. So are these people western agents? No. But they are anti iranian agents, and are fully responsible for all loss of life and livelihood that follows their mistaken decisions.

-Fair

VPK

yes i agree with your last point. pls see my last comment to Fariba.  i often call the basijis fascist thugs. they are. and this does reflect on the regime because they are organised by the regime (unlike say the fascist skinhead thugs in england). but this is typical of dictators/autocrats. it is fascist with a small f, in its more common usage rather than academic. 

the hejab issue is cultural. throughout the region you will see some similar morality police to varying degrees. i believe that most iranian men, deep inside, want to see their own wives covered when venturing out in public areas. many women also support it. we abhor it. we are a minority. even in the 1970s black chadoris were everywhere. we used to call them kalaq siyah. they took over the country VPK.

rest assured that i am no regime supporter. but pls bear in mind that to me, the iri is not the only one with dirty hands and some issues are above the regime at the national interest level. while iran is being threatened on an existential level, we must pull together. i trust iranians to protect iran's interests more than i would americans or israelis.

this is not because i have some red line when it comes to 'foreigners' talking about iran. outsiders can make good judges on some issues. it's just that i have seen america and israel in action. they do not really believe in cooperation or looking after someone else's interests. quite the opposite.

Fair Here's an article on

Fari: Here's an article on Mohammad Ali Ramin: He is the angel of death and could very well be a Nazi. He is Ahamdinejad architect of Mahdi government/caliphate.

Who is Mohammad-Ali Ramin and why should we pay very close attention to what he has to say?

He is what Joseph Goebbels was to Hitler. He is the brain behind "Thug-In-Chief" Ahmadinejad, his hardline presidential advisor.

He is the editor-in-chief of Emamat monthly, a founder of the Association of the Islamic Path in Europe, and director of the Holocaust seminar in Tehran.

Born in 1954, it is an eerie irony, that he was brought up and educated in the 'Vaterland' ; only after  completing his major in Mechanical Engineering and after founding the "Islamische Gemeinschaft in Clausthal e.V." (Clausthal is an hour's drive from Hannover, Germany) as well as other unspecified 'political activism', did he move his wife and three children back to his native home, the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Apart from bringing about the global Dar-al-Islam, his passion and academic work is dedicated to the revision of the Holocaust 'Myth'. Ramin was the one who initiated the idea of the "relocation of Israel" and also the idea, that "Holocaust is a myth". Ahmadinejad was just the messenger.

//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/22/AR2006032202168.html

 His pciture below. Blonde guy sitting next to Ahmadinezad.

//iranian.com/main/image/95983

As one said once before,

As one said once before, "IT is not so much the book, but what one decides to take from the book".  Here is a good example. One reads a 700 page book and this is what she takes from it.  There was no need to waste so much time.  Of Course, there will be good and bad similarities between regimes, calculated or not. 

Fair wrote,

War of aggression in Iraq.

this is not an expansionist war since the US is not interested in holding Iraqi territory, in fact it is seeking the quickest way out that it can. Hardly the same as Nazi and Islamic expansionism.

Global hegemonist projections of political and military power.

US doesn't aim to occupy and hold other countries as part of its territory. Again, quite different than Nazi Germany.

Wrong. US has occupied number of countries and Islands that are now part of US territories. In addition, US has occupied number of others all over the world and control them through US military bases in them and policies and orders dictated from Washington.   US is not looking for liabilities.  US is after resources, world domination through military, political and economical control.  Why more liabilities when they can put a pro west government who will do the job for them? That is nothing new. That is what Romans and we did 2500 years ago. You live, you learn. Compare the similarities!

Incarceration of tens of thousands of citizens without due process, with documented cases of sexual abuse, torture and murder.

Well, much of the above statement existed in specially US more than any other country in the past and today, but as always mostly for minorities.  That is why in US democrocy and freedom also comes in different colors for different groups.  If US was divided and was in such a turmoil under similar threats, pressure and sanctions as Iran has been and US had as many traitors and selfish individuals as we do, they would be a lot more violent than IRI.  All we need is to look at history.

//dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/12/02/the-world%E2%80%99s-least-powerful-man-the-obama-puppet-by-paul-craig-roberts/

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan,

You are right, but look at the options. External enemies and internal corrupt Ex cons have become the messenger of democrocy and freedom, same sweet words US has used to attack Iraq and Afghanistan and many others.  Doesn't it make you suspicious when it all accelerated with Ahmadinejad's attempt to cut corruption or with his stance against the Israeli genocide and western threats?   I am against violence and I think one should use his head, but hypothetically speaking if violence was the only way to democrocy and freedom, a professional sniper with a night vision and a silencer could have achieved much more by taking down Rafsanjani, jannati and their types instead of blowing up civilians here and there or even worse, a civil war.  But now many in public have turned to  sitting ducks with a green target sign on their forehead and that is not an option either. 

