slamming the holocaust card

Niloufar Parsi
by Niloufar Parsi
11-Apr-2010
 

Dr. Norman Finkelstein at the University of Waterloo takes the Holocaust card bull by the horn.

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truthseeker

I HOPE U RIGHT BUT U WON'T BE

by truthseeker on

SORRY 4 NOT GETTING RIGHT BACK RIGHT AWAY. ANYWAY I SO HOPE U ARE RIGHT NILOUFAR FOR U AND UR PPL BUT I KNOW I WON'T BE. BACK IN THE 90'S IN COLLEGE I HAD THE SAME CONVERSATION WITH A NICE EGYPTIAN TEACHER AND VERY NICE PERSON LIKE YOURSELF WHO BELIEVED THAT IRAQ WOULD STAY "CONTAINED" THAT AMERICA DID NOT HAVE SECRET PRISIONS DID NOT DO ANY KIND OF TORTURE, THAT THE WEST BELIEVED IN HUMAN RIGHTS AND THAT US SOLDIERS DID NOT DO WAR CRIMES ANYMORE ON MASS JUST A FEW THUGS UP TO NO GOOD! THAT THE END-TIMERS WOULD NOT GET THEY FINAL WAY. NO MOUNTAINS FALLING FROM THE SKY. AND NO LAKES OF BLOOD WERE ARE WE NOW! NO OIL IN ISRAEL OR RATHER IN GAZA. A SUPER MASS AMOUNT (THAT WILL CHANGE THE BALANCE OF POWER IN THE SUB-CONTINENT.) OF THE THIRD TEMPLE AND HARLOT IN PURPLE. NO IN ALL TRUST IS FOR SUCKERS.

PLEASE NOT TRUST THE WEST US AND EPS UK. YOU KNOW WHAT THAT COUNTRY IS LIKE WE ARE JUST A CHILD ABUSER WHO WILL BUY YOU LIKE U AN ICE CREAM AFTERWARDS AT BEST AND AT WORST YOU GET WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN IRAQ. AND WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO TO IRAN. THEN TAKE A BREAK LET THE ROT SET IN AND DO IT TO SAUDI. TONY BLAIR AND HIS FLUNKIES HAVE ALREADY WORKED THAT ONE OUT. THE POVETY LEVEL IN EGYPT AND THE REST OF THE MIDDLE EAST IS BEING USED AS THE BREEDING GROUND JUST LIKE A SMASHED WW1 GERMAN WAS FOR THE NAZIS PARTY. THE CREDIT CRUNCH IS DESIGN TO LEAVE IRAN NO HIDDING PLACE JUST HOW THE GREAT DEPRESSION GOT YOU WW2!

IRAN HAS BEEN SET UP FROM YEARS AGO THE SHAH WAS PUT IN TO GET THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION. GET YOU TO ATTACK ISRAEL AND TAKE THE BLAME FOR OBAMAS ASSASSINATION TO COME, "THE GREAT LEADER SHALL SUCCUMB" (THE CHANNEL FOUR MOVIE DEATH OF A PRESIDENT SHOWED THEM HOW TO PROTECT A PRESIDENT LIKE A TEST AUDIENCE WATCHING A MOVIE BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY TAUGHT THEM HOW TO MAKE SURE YOUR PLAN WORKS TO KILL ONE THEN ALL IRANIANS WILL BE TO BLAME JUST LIKE WHAT HAPPEN TO THE GERMANS WITH WWI. THEN THEY WILL JUST COME FOR YOU. THERE PLAN OF INVASION AND ATTACK IN QUITE CLEVER AND YET SO SIMPLE WITH HALF OF IT COPIED FROM AND OLD TV SHOW!) AND HILLARY TAKING HIS PLACE. IF YOU ARE STILL LIVING IN IRAN PLEASE HAVE AN ESCAPE PLAN READY FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY IF NOT GET A GUN AND LEARN HOW TO USE IT. AND DO NOT LET THEM TAKE YOU OR YOUR LOVE ONES ALIVE. AS U KNOW WHAT THEY WILL DO!

US AND UK MILITARY HAVE TRAINED FOR IRAN LOTS OF THEM HAVE BETS ON WHO WILL GET TO DO (RAPE) A PERSIAN GIRL FIRST, TAKING THEIR UNDERWAER OR HIJABS AS A TROPHEY JUST LIKE THEIR ARE DOING IN IRAQ.

THIS IS ALL BEING DONE ONE STEP AT A TIME. AS OBAMA IS JUST THE NICE GUY THE CHAMBERLAND WITH "PEACE IN OUR TIME" ALL OVER AGAIN. YOUR SCIENCE IS ABOUT TO OVERTAKE OURS. YOUR NATION HAS EVERY SINGLE MINERAL GOING IN IT. NOT ONLY OIL AND GAS. BUT THE NEW MINERAL DEPOSTIES NEEDED FOR THE NEW SUPER NUCLEAR REACTORS BEING BUILT IN FRANCE AND US AND WITH THE UK GETTING READY TO BUILD THEM TO.

