MISSING YOU

With all due respect David ET

You are so so wrong that I do not even know where to begin refuting your baseless statement.

Suffice to say that it was the reformists who began the movement that we have today. A democratic movement is not born over night. It is the result of a long process, and it all depends on how far the nation is prepared to go in the struggle.

The process for democratization began - or more precisely, restarted, because it had started with the 1979 revolution - right after the end of the Iran-Iraq war, when Kian, Iran-e Farda, Salaam, and Asr-e Maa began publishing, when "Ashaab-e Chehaar Shanbeh" began meeting in a restuarant in Tehran every Wednesday..... all the way to election of Khatami, the elections for the first city councils, the 6th Majles, the Teer 18 uprising, .... to Green Movement of 2009. But, you seem to believe that things were born suddenly, and even then you pretend that the reformists had no role in it.

I suggest that you read the following article to familiarize yourself with all the political groups in Iran after the Revolution, in order to understand where they come from, what their positions are and when the struggle for democracy began, or more precisely, re-started.

//www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbure...

History did not happen the way you and a few others here would like to pretend, and the pretence does not change it either.

Mammad

aynak

I must say for once, I disagree with you. I think David ET has a point in more or less saying that pussyfooting will only prolong the life of the Islamic Republic. I also wouldn't know about your 10-15 million supporter theory.

ZAJJEHYE MAADARAN, MARG E KHA`ENAAN.

JAAVID BAAD IRAN

Mousav i and Karoubi

Both of these men are being held captive or they may even be murdered at the hand of the regime which they helped establsihed. The IR terrorists are smart enough to realise by putting them on trial or executing them they will make martyrs out of them; thereofre they have been silently been taken away and put into solitary confinement. Eventually the people's anger will subside and with no opposition figure to look up to both men will be forgotten as they rot away in prison. This is exactly what they did to Montazeri, Ayhatolah Boroujerdi and Frood Fouladvand.

Mousavi will be forgotten the same way as Boroujerdi. Who in Iran remembers Bouroujerdi anymore but a handful of his supporters? Who amongst the many young Iranians have heard of Broujerdi who was the most radical secular mullah in Iran?

The IR terrorist government is skillful at silencing the opposition and this is why the Green movement will ultimately fail. Any opposition movement in Iran needs to be supported by strategic military strikes either by a Liberation Army airforce or the US. 

Death to the IR.  

Don't miss them...

Don't miss them. They are just getting a taste of their own medicine…

آقا رستم می‌‌بخشینا

ولی اگه دادگاه ملی‌ باشه که دیگه یک میلیون آدم توی خیابونا نمیریزه. یک میلیون آدم می‌رن توی دادگاه!

ImtheKing

میفرمایید: 

"حالا اگر طرفدار های موسوی و کروبی هم که کم نیستند بیان بگن اینا گناه کار نیستند، شما میگی حرفشون ارجعیت نداره !! اگر رفیقای خارجی نشین شما بگن، اعدامشون کنید، حرف اونا اونوقت رو بقیه ارجعیت داره؟"

اولا ضروریه که این "خارجی‌ نشین" به شمای "داخلی‌ نشین" تذکر بده که واژه درستش ارجحیت هست نه ارجعییت.

و اما در جواب، نه، هیچ کدام از این دو دسته حرفشون ارجحیت نداره.

در یک کشور متمدن و آزاد، این "ملت" نیست که گناه و یا بی‌ گناهی کسی‌ رو تعیین میکنه. این دادگاه‌های ملت هستند که  این امور رو تعیین میکنند. 

برای مثال اگر روزی ایران آزاد میشد و خمینی هنوز زنده می‌‌بود و یک دادگاه ملی‌ بر پایهٔ مدارک انکار ناپذیر خمینی رو محکوم به اعدام و یا حبس ابد میکرد، حتی اگر یک میلیون از طرفداران خمینی تو خیابانها میریختند و به حکم دادگاه اعتراض میکردند، باز هم حکم دادگاه باید اجرا میشد.

