"Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth"

Kharmagas

Don't you have anything better to do?

Go take your lunch break.

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Q

Just FYI, I've challenged Craig on this issue and find his libertarian credentials to be sorely lacking.

Wouldn't you have to have a libertarian philosophy yourself to make that kind of assessment, Q? I had no idea you were a fellow Libertarian! I didn't realize there even was such a thing as a Libertarian who supported fascism like they have in Iran! Live and learn, right?

Well, I'm always pleased to meet a fellow Libertarian, buddy! I take it you are a big fan of Glen Beck then? Just between you and me I think he goes a little too far with the anti-government stuff. He's borderline anarchist.

Craig just likes to say
he's a libertarian. Real libertarians are against war or any kind of
foreign intervention

So Ghandi was a Libertarian eh? But Thomas Jefferson, who as President ordered Americas first foreign war was not? Is that your final answer?

...pro choice, pro immigration

And what do you know of my positions on those issues?

and against
government policing functions.

Real libertarians have a serious
distrust of the military or any national standing army.

Nope. Actually police and military are the only two government services that Libertarians wholeheartedly endorse. That's the absolute minimum that any federal government is required to provide. Internal and external security for the citizens. Everything else is (arguably) optional. The main difference between Libertarians and Anarchists is that Anarchists don't even think government should provide that much. I'm kind of surprised you don't know this, since you are a Libertarian... it's a bit of a no-brainer! Who issued your credentials?

I suspect Craig is a "libertarian" because it's no longer cool to be conservative!

Or maybe it could be because I am Libertarian? :D

ex programmer craig

I may disagree with you on many topics, but I am glad you are here, taking an interest in Iran and Iranian affairs. As an immigrant I have had a good taste of discrimination where I live.  I would hate to see Iranians exercising racism and discrimination to non Iranians on this site, condescending and attacking them because they 'don't understand Iran and Iranians'. You understand plenty and you are entitled to your opinions. We can argue and debate but we should not put each other down.

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ID

We know it's hard for you to understand where we're coming from, what we've gone through and how we feel.

Who is "we"? I was addressing Ayhab and something he said.

You can't get your head around it, you're not alone. I know a few other
Americans who are as detached even some are married to Iranians!!

Yeah, no shit. I was married for more than 10 years to a woman who grew up in communist China. I probably wouldn't have ever married her in the first place if she'd said she was 100% in love with China and couldn't care less about the US. I'm weird that way! Because, if she doesn't like the US how can she like Americans like me!? And why on earth would a man marry a woman who didn't even like him, eh? Anyway, enough on that! Question, though... would any of you people who love Iran so much but live in the US instead of in Iran, marry an American? And if so, why? Why would you want to do that to anyone?

It
takes a worldly view and a broader understanding to be able to put
yourself in the shoes of someone who comes from a land you have never
seen and don't understand.

Yeah, right. OK. Well I was married to an immigrant, and I've lived in immigrant communities all my life and I have to tell you it isn't really that normal for immigrants to give all their love and devotion to the country they left, and none of it to the country that took them in.

But think about it, how can anyone come to
this site every day, engage in so many discussions and still not know
why so many Iranians have not lived in Iran in the past three decades
but still love their homeland? 

That isn't what Ayhab said. This is what Ayhab said:

My total and full alliance and devotion lies with Iran and Iranians of all shape, size, color, religion, ethnicity and gender. 

Without Iran, I am no body.

It's quite a bit different, isn't it? in fact, if he'd said taht during his citizenship- interview, he would have been denied citizenship.

Are you even listening to what others
say or just trying to find buzz words to jump in and defend Israel and
US foreign policies? 

Actually, I'm a VERY GOOD listener. I always have been. And look at the effort I make to come to this site and particpate, even though I'm not Iranian and even though I disagree with most of the bigshots (like you) who seem to control the editorial stance of this place? How much time to you spend on American political sites that you disagree with? So, who is the poor listener? Who doesn't ahve the worldly outlook? You only wnat to hear from Iranians, and you only want to be around Iranians. That's pretty effing parochial, IRANdokht. Even the name you have chosen for yourself is exclusionary and nationalistic.

But thanks for the input!

It's a shame that after all this time you still
had to ask that question. I thought you could have been interested in
the human side of this website. Guess not!

I particpated in the feminist thread yesterday, even though it had nothing to do with Iran. And I invested a lot f time in it! And since theer aren't that many people here who are Americans-without-a-prefix, I thought that was a worthy contribution even though you didn't care for what I had to say! maybe I should just stick to politics around here, eh?

