'مخالـفت' با عقیـده - 'احتـرام' به مخالـف


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'مخالـفت' با عقیـده - 'احتـرام' به مخالـف
by مسعود از امریکا
08-Apr-2009
 

دیروز، من متوجه شدم که یک بحث بسیار داغی بین دوستان بهایی از یک طرف، و اقای نور، که بابی می باشد، از طرفی دیگر، برپاست. متاسفانه، این بحث به پرخاش و توهین از دو طرف کشید. در این میان، سر دبیر این وب سایت، جهانشاه عزیز، هم به وسط کشیده شد، و در معرض حمله از دو طرف!! من گفتم که این قطعه کوتاه را بنویسم به امید این که ما ایرانی ها یادمان نرود که مخالفت با عقیده یک شخص، دلیل به بی احترامی، توهین، و متجاوز شدن به شخصیت او نمی باشد ... امیدوارم که این اثر مثبت داشته باشد!

 

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ای برادر، من میدانم، که تو با من مخالفی
   بس نگو، کل بر من واضح است، کاین تو با من مخالفی
 
'الف' من برای تو 'ی' باشد، بس نگو دگر، کاین را کامل می دانم
   پرخاش نیست لازم، بی احترامی نیست بجا، کاین تو با من مخالفی

بر سر این میز نشین، ای برادر، و با من لقمه ای نان خور
   من تو نیستم، و  تو نه به من، بنشین ای دوست، گر چه تو با من مخالفی

دوستی، و برادری، بیش از اینست، ای ایرانی من
   خود را الوده مکن، نه ستیزه و  نه نزاع، گر چه من می دانم، که تو با من مخالفی

خاک ما ایران بود، ای دوست من، و ریشه ما ایرانی
    این را فراموشت مکن، هرگز مگذار، بس ستیزه باشد، گرچه تو با من مخالفی

 


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more from مسعود از امریکا
 
NUR

Truth & Anger

by NUR on

Dear Manoucher,

There is a bourgeois-elitist fallacy amongst some people that makes how a thing is said the actual gauge for its veracity. In logic, this is called a red herring and it is a fallacy of reasoning. The truth or factual content of a given issue does not change or alter whether it is screamed in anger or politely stated in demuring genuflective terms. In other words, something does not become false because it is stated in anger. Some of the greatest truth-tellers, the Prophets and saints, have been some very angry people given the social injustices  and abuses they faced. Unfortunately people generally being creatures of herd instinct and consensus realities do make such invalid distinctions all the time. And because our culture's historical experience has been so checkered by the issue of class and social status, and as we are programmed from an early age to be overly deferential to all forms of authority, we Iranians suffer from this cultural handicap more than any other. Yet whether the matter be phrased in terms of betamarg or benishin, the fact of the matter is that you are being told to sit! It is one and the same.

Now moving along, one my favourite stories told by Shaykh Shamsuddin Aflaki in his Manaqib'ul-'Arifin (the Stations of the Gnostics) is about Shams-i-Tabrizi's entry into Konya some time before his meeting with Mowlana. Aflaki relates how when Shams entered the city hundreds of the common folk suddenly besieged him from every side, taking the hem of his dishevelled qalandari robe, begging him as one of God's elect saints to intercede for them with the Almighty. Shams takes several steps back, drops his pants and then begins to urinate a large circle around himself. The common rabble then become disgusted and turn the other way yelling imprecations and abuse at Shams-i-Tabrizi from whom just before they were seeking divine intercession. Shams then reflects and says, "such is the worth of the common rabble in the Eyes of Truth. They come seeking with a 'veshsh' and leave with a single 'feshsh'! But where are the sincere God-seekers willing to seek for the diamond through all the challenges, vicissitudes and sufferings of the Path?"

Consider that the reality from which Shams is reflecting is where I am also coming from. Besides the Divine is not only known as al-Haqq (the Real Truth), al-Rahman (the Compassionate) or al-Ra'uf (the Clement). It is also known as al-Qahhar (the Avenger), al-Qabiz (the Constricter) and al-Khafiz (the Abaser).

 


Manoucher Avaznia

Nur;

by Manoucher Avaznia on

Thank you for the response.  I cannot disagree with truth; however, I still am on the stand that these can be put in a manner that substantiate their truthfulness.  When it goes to bad word, quite honestly, most people do not know if you are talking a solid truth or venting an anger.  I read your other post on white maject that was interesting, but I know nothing about it.

 

Regards


NUR

To Iran Parast/To Souri

by NUR on

IP: Been there and done that a million times over with the Baha'is and their assorted friends. That you are flying off the handle as you are says volumes about your own motives. Secondly, I don't know who Massoud is. Has he said anywhere explicitly here on this blog he isn't a Baha'i? No. 

Next unless you are a degreed mental health professional with  a Ph.D kindly keep your diagnoses and prognoses to yourself. You don't know what you are talking about, so kindly quit following the a herd consensus here, and note that it is possible that you might suffer from a few things yourself!

That said, Souri khanum, I will reply to you more extensively with details. But I will say that both my parents were Baha'is - technically they are still on the rolls but neither consider themselves Bahais any more. I am a convert to the Bayan. The whole conflict in our family started when I formally left the Bahai religion in 1996 . It all escalated in 2000 when I was physically assaulted and nearly killed by my aunt's ex-husband, my cousin and two other people at my grandparent's home for my non-Bahai position and critical postings to the internet - which were quite tame at the time compared to now! To make a long story short, the Bahai administration then covered up the whole thing when my parents went to them for help, even threatened them with shunning, backed the perpetrators, and soon even published libel in the Australian Baha'i Bulletin to cover it all up. It later turned out that the assault against me was premeditated, and the libel against me was specifically orchestrated by UHJ member Peter Khan.

Earlier in 1997 (after I had withdrawn) they had spied on me for months afterwards and circulated this letter amongst their own people,

//iranian.com/main/blog/nur/ex-bahai-turned-sufi-spied-and-harrassed-between-continents-bahai-administration

It all sounds like the IRI doesn't it?  Go figure...

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[Comment and time of posting recorded in the event of deletion by the censor of this site]


IRAN PARAST

To: NUR ... (Read This)

by IRAN PARAST on

I have read your comments in this blog, and I have to say that you are completely off the wall here!! If you think that Massoud Khan is a Bahai, or a Bahai sympathizer, you are more 'Unabalanced', and 'Crazier', than I thought you were.