So now west will push both side into a civil war. Of Course, regime change using Iranians to killing each other is better than west getting involved now. They will get involved when the pray is exhausted and weak and there is minimum risk. Until then, they will be howling in our backyard and front door waiting.  I guess some people never learn even after it happens over and over. Frankly, if these demonstrations would have started peacefully, it would have probably stayed peaceful, but that was not and is not the plan.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=akm3nYN8aG8

Yes we are talking past each other, because

you are the one who wanted to change the subject, not me. You can run away from the issue as much as you want, it will still be there staring you in the face. You wanted to divert attention from the very important similarities that Fariba pointed out between the two fascist regimes by pointing out differences. Then you and I focused on how relevant/applicable these differences are, which I believe I showed that they are not. Then you as usual brought America into it, once again, ignoring the very core of the issue- how Iran's regime resembles the Nazi and other fascist regimes. You resort to anything to avoid this issue at all costs, because you know you cannot address it.

Your argument of this comparison being possible to be " levied against the other nations I've just named" just doesn't fly either. Simply because you have named one or two countries, tried (and by the way failed) to apply the same analogy to them, doesn't mean you can just trivialize that analogy as a result. By that logic, nobody can ever compare any oppressive system to the Nazi system ever again. I can see why you and IRI rapists would like to have such a situation prevail. But you will fail miserably as you fool nobody (except maybe your own brown shirt basijis)

So let us say that the US and Israel are also comparable to Nazi Germany in the regards you have said (which they are not, but let's say so anyway). All you have proven is that these two countries also resemble the Nazi regime, not that this resemblance can be applied to anybody, so making such a connection is universally invalid. Can you draw the analogy to Nazis in India, South Korea, Sweden, Phillipines, Costa Rica, Malaysia, and dozens of other countries? Absolutely not.

So the analogy and comparison stand as such, unchallenged or not disproven by you or anyone else. You cannot discount these as simply a "list of grievances", since they are the exact same "grievances" that the modern world has against fascists and Nazis (of whom there are many today as well). Your last line of defense against this comparison (as usual) is that "by this measure America is Nazi too, and since this is not the case, then IRI is also not Nazi". Forget about serious academic scrutiny, even the most basic superficial academic reading of your argument will uncover this huge flaw. The flaw recently repeated by former IRGC commander Rahim Safavi who said "serial killings happen everywhere, what is the big deal".

And of course, your usual labeling of people who post things that are not to your liking as pro Zionist and unpatriotic. Are you saying that Fariba is pro Zionist and unpatriotic? Where is your proof?

Or do you just give yourself the right to just declare your opponents as foreign agents and declare war on them like this guy:

//iranian.com/main/2010/jan/hossein-hamed...

So much for academic scrutiny. But then what should one expect from a regime whose cabinet has a bunch of fake and plagiarized degrees- including its minister of science.

-Fair

Niloufar

The US military is bad at occupation and nation building. It is good at blowing things up. It is very good at taking out any missiles or other weapons that may close the Hormozd straights. Naval was is not the same as guerrilla war.

Also if you dislike bullies how abut the IRR thugs? They are bullies. How about the hijab morality police? Maybe you oppose them but I just don't see you writing much in opposing them.

VPK

the us military is vastly superior to the iranian one. that is clear. i have questioned the effectiveness of the us military not its superiority. that may be reflective of my wishes too. i do not like to see an international bully succeed. however, there is also the other little point that you ignore: the us military usually fails to deliver unless it is dealing with a tiny grenada. in protracted conflicts, the us military has little to show for its costs in recent decades. and there have been plenty of those. most unfortunately.

So much in common.... yes, indeed

Replace the IRI with any of the former communist countries and you get the same common grounds, more or less.

@Veiled Prophet of K., your remark is sadly true.  Furthermore, I would add that  European AN supporters form a rather bizarre coalition. Not only "I don't like America, so I support AN" extreme leftists but also Jew haters. Just as much as the extreme right wingers, those who adhere to "Kinder, Küche und Kirche" values.  

Niloufar

1) I believe the majority of Iranian people are against IRI. But there is no democratic way to express their desires. The elections are a joke. The candidates are pre-screened; votes rigged. Plus anyone getting elected it a puppet of VF. IRI is a military dictatorship. Peaceful change is impossible. Taking it out requires a major revolution and many people may get killed. People who try are put in front of the firing squad or hanged. That is why we have not seen change yet.

