javaneh29

capt ayhab, re ancient warrior women

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

Tacitus and Dio agree that Boudica was of royal
descent. Dio says that she was "possessed of greater intelligence than
often belongs to women", that she was tall, had long red hair down to
her hips, a harsh voice and a piercing glare, and habitually wore a
large golden necklace (perhaps a torc), a many-coloured tunic, and a thick cloak fastened by a brooch.

I guess the Roman historians were not big on feminism, due to their low estimation of female intelligence and their belaboring of her appearance :)

Boudica's husband, Prasutagus, an Icenian king who had ruled as a nominally independent ally of Rome, left his kingdom jointly to his daughters and the Roman Emperor in his will. However, when he died his will was ignored. The kingdom was annexed as if conquered, Boudica was flogged and her daughters raped, and Roman financiers called in their loans.

In AD 60 or 61, while the current governor, Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, was leading a campaign against the island of Mona (modern Anglesey) in north Wales, which was a refuge for British rebels and a stronghold of the druids, the Iceni conspired with their neighbours the Trinovantes, amongst others, to revolt. Boudica was chosen as their leader. 

...

Boudica exhorted her troops from her chariot, her daughters beside her. Tacitus gives her a short speech in which she presents herself not as an aristocrat
avenging her lost wealth, but as an ordinary person, avenging her lost
freedom, her battered body, and the abused chastity of her daughters.
Their cause was just, and the deities were on their side; the one
legion that had dared to face them had been destroyed. She, a woman,
was resolved to win or die; if the men wanted to live in slavery, that
was their choice.

interesting article

I came across this interesting article in roshangari.net which is along the lines of this subject matter.

Parsi version: //www.roshangari.net/as/ds.cgi?art=2009072915...

English version: //www.thenation.com/doc/20090713/pollitt

-YT 

capt_ayhab

I checked on that a bit, because in the many videos I've seen of the IDF I haven't seen women in what appear to me to be combat units. According to wiki (not a great source I know)

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces...

It seems the role of women in the IDF is not much different than the role of women in the US military. They can serve in any units EXCEPT frontline combat units. It's interesting the reasons Israel gives for this prohibition are based on morality rather than physical limitations, though.

I'm a little familiar with Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans and so forth, but only a little. I gave up on trying to track down all those central asian groups due to too many conflicting accounts. I do know the "woman warrior" accounts are factual, though, so I agree with you about that. However, my understanding is that they were horse archers, and both a bow and a horse go a long way towards acting as a physical equalizer. I think that's the kind of thing the US military would have to look into if females are to be integrated intothe combat elements of the military. As I said before, it is (in my opinion) doable, but it would require some changes.

Mr. Craig

You do not have to go too far to see the evidence of how well women  have preformed in combat units. Just look into Israeli army, which is totally integerated since what 1950's??? With women partaking even in infantry units, as well or better than male counter parts.

Role of women in the fighting units goes as far back as 500BC in Persia.

A Reuters newscast from Tehran in December 4, 2004 reported
on the findings of an archaeologist who had been engaged in excavations
near Tabriz, in Iran’s northwest province of Azarbaijan. A series of
DNA tests revealed that the 2,000 year old bones of an entombed warrior
and accompanying sword belonged to a woman. 

The women warriors, known as “Amazons” by the ancient Greeks, were
typical of such fighters who prevailed in Iran’s north (modern Gilan,
Mazandaran, Gorgan) and northwest (modern Azarbaijan in Iran) as early
as the 5th century BC or earlier. There have been numerous
finds in the gravesites of ancient North-Iranic warriors known as the
Scythians (Saka in Iranian) and their Sarmatian (or Ard-Alan) successors.

Source: //www.kavehfarrokh.com/news/the-persian-lione...

Regards

-YT 

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Ms. Flying Solo

Let me clarify that fundamentally I have no disagreement with the statement that education is ONE of the great equalizers.

Point I am making that education ALONE, where culture, law and mentality of the society are some of the major contributors to the inequality exist, it can not ALONE bring about the equality.

As to my evidence, I only used that one as an example, sadly it is prevalent in all industries, with FEW exception. As for evidence, I am certain you have heard the slogan[Equal pay for equal work]! Or just go to any progressive woman's movement site in US and you will see ample evidence.