Based on my readings of all of Massoud's blogs, he doesn't care one bit about the Bahai religion, or for that matter, the schism that exists between the Babis and the Bahais. His focus has been, and always was, The Greater Iran, and the National Unity Between the Iranian People.

If you doubt what I am saying, then take the time to read his blogs for yourself. I have an advice for you: If I were you, I wouldn't embarrass myself more than I have so far. Your behavior is clearly that of a Paranoid/Schizophrenic fool.

There is a saying that 'If you give enough rope to a fool, that he will ultimately hang himself'. That clearly applies to you here based on your writings, and comments.

Finally, shame on you for 'Insulting' someone who was trying to help you. You are clearly beyond hope!

 

 


Souri

Nur (re-posted)

by Souri on

Nur

I delete the content of my comment here, because I was assuming things about your story which were wrong. I delete it completely for not giving the wrong information to the public.

Regards,


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To: NUR ... (Read This)

by Iran Parast (not verified) on

I have read your comments in this blog, and I have to say that you are completely off the wall here!! If you think that Massoud Khan is a Bahai, or a Bahai sympathizer, you are more 'Unabalanced', and 'Crazier', than I thought you were.

Based on my readings of all of Massoud's blogs, he doesn't care one bit about the Bahai religion, or for that matter, the schism that exists between the Babis and the Bahais. His focus has been, and always was, The Greater Iran, and the National Unity Between the Iranian People.

If you doubt what I am saying, then take the time to read his blogs for yourself. I have an advice for you: If I were you, I wouldn't embarrass myself more than I have so far. Your behavior is clearly that of a Paranoid/Schizophrenic fool.

There is a saying that 'If you give enough rope to a fool, that he will ultimately hang himself'. That clearly applies to you here based on your writings, and comments.

Finally, shame on you for 'Insulting' someone who was trying to help you. You are clearly beyond hope!


NUR

Derogatory words?

by NUR on

Dear Manouchehr,

I wonder if you would agree or disagree with the following derogatory words of Mirza Husayn 'Ali Baha'u'llah (and there's plenty more where that came from),

 

In
Ma'idih-i-Asmani
, vol. 4, page 355
//reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MAS4/mas4-355.html
Translation by Wahid Azal (Jan. 7, 2009)
Chapter 11

The Critics of the Cause of God (munkirin-i-amru'llah)


The Ancient Beauty in the Tablet of Habib from Maragha, which begins with "H B hear the call of God from the direction of the throne by the protective signs/verses (bi-ayati muhayyimin)..etc." they [i.e. Husayn 'Ali Nuri] enunciate the command (mi-farmayand) [i.e. state],
 
By God, the Truth, whomsoever criticizes it [i.e. Baha'ism], [which is] possessed of the manifest, the brilliant, the high and the perspicuous excellence, it behoveth him to ask his mother [yanbaghi lahu bi-an yas'al min ummihi] about his origins [or 'state', i.e.'hal', meaning he should inquire his mother about his legitimate conception – trans.], for he shall return to the nethermost hell [asfal al-jahim]"…


In Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 322 the following is quoted by 'Abbas Effendi from a prayer by his father, cf. THE BAHA'I FAITH AND ISLAM (ed.) Heshmat Moayyad (The Association for Baha'i Studies: Ottawa, 1990), p.23

O God! Whomsoever violates My Covenant, O God, humiliate him. Verily whosoever violates My Covenant, erase and efface him.

-

Would you not agree, therefore, that with such words emanating from one the Baha'is consider to be the supreme manifestation of the Divine - the likes of which won't be seen for another 500,000 years according to them -, that neither the mullahs nor street people have a corner on the derogatory word market? I also can show some highly creative and illustrative derogatory words Husayn 'Ali says about the second wife of the Bab in his Kitab-i-Badi' written in the 1860s in Edirne.

I ask you, in the presence of such a one and his followers - where the very existence of myself and other Bayanis is an affront to them, and who to us Bayanis is seen and regarded in the same light that many expatriate Iranians in North America see and feel about the Ayatollah  Khomeini - how is peace or civil discourse possible unless these people fess up to their own misdeeds of the past and make even a modicum of an attempt to redress them?

For example, recently a letter was posted here by some notable Iranians in North America apologizing to the Baha'is for perceived injustices perpetrated upon them by the society of Iran of the past century and a half. Wouldn't you agree that given the clear and indisputable historical record and evidence, that maybe some prominent Baha'is should write a letter apologizing to the people of the Bayan for the crimes of their founders and leaders perpetrated upon us? Of course, I do not believe that such a thing will ever happen, since these people here are mostly in a state of adamant denial about any such things. They believe that they are always the victim in every circumstance and everyone else the perpetrator -- that is, even though the realities are always the opposite and reverse. How about the countless and innumerable derogatory words of the Baha'i leaders cast against our holy figures, sacred personages and righteous believers? Or all those Witnesses of the Bayan and Letters of the Living their founder had murdered? How about the century and a half of lies and deciets perpetrated by these people against us in their literature and in their global propaganda? Doesn't that deserve to be addressed and redressed?

And I haven't even begun recounting the mindboggling bi-sharmi-ha and na-mardi-ha perpetrated by the leadership of this organization against myself personally and my family. Perhaps I should get my mother to open an account here and tell you all the story of how the Baha'i administration, first, attempted to split my parents apart, and when that failed - nay completely backfired! -  they went to separate my mother from her elderly, and unfortunately totally brainwashed Haifan Bahai, parents, i.e.  my grandparents. How about the similar stories Mrs Mahnaz Ra'ufi recounted some years ago regarding what they did within her own family? Don't any of these deserve similar apologies that the Haifan Baha'i constantly demand of everybody in Iran? 

The purpose of this present blog was for no other reason but to diffuse the mere appearance of tensions and the fact that some people are beginning to ask hard questions of these people due to the specific material I (and earlier Covenant Breaker -- where is he?) had posted. Therefore the intent of this present blog was completely insincere and for general purpose mas-mali by the Haifan cabal here. These people are not remotely interested in peace talks or genuine commiseration. Been there, done that a hundred thousand times over with them in the past 13+ years!

