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Radical by Nature
20-Aug-2011
The presumption that the MEK would transform itself into a “moderate” political group if delisted is flawed. The MEK did not become “radical” as a result of being “listed” as a terrorist organization in 1997. It was an extremist group way before that date. What fuels its radicalism and taste for terrorism is not how it is termed by the State Department or the nature of its relationship with the U.S, but its fanatical ideology, pugnacious discourse, undemocratic structure, leadership, mission and agenda. So unless the act of delisting provokes by itself a miraculous mutation in the group’s genetic fabric (something that proponents of delisting have to prove), there is absolutely no reason to believe that the MEK would or even could go against its own nature and fundamentally change its behavior solely because of a new legal status. Expecting an inherently violent and erratic organization to relinquish its raison d'être and become pragmatic because of a mere change of designation is as absurd as removing a snake from the list of “reptiles” and expecting it to act as peaceful dove.
Delisting the MEK would more likely allow it to advance its agenda with more freedom and with much more funding and act out its twisted vision with a credibility bestowed upon it by a U.S stamp of approval.
Of course, no one denies that an unconventional political group, a paramilitary or any other non-state actor could potentially moderate itself if it is engaged in a conventional political process. But the conversion from an eccentric actor to a rational one is not automatic. And not every group is capable of it. It requires a minimum of rationality and reasonableness amongst the group’s leadership. It takes some element of moderation – eventually represented by a faction within the group - that can be enhanced and boosted through engagement and recognition. But with the MEK, we’re talking about a senseless monolithic cult - with absolutely no voice or seeds of moderation inside – with a violent mentality and language that has not evolved one bit since 1980 (they still shout “death to Khomeini” in their rallies 22 years after the former leader’s demise). We’re talking about a cult that did not hesitate to go as far as instructing its own members to set themselves ablaze for the sheer purpose of attracting media attention when it wanted to coerce France to release Maryam Rajavi after she was detained by a French judge for a few days in Paris in 2003.
So, the subject of debate is not a normal political group that has at one point made few bad choices, then reformed and now deserves a second chance to integrate. But an inherently spiteful and unbridled cult in which members are still expected to show an excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to their immovable leaders, where mind-altering practices (such as group chanting, collective rituals, denunciation sessions) are daily routine and where violence and coercion have been deeply engrained as very legitimate tools of achieving the end. Therefore, it is very unlikely that removing the MEK from the FTOs list would suddenly make its guru-style leaders change their ways (the only ways they know) or awaken the dormant forces of compromise and rationality within it so that it can act as a rational political actor.
Moreover, even if we accept the improbable assertion that delisting the MEK may somehow moderate its future behavior, it is still not a solid reason to do so. The State Department’s mission is not to close its eyes on the realities, history and current nature of an organization under review and to forgo all statutory criteria for designation in hope of taming or pacifying it. Its mission is to assess the current state of the organization and make a decision based on what it sees. A mere hypothetical prospect – or hope - of “moderating” the group in the future should not counterbalance all the actual and real facts supporting its designation as a FTO. If a group qualifies as a “terrorist organization” under U.S law based on its past actions, nature, ideology and material capacity to act violently then it should simply be called a “terrorist organization”. In other words, the process of designation is not about how we hope a particular group would act if delisted; but about what the group is or isn’t in its current form. Not calling a demonstrably dangerous organization what it so to induce it to change is not exactly a prudent or wise policy. Besides, it would send a terrible message to all other terrorist organizations about the United States’ resolve to fight terrorism.
Finally, among the State Department’s list of FTOs, the MEK is in one grim sense one of the few exceptions: The current leaders of the MEK, unlike the leaders of many other listed FTOs, are suspected with very probable cause of the highest and most serious crimes under international law – especially of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Whilst the members and/or leaders of many other FTOs – vicious and violent as they may be - are considered common criminals, outlawed rebels or simply “terrorists” liable for criminal prosecution under their respective domestic jurisdictions, the seriousness, nature and gravity of the crimes imputable to the MEK leadership is such that it makes them prone to prosecution in just any territory that they could be found. In other words, we’re not just talking about “terrorists” or “corrigible terrorists” that some proponents may, by a stretch of logic, even call “freedom fighters” but about alleged perpetrators of the most heinous and wanton crimes known to mankind. For this reason, it would be both irresponsible as a political act and disastrous as a legal precedent for U.S officials to take the risk of legalizing and legitimizing a group accused of the highest crimes, simply in hope of “moderating” its future behavior. Just imagine what sort of message such laxity could send to both the defenders and violators of international criminal law.
