Confusion over Iran's Demonstrations

Rusta's point is valid

She says, "Khomeini was the most potent force in the Islamic community who constitued a large portion of the nation."

Now I'm really wondering if Dr. Bahar isn't serious when he says he had never heard of Khomeini until 1979! I had naivley assumed anyone with an interest in Iranian politics would know of Khomeini the moment he spoke out against the Shah in 1963, starting riots and arrests. But perhaps my view of some Iranian intellectuals was incorrect; some of them really were absurdly out of touch with Iranian political realities.

Dr. Bahar, if you feel your statement about Khomeini's lack of name recognistion prior to 1979 needs correction or explanation please provide it. It damages your credibility as it stands.   

Stolen revolution? A leftist myth

Ms Dadvar

Time and again people come up with this lame and ludicrous excuse that our revolution was stolen!! The people who say this are generally coming from a left leaning background because they were those who were chopped off and some later killed off - Jebhe Melli is exempt from this charge because they were collaborators with the mullahs from thirty years before.  But have you heard the Farsi expression: ozre bad tar az gonaah? By saying that the revolution was stolen they are admitting that they were completely blind to the influence of the clergy in our national culture. And indeed this is what the Left were and still remain to be out of touch with the people.

Khomeini was the most potent force in the Islamic community who constitued a large portion of the nation. Only the champaign socialists who claim the revolution was stolen were unaware of him.

My position on Pahlavi III is very clear. I support his political views but neither he is ready for the nation nor is the nation ready for him. 

FR

A Few Corrections

I want to thank many diligent readers for sending me emails. I wrote this article in a rush and I need to make a few factual corrections as follows, but I must emphasize that the basic point of the article stands...i.e. this fight must be for much more.

1) General Huyzer did visit Iran, and ask Fardoost to support the revolution. The visitor to Khomeini was Ramsey Clark. In any event, the revolution was manipulated by the West, and Khomeini was launched by the West.

2) The hostage crisis happened before the Nojeh Coup. The Nojeh Coup was however, externally financed and supported (as the article claims).

I appreciate the very strong positive response; and it is very gratifying for me that many Iranians inside and outside Iran share the concerns I raised.

I hope the current uprising is not manipulated like it was in 1979.

Fati Commando

yes iranians are not mature enough to do that, but aren't iranians now mature enough to follow Mrs Fatemeh Rustan (known as Fati Commando) as their gourila leader?

//iranian.com/main/blog/farah-rusta-3

That is the question?

wmg1919/Ali Siletz/Khanum Rusta

Most Iranians did not know Khomanie until late 1970's.  The revolution started with mostly students and was stolen by Mullahs.  When Khomanie was put in power, he turned around and ordered the imprisonment, torture and slaughter of thousands of people including those who helped hime gain power.  These are the facts that no one can deny.

Khanumeh Rusta, you think that PR is too good for Iranian people.  But you are not a supporter of him playing a role.  Very unusal way of thinking, indeed.

Khanum Dadvar

What conclusions? I only implied, I didn't conclude. I am sure your friend Dr Bahar would tell you the whole story if sees it fit and if he is not being diplomatic but  let us leave it at this point as it is not a matter of great importance in this discussion.

And in answer to your question, while I respect his position and political stance I believe that, like in the case of Shahpour Bakhtiar, Iranians are not still politically mature enough to accept Pahlavi III as a player in the field let alone as a potential captain. Therfore, I am not a 'supporter' as such. 

FR

Khanum Rusta

You are not that clear.  But my guess is that, you are questioning   Dr Bahar's integrity, becuase of his willingness to attend some sort of IRI gathering. With all due respect,  even if what you are saying is true, your conclusion is irrational/inaccurate .

I have known Dr Bahar for a long time.  Your short and ambiguous comment does not "upset my view" of him.  To think otherwise, is a sign of extreme grandiosity and arrogance.  

P.S.  By the way, are you a Reza Pahlavi supporter?

Mr. Bahar

welcome back.   i always enjoy your blogs.  This blog was exactly what all Iranians who has put their lives in these demonstrations must read.  They must clarify their goal is removal of crimial, corrupted and anti Iranians IRI.

Payandeh IRAN & Iranians

Down with IRI

Mr. Bahar

welcome back.   i always enjoy your blogs.  This blog was exactly what all Iranians who has put their lives in these demonstrations must read.  They must clarify their goal is removal of crimial, corrupted and anti Iranians IRI.