As for myself, I really don't care anymore what people think of my methods -- or of me personally. One thing is for sure, my method works. Empty niceties and platitudes with these people do not work. The actual material and evidence stands on its own with or without me: material and evidence which clearly and unassailably indicts the Baha'is, and specifically the Haifan Baha'is, for what they are - wolves in sheeps clothing, malicious aggressors pretending to peace and love, and complete liars!

[Comment and time of posting recorded in the event of deletion by the censor of this site]


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مخلص منوچهر عزیز

Seagull (not verified)


صدای وجدان بر لبان انسان همچو طننین ملائک است

و لبخند حقیقت در چهره منصف نزیر نور آفتاب

About anonimity, I was not sure if i was going to stick around when i started and i enjoyed the sacredbess of anonimity, but it will change.
I appreciate your kind and heartfelt words
best regards,


مسعود از امریکا

جناب جهانشاه

مسعود از امریکا


من با اجازتون، می خوام یکی دو کلمه راجع به نظری که دوست عزیز، Seeking Peace، داده اند ، صحبت کنم. ببینید، منظور و مقصود من از نوشتن این بلاگ این بود که فضایی درست شود، که حتی الامکان، بین دوستان بهایی و اقای نور، یک بحث مثبت، و شاید هم مصالحتی بین دو طرف بر قرار شود. ببینید، برای من انتقاد کردن از دیگران اسان نیست. شما در این چند هفته، به من خیلی لطف و محبت داشته اید، و خیلی از قطعات من را در صفحه اول چاپ کرده اید. ولی، اگر من با شما به عنوان یک دوست روراست نباشم، من واقعا دوست شما نیستم. من این چیز ها را گفتم، که خدمتتون عرض کنم، که نظر و برداشت دوست ما، Seeking Peace، در این مورد کاملا صحیح می باشد. به عنوان سر دبیر این وب سایت، شما یک سری مسئوليت ها و وظایفی دارید، که بقیه ندارند. برای من هیچ شکی نیست، که یکی دو کلمه نظر مثبت از شما دیشب، صد در صد اثری سود مند می داشت. شاید بر امد و نتیجه کار عوض نمی شد. ولی، بعقیده من، هیچ اثری منفی نمی داشت. امیدوارم که از این نظر بنده دلگیر نشده باشید - من برایتون ارزوی موفقیت می کنم!


Manoucher Avaznia

Seagul Jaan;

by Manoucher Avaznia on

Why are not puting your real name my friend?  You have gone through all those events; why should be shy or concerned?  Aknoon ze che tarseem ke dar Ein Balaaeem?  I did not write something like this to Agh Reza because I personally did not know anyone in the front line with me, however I knew at least two Christians who went through every single event that Moslems and unbeliever did.  As someone wrote sometime ago to me: "Be Abdaaze'ye Yek Khakreez Khat'moghaddam Mokhleseem".  It is because of the sacrifices of brave men like you that Imperialists go all the way near our borders and do not dare to violate it. 


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Dear Jahanshah (Mr. Javid)

by Seeking Peace (not verified) on

Last night, on this thread, I left a message for you, trying to encourage you to somehow contribute in the Reconciliation Process that was happening here. You can see my message several comments down.

I indicated to you that since your name was prominently mentioned in this blog, that it would be helpful if you left a useful and constructive message here.

To my disappointment, I did not see anything from you. At the same time, I do know that you read all the comments by unregistered people, such as myself, and have to approve them before getting them posted. You indicated yourself a few weeks ago that you are the 'ONLY' Moderator on this site now.

I have to say that I am sorely disappointed by your ignoring this suggestion. As the Publisher of this site, you should feel more responsible than you are exhibiting here. Especially, in view of the fact that YOU YOURSELF were directly involved in this whole affair. I did read all the back and forth accusatoery comments between you and Mr. Nur in his blog.

Finally, let me say this: Lack of courage, such as demonstarted by your Inaction here, is one of the rerasons that we Iranians are not as united as we should be. A lot of people were trying hard last night to bring about reconciliation on this thread, yet you didn't find it within yourself to participate and contribute in any positive way. I guess it's more important to show half-naked Iranian women on the Front Page! It clearly shows where your priorities are.

P.S. You do not need to post this comment here. I am really leaving this comment for you to read, first and foremost. Again, I DO KNOW that you read all these unregistered comments.


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Sabaz!

by Seagull (not verified) on

Agh Reza,
I was first among all my moslem friends to be drafted and I walked in to the Eshratabad and singed myself in right after the high school.
I stayed 3 months in Tehran for training and the rest was in the front. I had family members, cousings and other Bahai friends who served during the war. And the fact that I was a Bahai was not a secret. Shortly after I was assinged to the Lashgar, one morning during Sobhgah, they read a statement from Setaad and asked all Bahai personnels to report themselves for discharge. Later that day they told me that only included the paid personnel and not draftees and I served with honor 1&1\2 years plus 6months doraane ehtiah all during the war. Perhaps you can verify with the Rokne yeke Artesh and find out more.


Manoucher Avaznia

Nur;

by Manoucher Avaznia on

Thank you for this revelation, however I do not know anything about the "Hekmat" of Horoof Abjad and I can not say anything about their applications and implications in the Bayanee or Baha'i beliefs.  My whole concern is about drogotory use of words against our opponent instead of using solid and tangible logic.  Speaking naked truth is a sign of people's honesty and it is highly appreciated, but wisdom has to be taken into consideration too.  If you are shopping grociery, are you going to call other shoppers and express you dissatisfaction about Baha'is?  

Even if everything you say about those whom you mentioned is true and you want to make "rowshangaree" to the public, you have to put it in a way that your audience understand and pay attention to.  What is the use of spending so much energy and time and instead of posting an article like the one you have just posted (that is way more solid, more understandable, and is less harmful than many other articles that you posted before), posting something shallow that you even cannot properly support.  See, I understand that you are a man of moral principles, using language of immorality doesn't look beautiful to be heard from you.  If I hear these in the streets (that I hear abundantly) I have no problem; but hearing from you just doesn't look appropriate.

Finally, the stand that you have taken (I am speaking from just technical point of view as I have read only one book about the subject and a criticizm on it and need years of studies to come to a conprehensive understanding to put me in the position of raising a solid question); Brother, is not practical for a discussion.  That is the logic of elimination and destruction.  Can you re-consider your stnad and bring it within a framework that can be discussed and people like me can understand the discussion, please?