2) I do not see you being objective.  I see you mixing your wishes in your comments. One particularly obvious place is over US military supremacy. You frequently dismiss the obvious fact that the US military is vastly superior to any including IRI.

Fariba

i agreed with you on the basijis in my first post here i think. they are similar to nazi brown shirts.

VPK

thanks for taking the trouble. i mean that. but i think you are not reading me close enough or i have failed to give the right impression. i do not support iri in any sense. i am an exile. but i do support the people of iran, not because i think they have made the right choices, but because i respect their choices and have some understanding of our history. if the majority in iran are willing to put up with the iri, i will bide my time and accept it until the time comes for people like us and our ideas to be accepted by the majority. you, like some others here, may believe that the maority are against the iri. you may be right, but i do not see a majority taking effective action yet. until they decide to do so, i feel it rather pointless and hypocritical for me to join the 'lengesh kon' crowd of exiles. rather, i prefer to take a more objective view of the situation and try and acknowledge some of the more positive aspects of events. and here is the crunch: i do not think you or i or anyone else here in this forum is any more iranian than khamenei or ahmadinejad.

it has nothing to do with usa or israel. i judge those 2 countries on their own merits. luckily i have the freedom to do that in this forum. 

coming back to the subject at hand: i am trying to discuss this issue in an objective manner without allowing my own wishes to blind me to certain realities concerning nazism and fascism. if you read that as 'support for iri' then that is not my fault. but i see two rogue states that are expansionist, violent and controlled by corporations in many ways. they fit the fascist category closer than iri.

Peace

I mentioned briefly about

I mentioned briefly about the injustice towards ethnic and religious minorities. I have said that many times in previous artilces. But I do mention it briefly here:  

"The Islamic Republic targeted the Mujahedin, secular leftists, and members of the Bahai faith, ethnic Kurds, and even many of the progressive outspoken clerics such as the late Grand Ayatollah Montazeri."

I could not cover all the points, true but that was not my job. You can't say everything in one article.  I merely brought up some important facts about the two regimes. There is a world of difference between the two. No point in denying it. However, when it comes to the use of paramilitary forces and using and indoctrinating the young from the rural areas one can see much in common.  I saw it with my own eyes in fact immediately after the Revolution, I was in Shiraz and you could see how the young Pasdars were being recruited.  Most do come from the villages. Just like in Germany. 

Hitler was an expansionist and wanted to rule Europe under the Germanic ideal. The IRI has been meddling in other countries but they are not able to go much beyond that because the world is very different now.  Nevertheless, let's not forget that even if Saddam invaded Iran, it was the Shiites of Iran who were poking into the Iraqi affairs. Even after the Iraq invasion by the US forces, Iran has been playing a major role.  Iran wants to become a regional power.

Hitler was a racist. we can't say that about any of the IRI officials.

The brutality in which the SS and SA embarked on was very different too.  However, we have seen similar trends especially after the elections.  Kahrizak didn't just come into the picture in a matter of one night. From all accounts they had been preparing for this long before the June elections. There are also other detention centers in remote places where torture and abuse are a daily occurance.

The two regimes share a common ground in the fact that both hate intellectuals.  Hitler wanted and promoted his own types. The IRI has gone after the seuclar left, liberals, Melli-Mazhabi, academics who are not in line with the prevelant ideology (islamic) Hitler murdered many, the regime in Tehran has not gone to that extent, not that it is not capable but we also have to bear in mind that Germans are different from Iranians. Though, when you read these volumes, you see a lot of people (non-Jewish Germans) fighting with the Nazis and at the end being prosecuted and even executed.  Berlin University students are a very good example.  Many were put on trial and executed.

To Niloofar I say,  we can compare the situation in Iran under Ahmadi Nejad to many other places that tyranny and dictatorship rule and I consider myself a progressive ; however, let us not forget that even if we are against the US invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, what is going on in our own country is what matters at the moment.

I think Mr. Dabbashi even got that ! 

Niloufar

This weekend I took the time to go and read some of your writings on the web. I did this in an attempt to understand the mind of those who support the IRI. I gather that your politics are pretty must to the left. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know a lot of American leftists who are very angry at American behavior. In fact I think they have some very legitimate points: Nicaragua; Iraq; Guantanamo; the list is long. I don't like US messing with Iran any more than you do.

So I see why people want to see someone stand up to America. But I would hope that person is at least a little bit better instead of much worse. I mean taking side with the IRI gang is hard to justify. 

The logic of:

• Us does a lot of bad things (true).
• AN is against US (true)
• Therefore I support AN (false) 

Is just flat out wrong! They could both be wrong. The same goes with Israel. I don't like the treatment of Palestinians. But that does not make me support the IRI. People gave IRI its chance many times and it blew it. Their own actions have made it unquestionably obvious that they must go. So why do you support them?