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تا بیگانه دوست باشیم و خود ستیز شب ما پایانی ندارد
rashidTue Aug 23, 2011 10:07 AM PDT
اول از همه اینکه نه تنها مجاهدین بلکه هیچکدام از گروه های سیاسی یا نظامی کار خارجی و داخلی پایگاهی در میان توده مردم در داخل ایران ، و شاید هم در خارج ، ندارند . وقتی هم جایگاهی در میان مردم نداشته باشند میروند دنبال انواع زدو بند و قول و قرار با خارجی ها . دولتهای (دموکراتیک ) بیگانه هم از خداخواسته اینها را برای اهداف انسان دوستانه حرفی و عملا استعماری ، به کار میگیرند . گردانندگان دنیا به همه جور ابزاری برای پیش برد کار خود احتیاج دارند . فیس بوک و تویتر و بی بی سی و سایر رفقا به جای خود ، ناتو هم که گوش به فرمان است ، خیل عظیم روشنفکرها و سیاسی کاران بعضآ مزد بگیر هم که به انجام وظیفه مشغولند . ولی اینها کافی نیست لازم است بزن بهادر های زخم خورده ای هم زیر شصت خود داشته باشند تا اگر با روشهای به گفته خودشان دموکراتیک نتوانستند به مقاصد غیر دموکراتیک خود برسند آنوقت ایرانیان زخم خورده شاید بتوانند کاری بکنند .
البته به تصور من دولتهای غربی ، که در رآس آنها استاد اعظم انگلستان تشریف دارد ، مایل نیستند در ایران تحولی اساسی صورت گیرد بلکه میخواهند با یک انقلاب صوری مانند مصر و لیبی و با ایجاد اصلاحاتی نیم بند عناصر غیر قابل کنترل جمهوری اسلامی را هم از صحنه به در کنند و بجایشان دوستانی جدید را بنشانند . به عراق و افغانستان نگاه کنید به زور هم شده بیشتر دشمنان سابق ، از آخوند گرفته تا کرواتی و کلاهی و غیره ، را در کنار هم نشاندند و دولتهائی شتر گاو پلنگ در این دو کشور بلاتکلیف سرهم بندی کردند . گویا قصد دارند در ایران هم یک چنین الگوئی را پیاده کنند وبنابر این باید ابزار کارشان کامل باشد .
به هر صورت تآسف آور است که ما ایرانیها به درجه ای از ضعف و تباهی سقوط کرده ایم که صبح تا شب دنبال تآیید و حمایت و مجوز از دولتهای و مجالس و باندهای بیگانه برآمده ایم . تاریخ دویست سال اخیر ایران نشان میدهد اگر با توسل به خارجی ها هزاری حکومت و نظام عوض کنیم نهایتآ جز بدبختی و درماندگی چیزی نصیب ما نمیشود .
به امید اینکه روزی ایرانیان به خود برگردند و به جای خود زنی ، خودستیزی ، و بیگانه پرستی در مقابل دشمنان یا طمع کنندگان به ایران متحد شوند .
Thanks VPK for your note....
by Disenchanted on Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:01 PM PDTHowever I think our enthusiast bloggers on this site would have to drop their keyboards and get in line ova there! :-)
There is no such thing as freedom of expression. Not only their utterances but their thoughts even their dreams will be examined by a committee of Mustache bearing brethren :-)
and SEX! WHAT?!waz that?! It's gonna be all dry except for "Mustache"ier in cheif!
If they get to get out (and that is a big if) they would be mudied and crying this is not we were promised! OOPS! :-)
Dear Disenchanted
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:17 AM PDTI don't think the MEK supporters will have any trouble in Ashraf. Because they will be a part of the leadership and running it! They will get stake and wine while the rest eat stale bread and water.
Plus an Israeli provided helicopter to take them out if things get bad. With guaranteed asylum and plenty of money. Therefore I don't think they will have any problems.
Loved your comment "TheMrs"
by Disenchanted on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:43 AM PDTMay those who can be fooled one=ce and twice and ....without shame would take a note :-)
Would Dr. Kazemzadeh go to live in Camp Ashraf?! :-)
by Disenchanted on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:37 AM PDTThose of you who are in love with MEK, would you consdier spending a week in Camp Ashraf?! :-)
Come on. Book a trip! Go in there and enjoy! You'd be a different person when and if you come back! You would be fed Rajavi's larger than life posters for breakfast, lunch and dinner plus listening to soothing voice of Madam Rajavi :-)
Come on guys you deserve a treat after all the hard work and devotion to Masoud! Bring your swimsuits along with MK 47:-)
Someone's profile says that
by Anahid Hojjati on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:27 AM PDThe was born year of revolution 1958. I don't know what revolution he is writing about, certainly not Iran's :).
MEK have been FRESHLY put on the terrorist list!
by Esfand Aashena on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:13 AM PDTAs of just about 2 months ago on May 19, 2011 MEK was freshly put on the terrorist list in the 28th spot. They're not going anywhere!
Now a lot of people say knowing what we know now we would NEVER support Khomeini to have any kind of power. Right? So knowing what we know now about MEK, why would we EVER support MEK to have any kind of power?