Asides from that, my second point is plight of women in Iran. It is an statistical fact[just listen to any analysis about recent movement in Iran and how it is spearheaded by mostly women] and you will see that women make up majority of universities student in Iran. According to UN data base, well over 50% of medical doctors in Iran are women, YET, there is absolutely ZERO equality of right in Iran[saresho bokhoreh], they are brutally being suppressed on a daily basis.

Due to deeply rooted male culture in most every society, intensive cultural  and sensitivity education, backed by meaningful and mandated law must be put in place to truly bring about the equality of rights in every aspect of the society and world as a whole.

Respectfully

-YT 

Solo & Afshin Afshar

Solo, I was just getting even for the crack about my 1950s mentality. I apologize :)

Afshin Afshar, I agree with you that setting arbitrary standards for the purpose of excluding people is just another form of discrimination. And I like your example of the lifeguard.

che khabar e

There's kind of a reverse resentment thing with the "women in military"
mentality.  We're talking about women being repressed and resenting it
and here we come trying to be equal and you men resent that!!  LOL

Yes, that's a particularly difficult one to tackle, that's why it may be a good example to talk about. I don't think I'm the only guy who gets a bit queasy at the idea of women being at the (literally) bleeding edge of the US military. But if that's what they want to do, who am I to say they shouldn't be allowed - as long as their service in combat units is completely voluntary. But honestly, I have trouble envisioning how the military could make that work without restructuring the whole thing and evolving new doctrine to go along with it. But I think it is doable, and if there are enough women pushing for the right to serve in ground combat units I'm sure it will be done, eventually. I read a story last year in the newspaper about a unit of marines (infantry) that had female marines attached to it semi-permanently for the purposes of interacting with Iraqi women in Anbar province. The article claimed that the female marines were much better at "connecting" with ALL Iraqis, regardless of age or gender, than the male Marines were. So there is at least one thing that women in a combat unit can do better than men can. 

Another movie that dealt with the resentment of the military man
against women... The General's Daughter.  Did you ever see that?  I had
read the book and then they made a movie.  It was pretty good. 

Yes, I did see that. It was a very good movie.

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del

del

okkkkkk

You can argue the minutiae forever. Take a step back from pulling apart detailed scenarios  and approach it more broadly it will be more objective.

Sex and gender distinction comes from feminist theoretical background. It distinguishes the two: sex refers to the natural and biological state and gender to the cultural and learned significance of sex.

Sexual equality can never happen. You cant, no matter how much you want to try and make it. Men and women are different and always will be.

Gender equaility is possible but only to a limited degree. Gender equaility is a HUMAN right.... that means all humans ?  And that would include access to education be it academic and social? ... Girls should learn woodwork and engineering and boys how to cook and sew etc.

How do you apply equal education?????  I have no idea. Because, if we agree every male and female has the right to education regardless of race, culture etc, then for it to be equal it must be applied globally.  You cant dis qualify any where or make exceptions if you're going to say that equality is possible.

And I still believe it  is not possible. So it has to be a relative application of equality.. ie it depends where you live, a village in the Congo or Washington. Whether you go  to a state school or a private school. Coed or single sex. There are too many variables.

Work related equailty: I saw a film recently about children under 10 in some rural areas of Iran being used as labour on a construction site. Absolutely appalling. Are those children male or female paid the same rates as a 'bricky' in US or UK? Are they protected by the same health and safety legislation? Again same rule applies. It has to be global or an inequality remains.

Do you see my point ?? Relative gender equality might be possible but inequality will endure Im afraid.

 Javaneh

hey Rex

(as in tyrannosaurus rEX)  :-)

There's kind of a reverse resentment thing with the "women in military" mentality.  We're talking about women being repressed and resenting it and here we come trying to be equal and you men resent that!!  LOL

Another movie that dealt with the resentment of the military man against women... The General's Daughter.  Did you ever see that?  I had read the book and then they made a movie.  It was pretty good. 

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Solo

No offense, but YOU seem to be stuck in 1970 :)

We've moved way beyond the purely intellectual arguments from the early days of feminism that you are making. 40 years of trying to make it work in the real world has forced most people to revise their opinions. You are certainly entitled to argue that we need to go back to the roots of feminism and start over again, though.

che khabar e

This is a good point you bring up, and I can address it not just in the hypothetical sense based on a movie, but based on my real-world experience in the US Marines.

Ok.  Now... assuming the "standard" was set by a
man based on a man's strength, is it far to penalize "Jane" for not
having the physical strength to do the same thing?  She should be
failed because of that "weakness".