Payandeh IRAN & Iranians

Down with IRI

Rotten IRI

This "coup d'état" which surprised all factions of the regime is a new one in its kind, but not the only power struggle within the IRI; others have started since the inception of the regime--Banisadr's impeachment was even more flagrant one than this "coup".

Contray to IRI supporters of "Green Movement", people are not in the streets because of the coup plotted by one faction against another, but because a majority of them wish to get rid of the whole totalitarian IRI.

As the author truely described, this young movement is derived from the preceding facts displayed the tyrannical temper of the whole regime. This anti-IRI movement, even thouhg under a relatively les dangerous mantle of the "rigged elections", now targets the whole rgime by crying "Marg bar Diktator".

This coup d'état appeared even more plainly in the details of their measures. The regime now proved to be as bloodthirsty as the most ferocious jiahdists of the Arab Muslims who once occupied Iran 1400 years ago. Young generation does not permit the leftovers of the same occupiers to save this rotten Islamofascist and occupying regime.

In the process of their struggles, people form their leadership from and among their pioneers. Leadership is important but lack of it should not disappoint people in struggles. Furthermore, people in Iran get advice from secular and democratic parties / groups / organisations / activists abroad that have been fighting the whole regime during the last three decades.

I hope you are being facetious.

1,000,000,000,000 that's one trillion

So, where is the source that "They [the current regime in Iran] have...given away literally Trillions of dollars in land and sea rights in Caspian Sea to British and American Oil Companies,..."

Bellow is a source from Wikipedia so you don't have to copy and paste it.  So, where is the source that they have literally given away trillions of dollars?  The TOTAL reserve in Caspian Sea is estimated to be worth $12,000,000,000,000.  Did the regime in Iran gave all of that away, to anyone?

Wikipedia: {Negotiations related to the demarcation of the Caspian Sea have been going on
for nearly a decade now among the littoral states bordering the Caspian -
Azerbaijan, Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Iran. The status of the Caspian
Sea[27] is the key
problem. There are three major issues regulated by the Caspian Sea status:
access to mineral resources (oil
and natural gas), access for
fishing and access to international
waters (through Russia's Volga river and the canals
connecting it to the Black Sea
and Baltic Sea). Access to the
Volga River is particularly important for the landlocked states of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. This issue is of course sensitive to
Russia, because this potential traffic
will move through its territory (albeit onto the inland waterways). If a body of water is labeled as Sea then there would be some precedents and
international treaties obliging the granting of access permits to foreign
vessels. If a body of water is labeled merely as lake then there are no such obligations. Environmental issues are also
somewhat connected to the status and borders issue.

It should be mentioned that Russia
got the bulk of the former Soviet Caspian military fleet (and also currently has
the most powerful military presence in the Caspian Sea). Some assets were
assigned to Azerbaijan. Kazakhstan and especially Turkmenistan got a very small
share because they lack major port cities.

• According to a treaty signed between
  Iran (Persia) and the Soviet Union, the Caspian Sea is
  technically a lake and it is to be divided into two sectors (Persian and
  Russian), but the resources (then mainly fish) would be commonly shared. The line between the two
  sectors was to be seen as an international border in a common lake, like Lake Albert. Also the Russian sector was
  sub-divided into administrative sectors of the four littoral republics.
• After the dissolution of the Soviet Union not all of the newly
  independent states assumed continuation of the old treaty. At first Russia and Iran announced that they would continue to adhere to the
  old treaty (but they don't have a common border any more, so this is practically
  impossible).
• Even though from a logistical point of view this should not be Iran's
  problem (since it is the old Soviet Union that has lost territories such as
  Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan), Iran has called for an equal division
  of the Caspian Sea among the five countries: Iran, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan,
  Kazakhstan, and Russia. Since this has been ignored and largely suppressed by
  Russia’s military intimidation against Iran, now Iran intends to only recognize
  its old treaty (between Iran and Russia) and will challenge Russia to divide its
  50% share among the three littoral states - Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and
  Kazakhstan - over a more friendlier position toward the West and the U.S, such
  as opening of U.S interest section in Tehran.

Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan announced that
they do not consider themselves parties to this treaty.

• Later followed some proposals for common agreement between all littoral
  states about the status of the sea.

• Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan insisted that the
  sectors should be based on the median
  line, thus giving each state a share proportional to its Caspian coastline length.
  Also the sectors would form part of the sovereign territory of the particular
  state (thus making them international borders and also allowing each state to
  deal with all resources within its sector as it wishes unilaterally).
• Iran insisted that the sectors should be
  such that each state gets a 1/5th share of the whole Caspian Sea. This was
  advantageous to Iran, because it has a proportionally smaller coastline.
• Russia proposed a somewhat
  compromising solution: the seabed (and thus mineral resources) to be divided
  along sectoral lines (along the two above-described variants), the surface (and
  thus fishing rights) to be shared between all states (with the following
  variations: the whole surface to be commonly shared; each state to receive an
  exclusive zone and one single common zone in the center to be shared. The second
  variant is deemed not practical, because of the small size of the whole sea).

Russia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan have agreed to a solution about their
sectors. There are no problems between Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, but the latter is not actively
participating, so there is no agreement either. Azerbaijan is at odds with Iran over some oil fields that the both states claim. There have
been occasions where Iranian patrol boats have opened fire at vessels sent by
Azerbaijan for exploration into the disputed region. There are similar tensions
between Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan (the latter claims
that the former has pumped more oil than agreed from a field, recognized by both
parties as shared). Less acute are the issues between Turkmenistan and Iran. Regardless, the southern part of the sea remains
disputed.

• • Russia and Kazakhstan signed a treaty, according to which, they
    divide the northern part of the Caspian Sea between them into two sectors along
    the median line. Each sector is an exclusive zone of its state. Thus all
    resources, seabed and surface are exclusive to the particular state.
  • Russia and Azerbaijan signed a similar treaty about their
    common border.
  • Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan signed a similar treaty
    about their common border.
  • Iran doesn't recognize the bilateral
    agreements between the other littoral states. Iran continues to insist on a single multilateral
    agreement between all five littoral states (as the only way to achieve 1/5-th
    share).
  • The position of Turkmenistan is unclear.

After Russia adopted the median
line sectoral division and the three treaties already signed between some
littoral states this is looking like the realistic method for regulating the
Caspian borders. The Russian sector is fully defined. The Kazakhstan sector is
not fully defined, but is not disputed either. Azerbaijan's, Turkmenistan's and
Iran's sectors are not fully defined. It is not clear if the issue of
Volga-access to vessels from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan is covered by their agreements with Russia and also what the conditions are for
Volga-access for vessels from Turkmenistan and Iran.

The Caspian littoral States meeting in 2007 signed an agreement that bars any
ship not flying the national flag of a littoral state from entering Caspian
waters.[28]}

Khanum Dadvar

Let me be a little clearer. Dr Bahar wouldn't say no to an invitation by a certain Islamic regime's diplomatic gathering for exchanging views on the Persian Gulf states and how to negotiate with them, diplomaticly. Oh, of course, it was all done in the spirit of serving Iran's interests (no doubt !!) .

Sorry I didn't mean to upset your views of Dr Bahar. The gentleman is otherwsie a man of knowledge and surely a seasoned diplomat.

FR

Facts Facts Facts

To Multiple Personality Disorder:
Regarding the transfer of trillions of dollars of oil assets: As you know, Iran's current claim in the Caspian see has been reduced to 13% from originally 50% under the Turkmenchay Agreement. No new agreement has been ratified, by anyone, never-the-less Azerbaijan has struck the largest oil field 'ever' and other oil fields such as "Darwin Bank", "Canub", "Gurgani-sea", "island Jiloy", "Hazi Aslanov", "Sangachalli-sea", "Duvanni-sea", "Island Bullah", "Peschany" within a little over 50 miles from Iranian land, and these are UNDERGROUND reservoirs that impinge on Iran's remaining 13% with over 110 Million barrels in just one of the fields. This issue is a "whole" book on theft of Iranian assets and its going on with every one of Iran's litoral Caspian neighbors. The rug has been pulled from Under Iran and Iranians. Look this issue up on the internet - there are countless sources.

Regarding the Nojeh Coup: Yes it was in response to the hostage crisis (which you are right started earlier). Gary Sick's book and Parry's Book both confirm it. So does the wikipedia page on Nojeh. I have a theory that in fact the coup was staged by US/Brits falsely to kill off Iran's pilots in preparation for the Iraq invasion (to minimize Iranian air superiority some 6 months prior to the invasion). I think they set it up, and then gave away (snitched on the pilots to have them all killed off).