این مثال در مورد هیتلر، خلخالی و امثالهم نیز صدق میکنه. و همینطور هم در مورد همدستان جنایتکاران تاریخ، حالا میخواد موسوی باشه یا هر کس دیگه.

اضافه می‌کنم که اگر موسوی و کروبی بتوانند نقش عمده‌ای برای نجات ایران و سقوط جمهوری کثیف اسلامی ایفا کنند، صد البته که هر دادگاه عادلی میتونه حکم تبرئه این دو رو صادر کنه و یا حداقل بهشون تخفیف بده.

بنا بر این، این عملکردهای امروز موسوی و کروبی هستش که سرنوشت و تکلیفشون رو در آینده تعیین خواهد کرد. آیا در حال حاضر و در طی ۲۰ ماه اخیر عملکرد این دو کافی‌ بوده؟ با توجه به ابعاد گستردهٔ جنایات رژیم در ۳۲ سال اخیر، جواب به راحتی‌ "نه" هستش. فحش و ناسزا شنیدن و یا توی خانهٔ خود حبس شدن، اینها برای جبران کافی‌ نیست. ولی‌ آیا میشه ۱۰ سال دیگه هم منتظر نشست؟ باز هم جواب "نه" هستش.

به عقیده من تا حداکثر یک سال دیگه تکلیف موسوی و کروبی با ملت روشن میشه. بعدش هم اگر کاری از پیش نبردند، زباله دانی‌ تاریخ در انتظارشون هست. همون زباله دانی‌ که امروز منزل بنی‌ صدر و رجوی هست.

Doostan do not get defocused

There are two issues here:

1:Deltangi of those who support Mousavi and Karoubi as their leaders

2:Objection of all of us, to the violation of their human rights.

I am not sure what purpose it serves if we come out here and say they should be in prison, or it is a good thing they are arrested.   Hello?   It is not like they have been jailed after a trial by International Crime Court, is it?    It is Ahmadi-Nejad and Khamaneh-ee who have found their freedom  harmful to their regimes interest.

If for whatever they did, after 32 years, they say, there can be a better reading of Islam, a gentler more compassionate view, should we condemn that?   Or should we welcome it?

I have said it and repeat it, for the sake of humanity, there better be a non-Khamaneh-ee Hezbollahi, Talebani reading of Quoran, no?

Mousavi himself, looks to me like a reluctant leader of his own camp.   Get off your high horse, and start defending his human rights.   Sure, I fully disagree with his return to Golden Age of Imam, but in a society where you can get executed for trivial thing, we should advocate a fair/open trial for them.   We should use their arrest, to best help Iran to move forward.

Ask yourself, if just saying they were with regime helps anything, but the regime?    We should try to bring people on the fence on our side, not to push them further back or ignore them.   In Iran, they would easily enjoy a 10~15 million supporter TODAY.  Think about what it means.   Think about defending their rights, and ask them once they are free one day, what hellped them to get free?   Our coming together as Iranian!  Not our religous or personal differences.    I doubt Mousavi and Karoubi at this point seriously believe in Islamic government, but they are already being held for much less charges.

Still, I would not be surprised, if Mousavi comes out and says, yes, this system had completely and outterly failed us.   But let's push him to reach that decison. 

May we all have good dreams.

More for David ET

Perhaps I should also add that, in the case of Mousavi and Karrubi, you could probably not apply what you deem as applicable in the Human Rights Declaration as none were directly involved in the killings. However, as they were part of the system (like Goering, Goebbels and the rest), they could be tried on that basis, leaning upon the amount of information they were aware of -- at least concerning the murders -- which, I'm sure you'll agree, is difficult to prove anyway. But then it can be considered as common sense that they surely must have known, and not only about that, but about every other single trampling of Iranians' rights.

In any case, we're not there yet!