Men get disqualified for not meeting the physical standards as well. Would it be fair to make exceptions for women, when there are no exceptions made for men? In the US Marines, the answer is "yes". Female Marines are not expected to meet teh same physical standards male marines are. Even the basic Physical Fitness Test is different. The flip side, though, is that women are prohibited from serving in "combat arms" jobs (That's ground combat units) on the basis that they will be unable to perform many of the tasks that are routinely required in such units.Trying to be logical about it, I can understand why that is so. But speaking from a selfish perspective, I really wish there had been some women around during my 6 years in the infantry! Especially seeing as how the USMC treats infantrymen like barbarians and tries to keep them as far away from everyone else as they can. The complete lack of privacy and the communal lifestyle might have been a problem, though. I'm not really sure how that's been handled in expeditionary comabt units that contain men and women both. Maybe there is a solution.

What if she, as a woman, brought
something to the team based on her femaleness (is that a word?) that
men couldn't do? 

I'm sure having women in all units would be a plus. Guys act different (and worse) when there are no women around, and that's especially true for the alpha-males that tend to be in combat units.

Should "new" standards be brought in to accommodate
BOTH genders?  Or rather, why NOT different standards?

And different expectations as well? If a squad has to get over a 6 foot block wall topped with razor wire while udner fire, and the female members of the squad can't do it without help, what would be the solution? I suppose they could find another way, ahead of time. Or they could help eachother over the wall, even though it will take longer and increase the risk of something going badly wrong. Or they could seperate people into different teams based on what each individual was capable of doing, and assign the teams different tasks. It may be possible that this kind of thing can be worked around, but it isn't a no-brainer. And the military likes no-brainer stuff.

Also... please don't be offended by what you think Solo might be
saying.  I don't think she's being critical... just observing that
you do seem to have some old-fashioned ideas.  And that is NOT a bad
thing.  I hope Solo will forgive me for jumping in.  I just hate to see
a word here or there imply something unintentional. 

Oh, I'm not offended! I just like to think of myself as an enlightened guy, and I get crushed when somebody calls me a diinosaur instead :D

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Ex

Not to belabor the point but I have one question.  If you saw "GI Jane" you'll remember the scene where she couldn't pull herself up onto the boat from the water.  Ok.  Now... assuming the "standard" was set by a man based on a man's strength, is it far to penalize "Jane" for not having the physical strength to do the same thing?  She should be failed because of that "weakness".  What if she, as a woman, brought something to the team based on her femaleness (is that a word?) that men couldn't do?  Should "new" standards be brought in to accommodate BOTH genders?  Or rather, why NOT different standards?

Also... please don't be offended by what you think Solo might be saying.  I don't think she's being critical... just observing that you do seem to have some old-fashioned ideas.  And that is NOT a bad thing.  I hope Solo will forgive me for jumping in.  I just hate to see a word here or there imply something unintentional. 

Afhisn_Afshar

Gender equality’s response to this would be that yes, it is true that
average man is physically stronger than average woman, but we are NOT
talking averages here, we are talking about individuals. There are
women who can meet the pre-requisites and they must have an equal
opportunity to land the job. 

I agree with you about this. If a woman can meet the same standards men can meet  then they should have the same opportunities men have. What should NOT happen, is one set of standards for women and another set of standards for men, in the name of artificially levelling the playing field. Anyone who can meet the ONE standard should have a shot at that job, regardless of whether they are male or female.

flying solo

ex-programmer craig. Applying your logic at the work place can land you
inside of a major lawsuit.  Such ideas are liability these days.
Forgive me for saying so but it appears that you are holding on to some
50's notion of male/female roles.  These days men go on parental leave
when their infants are born and many woman run big corporations
irrespctive of their 'natural' maternal duties.

You seem to have misunderstood my comment. I spoke only of jobs that require hard physical labor, and I stated that such jobs are generally unsuitable for older males and for women. That's not a 1950s mentality. That's observable fact. As for lawsuits... should we check the stats for how many females and how many men over the age of 50 are employed in the construction industry? And then should we determine how many lawsuits have been filed against construction companies for unfair hiring practices? :D

Maybe you just misunderstood what I was saying. If so, all is forgiven. If not, I just lost a lot of respect for you.