I think you understand what I am saying.  Let's not kid ourselves, none of the people who write here is in that position to agree with your first paragraph to begin with.

I look forward to read more from you, but please put it as straight and as polite as you can.

 

Thanx

 

 


NUR

The fate of Baha'ism, Light and fire

by NUR on

Dear Manouchehr,

The Haifan Bahais are only one amongst a myriad of other Bahai sects, albeit the numerical majority. In the greater scheme, however, the Haifan Bahai organization is the malignant cancer needing to be cut out, and this is precisely what this Physician is here to do - to cut out a fatal and malignant cancer! All of the other Bahai denominations, especially the Orthodox Bahais, also agree. The Haifan Bahai organization must be cut to size in order for everyone else concerned, non-Haifan Bahai, Bayani as well as others, to live and breathe freely. I have no problem with the other Bahai denominations continuing to exist in an equal playing field. It is the malignant and cancerous bacteria that is the Haifan cult which is the problem and which should be wiped off the face of the earth for the universal good of humanity, insha'Llah! Furthemore, it is only fair that the living descendents of Mirza Husayn 'Ali Baha' get back their bequeethed inheritance, which is Bahji: i.e. the estate that Shoghi Effendi stole from them. So, you see, we're not talking about the fate of Bahaism as a whole. We're speaking of Divine Justice falling upon the heads of a very specific, albeit presently powerful, cabal! The other groups can go on and do whatsoever they like in a new world living in peace and freedom, and we Bayanis are happy to commune with them in friendship and amity, even though we believe the overall founder of Bahaism was a malefic and satanic SOB!

Now earlier on another thread you specifically objected to my referring to Mirza Husayn 'Ali as Nari. Your objection is noted. Please note that the epithet is one regularly used by many Bayanis as well, and not just for derisive and dismissive reasons; but also for clearly demarcated theological reasons that are explicitly specified and stipulated in the Bayan itself. 

In the Persian Bayan the Essence of the Seven Letters, the Bab, delineates that in every Resurrection/Revelation (qiyamat/zuhur) Light (nur) and darkness (zulma), Paradise ('iliyyun) and hell (jahanam), epiphanize within the dramaturgy of specific persons. There are the Letters of Light (huruf-i-nur) and there are the letters of fire (huruf-i-nar), and the difference between the words 'nur' (256) and 'nar' (251) is one letter - and note their abjad numerology is only a difference of five (which is the abjad numerical value of the word Bab and the letter ha'). The Letters of Light are referrable to the reality of affirmation (isbat) and the phrase 'illa allah' (but the Godhead) and the letters of fire to that of negation (nafy) and 'la ilaha' (no god). As such in each Manifestation the manifestation of the Primal Will (mashiyat-i-ula) - who is Light (nur) - is met by His or Her antagonist, who is the personification of the fire (nar). For every Christ there is the antichrist! If this sounds dualist in a very odd but very old Persian sort of way it is because that is the case! However do not take this as the final word on the overall ontology of the Bayan because the metaphysics of the Bayan gets quite complex. Let's just say that such dualism occurs only in the spatiotemporal world of manifestation, and specifically during each Resurrection, while the greater overall scheme centrifugally revolves around Tawhid (unicity). To understand all this is to refer to the Bab's numerous, complex esoteric commentaries on the tahlil (la ilaha illa allah) in His Book of the Five Grades (kitab-i-panj sha'n), the Persian Bayan and a few other places.

Now one of the countless epithets given by the Essence of the Seven Letters to Subh-i-Azal is NUR (Light). This was both a correspondence to the ancestral home from which Subh-i-Azal hailed from in Mazandaran; but also because NUR is equivalent in abjad numerology to the phrase nafs allah (Logos-Self of the Godhead) which the Bab applied to Himself. For example, in the iqama of the Bayani namaz, we say "ashhadu an 'aliyan qabla nabil mazhar nafs allah" (I testify that 'Ali before Nabil is the Manifestation of the Logos-Self of the Godhead). Now the signet ring of the Primal Point also bears the inscription, "innani ana hujjat allah wa nurihu" (Verily I am the Proof of the Godhead and Its Light). The Proof (hujjat) of the Godhead is Its Light which is the manifestation of Its Logos-Self (nafs). To the Bayanis, the hujjat/proof of the Bayan is, first, Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab, and after His martyrdom Mirza Yahya Nuri Subh-i-Azal - who are deemed One and the Same. The Bab often wrote to Subh-i-Azal - as well as His Letters of the Living - saying, "This is an epistle/book from God the Dearly Precious, the Best Beloved, to God the Protector, the Peerless!"

There are resonances to Gnostic Christology here, but High Imamology and the Sufi doctrine of the Perfect Man (insan kamil) already presupposed much of this in Islamic esotericism and theophanology. In any case, as the successor to the Point of the Bayan Subh-i-Azal is specifically the Return of the Point (rij'at-i-nuqta) in the station (maqam) of  Mirror (mirat). Subh-i-Azal is deemed therefore the very Logos-Self (nafs) of the Point in another modality. The Essence of the Seven Letters even states to Him in an epistle, "anta ana wa ana anta" (I am You and You are I). This relationship also needs to be understood in its proper Shi'ite context as analogous to the relationship of Muhammad (sws) to 'Ali (as). Nubuwwat/prophecy is discharged or apotheosized within Wilayat/Providential Guidance through which the reality of Islam qua religion is completed. In the Bayan Nuqtawiyat/Pointhood is likeswise discharged and completed within Miratiyat/Mirrorhood and the Bayan as religion is completed, i.e. for every Sun (risalat) there must be a Moon (wilayat), for every a day night, arc of descent (nuzul) and arc of ascent ('uruj), Revelation (tanzil) and the Return (tawil)!