David ET

It would be a matter of majority and minority anyway because it would be the laws that people choose to apply to their land (if it's a democracy) through majority, be it a parliamentarian democracy, or any other sort.
But then it could also become a matter of direct voting if say, laws such as in Switzerland were applied where almost everything is decided through direct suffrage.
The Human Rights declaration doesn't set punishments for when the rights are stepped upon, it just sets the lines and boundaries by which to go.

Now more than ever

I am reassured my view that the refirmists have been the real cause of IR being in power so long and are to blame.

1- Fundamentalists have always been reactionary and have never changed so their status and never will

2- Reformists for more than 30 years have stated and insisted that:

a- Fundamentalists are reformable  or

b- Reformists can reform fundamenstalist    or

c- The reformists can rule and win over fundamentalists

all within the system of Islamic Republic .

All above theories today more than ever have proven wrong and the price for this was paid by Iranian People´s misery during the past 30+ years.

If it was not for reformists, this system 

1- Would not have been created

2- Would not have penetrated in to all the systems and gained as much power

3- People would not have been mislead for so long 

Now the dragon that has been fed for so long is much difficult to overcome than before.

Fair Justice is not a matter of public preference

is not a matter of majority and minority. Justice is simply appication of the law of the land and in a democracy those laws are based on universal declarations of human rights.

Therefore this subject of what majority votes for or not in case of past actions is irrelevant.

In a democracy all are answerable to fair and just laws equally regardless of their position or public opinion.

Parham and Comrade -velesh

In all honesty, this website is just full of fanatical savages, and no one takes it seriously anyway. 

Don't waste your time. Your generosity will .... just become...

part of....

cringe

cringe...

cringe... 

Va zemnan

بنظر نمیاد هنوز کسی عمق این که کشتار ها چه جنایت بزرگی بوده رو درک کنه. روزی که آبها از آسیاب بیفته، شاید بفهمیم که حتی از بزرگترین جنایات قرن گذشته بوده٬

PBS !?

On Iran, politics or world affairs? As proof of what? that another Islamist POV got aired? along with soroush, ganji and rest of those who somehow end up with the microphone and public pen? 

Using PBS airing of the same old tired half truths & excuses from well known 'reformist' like Sahimi (ala Shariati/Khatami et al) as evidence? That paint has got no color anymore. Heck we got original collaborator islamists like S.H. Nasr's son as Obama advisor (Vali); so what exactly do you expect PBS or other media to air?

Yes, lets ignore he was the PM when thousands were systematically murdered. So he is either a criminal or too gullible to lead anything. No amount of justification by wishful 'documentation' will reduce crimes and involvement of Mousavi as part of a murderous anti-human regime with Khomeini as symbol of its enlightenment. They can stand in back of the line because in a democratic system they will be tolerated. Don't confuse that with majority or leadership.

And then conveniently attributing the movement of a frustrated, beaten down nation to these fossils? The miserable failure of reform and its role in creation and longevity of the current group has been beyond apparent for at least 5 years but this is only obvious 'if you are willing and capable of thinking' to notice that the staunchest supporters of the rapist republic are and have been in U.S. for well over 3 decades, including Sahimi. It is difficult to tell their faces from their #$$$.

With friends like these, Iran needs no enemies.

Oktaby

Imtheking

میگم اگه یه خورده به دمکراسی فکر میکردیم بد نبود... حرف اونا معادل حرف بقیه است. معمولاً اکثریت تعیین میکنه، با توجه به اینکه حق اقلیت پایمال نشه٬ اگر دمکراسی باشه اصلاً حرف به این چیزها نمیرسه٬

واضحترش: حرف طرفداران پرو پا قرص موسوی و کروبی ــ نه اونهایی که این دو رو بهانه کرده اند که بخیال خودشون به آزادی برسند ــ در یک سیستم دمکراتیک هیچ با ارزشتر از حرف بقیه ملت نیست، همینطور که حرف بقیه ملت هیچ با ارزشتر از اینها نیست٬