THE GOOD PPL OF IRAQ THOUGHT ALL OF THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN THAT THE WEST WOULD HELP THEM AND FREE THEY ARE NOT INTEREST IN THAT (IT IS EQUAL PLUS ONE ALL THE WAY!). AND THE US WERE CIVILIZED PPL NOW THEY KNOW THE TRUTH. I HOPE AND PRAY YOU AND YOUR PPL NEVER HAVE TO FIND THIS OUT. BUT I KNOW YOU WILL. PLEASE LISTEN PLEASE LEARN WE CAN STOP THEM, WE CAN HEAD THEM OFF AT THE PASS. WE JUST HAVE TO BE MORE CLEVERER THAN THEY ARE. QUESTION IS ARE U? AM I? IS ANYONE? AS THE BEST ANYONE CAN DO IS JUST THROW A SHOE AND EVEN THEN THEY MISSED! 

 


Niloufar Parsi

truthseeker

by Niloufar Parsi on

i don't believe that there is any such project planned. it is not about attacking muslims at all. it is described and seen that way by many, but it cannot be the case. i will try to elaborate:

emotions aside, any serious project to wipe out muslims would have to be quite different from what we have seen so far. it would need to be something similar to what the nazis did to the jews or the americans to the natives. we have seen nothing of the sort against muslims, other than in a tiny corner (palestine). there are plenty of chemical and biological weapons for example that could wipe out whole populations, and they could be deployed without anyone knowing about it. also, if push came to shove, there are many nuclear weapons that could do the job real fast. there is a type that only kills living beings and leaves most structures in tact. now if you want to get the oil minus the people, that is what you would do. but nothing like this is being done. 

so, what is actually happening? in my opinion, the current treatment of muslims today has been designed to take the place of the old cold war with the former soviet union. iran is currently at the forefront of this, and is being falsely depicted as a leader promoting an evil ideology, only it is not called communism. this political juxtaposition of 'good versus evil' serves the elites of both sides quite well, while nothing major really takes effect IF the power balance is quite even. iran is clearly not on a par with the US, but it does have two extremely important advantages that come to mind:

first, it has risen (or been pushed) to this 'leadership rank' at exactly a moment of great weakness in the american empire. virtually down on her knees (economically) and slapped around on the military front too by those who resist foreign occupation.

second, iran 'behaves' like a leader, aggressively and without hesitation. this gives her a real advantage over the other side that is incoherent, hesitant and really quite lost in a hugely altered world where the centre of economic gravity has shifted to asia - iran's territory, so to speak.

there is no doomsday coming, at least not for muslims or iran. it is quite the opposite. asia's star is on the rise. obama's real job is to soften the landing for a crumbling empire.


truthseeker

WHO DO I MEAN?

by truthseeker on

I CANNOT CALL MYSELF A MUSLIM IF I WAS I WOULD HAVE PUT A STOP TO ALL THIS CRUELTY ONCE AND FOR ALL FOR EVERYONE. ISLAM TRUE ISLAM LIKE ALL FAITHS IS SUPPOSE 2 BE ABOUT JUSTICE AND PEACE 4 ALL. BUT MOST PPL DO NOT WANT TO DO GREAT AND GOOD THINGS MOST DO NOT WANT TO PROTECT ALL WOMEN LIKE THEY WERE THEIR SISTER AND ALL CHILDREN LIKE THEY WERE THEIR VERY OWN. AND AS FOR LAND WE KNOW HOW THIS WILL PLAY OUT TWO BLOODY ROADS LAY AHEAD WHICH WILL LEAD TO THE END-TIMERS GETTING THIER RAPTURE AND SETTING THE WHOLE ON FIRE.

OR THE SECOND ARABS AND PERSIAN PPL GOING THE WAY OF THE NATIVE AMERICANS AND THE MIDDLE EAST TO NORTH AFRICA TO PAKASTIAN ALL BECOMEING PART OF THE E.U SUPERSTATE BY 2060 PLUS. WITH GLOBAL WARMING LEADING TO FURTILE LAND BECOMING DESERT AND DESERT BECOMING? WERE IS THERE LOTS OF DESERT?

AS IT TOOK THEM HUNDRED YEARS DO WIPE OUT THE INDIANS THEY WILL DO IT TI MIDDLE EASTERN PPL ARAB/PERSIANS AND ALL THE OTHER NON-WHITE OTHERS IN HALF THE TIME. UNLESS U ALL GET CLEVER AND READ BETWEEN THE LINES.


Niloufar Parsi

truthseeker

by Niloufar Parsi on

on war etc, there is now a clear break between jews in the US and israel. while the great majority of jews in america support obama's new approach (it is 'new' in 'relative' terms), israelis totally dislike and distrust him. this is good news. we will see a widening gap between the 2 belligerent countries with the us being the more rational player.

Peace


Niloufar Parsi

truthseeker

by Niloufar Parsi on

how can i break it to you? there is no easy way, but here it goes:

there are no absolute truths. it's all relative :)

that's just my own opinion of course. i can't possibly claim that it is an absolute truth. there you go: i got stumped by my own logic!

ps i have no idea who those characters are! checked the names in google though. problem is, i don't watch twilight zone!


Niloufar Parsi

rosie jan

by Niloufar Parsi on

sorry i did nto get back to you earlier. it's partly because i can see that we see eye to eye on most of the points. much more than i had thought earlier in the discussion. just 2 quick points:

- you know i have never used the term 'zionazi', and would follow you in discouraging others from using it too

- i never actually said anyone was 'whining about the holocaust'. it is what you saw in my text, but that came more from you past experiences than what i wrote, if i am not mistaken.