Zbigniew Brezinski has written on this subject (so has Parry, Sick, Honneger) and most recently Alexander Haig is on record (You tube video) stating that the Saudi's had told him about Carter's instruction to Saddam Hussein following his state visit to Saudi Arabia as Secretary of State for Reagan. There is no question, Carter started the war in retaliation to the Mullahs.

Regarding the future: My simple point is we need to get behind the wheel and drive this car ourselves - the Iranian people that is - and not get manipulated into accepting another version of the Islamic Republic. Take it or leave it - that is my point. I think its a sensible, reasonable point, and maybe its worthy of some thought by those that read the blog.

Khanum Rusta

Would you please explain what you mean by "old schmoozer in the regime's diplomatic circles" ?  I find your comment very confusing.  Dr Bahar is a knowledgable and seasoned politician,  advocate and educator.  He had a wonderful and informative Tv program for years.  The name of this program was "Chenakhteh Iran Va Iranian".   Have you ever seen any of them?   

Dear Dr Bahar

I am so glad to see your blog on Iranian.com.  I believe, there are many people who are concerned about the same thing.  What do you think, would be an appropriate alternative?

Please say hello to your wife.  I do not know your phone number.  Mine is 301-530-4806.  I hope to get a call from you.  Thanks.

جنگ بنی عباس و بنی اميه و ايرونی که از بغض معاويه پرچم بنی عباس

رو ميگيره.
سادش ميکنم ..گيج منگهايه امتی دوزاريشون بيفته ..از روزی که عربو امتي{اخوند} تو ايران چتر باز کرد انبوهی از ايرانيان اين چيرگی رو بر نتافتن و برايه رهايی از اين يوغ خونها دادن و  بويژه الان که زمان بنی اميه{خامنه اي} است و فشار و خفقان و کشتار بيشتر, پس دشمنی ايرونی هم بيشتر و به مثال عربی {لا لحب علي بل لبغض معاويه} ايرانيها الان هواداری بنی عباس{اسهال طلبايه هم قوم بني اميه} را ميکنند نه در باب دوستی با بنی عباس بلکه از کينه شيطان بدتر که باشه بنی اميه وگرنه به چشم ايرونی همگی يه کرباسند و اگر هم پرچم يااالثارات الحسين رو الم کردن از گير بغض به معاويه ست که همان خامنه و دارودسته اش باشه.بنابراين به جفنگيات حزبی ها گوش نديد که همش چرت و پرته و پروپاگاندا .بهار جان شما هم نميدونم چی خوردی سرديت شده کمی پرت و پلا گفتی.. شاد باشی..چييرز

Your facts are not the history's ....

with all due respect, I also agree with few others who have raised serious  issues with your version of history.

 Here are some samples: Khomeini's fight and leadership of a "revolution" against the shah started in 1346 (about 12 years prior to the shah's bums being thrown out of iran). Since then, he was known as the man who would be able to challenge the shah and gid rid of him, although the US and other shah's western friends would not even give Khomeini a chance. He spent all his exile time in Iraq and his speeches, recordings, and writings were VERY POPULAR especially among Iranian students in Iran (I was a student in Iran in 1350). He was the one who everyone believed would be able to throw the corrupt regime of the shah out, and as far as we know he did it.

So unlike your imagination tells you, this dude was not sprang out of brits and US sleeves in Paris to lead the revolution.

Thanks,

MPD, brilliant!

Very good response. As you know, I'm rarely impressed with anything on this site anymore, but your comment is a gem!

Parkhash: Aren't you realy doing a lot of wishful thinking? When millions of people carry one guy's picture and yell "allaho akbar" and "Mousavi hemayatet mikonim", and respond to his call to demonstrate on cue, you still pretend this is a "leaderless" movement? A leaderless "green" movement!

Woe to a leaderless revolt

Some of your comments are pathetic. For example my good friend Capt_(Wikipedia is my knowledge base)_ayhab (affectionately known as Yahya) is musing whether a leader will miraculously emerge from within the obscure corners of the regime (!) I don't know if one should cry or one should laught at this type of hopeless and helpless statements. The others like MPD are only interested in historic data and miss the main message.

Don't take me wrong I am not supporting Mr Bahar flatly. I know Mr Bahar better than all of you. He is an old schmoozer in the regime's diplomatic circles.So I am not convinced that he is an overnight convert. But when you guys talk about leadership, or lack of it, I can see the faces of Khomeini cheerers on everyone of you.