در یک دمکراسی واقعی، اگر فکرشو بکنین، که اصلاً جایی برای بکار آوردن اشخاصی با چنین پرونده هایی هم نیست. بهرحال هر دو مقامی داشته اند و سالها خاموش بوده اند. الآن هم که ساکت نیستند، باز هم بنفع همون رژیم صحبت میکنند. مثل اینکه یک عده طرفدار گورینگ و گوبلز باشند که بعد از اینکه هیتلر افتاد بخوان اونا رو بیارن سر کار. بیشتریا فکرشو نمیکنن، ولی این اصلاً با عقل جور در نمیاد. همه در تب ماجراها غرقند و میخوان زودتر قضایا به جایی برسه چون آسی شده اند، واسه همین به اولین جرقه دل خوش کرده اند، برای همین حقیقت امر رو نگاه نمیکنند. الآن موقعیه که مردم از این دو نفر بکشن بیرون و یکپارچه دمکراسی بخوان. اونموقع داستان بجایی میرسه. این نظر من٬

پرهام،

شما هم که مثل این آخوندا شروع کردی به عام و خاص کردن ! گفتی که ملت ایران تعین میکنند که کی گناه کاره، کی نیست، حالا اگر طرفدار های موسوی و کروبی هم که کم نیستند بیان بگن اینا گناه کار نیستند، شما میگی حرفشون ارجعیت نداره رو بقیه!! اگر رفیقای خارجی نشین شما بگن، اعدامشون کنید، حرف اونا اونوقت رو بقیه ارجعیت داره؟
کی ارجعیت حرف دیگرانو رو بقیه تعیین میکنه ؟ سد علی؟ شما ؟ کی؟

Imtheking

چرا، اتفاقاً اونها هم ایرانی هستند. ولی حرف اونا هیچ ارجعیتی به حرف بقیه ایرانیها نداره٬

اصلاح‌طلبان انحصار طلب

موسوی و کروبی را هم گرفتند و با وجود  ادعاها و نسخه ‌های
اصلاح طلبان ، در ایران قیامت نشد! بار دیگر اثبات شد که اصلاح طلبی و
قانون اساسی‌ اسلامی و دوران طلای امام دیگر خریدار ندارد و اگر هم مردم از
اول کاندیدایی تا بحال این دو را حمایت کردند ، نه بخطر آنها بلکه یک حرکت
تاکتیکی برای رسیدن به هدف اصلی‌ و آن هم آزادی ایران از جمهوری اسلامی
بطور کلی‌ (و رهبرانش) بود. علی‌رغم ادعاهای اصلاح‌طلبان انحصار طلب این
جنبش در باره موسوی و کروبی نبود و برای آزادی و دموکراسی بود.

مگر بروجردی یک مسلمان و آیت‌الله نیست، پس چرا همین موسوی و کروبی یک
کلمه در مورد زندانی بودن وی هیچوقت حرف نزدند. مردم چشم دارند و میبنند.
همه زندانیان سیاسی باید آزاد شوند و خون هیچکدام رنگی‌ ترن از دیگری
نیست.

Bavaffa

Mast Kardi baz?

I get it. It is Shabe Jomeh. Do you wanna be entitled to your opinion or not? It is up to you.

I am sorry for your Khar, Next time settle for a doggy:)

Parham

Dige don't push it buddy ol' pal.  I have Three Phd's and Three Post docs. Enyy more kuessionzz???

Well said Aynak !!!! if

Well said Aynak !!!!

if there is a lesson to get from all this its excactly what you said...THANK YOU for your intelligent and deep comment ! 

"The better test of where you stand, is not whether you have compassion for those like yourself, but will you defend the right of Khamaneh-ee to a fair trial? Will you object, if Shariat-madari the torturer of Evin, is one day tortured?  "

besiar nokteye jalebi bood takandahande....va az in lahaz hanooz kar daram be inja beresam cause today my honest answer will be yes for a fair trial with a good lawyer for him but i don't think it will truly bother me if he get tortured ....and its wrong ! WE CAN ALLOW OURSELF BE LIKE THEM NOT EVEN A INCH !