Peace


Was Rosie

Who do you mean by 'U', Truth Seeker?

by Was Rosie on

You're answering Ayhab, right? Do you mean the Muslims? Do you mean the Jews and the Christians want the Muslims' land?

And if so, why did you say 'your' land, when you're a Muslim? Aren't you a Muslim too, Truth Seeker? 

Robin


truthseeker

THEY WILL NOT DO THAT THEY

by truthseeker on

THEY WILL NOT DO THAT THEY WANT YOUR LAND AND THEIR RAPTURE THEY ARE GETTING RID OF U ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.


Was Rosie

Ayhab,

by Was Rosie on

????????????????????????????????????

 


capt_ayhab

It is all about Jews

by capt_ayhab on

World, America, specially  Muslims have to pay for what Christians did to Jews and the other way around.

Request............ Jews and Christians, please tear each other apart as you have been for 2010 years........... leave us the Muslims out of it.

 

 

-YT 


nmirdamadi

Finkelstein deserves a medal for taking on these forces

by nmirdamadi on

This is not about Israel, it is not about Jews, it is about ringtwing nut cases against sane people. And among the sane people, American Jews hold some of teh most prominent positions - Finkelstein, Naomi Klein, Chomsky etc.

See what the ringthwing neocons are trying to do in the Iranian American community through their MKO proxie

 


Was Rosie

yes thats my point 2 u truthCker cuz

by Was Rosie on

 

when u do discover the truth how will u let us no what it is if we cant understand u?  


truthseeker

truthCker eye like it. i luv

by truthseeker on

truthCker eye like it. i luv it God i could do this all night. laughing out loud! sorry u had trouble understanding me. it is important that we all do that! as soon as we can understand each other we can then make things better 4 each other. for each other!


Was Rosie

truthseeker

by Was Rosie on

There, now that was an excellent start! You used ALL CAPS for improved visibility, hence easier readability! lol Now if you could juuuuust please spell out 2 (but be carefu!, don't forget it could be 'to', 'too'. 'two' or even 'tu' if it's Spanish or French...), then we could...alright alright have it ur way...

its true, we r like children xcept w/tanx & guns, don't 4get bombs, theyre much worse, yes its a lot like lord of the flies, did u read the book or c the movie or both? what about dr strangelove did u c it? so anyway u & i r both worried about the same thing global xtinction & who cares anyway? well anyway so my idea is we need 2 try to 2 communicate better 2 try 2 understand each other, i mean u & me & niloufar, 4get about ayhab he's hopeless, r u still out there ayhab my pet? so truthCker why dont u tell me some of the ideas u wrote in ur post below the 1 w/mel gibson & his zionist masters in some format most people here will b able 2 understand, which means definitely not the 1 im writing 2 u in now.


truthseeker

u guys r just showing ur

by truthseeker on

u guys r just showing ur age LOL. NOT U NILOUFAR! U R QUEEN OF THE COUGARS! (Just teasing!) BUT SERIOUSLY I DON'T THINK THEIR R ANY ADULTS LEFT? WE SEEM 2 BE ACTING TOWARDS EACH OTHER LIKE WERE EIGHT YEAR OLDS WITH TANKS AND GUNS ANYWAY, FROM COUNTRY 2 COUNTRY, FAITH 2 FAITH AND SO ON ANYWAY? THIS IS JUST LORD OF THE FLIES ON A GLOBAL SCALE!


Was Rosie

Mon capitain,

by Was Rosie on

Honestly, Ayhab, no I don't. And I don't think you get mine either! ;oP

But you tend to sail around here like you have a girl in every port. If you want us to clarify this, let me know. Otherwise I reserve my right to remain (relatively) silent. But truth be told, I think we could both benefit from a little chat about this, o thou who art defintely NOT fixated on words (as long as they are thine own..lo kheili loud...).

Ayhab, sometimes you crack me up!!! ;o)))

________________

(oh yeah and ps i figured out what happened with that dictionary of yours. there is a third meaning of 'recepcion' in spanish...but i'll keep it a secret for now...)


capt_ayhab

Rose

by capt_ayhab on

Sweetheart...........

let us not to get fixated on words. Let us step back and try and see the forest from the trees.

Get my meaning?

-YT 


Was Rosie

'Truth' seeker / PP

by Was Rosie on

I second the motion:

____________________________

Dear truthseeker

by Peter Pan on

Your name encouraged me:

I leave the response to the substance of your comment to the better people. However I am going to ask you this:

Please, I mean PLEASE, next time do a better format. OK buddy? We're not bunch of teenies texting each other; I know, my name is misleading.

Thanx  4eve... I mean: Thank you forever.

__________________________

In such a small sampling, we can assume others share his opinion. I do. I didn't even read your first post the first time I read the thread because it was too hard to follow. I put myself through the agony while reading up the thread again when Niloufar and I started getting into a detailed discussion.

If you are oblvious to a simple, reasonable request from a reasonable (and gracious) member of your audience who represents others (I mean PP, not me), where is your credibility?  What are you trying to accomplish? Suggest you adjust your most recent post to conform to the type of format used here (full words, clear punctuation, paragraph divisions, etc...ya know, 'adult' stuff...). Then, if you're amenable, here's the real Pepsi Challenge:

just for fun, address it to Niloufar AND ME as though you think I have at least the brain of a rabbit and you would like to make some impact on it, and see what happens.