BTW, I am not going away with Mr Bahar unless I want to have dinner with the regimes' chief diplomats in Paris or London!!

Facts and sources please

"...given away literally Trillions of dollars in land and sea rights in Caspian Sea to British and American Oil Companies..."
Provide source.

"Carter organized a coup (Nodjeh) by Iran’s US Trained air force pilots, which was foiled by Khomeini. And, Khomeini responded with taking US embassy employees hostage."
You got the dates wrong:
52 Americans were held hostage beginning in November 4, 1979
Nojeh Coup occurred in July 11, 1980

And the other ones mentioned before in another comment.

"Then out of frustration he [Khomeini] told Saddam Hussein to invade Iran."
Provide source.

"...we'll be back to square one, back to 1985!!"
What are you referring to in 1985?

"How do we know the future will be brighter?"
With this kind of blogs I don't think it is any brighter.  That's for sure.  No, I mean it seriously!  Why don’t people who believe in your kind of preaching go out there on the grounds in Iran and put their lives, and the lives of their children and grand children, on the line and actually DO something, instead of sitting outside the mat and telling the people in Iran who day to day have to struggle against this regime how to topple it.

You not hearing something

You not hearing something ...doesn't add up to much! What makes you an expert on anything? Anyway, see below (next time take a second or two and just google something before spouting something out).

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nojeh_Coup

Flexilbility

This is exactly the point, are we being "flexible" by accepting Moussavi/Karroubi/Rafsanjani? Or will it be much of the same..a different facade on a pile of shit? The article (if you actually read it) says that people should die for absolute democracy, not a different version of the theocracy. Like so many other morons, Anon, you have no constructive suggestion. Just a bunch of negative comments, no ideas, no proposals, no vision ...just negativity. Iran should go forward - not side ways. A constructive approach will take Iran forward. The article, quite clearly is pushing for a better, higher vision of the future, NOT death for nothing.

He did?

"Carter organized a coup (Nodjeh) by Iran’s US Trained air force pilots."

Never have I heard this claim made anywhere before- not even by the Islamic Republic that wanted to connect everything to Carter- but I guess it is too much to ask, requesting a reference.

It's so clear now

Mr Bahar and the people who think like this gentleman are the reason why this IRI has lasted 30 years.
The lack of flexibility in thoughts and being out of touch with Iran and Iranians have caused this confusion.
If you think that you don't know why millions of iranians are screaming and willing to die in the streets, then please find yourself another hobby and leave them alone. Iran is not your country anymore, it belongs to those millions of young people who care about it and who want a better future for it.
Please take this rusta with you too, she's even more annoying than you.

Mr. Bahar

With all due respect, I tend to agree with Mr. Azadiyamarg in regards to the path this election has taken.

It is almost a unanimous belief that once the coup was so blatantly surfaced, it became obvious that the demonstrations were not for the presidency any longer. In my humble opinion, it is now more about the legitimcy of the entire regime. 

Will this bring about the regime change? I am not sure, it all depends IF a leader emerges from the progressive thinkers. Are Mousavi, Karoubi or Rezaie that kind of leader who can spearhead the regime change? I personally doubt it. They might be a bit moderate, but they are still some of the founders of the regime.

Have we seen the end of movement, again I doubt it, it is like amber's waiting to be ignited again.

-YT 

Confusion over Iran's Demonstrations

Mr. Jalil Bahar: I agree with most of what you wrote, but you have not selected or suggested a leader for the herds to follow. Unfortunately there is no one to lead this movement, I hope that you are not suggesting that we should consult US or Brits to decide for us.

Mr Bahar! Welcome on board!

I, together with a tiny few commentators and bloggers on this site, have been arguing along the same lines for the last few months but when people need to be duped with their eyes wide open, nothing can stop them. If things can go wrong, they will go wrong! We Iranians have a historic tradition of self-cheating. What you see happening in Iran is just keeing up with the old habits.

FR

Get your Facts straight

With all respect - you have written an article based on emotions and not facts.

Karroubi was not the speaker of the Parlament during the 1980ths

Rafsanjani became president long after that, in 1989.

This movement is not about Karroubi, Mousavi, Rafsanjani. It's not about a single individuals, it's supporting those who raise their voices against the guardian council and supreme leader. The two main insitutions who stand against any major reforms that could transform Iran to a more democratic direction.

Today only unity - Support the Green movement

Change from within would be

Change from within would be the first step but ofcourse not the final.