  What is this state of

What is this state of mind of yours ????????!!!!

Each time someone do something good for Iran we hurry to push him down and to discredit him ???? Don't you understand that even bad guys can do good things in a lifetime ?

What they did was benefical for Iran. We all know about their past  and how they get there...what was new was the big failure caused in june 2009. we also knew the system had to crack down from inside and it happpenned !! we could easily amplify it and cause the implosion but we didn't we kept saying ina hame az ye jensan, ina inan, oonan, ray dadan shaarm dare,...very infertile talks !! we need actions and we need tactics and strategy to reach our aim.

We should keep our prosecuting desires for when Iran is really free...jelo jelo mirid o hija nemiressid !

For now Iran is still in khamenyi's hands  and any iranian deserves to be in his jails Not even this two guys and wives !

Patriot i totally agree with your comment !

Train of unity, to defend the human rights of all, join it to

Train of unity, to defend the human rights of all, join it to achieve true progress.

The day majority of Iranians are ready to defend the rights of any Iranian is the day we are ready for democracy.   This means I don't have to be a Mojahed to defend the human rights of a Mojahed.   This means I don't have to be a Bahai to defend the rights of a Bahai to practice or preach his/her faith.   This means I don't have to be a  supporter of Mousavi, OR Karoubi, to defend their rights to speak their mind and not be beaten or arrested for it.    When any Iranian, takes pleasure, because they disagreed with Shah, they celeberates HIS sons death, who had nothing to do with his fathers crime,  when any Iranian cheers when Faezeh is assulted, because her father Rafsanjani is a criminal, that means that Iranian in his/her fabric has not truly understood the meaning of the word democracy, THE ONLY thing that can save us from the mess we are in, and not flee in ever larger numbers to other countries, is to defend the human rights of ALL, like our own.

The better test of where you stand, is not whether you have compassion for those like yourself, but will you defend the right of Khamaneh-ee to a fair trial?    Will you object, if Shariat-madari the torturer of Evin, is one day tortured?

May we all have good dreams.

پرهام،

ملت کی اند ؟ اونایی که تو خیابونهای ایران زیر باتوم میگن "یا حسین، میر حسین"حساب نیستند؟ اصلا عزیز، شما که از دموکراسی دم میزنی معنیشو میدونی ؟ اونطور که بوش میاد دموکراسی به طعم شما یعنی هر کی هم عقیدته !

You can now say Goodbye to Sanctions (bbc on China)

The focus on social stability was echoed in an editorial in the Communist Party-run Beijing Daily that coincided with the opening of the Congress and which warned against any Middle East-inspired pro-democracy protests.

China premier targets 'stability' (bbc)

China has opposed intervention in Libya and You can bet it will be Business as Usual with Iran now ...

Thank Your Lobbies for turning the US foreign policy into an instrument for petty dictators and tyrants of the third world who couldn't care less about what America thinks or does anymore.

China and Russia are the new emerging economic and military powers and Turkey will become the Power Broker in the Middle East.

You can say goodbye to Regime change in Your life Time.

The IRI is hear and here to Stay:

Thank You Obama ! 

Sahimi

In the article from your link you wrote:

"I am not trying to exonerate Mousavi. If he had executive responsibility for the executions, he must defend himself someday. But there is presently no credible evidence that indicates that he was involved in the decision-making process that led to the executions, or that he was even aware of what was going on until it was too late."

Really? Of course there is no hard evidence today that Mousavi was directly responsible. What did you think? That he will come forward and admit he knew about those executions or had a role in it? Or some reformist "khodi" would accuse him of it? Or perhaps the hardliners would accuse him of having a role in the massacre?
 
The answer to all of the above questions is no. You think you are clever? The only way any evidences could possibly surface is in a future freed Iran.
 
Until then it is safe to assume that "at the very least" he knew about the executions since the massacre was too large scaled to be kept secret from someone at Mousavi's level.
 