Just for fun. ;o)

Robin


Was Rosie

PS Niloufar, obviously... / teachable moment

by Was Rosie on

what I just posted cross-posted with yours (due to length, this was bound to happen...bear that in mind). 

Clarifying one part, what I meant by NF's teachable moment was that in better circumstances he could have gone on to specific cases, specific actions and explained how they are similar to the Nazis'. 

-also, now you can use the word 'whine' with ME lol not because I necessarily buy it, but because I understand where you are coming from (but not here on the thread, please...). But  like I said...preaching to the converted........lol again


Was Rosie

Language and perspectives

by Was Rosie on

 Okay, so I'm going to put aside for now the first half of your post on top of my (very) long one and go to the second half.

_________________________

 there is a core issue that you are driving at. comparing israel with nazi germany is counterproductive.

Well, yes, that is a core issue. Now looking at The G--l's statement (oops! sorry, I'm not supposed to talk about The Girl) to Finkelstein, due to its inarticulateness it is hard to tell the extent to which he drew the parallel--did he say they act like Nazis? sometimes do things that resemble Nazi tactics? who did he say does this? did he say the Nazi and Israeli acts were equal in dimension, similar or on a very different scale?...none of these things do we know.

What we can  be pretty sure of, though, is that he did not say the word Zionazis or say they ARE Nazis--all, some, any of them, government, IDF, settlers, a large part of the Israeli population, all of these plus Jews all over the world, doesn't matter, we can rest assured he did not say these things: Zionazis, or you or they ARE Nazis. These two sre the 'red alerts', the first and second most dangerous levels of this type of discourse, which must never be used in a public format for both ethical and pragmatic reasons (and also because they are inaccurate. Israelis, Jews, IDF, Zionists, none of these are Nazis because only Nazis were Nazis, even neo-Nazis are not Nazis because the Nazi party no longer exists).

Then we move down to the similes level--orange and yellow alert--which can sometimes be used, where there are numerous gradiations (and innumerable variatons depending on context-which audience, who is the speaker, what is the exact topic, etc). Israel, Israelis, the IDF, the settlers, whoever are like Nazis, act like Nazis (in general, in this specific context, etc)., or (sometimes, often, always) employ tactics like the Nazis (or that resemble or are similar to,--these being 'softer' word choices)...

I am not belaboring a point. I am not being picayune.. I am postulating a scale, a spectrum in this Nazifying discourse ranging from red alerts (which are non-negotiable, they should be taboo--Zionazi, and You ARE, they ARE Nazis, Israel IS a Nazi state..)  through orange ones down through yellow which are fluid depending on the context and content. These may or may not be good strategy (and/or good ethics or manners or simple show of human empathy...) depending on how, when, why, where they are used.

Unfortunately it never gets below the level of yellow alert. Once you can freely tell a group with a sizable Jewish faction: This Wall is creating another Warsaw Ghetto! Israel just like the Nazis and must be brought to justice! There must be another Nurnburg! (if that is what you believe...), you are preaching to the converted (no pun intended).

So you ALWAYS have to watch your back in terms of choosing your words and topics in this type of public discourse, you can never get too comfortable with it or be too careful about pushing buttons. What I feel is this: once the speaker knows (s)he has won over or started to win over a lot of the Zionists in the audience, if (s)he is sensitive to the right moment, then with tact and patience and careful modulation of the voice and body language, it can be a very productive thing to inject these Nazi parallels into public discourse where a sizable faction are Zionists--

(although it is rather interesting to contemplate a parallel universe in which that comparison were never made..)

_____________

For instance, putting aside however Finkelstein got there--terrible argument with the previous questioner, just because of the accumulaton of all the pressure over time, bad hair day, something about this particular G--l that really ticked him off--for some unknown reason, at a certain point Finkelstein lost it (played the card he didn't want to play) and in so doing won the (relative) sympathy of his audience (so much so that he was delighted with them at the end...). Had he had more time this would've been a great opportunity (we call it a 'teachable moment' in education jargon) to bring up these parallels such as the Ghetto and the Wall and so forth, and he probably would've made an even bigger dent in this formerly very hostile faction. However he still would've had to be very careful with the choice of words, body language and tone.

(And just to interject once more, I still cannot for the life of me fathom why he doesn't like to play this card!!??? I think he should play every time he speaks...lol)

My main point is that we should not make it a rule of thumb to avoid this Nazi parallel discourse, we should just be really, really careful how it is broached. Come to think of it, the very word 'broached' I just wrote says a lot. The subject has to be broached, not just brought up, otherwise there is going to be a disaster.

not the prettiest side of his approach. the israelis are also very quick to describe all their opponents as anti-semites or even nazi-sympathizers. quite regularly and without justification. to a great extent, rosie, the israelis have brought this onto themselves. you and i know that the use of such comparisons with nazi germany is growing against israel. and you are right: it is ugly.