Fair, at this point, we're

Fair, at this point, we're talking past each other. Where I establish differences, you purport similarities based on effect- however limited or stretched into forced accommodation- or you even go so far as hypothetical scenario.

Like I said, one can compare Nazis to anyone or anything someone perceives as negative. I used the example of the US. Yes, Niloufar, I could have easily used Israel. Or for that matter, China. It wasn't the exactness of comparison I was necessarily getting at; it was the actual limitation of the comparison process itself, I was trying to get across.

Quibbles over whether a nation commits present day atrocities to its own citizens or foreigners, or whether MRBMs can be used in a first strike capacity are beside the point. You can modify your comparisons infinitively, just for the sake of argument.

But like I said, if Fariba or your intent was to establish a historical analogy, I do not believe you have convincingly done so. All you're doing is presenting a list of grievances- many of which can be levied against the other nations I've just named- for which Godwin's Law was created, as a response to the popular conception of Nazi Germany and the moral fable so generated. It's a convenient means of expressing personal antipathy, and not much else. As stated previously, it doesn't stand up to serious academic scrutiny.

Of course, for those who subscribe to this low brow sort of stuff, such comparisons will always be forthcoming. But really, this is the sort of thing one expects from certain pro-Zionists, not Iranians professing any semblance of patriotism.

sargord

agree with most of your comments here, save for an academic point about race and religion: they are comparable when used as ideological underpinnings of a state. they are both used as tools for unifying a group against another. only in the case of religion, this does not necessarily have to be confrontational, while with race it does.

your point about the US is right on. you could also have mentioned israel too?

Not Quite- You can invoke Fair's law now

See what I mean? When all else fails, bring America into it, just like "Fair's law" stated. But then even that attempt fails for the most part:

War of aggression in Iraq.

Despite being one of the stupidest decisions and biggest blunders in US history, this is not an expansionist war since the US is not interested in holding Iraqi territory, in fact it is seeking the quickest way out that it can. Hardly the same as Nazi and Islamic expansionism.

Global hegemonist projections of political and military power.

I don't like imperialism either, but again, US doesn't aim to occupy and hold other countries as part of its territory. Again, quite different than Nazi Germany.

Incarceration of tens of thousands of citizens without due process, with documented cases of sexual abuse, torture and murder.

Not its own citizens. Detainees in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib etc. are not domestic rights issues, they are war crimes, for which the US is indeed guilty. Whereas Nazi Germany and IRI would do these things to their own citizens, who had no protection against such treatment unlike US citizens. So no comparison here either.

Armament spending on an unprecedented level in history.

Who says this makes you a Nazi? You are the one that brought up "massive arms buildup" as a characteristic of the Nazis, not me.

Belief in national supremacy.

That is just your perception, it is not written into the US constitution for example (unlike the IRI constitution which clearly states belief in supremacy of Islam over all other influences in all matters)

Historical record of racial genocide committed against indigenous populations in its wars of regional westward expansion.

Forced slave labor for centuries based on race.

Yes, when these were happening they were definitely comparable to Nazi behavior. But that ended 150 years ago, and the US society recognizes this openly, unlike the IRI which takes absolutely no responsibility for any wrongdoing it has ever done.

So as you can see, you really have no answer to Ms. Amini's comparisons other than to a)change the subject or b)try to bring America's crimes into it as well so that they cancel out IRI's crimes. Both these paths fail.  At the end of the day, it stands that IRI commits crimes and human rights violations against the Iranian people in a similar way that Nazi Germany and other fascist regimes did against their peoples. Until you can prove that any of Ms. Amini's statements are false, you really have no ground to stand on, and your attempts to minimize these very important truths are in vain.

-Fair

The author compares the IRI and Nazi's

without even mentioning the discrimination the Islamic Republic has made towards minorities?! Um HELLO, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, gender/sexual minorities... why not a word of this???

Not Necessary

I have always enjoyed reading Mrs. Amini's blogs. I must say, this one wasn't necessary.  What was the point? What was with the violent overthrow? what if violent occur, but overthrow doesn't?  what if Iran was attacked? Just as the 80's IRI is not going to fight two fronts. They will crush the opposition to concentrate on the foreign attacks and that means execution of tens of thousands from oppositions.   

I also find the actions of Zionist Israel and Neocon America much more similar to Nazi Germany, than the hardliner IRI.  Since we are comparing, compare the root of the problem then and now.  Weren't the problems then and now Zionists threats, control and expansion?

As for the most major Arab countries, they will never unite with Iran against west or even Israel. Iran knows that very well and doesn't count on their friendship and as Iran has said before, will take action against them and defend Iran in case of any attacks.