Is there really a shortage of better organizations or individuals to support than MEK? If so then screw it all!
Everything is sacred
@ Hamid: "IRI can buy the best PR and perhaps any web site"
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Mon Aug 22, 2011 09:23 AM PDTA lot of us have been wondering .......
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."
political movements with
by TheMrs on Mon Aug 22, 2011 09:19 AM PDTpolitical movements with life long leaders, uniforms, religious ideology, camps, multi generational leaders etc should be a thing of the past. Also, leaders who are "supreme", "holy", "master", "royal" etc are to be despised.
If you can't vote them out of office, don't keep them in politics.
Islamic Rapist of Iran has deep pockets,
by ham1328 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 07:46 AM PDTso it can buy the best PR and perhaps any web site!! Even those who are sacred.....
Hamid,
I don't know what's going
by vildemose on Mon Aug 22, 2011 07:36 AM PDTI don't know what's going to happen to the de-listing effort but Masoud and Maryam Rajavi should be behind bars until further notice. They should not be free, period.
"Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe." Robert Browning in 'Ceuciaja'
I.com doesn't allow u 2 change anything once u submit an article
by Esfand Aashena on Mon Aug 22, 2011 06:54 AM PDTYou can change or delete your "blogs" but not "articles" and also not your "profile". This is just a math bug since i.com is a "Made In Iran" product!
Everything is sacred
Esfand:
by Raoul1955 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 06:50 AM PDTSometimes folks cancel their accounts, but return and restart! Just a thought! I don't think that some conspiracy is in play here, but imagination is free to ...
Something wrong with Reza Nasri's i.com profile.
by Esfand Aashena on Mon Aug 22, 2011 06:39 AM PDTIt says he's been a member for 1 year but his first article was in 2009! Funny math!
Everything is sacred
.
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:02 AM PDT.
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."
Defending their ACTS not just their RIGHTS
by Disenchanted on Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:56 PM PDT"Dr"! Kazemzadeh claims to only defend POMI/MEK's civil liberties. But as far as we (Bavafa, VPK, Mammad, Ramin,...) can say there is every indication that he is indeed defending their ACTS not just their RIGHTS!
How else he can justify his desperate attempts to put a lipstick on this pig and deny the MEK leadership ever engaged in crimes against Iranian and iraqi people.
Dear Ramin
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:43 PM PDTNo you are not the only one. However there are some people here who will call your claim "libel" as they did to me; even though I did not even say that! There is a concerted attempt to silence any voice that is opposing MEK.
When you get
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:40 PM PDTMammad and I agreeing you know there is some truth there :-) We have very different points of view but agree over MK. Dr. Mossadegh must be turning in his grave now.
This is also the last time I will take MK or his side seriously. However I will reserve the right to debunk his claims. Because if we let them go without response people may believe them.
Masoud Kazemzadeh is a MEK mole?
by Ramin J on Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:32 PM PDTAm i the only one who suspects that "professor" Masoud Kazemzadeh - have you ever read a scientific article by him? - is a MEK mole?
He poses as a nationalist and Jebhe Melli, references his Mickey Mouse University, but his real mission seems to solely be on advancing the agenda of the MEK.
Now when teh MEK issue has reached its climax and decision making time has arrived due to the pending delisting, the MEK mole's are shredding their disguises and revealing their true identities.
Masoud Kazemzadeh has lost his disguise. As has Hassan Dai.
Well put Mammad....
by Disenchanted on Sun Aug 21, 2011 05:22 PM PDTI brought this ugly contradiction to MK's attention. Claiming to be nationalist and defending the worst traitors Iran has seen in its recent history.
He is either confused or an impostor! There is one thing to defend gay rights another to engage in homosexual activity! :-)
Do not waste your time
by Mammad on Sun Aug 21, 2011 04:11 PM PDTarguing with the "nationalist" that supports war and sanctions on Iran, and sides with a treacherous cult that has committed numerous treasons against Iran, disguising himself as a supporter of a true hero and true model of true nationalism, Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh. This is the last time I ever comment on anything this man says. I now know the true nature of this "nationalist."
Mammad
Have you noticed
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 03:36 PM PDTMK only talks to those who are not critical of him. I guess the rest of us do not exist in his "democracy". God help us if MK's version of democracy is the next regime.
responses
by Masoud Kazemzadeh on Sun Aug 21, 2011 03:17 PM PDTDear G. Rahmanian,
I agree. Thanks.
Best,
Masoud
Shazde jaan,
:-)
Best,
Masoud
Dear AO,
Good one.
Masoud
Roozbeh jaan,
Thanks for your contributions.
Best,
Masoud
It is wonderful to see our enemies frustrated. It means the pro-democracy are doing their job right.