Yes, you are right and it is just feeding the beast. At the same time yes, at times it is also just ugly in and of itself. My point in bringing up to you below (or harping on???) this 'whine' issue is so that you can push out the envelope a bit and understand what other language pushes just as incendiary buttons as this explicit Nazi language. 'Whining about Holocaust' (whether referring to one whiner--the G--l,  a whole faction of whiners at one event, many, all events, be their whining spontaneous, planned, or trained by the CIA,  be it all Orthodox are whiners, some Orthodox, all Zionists, most Zionists, some Jews, many Jews, my Jewish boss...)--DOESN'T MATTER how it comes up or how you qualify it--for us it's no different from explicit Nazi language.  So it's a red alert too. Non-negotiable, just like You ARE a Nazi.  Because...children whine about not getting a second helping of desert (Maaaaaaa, I want s'more chocolate puuuuuuuuuudding..), can you see how we hear it now?

So it isn't really a question of what you said, or even meant to say, it's just the way things are.

____________________________

though i have to say, it is a bit stifling (am not talking about you) that there so many things one is not allowed to talk about when it comes to jews. the mere mention of certain words triggers highly emotional responses,

Absolutely. You might be surprised at the level of rage I felt in my gut for a long while while trying to draft a post about this 'whine' issue. It is a survival instinct, the organism's instinctual way of preparing to fight in the face of a threat to life.  Because for us, it's a (perceived) REAL threat.

So the way we would think (consciously, subconsciously, or preconsciously...) about this 'whine about the Holocaust' language goes something like this: Uh oh. She said the chubby girl whines about the Holocaust. She thinks the Holocaust can be talked about like chocolate pudding; that it is a whine-aboutable thing. What would happen if another Hitler were rising? Since she doesn't think the Holocaust is such a big deal, would she look the other way? join them? And that's why you have this gut-level rage, these easily pushed buttons, you see. It's the fight for survival instinct pathologized.

But the 'fight' instinct is the other side of the 'flight' instinct. So that's where the two parts of the dance troupe come in, the guy screaming 'The Jews did not take arms against the Germans!", he is fighting. The chubby girl, the whiney one, she is fleeing under the cover of her tears (don't harm me, please, I'm so weak...).

You might be surprised to understand that many times my mother said to my sister and me growing up in this very ominous, frightened tone choked with rage: Don't think it couldn't happen here. And she was second generation--she and her family didn't even know of any relatives in Europe during WWII!  And yet she even had a kind of survivor's guilt, and all these nightmares about the Nazis, you see how button-pushable we are? So yes, you have to be very careful with the language and the tone you use, what words you can and can't say and when and how, so that we won't 'freak out'.

Taking me as a litmus test, as a Jewish person with a very high tolerance level for the  type of language used in the discourse, we can be pretty sure that if I get upset, almost all other Jewish people will too, and most a lot worse than me...so 'whine' is a no-no. But the word itself is not as important as the door it can open up for you as to what kinds of language may be seen as offensive, especially the real button pushers.

 


truthseeker

give the girl an oscar

by truthseeker on

give the girl an oscar niloufar that is what i would do. she is an actor almost as good as angelina phony joile herself. she is not jewish if she was she would be the first 2 tell the truth. that's what real jewish ppl, christians and muslims and even jedi's (their a faith here in the u.k it's true!) do. she is not even pro israel if she was she would trying 2 save israel from it's end-timer backed creation and third temple impending destruction. plus also my i ask u niluofar what do u or anyone else think about the rotten foundations that r being laid here. "the jews are to blame for all the wars in the world" mel gibsons on a drunken night saying what he always has said but because he went against his zionist masters with the passion they stopped covering 4 him. but what a quote zionist jews have control of hollywood wall street and work 4 the ppl who backed hitler iraq was done 4 irsael's safety not u.k europe or even the u.s. aipac is THE polictical force in america and beyond backing both rep and demo. hollywood movies (300, zohan) and tv r pro israel 2 the max. while some easy smoothing is being given 2 a p*ssed off american public with isaeli character not feeling so great about their homeland just 4 now. no in all a truly dangerous trap is now set. all jewish ppl will be blamed 4 this and that is NOT right. but none of what has been going is ever right. what does anyone think can be done 2 stop all jewish ppl getting the blame 4 this. with now  even neo Nazis here in england pretending 2 be more outraged on what has happen in iraq than most british ppl. thus with all said and done these are truly crazy times up is down, down is up and the left is more right than right and so on. maybe we r just all really in the matrix and the thing is breaking down now?    


Niloufar Parsi

rosie aziz

by Niloufar Parsi on

i went through the video again. actually, the start of the chat is less controversial than i had thought from the tone of some of your comments. she said that he had called certain members of the audience 'nazis'. and then bursts into tears that may actually be false. she did first accuse him of calling all jews nazis, then changed her line, but the point had been made, and when she rams it home with 'deeply offensive' to 'germans' and 'jews', she bursts into tears and the victim act is perfected.

what is the problem with his reaction? what do we know about who he had called a nazi and why? do you think he would have been considering their religion when he did that? don't forget he is a jew.

more generally, rosie, i find crying in a public debate rather undignified, and rarely found it to be genuine. i have been with many palestinian women in such meetings. they do not cry in debates. they cry at home. most poor single mothers do not make it a habit of crying about their plight in public - american game show culture aside -  since they prefer to do that in private. but zionists thrive on tearjerkers as a matter of predictable routine. i totally understand where is coming from.

re. the reporter, sure am interested!


Was Rosie

Before I forget..

by Was Rosie on

A very close friend of mine is a Czech activist/reporter. She was in Gaza last year and has interviewed Finkelstein. Do you want to get in touch with her? She is on facebook. I get things from her about Finkelstein, they talk about him on her Wall, etc. Do you want to contact her?.