Solo

I hope you don't think I'm disagreeing with you aziz!!!  I'm most definitely not.  :-)

While I agree that academic education is the "foundation", I also believe that the social education I mentioned is just as valuable.  Without the opportunity to USE that education, what good is it?  My son might be highly educated but if he treats his wife with disrespect, he's not educated enough!  That's just my humble opinion.  :-)

I'm not sure where I used "good" or "bad" but if I did, I stand corrected.  That's not the point I was trying to make.  By being "better", I mean better qualified... better prepared.  I've got a nephew who is academically brilliant.  But I'm not sure he understands the basic concepts of human interaction.  THAT will be an education he gets when he's in the real world.  :-)

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Afshin

Yes, of course.  You're absolutely right.  Without definition or intent, words like equal or equality really don't mean much.  And as you said before as well, UNPF goes further to describe gender equality as a human right.  So even within that definition, the intention could vary.  For example, Iran does offer higher education to women but NOT the opportunity to develop their potential.   So their equal education demand has been met but not their human rights.  The word "equal" doesn't really mean much in that nothing is really equal.

I like what Javaneh and Solo have to say about gender "roles".  I think that is the education I really mean.  Redefining these so-called "roles" must be a priority.

del

del

Education

Eduction, not just academic education, but social and political education.   Maybe awareness is a better word.  I personally think that a less educated person can be just as socially aware as a PhD.  So I'm not talking about classroom smarts.  Education will give someone more opportunities (as a rule) but not necessarily make them a better person.

And yes, it does seem that Ex has some old-fashioned ideas.  Who would ever figure a man saying that women are better caregivers!!!  :-)  But I think he is really talking in generalities.  There is no such thing as "equal" when it comes to gender.  Can you apply "equal" to education?  Not really.  Who is to say who is more educated... the PhD I mentioned who got all his learning from books... or the person who has learned his trade or his ideals with the sweat of his own two hands.  It's the concept of treatment that needs to be equal.

Qualifying Equality

 Javaneh,

Education helps level the playing field between two men, between two women and between a man and a woman.

If education were seen solely as a means of generationg a large income, then the school of hard knocks would be a better choice. Why waste time sitting in the classroom when you can start delivering papers and pizza at 14 and and work your way up to owning a newspaper empire or a pizza chain before turning 40? 

Education opens and elevates the mind. It allows the person to ask questions, use logic and develop independent thinking.  It helps him/her not follow some leader or religion or motto blindly.  It generates self-respect, boosts confidence; provides problem solving skills beyond what nature has handed a person.  Will it make a CEO out of each and every male and female graduate? NO Will it increase the chances of survival and independence (economically, socially - even emotionally)? Absolutely yes.

Culturally women value themselves below a man. Why do you suppose they insist on marrying 'up'?  If a woman herself cannot respect her own value, cannot see herself as equal, then how do we expect the man to cosider her so?  

Afshin Afshar has said everything much more eloquently than I could have.

ex-programmer craig. Applying your logic at the work place can land you inside of a major lawsuit.  Such ideas are liability these days. Forgive me for saying so but it appears that you are holding on to some 50's notion of male/female roles.  These days men go on parental leave when their infants are born and many woman run big corporations irrespctive of their 'natural' maternal duties.

Captain, in regards to your assertion of university professors earning 20% less than their male counterparts - Evidence please.  Equal pay for equal work. Demonstrate equal work and you can collect equal pay.  Otherwise, there are other factors for the wage disparity and they are NOT gender based though I accept that reason is a good scapegoat.

Lastly, I want to bring up the notion of 'work' and 'staying at home'.  A poster brought up the fact that it is natural for a mother to stay home with the babies.  Is it? Do you not think men would like to stay home also and care for their young?  Educated men or cave men? Who wants to get up every day and go to work? Each and every day?  Which job is more difficult? Who decides?  And quite frankly what does that have to do with 'equality'?  There are plenty of unfit mothers staying home with their kids becuase culture says they get first dibs at the job. There are plenty of fathers who'd be much better at home caring for the children than at work.  Breastfeeding constitutes 1 year of a child's life. What about the other 17?  Let's try and keep an open mind about what a man and a woman can do . It is the 21st century .

Education is not enough on it's own

Education alone doesn't bring equality as we have seen In Iran. I think education was one option for women under the regime. An education is always valueable but in Iran for eg, the limitations imposed on women ensure they cant acheive the same as a man.