Given this, the violation of the sanctity of Subh-i-Azal and the betrayal of the trust of the Primal Point by Mirza Husayn 'Ali in his bogus claim and what transpired due to it, in the Bayani theological context, this legitimately makes Husayn 'Ali the primal letter of negation (harf nafy), the breaker of the primordial covenant of the Godhead (naqiz min 'ahd Allah), thus the embodiment of the fire (nar) and so the antichrist (dajjal) of the Revelation of the Bayan! QED 

Hope this contextualizes the matter better for you. Finally, for the record, I should also state that I am neither a liberal or neo-liberal (or conservative, for that matter), and so do not subscribe to any notions of political correctness, nor, moreover, do I subscribe to vacuous and amorally platitudinal ideas about getting along for the sake of getting along or these fake notions of unity and let's all hold hands and sing "koombaya" like the Baha'is pretend. Such behavior is usually the hallmark of wolves in sheeps clothing who believe nothing is sacred. In my world, there is right and there is wrong, and no apologies or moral waffling is needed or required to stand with what is right against what is wrong. I also live by the motto,

"rast-gu vali kufr gu"/Speak the Truth even though it be blasphemy!  

413

[Comment and time of posting recorded in the event of deletion by the censor of this site]


default

To Reza!

by Anahid (not verified) on

اقای محترم

تا اونجایی که من شاهد بودم در زمان جنگ ایران و عراق صحبت از بهایی مسلمان کلیمی زرتشتی مسیحی نبود. هر کسی که مشمول بود باید خدمت سربازی میرفت.
شخصا از بستگان و دوستان خودم که از پیروان ایین بهایی بودن خدمت سربازی رفتند.

خدمت شما عرض شود که بهاییان در طی ٣٠ سال اخیر از حق تحصیل در دانشگاه(من یکی از انها هستم) و حق کار در ادارات وابسته به دولت محروم بودند و از بسیاری از حقوق شهروندی محروم ولی در عین حال پا به پای سایر شهروندان باید سربازی بروند و مالیات بدهند.و همواره مصادره اموال بهاییان حلال بوده!!
یا همه یا هیچکس باید از یک حقوق شهروندی برخوردار باشد .

همه انسانها با عقاید گوناگون مانند یک باغ گل با رنگها و عطر های متفاوت هستند. همین تفاوتها این باغ را زیبا کرده.با دشمنی و تهمت همه چیز بدتر خواهد شد.

روز خوبی را داشته باشید.


مسعود از امریکا

منوچهر جان

مسعود از امریکا


خیلی ممنون عزیزم - قربانت!


Manoucher Avaznia

آقا مسعود؛

Manoucher Avaznia


کسی نیات خیرشما را زیر سئوال نبرده برادر.  قدم شما خیر بوده و به جای خود حاصل خیر خواهد داد. الاعمال بالنیات.

شاد باشی


مسعود از امریکا

دوستان

مسعود از امریکا


من اینجا سعی کردم که دو طرف را گرد هم اورده، به امید اینکه شاید راه حلی باشد برای این اختلافات و سؤِتفاهم ها. ولی از قرار معلوم، این بیش از ان چیزی بود که من فکر می کردم - در هر حال، در راه صلح و دوستی، این طور قدمها هیچوقت عیب نیستند، حتی اگر ناموفق امیز باشند - ممنون از همه!


Manoucher Avaznia

محاسبات رزمی آق رضا؛

Manoucher Avaznia


وقت میوه چینی رسید و هنگامه ی بهره برداری از شهدای میهن؟ نرخ بین دعوا
تعیین نکن رفیق. شش سال و نیم از هشت سال چنگ برای تغییر رژیم در عراق
بود. خیلی افراد دیگر هم به جبهه مشرف نشدند.  بازار محترم تهران هم در
هول و ولای جنگ خون مردم را به همراه سران نطام مقدس نوش جان فرمودند.  از
آقای میر حسین بپرسید لایحه ی ضد احتکار به کجا رسید. آق رضارخصت بفرمایید
آنهایی که از "رحمت جنگ" بهرهمند شذند و می شوند مانند چاکر بمیرند بعد از
دفاع مقدس و رزم میانه ی میدان خود صحبت بفرمایید. بنا بر محاسبه سرکار
باید یک ششم جمعیت بهاییان ایران در رخت رزم می بودند.  با این حساب، از
جمعیت چهل و چند میلیونی ایران می بایست حدودهشت میلیون در جبهه ها می
بودند که تجربه ی جنگی سر کار بر آن صحه نمی گذارد.  بنا بر محاسبات شرکای
تسلیحاتی آقای رفسنجانی برای اینکه یک سرباز دز جبهه بجنگد باید بیست نفر
در پشت جبهه کار کنند.  ملاحظه می فرمایید آق رضا؛ برای چنین نیروی جنگی
باید جمعیت میهنی که سرکار برایش خون داده صد و شصت میلیون تن می
بوده.  پانصد لشکر بسیجی سال شصت و پنج که خاطر مبارک هست؟  دیدید که چگونه به پانصد گردان کاهش یافتند. امدادهای غیبی
آقای مک فارلین هم که معرف حضور شما هست.  کسانی هم که پیش چشم بنده
جان دادند سهم من


faryarm

Manoucher Jaan

by faryarm on

I am speechless. its 2 am and i want read more...

Please take the time and speak more  and expose the hypocrisy behind all these slogans by Mullahs..and the innocent children they sent to the slaughter in the name of Islam (peace)

 

You have my utmost respect, my friend..

 

faryarm 


Manoucher Avaznia

آق رضا؛

Manoucher Avaznia


وقت میوه چینی رسید و هنگامه ی بهره برداری از شهدای میهن؟ نرخ بین دعوا تعیین نکن رفیق. شش سال و نیم از هشت سال چنگ برای تغییر رژیم در عراق بود. خیلی افراد دیگر هم به جبهه مشرف نشدند.  بازار محترم تهران هم در هول و ولای جنگ خون مردم را به همراه سران نطام مقدس نوش جان فرمودند.  از آقای میر حسین بپرسید لایحه ی ضد احتکار به کجا رسید. آق رضارخصت بفرمایید آنهایی که از "رحمت جنگ" بهرهمند شذند و می شوند مانند چاکر بمیرند بعد از دفاع مقدس صحبت بفرمایید.      

 

According to the conscription laws ratified by the Iranian
National Assembly; The Majless-e Showra-ye Mellee, in the period
between World War I and World War II as long as a healthy male attended
school he was exempted from military service. Therefore, students who
mainly attended government-run higher education institutions were
exempted from service until they concluded their education. This
exemption would last for, at the most, ten years for university
students while for mollas it was, almost, for life. Since they used to
go to school for their entire life, when the time for their military
service came they had already reached their late forties or early
fifties and because of their age they were exempted from service
altogether.