_________________

I am having a harder time drafting these posts than any posts before. I think it is worth it though.  While I work on the full reply, let me just throw out one question:

You wrote:

i also don't have much sympathy for her whining and shedding tears in a public political debate.

I ask: If she were a Palestinian girl at a public political debate asking an Israeli a question, would you say the same thing?  What if it were my Czech friend Jana who is a bit older and more mature returning from Gaza and addressing a New York Times editor about the paper's biases and recounting  what she had seen?

Or a poor black single mother with college-age children asking a question to someone in a debate who was against affirmative action? Or a gay college kid from a small town who'd been teased very badly to a high university official who was against making stricter hate speech rules?

If the answer is 'yes' , you would say the same thing, then what you mean when you say you 'don't have much sympathy' is a statement of your views on proper conduct in a public forum. If the answer is 'no', you would not say the same thing, it's different. This needs to be clarified.

I am working on the rest of the reply. 

Robin

PS  NP, I hope you understand that this is not about The G--l, it's about a larger issue. :o)

 


Niloufar Parsi

rosie jan

by Niloufar Parsi on

it is a little difficult to see or talk about a certain characteristic as 'jewish'. it goes against the grain with me. i did not say (at least i did not mean to say) that jews whine about the holocaust. not at all. the girl is whining in the video, and if you are right, she is doing it because finkelstein compared israel with germany (or zionists with nazis, but NOT jews with germans). i have seen this staged whining in action Many times, and they do it with purpose and in the most calculated manner. again, i admit, this particular girl may not be doing it necessarily. i can't prove it with her, but believe me, the zionist student groups do it all the time. it is a tried and test method that has its screenplay produced by aipac.

Peace


Was Rosie

Here, I found my blog from last year, the one about

by Was Rosie on

the one about the banner. Working on a fuller reply to your post. It's difficult. It gets a bit touchy. So for now I'll just throw this out:

 ________________________

Niloufar, you don't understand us. And I do not use the word 'us' lightly. I very rarely use it to refer to the Jewish population and myself. I broke largely with that population long ago. But that's not the point here.The point is this is the second time on this website I have heard someone say a Jew or Jews ''whines" about the Holocaust. You do not understand us.

Dont say this. Ever. Expunge it from your lexicon. Then try not to think it. Because this kind of trend is spreading very quickly and if it continues there will be limbs of little Palestinian children flying all over the  place til Kingdom Come. You must trust me on that.

It's excellent that you're against the chronic comparison of Israel with Nazi Germany in the public discourse, whether for pragmatic or ethical reasons. So let's try to movo on from there to'whining'. And  see what happens next.

___________________

I'm against the imprisonment or censoring of Holocaust deniers. I am aware that the term is in itself propaganda. I read with interest the thoughts about the numbers of dead, the engineer that went to Auschwitz and said the mass gassings couldn't've taken place, and all that. I take no offense, I find it all interesting. I can't stand the things Israel does, and I don't even want there to be an Israel per se, but an Israel/Palestine.

But  Niloufar, you don't understand us.

Okay anyway, I'll try not to talk more about the g--l. 

___________________

This is the blog about the banner:

//iranian.com/main/blog/rosie-roxy-roshan/zionazis

THis one's overwritten, especially toward the end a little hard to follow. But the second half should be of interest. It discusses the use of the term 'Zionazis' here and the language of some people here about the Holocaust.

//iranian.com/main/blog/rosie-t/war-website-and-concession

This one I wrote right after the Gaza treaty. It was some ideas I had about the situation from I guess you could say a kind of historical evolutionary perspective.

http://iranian.com/main/blog/rosie-roxy-roshan/nazi-state-israel-state-mind-part-i-hiroshima-1

Try to understand us.

 

 

 

 


Niloufar Parsi

rosie jan

by Niloufar Parsi on

i wasn't expecting to get what i want!

that is a detailed analysis of quite a short video. there are so many facets to the situation, and the fact that you have not been to such events should tell you that you cannot assume too much on the basis of a three-minute video most of which is focussed on one man with his voice being the only one going straight into the microphone other than the questioner.

then there is the issue of talking to a crowd versus talking to a young girl face to face. he is answering an individual's question but speaking to a large crowd. there is a long queue of people waiting to ask questions and the room is mildly agitated. she is referring to a speech we have not heard and we cannot judge his particular reaction, not knowing what else was said. but we can make very good judgement of what message he is trying to give. i don't think the exchange with the girl is a big part of the picture. 

i also don't have much sympathy for her whining and shedding tears in a public political debate. i don't see any excuse for rowdy crown behaviour in a debate. they have no right to disrupt a speech because he use a tern they did not like. and the term 'crocodile tears' is very apt in what i have seen in public debates on zionism over and over again. it is part of the tactic. when they are losing a debate, they first play the holocaust card, usually with tears, and if that does not work they send in the shouting mob.

now if you see some particular innocence in this girl, you may be right. about her. but the debate is not about her. he has a whole crowd to respond to.