I remember this..late 70's, Tehran. I was employed initially as an expat. I had a really good salary. When my status changed, I married, I became considered as an Iranian citizen, a woman... guess what...? same job, half the pay!!! I did of course argue for my rights and was promoted in order to preserve my previous salary but I doubt that would happen today. 

:)))) if men were to have the babies, it would become like China but on a voluntary basis.

Javaneh

che khabar e

I agree with what you said about the needs of chidlren changing as they grow up. Adolescent guys have a very hard time accepting authority figues, and a single mom is going to have a very hard time with a teenage son unless she has been blessed with a perfect angel :)

I've never been a teenage girl, but I recall my sister being in tears more than a few times because our dad was always bossing her around and telling her what to do, and not paying any attention to her "feelings" (and this is probably exactly the kind of treatment that teenage boys need). I may have had feelings when I was a teenager but I don't recall spending much time worrying about them. All I wanted to do was get as far away from the house as I could and hang out with my friends.

Education vs. Empowerment

When a woman educator, in the position of professorship earns 20% less than that of a male counterpart, with identical qualification, then UNICEF's definition is out the door! And sadly enough this is just in the most democratic of all lands, let alone Iran and kinds.

Equality, being a relative term, MUST be in the eyes of the law, with intense social awareness program of the issue, backed with proper and meaningful laws and regulations.

Ms. flyingsolo notes[In my opinion education is the great 'equalizer'.] 

I could not agree more, however, statistically In Iranian universities, there are more women enrolled than men. How the plight of women in Iran can be reconciled with the statement above, which apparently is identical to what Mr. Afshar quoted form Human Rights charter.

No matter how accessible and comprehensive the education system is made, no matter how many doctors, engineers, attorneys, judges etc etc etc are women, so as long as the culture and the law of land does not guarantee EQUALITY in a comprehensive and mandated form,  it is going to be  just a mirage.

-YT 

P/S, If men were to give birth and  breast feed a child, then our species will be doomed, trust me I am male and I should know. So don't tell me who is the [weak gender - due respect], because it ain't women who are fragile.

Ex

The law already pretty much allows that women will be given custody.  And I agree with you as to why that should be.  And while you did clearly state at the end that it should based on who the better parent is, I feel it lends itself to too much emphasis put on the mother being "assumed" to be the better parent.  Let's look at this in stages.  Infancy... certainly the mother is better qualified.  Or rather, better prepared.  :-)   But what about pre-teen and/or teenage years?  You could argue that a young boy would be better prepared for adulthood by having a strong and responsible male figure.  Or a young girl learning how to cope with womanhood from a mature and responsible mother.  Nothing is absolute... right?   :-)))

Javaneh is right as well when she says that equality is always going to exist.  Not unlike racism or bigotry, we fear that which we do not know or understand. 

Educating our children, not just academically but socially as well, is the key.  Children learn what they observe.  Nothing will eradicate oppression completely, but we must continue to work towards a more even playing field.

More thoughts

Thanks all for your participation in this conversation. It's a very thought provoking subject.  It's also something that has perplexed me a lot through out my training, mostly because there are a multitude of approaches and explanations of what inequality and equality actually means dependant upon how its measured.

Equality can be measured in many ways through education as a few of you mentioned, or though the ability to acquire wealth,  available opportunities, or one's functional ability as compared with someone who is mentally or physically challenged, where one is born, into which culture, or which religion. 

These are the frames we use to measure whether equality exists or is possible.  You will find some of the frames more positive than others, or you might find a means to help enable equality such as education, might be more feasible in some areas than others.

Education is a good example. How can education be provided to everyone equally? How do we ensure that every girl in every village in Iran for example receives the same educational opportunities as say a girl from a wealthy family in Iran, or anywhere else in the world. No matter how you try to cut it, it's going to be impossible to put into action.  Inequality is always going to exist in some form or another.

These are all variables. The variables are so great and complex that it is impossible to come up with one single solution.

So I keep coming back to gender roles because they too are so diverse and situational. How they were defined and evolved and why they continue to be maintained. In many countries we now have laws and policies about inequality but it continues to persevere despite of them

In my post I wanted to concentrate on gender as a framework for considering inequality. It’s probably the largest and most complex area of inequality to examine and I wanted to point out that oppression, which arises from these differences, can however be ameliorated if we can learn to love and respect our differences.

Javaneh