:-)
MK
Dear Disenchanted: Indeed it has been like talking to a wall
by Bavafa on Sun Aug 21, 2011 02:50 PM PDTMany of us feel your frustration regarding the discussion with MK.
However if reports are true, it seems common sense has prevailed within State Dept. and has kept this cultish group on the list of terrorist group. This should be celebrated as a victory for Iranian people who are rejecting dictatorship, tyranny, coming to power thru crimes/betrayal and an Islamist cultish for the future of Iran funded and supported by special interest. This ought to be celebration in rejecting evilness towards Iranian people.
Funny thing, it has been claimed by MK that "a very large majority of the posters support the de-listing of the PMOI" looks like State Dept has not seen it so.
//www.iran-emrooz.net/index.php?/news2/30674/
But the work and effort should not stop here as there is another evil regime in Tehran that must be defeated. All concerned Iranians and Iranian-Americans must help and bring all human rights violation committed in Iran and at the hands of IRI to light and attention. NIAC should put a more concentrate effort in exposing all human rights violation and spear head efforts to bring those violators to justice.
Again, I do hope this report is to be true.
'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory
Mehrdad
Dear Bavafa thank you. You are Correct...
by Disenchanted on Sun Aug 21, 2011 02:13 PM PDTIt is frustrating. They say it's like talking to a wall! But we have an important job to do here. I have to thank everyone who is spending time and energy here to keep this site clean from MEK propaganda.
To know them is to hate them. All we have to do is to show anyone who is unaware, and I doubt there are many of them, what is the history and ideology of this group. Not everyone has followed the shameful history of this group for past decades and may know the degree of contempt that Iranians hold towards them.
Likes of MK are trying to put a lipstick on this pig! :-)
Most telling is that all those who make noise and spread nonsensical arguments in defence of this group try to distance themselves from the leadership and ideology of the group and we are yet to see anyone come out and say I belong to this group.
It's also telling anyone who is defending the group does not say a word against Israel. They claim they are against the regime in Iran but if you dig a little they don't seem to mind Iran in ruins!
Thanks everyone again!
Asadabad: Facts shows otherwise
by Bavafa on Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:21 AM PDTThis cult past and present track record shows clearly that the "members of the regime" may not be the only target of this cult but ANY ONE that may not be obedient to them.
Their own members in Camp Ashraf are not safe if they dissent from their ideology or leadership, how any one else could be safe?
The reality is that vast majority if not all opponent of legitimization by de-listing of MEK will not shed a tear if any of the criminal member of IRI get killed or die. This cult is a dictatorial, tyrant and criminal group and just as any dictatorial/criminal group will not hesitate to kill its opponents (and they have already proven that) and that could very well be you and I a whole lot of other Iranians next.
'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory
Mehrdad
خانم چادری
Shazde Asdola MirzaSun Aug 21, 2011 10:11 AM PDT
من از همون دفعه که گفتی تو مونترال "صوم" میکنی، پسر خوبی شدم!
Read Assadabad's comment....
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:07 AM PDTMajority of Iranians back home, having lost hope for a peaceful transition from islamist fascism to democracy, would certainly agree with Assadabad's comment. I know it, Assadabd, I dare say, knows it. So does the islamist regime's Etelaat Ministry. Hence all this Jelez o velez on iranian.com over the past couple of weeks:)
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."
dear Mehrdad
by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 09:43 AM PDTYou are absolutely right when you say: Logic and facts has nothing to do with it.
I do not know what motivates MK but he is not listening. You; I and Ayatoilet may use logic until the cows come home. But it will not make any difference to MK.
He is not going to change his mind. Hence the real audience is the general IC readership. They get to decide for themselves. The biggest problem I have with MK is he talks down to people. I could live with inconsistent reasoning. But this attitude of talking down to people does not help. We are not children and not students. We are not afraid of getting a bad grade. Nor are we going to be silenced by claims of offense. So let him have his say. The important thing is what other people think.
Dear Disenchanted: Logic and facts has nothing to do with it
by Bavafa on Sun Aug 21, 2011 09:16 AM PDTWhat you or Ayatoilet1 tried to do in here to use logic and facts regarding the nature of MEK and its treasonous past with MK had been tried before and failed, many times. Facts and logic are not the governing criteria when it comes to MK, a repetitive sets of illogical arguments coupled with selective cherry picking statements used over and over again till one gets exhausted and will only have to give up. I don't believe this stubbornness is due to lack of knowledge or intelligent, after all it does not take much to really know the nature of MEK ( past and present) but the lack of sincerity in motivation is the driving factor, in my opinion. But I enjoyed your post and sense of humor in this thread regardless.
As far as MEK goes, the leadership must stand trial in a creditable and just court to answer the crimes that was committed by MEK under their leadership against Iranians during the war with Iraq and the Kurds/Shiite Iraqis.
'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory
Mehrdad