By the establishment of the Islamic Republic and after the
purgation of the secularist factions of the government, mollas almost
monopolized the power and privilege of military exemption continued.
Somehow, under both types of government and despite their profound
differences mollas enjoyed the benefit of exemption: under the Shah
they used the government secularism to avoid military service and under
the Islamic Republic they used the privilege of being in power to avoid
serving in the armed forces.

At the same time in the government-run media there were reports
about mollas who had voluntarily spent times in the fronts fighting
against the “infidel” enemy. In some instances portraits of those who
had fought and lost their lives for the cause were shown to the public.
Before going to the front I believed the media, but on the ground I
faced a different reality.

In the war field there were a few mollas, but they always
stayed in the headquarters and rarely visited the front lines. This was
their participation in the war of Islam against infidelity. Naturally,
sometimes these headquarters were targets of Iraqi planes and artillery
bombs that inflicted casualties that mollas could be found among them.
There were more than sixty thousand mollas in the country and their
number was on the rise; but in the entire time that I spent in the
front line I saw only two mollas to share the divinity of the war with
us. One of them who seemed to be a countryman and wore thick eyeglasses
stayed one night with us and guarded with Karamee while we were in
ChazzabehStrait. The second molla spent just a few hours in the Hellish
Base with my platoon and left.

One July morning Neekvarz told me a molla had come to the
company and I was ordered to prepare my men for listening to his
preaching. It seemed for its relative safety, the base had been chosen
for him to visit. When I let my soldiers know about the molla’s coming,
showers of swearing began. They said we were fighting at their orders
and they were responsible for our suffering. Their swearing could cause
trouble if reported to the Politico-Ideology Organization. Certainly if
the molla heard them, he would have reported the matter. I asked the
soldiers they had to be polite to the fellow in my presence and they
kept silent as they were sitting in full military combat gears under
the awning adjacent to my bunker.

At around eleven the bearded conscript sergeant in charge of
the company Politico-Ideology who had replaced Seyyed arrived with a
tall molla; introduced him to me and left. The molla’s long beard,
cloak, white turban, and civilian shoes did not fit the war region and
military life. Soldiers became restless again.

"Salmon Aleikom," said the molla as he came close to us.

"Salmon Aleikom and snake venom," a soldier murmured.

The molla did not hear whereas I choked my laughter. I told the
molla soldiers were ready to listen to his speech and left the class
for my bunker where I laughed myself sick at what was going on between
the molla and soldiers.

As the molla began, the soldiers asked irrelevant questions and
made fun of him. But he was too smart to easily lose the ground. He
patiently answered every question and kept on speaking for half an
hour. At some points he hinted at Islam’s attitude towards warriors,
God's assistance in the war, and status of the warriors before Him. He
said Islamic soldiers' endeavors were so precious to Allah that His
angels kissed their hands and arms while they were shooting; and they
led their bullets to the target. He brought an example from the Qur'an
that Allah had said: "it was not the Moslems who were shooting their
arrows, but it was Allah who was shooting in their behalf".

When an Islamic warrior was killed in the war he would go to
paradise without being questioned because he had sacrificed the most
precious thing he possessed: his life. In this context he brought the
example of an early Islamic martyr whose dead body had been cleansed by
the angels right after his martyrdom and he became a “Ghaseel-ol
Malaaekah”. According to him, a martyr’s remains did not need to be
cleansed before burial as others’ bodies did; and he did not need to be
wrapped in shroud for burial as others’ did; and each martyr could
intercede for up to forty people of his relatives and friends of choice
with Allah and take them to paradise with himself.

With this the messenger of death-for-paradise brought his
speech to an end and came to my bunker drenched in perspiration. We
lunched without talking much while he was heavily sweating. After lunch
we took a nap. He held his afternoon class without soldiers asking
questions. They would rather he talked his full time and left them
alone. Perhaps, he received the message and spoke for one hour and
asked me to order the soldier to line up for general prayer.

Knowing the soldiers hated the prayer as much as I did, I said
from a military point of view it was dangerous to hold the prayer in
general because Iraqi shells might have hit the base and kill many
soldiers with one shot. It was an empty but useful excuse. Until then
we had received only two Iraqi shells in the yard. The molla agreed
with my point saying in that case Islam did not order the prayer to be
held in general. The soldiers went to their bunkers and he prayed alone.

In the evening we drank tea and spoke in a friendly manner. I
asked him a few philosophical questions that he answered in detail and
depth as I expected from him. Then, he told me he was a paid clergyman
with six children and came from MashhadReligiousSchool. He had not been
told that he was going to be taken to the front line when he had been
brought to the war field. He meant that he had not intended to come to
the front; but, all of a sudden, he had found himself in the front
line; and so he was in a hurry to leave.

I thought I should have the man taste the reality of the war
that perhaps he told the truth to his own circle of friends, family,
and relatives. Also, I wanted to show him Iraqis well-fortified
positions, so that he could see the promised victory was indeed out of
the question. I proposed he visited our observation post with me so
that he could get a better understanding of the Iraqi side. He
reluctantly consented to my proposal and we prepared to go forward.

To have him camouflaged, he took his cloak and white turban off
and wore my military overcoat and a helmet. His appearance was
spectacular. His long beard and shoes looked especially interesting. I
took my gun and we set out; and as the sun was setting we reached the
post. Located to the west, Iraqis had the advantage of observation as
we reached the observation post.

I gave the molla an overview of the Iraqi front line while he
was looking at Hill 85 with a pair of binoculars borrowed from the
observer. I had not finished my explanations that Iraqis started
pounding our neighboring unit: Siamak’s platoon, to the north. With the
first shell that hit somewhere about one kilometer from us the molla
dropped the binoculars and withdrew.

I followed and caught up with him some one hundred meters away.
I did not want to hurt his feelings by reminding him that his
withdrawal was out of fear. Instead, I said that it would be a pity he
left the battlefront without shooting a few bullets at a target.
Loading my gun, I gave it to him to shoot at a target several meters
away.

He shot only one bullet and returned the gun saying that was
enough of shooting. There were twenty-nine more cartridges left in the
magazine and I insisted he shot more. He declined my offer without
posing any Islamic pretext in which the mollas are experts. I did not
want to let him go without extracting his true motive for not shooting:
was the gunshot too loud for his ear? He admitted I was right and his
ear was whizzing. I wondered how the mollas could offer the sloth of
paradise to soldiers whereas they as scholars and advocates of the same
religion were not willing to endure the loud noise of a gunshot.