Craig is about as libertarian as I am the King of France

Just FYI, I've challenged Craig on this issue and find his libertarian credentials to be sorely lacking. Craig just likes to say he's a libertarian. Real libertarians are against war or any kind of foreign intervention, pro choice, pro immigration and against government policing functions. Real libertarians have a serious distrust of the military or any national standing army.

I suspect Craig is a "libertarian" because it's no longer cool to be conservative!

my apologies Craig!

I forgot that you are a liberzartian.

ex PC

You said:

I honestly don't understand how somebody can love their old country so much ... and voluntarily choose not to live in their old country. I can't really get my head around that.

We know it's hard for you to understand where we're coming from, what we've gone through and how we feel.

You can't get your head around it, you're not alone. I know a few other Americans who are as detached even some are married to Iranians!! It takes a worldly view and a broader understanding to be able to put yourself in the shoes of someone who comes from a land you have never seen and don't understand. But think about it, how can anyone come to this site every day, engage in so many discussions and still not know why so many Iranians have not lived in Iran in the past three decades but still love their homeland?  Are you even listening to what others say or just trying to find buzz words to jump in and defend Israel and US foreign policies?  It's a shame that after all this time you still had to ask that question. I thought you could have been interested in the human side of this website. Guess not!

IRANdokht

KouroshS

'and may be even a bloodless coup to even topple these charlatans, to put the entire nation and the world's mind at peace.'

That's going a lot further than Bijan suggested I think. Do you honestly think they'll come and 'clean house for us' and then simply say 'Ghorboone Shoma, Khodafez'?????

We've all seen how that goes. Thanks but no thanks. I'm not only confident that Iran and Iranians are capable of cleaning house on their own, I also dare say that regardless of the internal problems, the majority are not going to look kindly on foreign intervention of that sort.

kharmagas

Despite your crazy right wing views, your interjection was good this time.

Crazy right wing views!? You must be an islamofascist terrorist to think so!

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kharmagas

bad_bakht'e zaboun, Israelis have been contracting out some of their
wars to U.S...

Really? Which ones? I thought it was the Saudis who were having the US wage war on their behalf. I guess I'm just too naive to see the truth!

...now you are trying to contract your fight to Israelis? 

The US used to be pretty good at covert ops, but these days? I think a boyscout troop could do a better job of gathering intelligence. At least they know how to use Google, right? I don't really trust teh Israelis but they are pretty good on the intel side and in this case we have common interests.

Ayhab

My total and full alliance and devotion lies with Iran and Iranians of all shape, size, color, religion, ethnicity and gender. 

Without Iran, I am no body.

It kind of surprises me you've been living in the US for the last 20+ years, under those circumstances! I don't mean to insult you when I say that either, despite our many past run-ins. I honestly don't understand how somebody can love their old country so much and not feel any attachment to their new adopted homeland at all... and voluntarily choose not to live in their old country. I can't really get my head around that. I love the US in the way you say that you love Iran, and I can't envision myself living any place else for any extended period of time. I know that I would not be happy any place else.

regarding your plan! (to Kourosh)

KouroshS says: " At that point, diplomacy has obviously failed, and that would be proof
that IRI Does not speak the diplomatic language and specially if there
is hard evidence at hand that Pasdaran and baseejee's were in on it.
With such proof at hand, would you not say that it would be best to
teach these mullah's a lesson? Why should there be further
investigation and search?"

So you are trying to outsource your covert plan to U.S?

KHAR....... magas

Beechareye bakht bargashte

DId you read or see the name "israel" in any of those comments?

w

Bravo Ms. Holly

I do like your content much better now, since it is posed in general form and with much more sincerity.

To answer your question, I am a double minority ;-o), being Iranian first and foremost, I happen to be Azari who is NOT of shi'a sect. My total and full alliance and devotion lies with Iran and Iranians of all shape, size, color, religion, ethnicity and gender. 

Without Iran, I am no body.

-YT 

Mr. "covert plan" !

KouroshS says:  "I absolutely am in favor of a covert plan, and may be even a bloodless coup.."

bad_bakht'e zaboun, Israelis have been contracting out some of their wars to U.S, now you are trying to contract your fight to Israelis? 

Keep working on it, maybe Israelis are that "stupid" to fall for your cofart plans!   

Bijan khan

I enjoyed reading the information that you provided regarding your background and your political views as a young man.

I just wanted to make a short comment ( i will try to keep it as short as possible) on your hypothetical scenario. I must say that i hope no one is going to hate me for saying this, but in the event such horrible tragedy takes place, we must look at the situation from an american's perspective as well. You know that they will want swift and immediate retaliation. They will even demand it.