And you call this a "cliche"??? How convenient Dr. Sahimi, how convenient. I wonder if you would have considered it also a cliche if we would replace Mousavi and IRI with Hoveyda and Monarchy.
 
vali in shegeft avar nist. jenabeali, hamisheh yar ghare regime boodid. hala bar sare ghodrat, tooye regime beyne khodetoon davaa shodeh va albateh shoma tarafe mousavi ro gereftid. vali agar beyne khodetoon davaa nashodeh bood chi?

baseh digeh in hameh riya kaari va tazvir va neyrangi. adam halesh be ham mikhoreh.

They Deserve It

Musavi and Karrubi watched for 30 years as IRI executed nearly 30,000 people and they cooperated with the regime. Now since Ahmadinejad, a simple Pasdar, became president & Musavi is left with no positions he's turned into a freedom-fighter! Or Mohsen Rezaii complains about election fraud!!!! The man was chief of IRGC responsible for massacre of thousands and he screams injustice!!!  The other charlatan Rafsanjani who put Khamenehii in power now claims to be against the killings as if the other 29900 killings he witnessed & kept quiet were ants!

They all make me puke. If I had the power I wipe all mollahs off the earth and flatten every "Hozeye-Elmieh", mosque, church, synagogue or religion-bazar in the country. They're snake nests.

Patirot

You wrote: "While Iranians inside Iran were getting ready to vote in the presidential election, there were people outside Iran, some of them right here on this very blog right now, who said that the election had to be boycotted. They were taking pride in the fact that theyhad never participated in an election under the IRI."

That's right, they were many Iranians also INSIDE Iran who wanted the elections to be boycotted. They claimed that the elections were a sham. Since I was one of them, now today on the behalf of election boycotters, I ask you, will you vote next time? Do you now agree that the elections under the IRI is a pretense? Yes or no?

If you answer no, then you have learnt nothing from the past two years. If you answer yes, then you have just joined our camp, you know, those guys who wanted to boycott the elections.

Next question: If another election is held tomorrow, will you boycott it? Yes or no?

So who was right all along?

You also wrote, "Thank goodness the people inside Iran were not listening to the guys outside Iran telling them to boycott. They participated in those elections and made history."

Will they listen now? Will they participate tomorrow? No, of course they won't. Besides, had the people boycotted the election, they would have made history as well, maybe even a better one.

So you went full circle, after much violence, death, rape and imprisoment, only to finally figure that the elections are fake and should be boycotted? Couldn't we have reached the same conclusion without all the needless deaths and violence?

Those who actually care about human lives would answer yes.

By the way, you sound as though it was the "participation" in the election that caused "history". You are false. It was not "participating" in the election that caused the protests and what followed. It was the exposing of the "fraudulant" and "bogus-ness" nature of IRI elections that finally brought the people in the streets to protest. And that "fraudulant" nature is what the opponents of voting were talking about all along.

The people pouring in the streets to protest the fake elections was a confirmation of the views of the election-boycotters, and the refutation of the views of election-proponents.

Iran MarzBan

background when they was on power, so forget about them /non of them are close to be a better person for Iran future,

 they are now in custody cuz ppl asked themselves, HOW COME WE ARE IN JAIL AND HOW COME OUR PPL DIE AND SUFFER DURING THESE GREEN(YELLOW) TIMES ... by SUPPORTING THE MUSAVI<KARUBI ETC< BUT THEY ARE FREE AND WE SHOULD BARE THE SUFFER < !!!! now these question came up and now Game is over showing me and you that  take them to Jail l! many games come continually

PPL by Following them get nothings !

mr. Tokyoarea

if you mean that karoubi and mousavi want to go back to to golden era yes you are right BUT the people of iran don`t as i said mousavi is a BAHANE most of people don't like eslah talabs people want a regim change. don`t insult the greens you have seen the vids they want a regim chane mousavi is a nobody people decide about the future