but aside from all this (and let's not stay on the girl too long pls) there is a core issue that you are driving at. comparing israel with nazi germany is counterproductive. this is not the prettiest side of his approach. the israelis are also very quick to describe all their opponents as anti-semites or even nazi-sympathizers. quite regularly and without justification. to a great extent, rosie, the israelis have brought this onto themselves. you and i know that the use of such comparisons with nazi germany is growing against israel. and you are right: it is ugly.

though i have to say, it is a bit stifling (am not talking about you) that there so many things one is not allowed to talk about when it comes to jews. the mere mention of certain words triggers highly emotional responses, and the denial of the holocaust can land people in jail. it is not that i want to see and hear people do such a stupid thing as to deny the holocaust. what i wonder is: why the holocaust and no any other atrocity in human history? there were many. and the further you get from the western hemisphere, the bigger becomes this question. yes there were certain reasons this happened in the west, but why is the ban in the west rammed down the throat of everyone else?

but the main message in this video is none of that. he is saying that it is immoral to play the holocaust card to justify israeli atrocities. those who do so denigrate those who suffered in the holocaust. such tears are crocodile tears. 

Peace


Was Rosie

Hi, we cross-posted /PS

by Was Rosie on

True, no rush. Thanks for reminding me. That's actually a better way to get to the meat of the matter.

PS  When I said point by point was the best way to proceed, I meant it was the best way for ME to proceed on that particular post...not necessarily you. :o)


Was Rosie

Okay, Niloufar,

by Was Rosie on

here goes, point by point, which I felt was the best way to go.

so good to see you here :) what's this about 'staying away' or blocking the site?

 This isn't the place for this. I'll explain  elsewhere.  

____________________

about the girl: i think you are being romantic.

Not sure I agree with the exact word, but I did go back and tone down some of the more dramatic parts on my first post.

i also think you identify with her from your own experience (was it the hate banner you once came across among the anti-zionist camp? i remember you writing something about that).

Yes, I did.I told how I was with the anti-Zionist camp. The banner by two of my Arab friends said ONE MENACHEM BEGIN =ONE MILLION HITLERS. I didn't find it to be hate speech, just DUMB speech, but it devastated me nonetheless It's natural for me to identify on some level with the girl, so much so that I questoin whether her tears are amphibious. ;oP  Notice your use of the term 'hate speech'. That's the way she perceived Finikelstein's parallels with the Nazis.

here's my take:

- we did not see the background to the question raised

No, we didn't, and I thought about that a lot and I have quite a bit to say about it actually. (insert: unfortunately, not yet, not in this post...oy vey...)

 or even hear what the question was.

Her 'question' was easily audible to me, don't understand why you didn't hear it, please explain.  I realized I was wrong when I said in my first post that Finkelstein interrupted her.  Upon watching the video again (and again and again...) she appears to have been finished with her statement. (It wasn't actually a question). This is what she said:

Hi. Um...during your speech you made a lot of references to the Jewish people as well as other people in your audience , not Jewish people in general but certain people especially in your audience to Nazis. (starts to cry)  Now that is extremely offensive to certain people who are German, and also extremely offensive to certain people who suffered under Nazi rule. (Didn't I tell ya? Not exactly a seasoned public speaker...)

 let's not read too much into what she is exactly saying.

Because he interrupted--her--as I said he actually didn't, but if you thought he did, it doesn't speak very highly of him--or because you didn't hear clearly?

 he interprets it in a certain way, and there is no reason to refute it unless we know -

Refute what? Her statement or his answer?  Because if there's no reason to refute her (which presumably you might want to do, because I don't), then there's no reason to accept his response either, neither in content nor in tone.

the girl's tears don't mean much in that sense.

Again, if that's the case, one can't defend his responding the way he did either (crocodile tears, doesn't respect them, i.e. her, because it means she's a hypocrite). The problem imho is that you assume her tears are crocodile so much so that you don't even think it's important what she said. Well, to me, anyway, that's a problem.

- it is one man against a room full of angry, screaming zionists

No, at the beginning it's one well-known seasoned paid speaker against a shy, chubby, nervous, friendly girl.

The scrreaming actually starts not even when he said he didn't respect 'that'; it started, mildly, from only a few people, when he first said 'crocodile tears', the general heckling only started when he repeated it, and more forcefully.

together with a more silent majority. notice how they clap when he actually tells them to 'shut up'?

Yes, I did notice. Not sure they were a majority though, although since (I assume) it's not a particularly Jewish school that would make sense.

the microphone records,...(missing...will put in...)

I heard clear as a bell that he was the one being shouted down! Are you sure there's nothing wrong with the microphone on your computer? ;O)

 and that can be interpreted as him being bullish. but the pictures tell a different story.

Pictures or words of him and them?

 i think it is quite the opposite. he is trying to get space for his voice to be heard and he does it very effectively

Yes, he is trying to get space to be heard after he repeated crocodile tears knowing full well how upsetting that would be to the Zionist faction (not to mention the poor--or evil???--girl), since he has been through this situation maybe nine million times. This is corroborated at the end where his voice over says 'I never had a crowd like that before. They were nice!"

That statement of his at the end I feel requires very close scrutiny and I confess I didn't listen the first time til the end because I'm very familiar with both his family background and his ideas, and his manner turned me off so much that I turned the video off right before it ended.

- ever been to such debates at university? am sure you have. i remember you writing about some rallies you went to before.