 At that point, diplomacy has obviously failed, and that would be proof that IRI Does not speak the diplomatic language and specially if there is hard evidence at hand that Pasdaran and baseejee's were in on it. With such proof at hand, would you not say that it would be best to teach these mullah's a lesson? Why should there be further investigation and search?

I absolutely am in favor of a covert plan, and may be even a bloodless coup to even topple these charlatans, to put the entire nation and the world's mind at peace.

Bijan khan

Thank you. This blog has served to reassure me that there are more reasonable, fair and intelligent people at large, than there are immediately around me! Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.  As for my less than gracious comment on another blog, my sincere apologies to you and those like yourself. I'm human and sometimes in sheer anger and disgust, I fail to consider the innocent bystanders. (although my sentiments toward that particular individual and others like him stand).

Now to your question: Covert and targeted action by the US (assuming the GW's and McCain's of the world are not in charge!) , and only AFTER all else has failed? I would likely not oppose. Same sort of action by Israel? I still have to say I would oppose it. Given their track record, I just can't find it in my heart to accept such risk with my country and my people. I'm sure you can understand even if you disagree.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your candor.

Ms. Holly,

I do respect your sentiment and opinion as I do that of any intelligent and civilized debater. While I believe we may have reached the end of our exchange, I wanted to throw in a few lines which may be repetitious to many who know my position but I will say it again for the record and for the benefit of those (including yourself) who may make assumptions in the vaccum.

Like yourself, I am a non-religious person but respect all those who keep their religion private and keep it away from politics. I was born a Jew and privately respect the traditions of that faith. I still wear the “Nalbeki” whenever I go to the synagogue for some occasions.  I was raised as an extremely liberal person in my teenage years and like many naïve and innocent youth I proudly considered myself a communist. In those days my views (even as a Jew) was against formation of state of Israel. This was in spite of being treated as a second class citizen in my own homeland even in pre-IRI era.

 My views gradually changed as I aged. I began to see Israel as a REALITY (regardless of the debate over the legitimacy of its formation). It exists and will remain to exist as long as the human race in its current state will remain in existence. Of course I don’t mean that Isreal’s current policies and policy makers will continue to exist. In my opinion the aggressive policies of Israel is the by-product of existential threats by the early PLO and other Arab states which is now being carried out by Hamas, IRI and IRI’s proxy, Hezbollah. I realize that these comments will make some to judge me as prejudiced, but, I know who I am and it does not bother me. For sure I have nothing against muslims because most everyone who I care about in my life was born as Muslim, including my life partner of 40 years. I assure you that there are many Iranian Jews who share my sentiments.

 If the climate created by visionaries like Anvar Sadaat and Yitzhak Robin had persisted, the whole dynamics of Middle East and the whole world would have been different. Even Yasser Arafat, who was probably the most ardent activist for destruction of Isreal, began to accept the reality of Israel’s existence in his late years.

 I apologize if I’ve slightly diverted from the main point of your blog, but, I think it is not entirely irrelevant. In spite of my candid response to your question I have been trying to see if I could find a fair question that would put you in the same spot as you have tried to put some minorities based on your interaction with some members of your community. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a highly educated professional in the US and have enjoyed dual citizenship for many years (like many members the Iranian.com community).



 The best that I could conjure up is this (which is not creative by any stretch of imagination):

Let’s assume there is a terrorist attack here in the US (in Southern CA.) that leads to loss of some (say a few, 2 or 3) lives. US intelligence discovers that the perpetrators were some Iranians tied to Pasdaran and Basij organization and the entire plot was orchestrated by and/or acknowledged by Khamenei & AhmadiNejad.  US demands surrender of Khamenie & AN to stand trial, or else.

 Now, here is the question: As a patriotic Iranian who also happens to be a United States citizen, will you support US if they attack Iran if Khamenei & AN do not surrender?

I think this is a fair question (at least as fair as yours). Let me give you my answer and make it easier for you. I DO NOT support an immediate attack. However, I DO support US if she tries every diplomatic and non-violent approach and end up empty handed. In that case I support COVERT plans by US to capture and destroy only those who planned murder of her citizen. 

Thanks again for your civilized debate.

Likewise Sag koochooloo

And it's OK. I can take stick ;)

HollyUSA

OK. I just wanted to tell you why you go some stick, that's all. Yes it is good to have a discussion. As for the crazed nutters opinion, I do not think we can just dismiss it as simply as that. We are responsible for our image and if we show aggression towards another nation, be it verbal or otherwise, we can't turn round and act like victims of some misunderstanding. There is NO need to wish death on people and expect them to take it as a formality, I prefer negotiation and diplomacy.