By the time we reached the base the shelling had ceased and the
sun had almost set. The molla left for another unit to prepare more
soldiers for martyrdom and my soldiers encircled me with big grins on
their faces. They said once the molla and I were gone, Shaaban had put
on the molla's turban and cloak and had danced to the drumming of
another soldier; the whole base had been merrily clapping and dancing,
ridiculing the molla. I shared molla’s shooting story with them. A
soldier who was furious came close.

"I know these bastards better than anybody in the world,” he
said aloud, “They go to their immune places and tell you to fight for
paradise. They believe death is good for the neighbor; but not for
themselves!"

 

From:  A PathTo Nowhere (Iran-Iraq war memoirs)

By:  Manoucher Avaznia

 


faryarm

فريام عذيز نگذار سر سخن را باز كنم

faryarm


Please Go Ahead,

and let every one continue to enjoy your truly genuine, sincere, knowledge and wisdom... 


faryarm

Wahid Khan, try again, Surprise Us..

by faryarm on


Wahid,

With respect, I was hoping that you would surprise every one and come out out of your shell and shed  the hate...and the tired old cliches used by IRI and Hojjatiyyih..

 and not to ridicule in any way, but 

this accusatory tone and quite honestly absurd list,  sounds like a Peter Falk Colombo episode , setting conditions and basis for hostage negotiation :)

I think what people are interested to read is an honest account what happened to you; what has hurt you so much.

You know that the above, even to the unsuspecting, and the uninitiated on the subject, your response comes across as the product of a conspiracy theory, and as a sign of respect for civilized discourse , i am not going to mention that P word..( Rosie , this applies to you too )

Please press that hard reset button in you heart and come back and surprise us all with something about your beleif, claim, hopes  and purpose in life.

 faryarm


alborz

Thank you NUR for simplifying the task...

by alborz on

... for all to see your intent, character and whatever that may characterize you.   The readership ultimately is now in a position to reach their own conclusion, if there was any doubt before.

I am grateful for this outcome.  Thank you again.

Alborz


Reza 41

mercy massod jan

by Reza 41 on

فريام عزيز: اين حرف شما كه بهاييان در سخت ترين شرايط به مملكت خدمت مي كنند و فقط به شعار اكتفا نمي كنند مي توانست درست بوده باشد و بنده شكي ندارم ايشان همگام با رزمندگان ميهني ميتوانستند در كنار ما وقتي كه سينه به سينه دشمن متجاوز بعثي قرار داده بوديم و  گوشت و استخوان و پوست خود را سپري براي حفظ ناموس و وطنمان كرده بوديم ايشان پشت جبهه را ترجيج نميدادند, شما ميفرماييد  300000 نفر بهايي در ايران هستند حال نميگوييم 100000 بهايي واجد شرايط جنگيدن و بيرون راندن دشمن بودند ميگوييم 50000 نفر ,در زمان جنگ چند نفر از جامعه بهايي جانشان را فداي خاك و ناموسشان كردند؟ شهداي بهايي جنگ ايران و عراق چند نفر بود ؟ قصد بنده بي احترامي نيست اما اين حضرت آقاي بها الله شما وقتي دستور ترك جهاد دادند براي طفلان حرام زاده بعثي ناشي از تجاوز به خواهر و مادر من و شما در خرمشهر و آبادان و دهاتهاي اطراف چه ييش بيني و الوحي صادر كردند ؟ آه معذرت ميخوام متوجه دستور نوراني ايشان نشدم كه فرمودند 19 مثقال طلا در عوض به هر نفر كه تجاوز شدند بعثيان بايد جريمه بدهند به كي؟ به بت العدل عظمي در حيفا اسراييل , فقط اگر لطف مي فرمودند ميگفتند به چه طريقي؟ فدرال اكپرس يا پيك باد پا؟
 ابن كه معلوم شود ديگر اين صلح جهاني  پر از كثرت در وحدت ميشد و مرزها را هم كه جناب سيدالسادات صدام حسين از قبل برداشته بودند و همه چيز ديگر حل ميشد بله؟ آيا لوجي يا فرمايشي در اين مورد كردند ؟؟؟؟ فريام عذيز نگذار سر سخن را باز كنم  ,
 از همه هموطنان خواهش مي كنم با هموطنان پر مهر بهايي با كمال محبت رفتار بفرمايند چرا كه  ايشان خود نيز گرفتار اين توطئه شومند. وسلام رضا


Manoucher Avaznia

Alborz;

by Manoucher Avaznia on

Alborz; thank you for taking the first constructive step.

 

Nur; your requests are too broad.  It encopases the whole fate of  Baha'ism as a faith.  I don't think Alborz or any of the people who writes about the subject is in the position of determining the fate of a faith.  Can you, please, reduce your conditions to something within their authority that we may enjoy a more tangible discussion here?  This is just a technical request.

 

Regards


NUR

19 Terms and Conditions

by NUR on

These are my terms for discussion with you cultists, as previously delineated on USENET.

 1)      The immediate dissolution of the ITC (international teaching
center); the written and unequivocal dismissal of all haifan bahaim
continental board of councillor members and their underlings
(auxilliary board members, etc); to be followed by the immediate
resignation without equivocation of all 9 members of the bogus and
illegal universal house of justice based in Haifa, occupied Palestine;

2)      The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
globally - in every capacity and function - and the dismissal/
dissolution of every National Spiritual Assembly, regional council and
local assembly tied to your specific organization on the planet; as
well as the immediate and unequivocal suspension of all activities
under the name and rubric of the Haifan Bahai organization;

3)      The immediate and unequivocal dissolution and suspension of all Ruhi Institutes globally;

4)      The immediate and unequivocal relinquishment and full
disclosure in writing of all assets, chattels, investments, funds, stocks, bonds, monies and otherwise belonging to the haifan bahai organization in occupied Palestine, North America, the United Arab Emirates, Europe and throughout the rest of the world; whether immediately tied or tangentially;

5)      The immediate and unequivocal disclosure in writing of all subsidies and all monies and perquisities received by your organization since 1910 - in any capacity whatsoever - by any
individual(s), entities or groups, governments or otherwise, not
immediately tied to your organization, and specifically from the founding of the illegitimate state of Israel in occupied Palestine since 1948;