No, not really. Which is a big plus in terms of my perceptions being important, because I approach the video in and of itself  with no particular expectations based on past experience. I think that may be part of the reason why I was so struck by what I still insist was his abuse of power with the girl.

he is not a lecturer. he is a guest speaker at a political debate.

How did you know it was a debate? Again, seriously, no irony. In any case, during the Q & A he wasn't debating anyone. Yes, he is a guest speaker but he's a guest speaker with about 20 years experience as a college professor at a podium in front of an auditorium consisting mainly of college students. 

 there is a Huge difference, and he - just like we saw with ahmadinejad a few years ago at was it princeton or berkley? - is being heckled and denied his right to free speech.

I saw Ahmadinejad's famous 'debate' haha with Bolinger at Columbia, is that the one you're thinking of? Whatever Ahmadinejad said, he didn't for example answer a gay person's question to him directly with 'We don't have people like you in Iran'. (come to think of it, I wonder if any 'progressive' gays were sorely tempted to join in the heckling then, but had to restrain themselves because the Zionist heckling was 'reactioary')

not saying AN is a free speech angel! just that we have seen this in the US before whenever someone tackles israel. i know from my own experience

Again, I don't have that experience. I have the experience of this video and what I find fascinating upon viewing again (and again and again) is that once Finkelstein DID 'play the Holocaust card' the Zionists became progressively more and more quiet, to such extent that at the end he found them 'nice'. So I wonder why he doesn't like to play that card, or if he ever tried before, because it seemed to be a winner.

. that it was a Constant feature of debates on zionism in british universities, i mean both the crocodile tears and the violent heckling - often in that order and often in succession.

 Like I said I don't have this experience. But also,I thought I made it clear in my first post that I'm not convinced they were crocodile tears (the girl's, I mean) but you seem to be using it here as though you think I am. As though it's a simple fact, like grass is green.So I'm wondering why? Again, no irony, but I rally would like to know.

When you say in that order do you mean by the same person or by different people in the same group?

- look at his actual interviews on you tube. i have rarely seen someone more calm, together and totally committed as this man.

Actually I would go further, and say that in the ones I watched after your suggestion here that I do so, he is mild-mannered and self-effacing. Which again brings me back to the fact that I found this video scenario more and more complex as I kept viewing it (again and again and again.) Unfortunately, I could not find one of a Q & A at a university with a sizable Zionist faction in the audience to compare this one with. I really hoped I would.

check out his lebanese interview i posted below. i think he has a fabulous style. he is no peacenik, but he is no bully either. he is a remedy to zionist bullying.

I'm sorry, Niloufar, I found him to be a big bully with that girl HERE and whatever ensued started with that. Again the real heckling didn't begin until after he said (growled?) 'crocodile tears' for the second time. Yes, the guy has no doubt been heckled and heckled to the nines, so why does he start off like this? Did he go there to win a heart or mind or two or did he go there to fight against the IDF in the trenches of that podium?

Another thing I said in my first post that bears repeating: one of his basic premises is that a privileged Jewish establishment misleads people. So why her? Why did she become the brunt of such nastiness? She never even said what she thinks about the plight of the Palestinian people, her only stated concern was with the use of the word Nazi. Theoretically she could sympathize with the Palestinians, to greater or lesser extent, she could  be a Christian of German descent, theoretically. What I mean is, what does he know about her and why her?

but that is just me :)

Yes, Niloufar, and you and I have very similar politics so it can't be 'just' your take or 'just' my take. If we don't arrive at some kind of agreement on at least one of the points we differ on, then we have failed, and can't conceivably ever expect opposing sides to come to any kind of...

Peace

because then we haven't done our share.

Please don't go.

You can't always get what you want. Neither can I.


Niloufar Parsi

rosie jan

by Niloufar Parsi on

am So glad you are here. will wait for your response. there is no rush :)


Was Rosie

Well, I have been giving this matter a lot of thought/DK

by Was Rosie on

and found the video far more complex than I'd or thought, so I'm still working on my reply to Niloufar. In the meantime it might be useful to say some things about my background as regards the Is/Pal conflict, which is no longer as well-known here as it used to be.

I was born in 1959, I'm a New York Ashkenazi Jew, I'm not a Zionist although I was raised one, the seminal event which changed this 'ideology' was the massacres at Sabra and Shatila in 1982. I consider myself a moderate Socialist. My cousin fought in the Irgun, my mother had nightmares about the Holocaust, my family gave money to plant 'Trees for Israel' and so on, even though her family came here before the Holocaust, as did my father's, although the 'shtetl' which his family came from was extinguished by the Nazis, he went from Conservative to Orthodox by the time he died, my parents were civil rights activists, and though of pretty modest means gave generously to all kinds of non-sectarian charities.  

lBecause I'm not Iranian, I don't share in the polarizaton which many Iranians do, which is often a reflection of  the deep and bitter historical rifts which have torn Iran apart since the days of the Shah. I have been informed numerous times on this website that I am a Zionist, for numerous reasons including my asking Israeli Zionists to give me their version, especially of their historical narrative, for arguing until I was blue in the face against the use of the term 'Zionazi' as dangerous, and so on.

_________________________

DK,  In reading up the thread, I find some of your posts to be somewhat contentious, so I'd like you to please watch this video carefully so maybe we could achieve more harmony in the discussion of Finklestein's confrontaton with  the Zionist faction of the University of Waterloo. 

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu1q17rUkVU


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