Anyway, nice speaking to you, good evening.

Sag Koochooloo

With all due respect, you are entitled to your opinions, have the right to post them here AND to refrain from asnwering the question if you so wish. I still think that if people just honestly and intelligently discuss things, it will lead to a better understanding of our differences and thus greater unity. As you see, many of us who disagree with eachother and even some who were/are suspicious of the intent behind the question have managed to exchange their thoughts and I dare say some of us have come to a better understanding of eachother that is in fact a more POSITIVE one than it might have been before. And I disagree that the world has an impression that 'we are crazed nutters' as you put it. A great many of those who did, no longer do after the June elections and all that ensued. Those who make the choice to continue to believe that 'we' at large are crazed nutters will continue to believe it because either 1) it serves to push their own agenda 2) they are prejudicial narrow minded fools who will not see reality if it hits them in the face. I can't (won't) make decisions based on such factors. It would amount to self censorship. Let's have some faith in humanity for God sake.

And 'minorities' applies to religious or ethnic or otherwise. I am one myself!

HollyUSA

But by quoting in your remarks "Iranian Minorities", you have re-confirmed that it is Minorities that you have been targeting as warmongers. And this is the aspect of your blog that people find suspect. It is as if you are preparing in advance who to scapegoat in event of war. I do not like this attitude which is displayed by IRI supporters in Iran and abroad.

Believe me, there are plenty of Muslim Iranians that I know that want military action to remove IRI from power. I know of one guy who fantasises about creating a special virus to illiminate Mullahs. And he is a Muslim. So lets not get into the same old routine of apportioning warmongering to Minorities, which is the impression your blog gives. Please do not deny it because your original content was addressed to Jews and you still say that you find no reason why it should have been changed, although people persuaded you to. It was your intent, as Shepesh said.

Iran (IRI) has a state-sponsored day that encourages all iranians to chant "Death to Israel". (Qods Day, "Hate Israel Day") Lets put warmongering and threatening behaviour into perspective. It is this type of behaviour that has lost Iran (IRI) its international reputation and has given the world the impression that we are crazed nutters who cannot be trusted.   

Shepesh

Sounds good. I am content to agree to disagree.

And I want to add that I realize that not all members of all Iranian minorties and particulary those who opted to remain in Iran after 1979 would condone military attack on Iran. And I would be the first to stand up in defense of any person regardless of ethnicity or religion, if they were innocent but accused of such a thing. Again, the reason I asked the question at all is because I am (looks like by geographical misfortune!) surrounded by a great many who do condone such actions and I just wanted to know how widespread the sentiment might be and why.

HollyUSA

Thanks for confirmation of your views. I am not sticking up or anyone in particular, only for common sense. Your original question to minorities shows your lack of understanding of every day life of Iranians in Iran. Iranian Jews are the LAST people in Iran to want war with Israel.

If war did occur (God forbid) and Israel did attack Iran, Iranian Jews will receive hostility and blamed by some as scapegoats. Even though they have nothing to do with the decision of war. I knwo many Jewish people and they are proud of being Iranian.

I hope that at least this point has promoted understanding and unity, iranians are just that. Nobody will welcome loss of life and destruction of their own country.

Lets agree to disagree and move on.

I agree with KouroshS

I don't think the child of divorce comparison is a good one. But I also think that for a great number of Iranians it isn't an 'emotion based'  choice at all. They simply don't identify with or feel rooted in any country other than Iran. It would kinda be like asking Kourosh if he would pick Pasta over Chelo Kabab ;)

Shepesh khan

You know to be honest I have been reading your posts and I'm a bit puzzled. The factual details don't add up, the approach is inconsistent, etc etc.  And your first comment sort of came across as you trying to stick up for Sag while using Bijan as a cover. When I called you on the Bijan issue, your response was 'well it was your intention that was the issue'. Do you read minds? Sorry but I don't do well with the all too common twisted communication. Say it like it is and we can talk. I may be wrong of course. So I'll tell you what, if it does turn out that I am mistaken I will own up and ask for your forgiveness. Fair?

Regardless of all that however, I assure you I don't condone the lack of civil liberties anywhere, and that includes Iran. Nor would I do anything to contribute to them. All we're doing is having a discussion albeit about a somewhat sensitive subject. Are you suggesting we should forego our liberties? I doubt it. This is not the Go To site for governmental decision making, I'm sure.

desi

A child of a divorce is naturally bound to love BOTH parents and a normal child would not pick one.

The fact that many iranians put their nationality above their religion is a choice they are making.