6)       The immediate financial and documentary auditing of your
entire organization on all continents, beginning with the Bahai world centre in Haifa, Palestine;

7)      The immediate and unequivocal surrender of all legal and
official documentation as well as letters and correspondences of your organization from the dates of 1871 to present;

8)      The immediate and unequivocal surrender of all files and
archives kept in any policing or surveillance capacities by the Haifan Bahai organization whatsoever upon individuals, whether these be files regarding rank-and-file members of the haifan bahaim cult or those put out by it as well as those not;

9)      The immediate and unequivocal surrender in writing of the full names, addresses, duties and capacities of all those serving under
your Internet Committee/Agency based on Mount Carmel and headed by Matthew Weinberg and spread out throughout the globe as well as the full unequivocal disclosure of the date of its establishment and any/all outside aid obtained;

10)     The immediate and unequivocal surrender of the entirety of the archives of all texts and source documents (as well as artefacts) of a specifically scriptural and historical nature to a panel consisting of members of the Bayani community; the Reform Baha'i movement; the Orthodox Baha'i Communities - 1) Marangella and 2) Shoghomonian; the Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant, ex-Baha'i academics of a reputable nature such as Denis Maceoin as well as those such as Margrit Warburg etc, and any others determined in consensus by the Panel;

11)     The immediate and unequivocal disclosure of the facts
regarding the fate of the National Spiritual Assembly of Iran circa 1979 and a complete explanation with documentation as to the reasons for the conspicuous silence of the so-called universal house of justice in world fora afterwards regarding the fate of this body;

12)      The immediate and unequivocal release and publication of the Will and Testament of Shoghi Effendi to the worldwide Baha'i community;

13)     The immediate and unequivocal and unhindered and unimpeded return of all documents, texts, scriptures, histories, papers and effects in your possession belonging to one Mirza Yahya Nuri Subh-i-Azal, which were illegally and fraudulently obtained by one Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri Baha'u'llah in Baghdad and Edirne in the 1860s, to the Bayani community;

14)     The immediate and unequivocal return of all the properties of Bahji to its rightful owners, namely, the descendents of Mirza Muhammad 'Ali ibn al-Baha' and Mirza Badi'ullah ibn al-Baha';

15)     The immediate arrest and extradition of one Hozhabr Yazdani to Iran (or the World Court in the Hague) to stand trial for state sanctioned and protected criminal activities on behalf of your
organization in Iran from the years 1953-1979;

16)     The immediate and unequivocal disclosure in full regarding the criminal hawala networks operated by members of the Haifan Bahai organization throughout Asia, the Middle East, South America, Europe, North America and elsewhere, and an explanation with documentation regarding the nature of such activities and especially the names, addresses and capacities of those persons involved with these criminal hawala networks;

17)      The immediate and unequivocal disclosure of all documents and papers regarding the unexplained murder of one Dan Jordan in New York City in 1982 as well as the immediate and unequivocal disclosure of all documents and papers regarding the suspicious murder of one Hedi Ma'ani in New Zealand;

18)     The immediate arrest and criminal prosecution of misters Peter Khan, Alan Waters, Stephan Hall, Manijeh Rayhani, Robert C Henderson, et al., etc., and others deemed criminally liable, including their various staff, helpers and agents;

19)     The immediate opening of the fake and disputed shrine on Mt Carmel to an independent team of international scientific examiners expert in forensic scientific analysis in a completely uninhibited scientific determination involving the exhumation of the body claimed to be that of Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab, and its free and unfettered scientific determination as to whether this body in fact be that of the person claimed;

a)      No individuals either Haifan Bahai or peripherally tied to
the Baha'i religion (from any denomination) may serve on this team of scientific forensic experts;
b)      An independent and impartial team shall serve as an oversight committee to the work of the scientific team in question which shall report on a daily basis to the aforementioned panel above on the status of the work;
c)      This oversight committee itself shall be selected by a another
independent committee (which itself shall be elected by the Panel)
consisting of 13 individuals who shall vouch for the independence and unassailability in the moral rectitude of the second committee;

These are the only through which I am willing to sit down and seriously discuss anything with you people. Anything less, and the war continues until it is made to be so.

Wahid Azal

[Comment and time of posting recorded in the event of deletion by the webmaster of this site]


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Dear Jahanshah

by Seeking Peace (not verified) on

I have read "ALL" of the comments in this thread, and I have a feeling that there is the possibility of Breakthrough, and perhaps even a spirit of Reconciliation coming about. If you haven't read all of the comments, please take the time to do so.

Since your name was prominently mentioned in this blog, is there a way for you to write a constructive and useful comment to push this Reconciliation process forward? I would appreciate very much if you consider doing something like that.

Merci - And, May God Bless You .......


alborz

Mr. Nur, if you are following this thread...

by alborz on

...please be assured that your sentiments towards the Baha'is has been noted.  However, on more than one occassion I have asked the readership to restate the issue that that they believe motivate you to write your blogs and comments on this site.

In every instance, my request has either not be responded to or there has been an expression of frustration in not knowing or being able to articulate it.

Massoud khan has asked me to reach out to you and ask you to spell out the specifics and I am doing so now.  You are ofcourse under no obligation to respond as neither you or I need to agree on anything nor prove anything to each other.

Perhaps the respective views can emerge from obscurity and the differences can at least be clear to the readership of this site without the use of offensive and inflammatory language.  If you also believe that these conditions can be met, then I and many others, I am sure, await your response.

Alborz


مسعود از امریکا

جناب البرز

مسعود از امریکا


راستش، اطلاعات من در مورد دین و ایین بهایی، بسیار محدود می باشد. و لیکن، من یکی دو چیز راجع به طرز فکر، و رفتار مردم می دانم. به عقیده من، شما دست دوستی را به طرف اقای نور دراز کرده، و ببینید که ایشان چه عکس العملی راجع به این عمل شما نشان می دهند. بسیار مهم است که ایشان فکر کنند که این قدم شما در این مورد واقعی بوده، و نه چیزی تسنعی. بعد از ان، خدا بزرگ است - هر قدمی که قلبتان و وجدانتان شما را راهنمایی می کنند را بر دارید - موفق باشید!