What would Prince of Persia do?

The magical Dagger of Time in the movie Prince of Persia lets you go back in time and fix bad decisions

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What would Prince of Persia do?
by Ari Siletz
01-Jun-2010
 

All the way home from the movie Prince of Persia we three cousins fantasized about what we would do if we had a Dagger of Time so that we could go back to our decision points in the past and do things differently. Some stock purchases, college majors, and divorces later we ended up in politics. How should we as a nation have acted so we wouldn’t end up in the mess we’re in?

The conclusion was that as individuals we couldn’t change anything, except in unrealistic ways like taking a lot of money out of the country when 6 Tomans could still buy a Dollar and then funding a counter offensive against the dictatorial trends. No, we would get swept up in the currents along with the rest of the nation. Our claims to having seen the future would be as unconvincing as the claims of the few intellectuals who were prophesying disaster.

But what if more influential people had the dagger? Would the Shah still have left the country, leaving Prime Minister Bakhtiar to a sinking ship, or would he have stayed to help with the bailing? He would have left anyway, was our conclusion. There was no guarantee Khomeini would not win even if the Shah had been smarter or gutsier. Cousin number two is always a wiseass and she said what if the Shah stayed and if by chance he got into trouble he could use the dagger again to go back to his original decision. So we made the rule that you could use the dagger only once and go back only as far back as your own lifetime.

OK, let’s give up on the revolution and the medievalization of our country, we decided. Let’s go back fewer years. How about if Ayatollah Montazeri had the dagger and could undo the past? Would he have pretended to go along with regime executions, waiting until Khomeini kicked the bucket? Montazeri’s protests against the executions didn’t save any lives, so why not be a better diplomat and win in the end? Saretoon ro dark nayaaram, that scenario didn’t play out well either. This was not turning out to be an easy game.

Here at IC we are all princes and princesses of Persia, using an internet Dagger of Time to question our history and the decisions that were made. We have all traveled to the future, in our minds at least, and come back to warn of the consequences if we do this or don’t do that. The result is just as action packed, humorous, and fun as the movie. The only difference is that we each travel to a different future and come back to tell a different tale. Ultimately, I believe these disagreements will lead to a happier ending than in the movie where the truth belongs to only one person.

Now if we were all as good looking as the actors in Prince of Persia, this would be a heck of site. The moral of all this is that we should let a Hollywood casting director choose our avatars on this site.

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more from Ari Siletz
 
oktaby

Ari, I was actually thinking inflection points in recent

by oktaby on

history say last few millenia, where the very thinking and worldview was changed/modified. Granted, just about every major event can technically qualify but lets focus on XL only (oh yes, even that could be a can of worms) for example the very point of view of all monotheistic religions and how they have essentially created the plunder because god gave you earth mindset.

 

Aynak, Nazi's created the world's most sophisticated weaponry, technology, medicine and just about everything else. That did not make them any more wise or human. They were idiots. One could argue that idiocy was in the ideology, in gene pool, in force of events or as specific as a moronic attack on Russia and not backing down. Bazargan, is an idiot in that sense. The fact that he was a great engineer is irrelevant. VPK's point is quite valid. His loyalty and religious conviction had preference over his country. That makes him a traitor and without roots in my book. He also showed he had no backbone. Just look at him almost fall to khomeini's feet to lick it when he was being 'appointed'. 

OKtaby


Ari Siletz

How Esther pulled it off

by Ari Siletz on

She accused Haman of treachery in front of the king during the feast. "The king rose from the feast in a wrath and went into the palace garden." It seems the king is not sure at this point who to believe. But the clever Esther knows that Haman's guilty conscience makes him amenable to assuming the king is only mad at him. So she uses this psychology to her advantage. "When the king returned from the palace garden to the banquet hall, Haman had thrown himself on the couch where Esther was reclining [begging]." The poor sod was set up. "And the king said, 'will he even assault the queen in my presence, in my own house?'" What made up the king's mind was his male ego, not any evidence that Esther presented againt Haman. 

 

It seems the Time Dagger by itself isnt' enough; the user has to be very clever in using it. So clever in fact that possessing the dagger is moot.  Queen Farah didn't need a dagger either, just more wiles.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Aynak

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

1) I was joking about Hashim since you called my Mughanna. People refer to me as VPK on IC.

2) I know people who took classes from Bazargan. He would try to prove God based on thermodynamics. The man was not going rational. He allowed religion to cloud his judgement. Harpi-Eagle showed other problems with Bazargan and the huge damage he did to Iran. 

In addition Bazargan's resigned when he should have resisted. The man was the PM. He should have confronted Khomeini not ran away. He should have stood up to the hostage takers; ordered the security services to free the hostages. But he was a follower of Khomeini. He bowed to his master and quietly turned Iran over to a demon. That is treason in my book. His responsibility was to Iran not to Islam. And not at all to Khomeini.

Do you remember when JFK ran for office in US he was asked whether his loyalty was to the Pope or the America. He was clear his was to America. Bazargan's loyalty was to the Imam or his marja taglid not to his nation. That is why he was a traitor. I did not call him that without reason. I said it and I stand by my statement. He and his ilk are an embarassment to the Iranian people.

His son is even worse than him. I suggest you watch some of his youtube videos. He spreads the most stupid propaganda against the Sassanids. I only imagine that he took after his father. A shameful family all around father to son and on.

VPK 


Harpi-Eagle

Re: Aynak ...

by Harpi-Eagle on

Aynak,

Perhaps calling Mehdi Bazargan a moron or a traitor is a little going overboard.  But you can not deny that what Bazargan and later Ali Shariati did in their naivette and susceptibility to the Tazi Cult, did our nation a great dis-service.  I don't know about all the behind the scenes events, but wouldn't be surprised to find out it was Bazargan who encouraged Dr. Mosadegh to trust and colloborate with Ayatollah Kashani which in the end turned out to be a major factor in his undoing and ultimate demise.  Bottom line is the clergy of any religion and above all the Shiate sect can not and should not be trusted.  A prime example of the diabolical nature of the Shiate clergy is the fact that Kashani sold Iran to the interests of BP for several payments of 10,000 Pounds Sterling in 1954, this is well documented in the book (All the Shah's Men). 

So Bazargan and to a bigger extent Ali Shariati and later, the Murderer (Ebrahim Yazdi), did a great dis-service by painting a rosey picture of the "Utopian" society that Isalm was supposed to bring to our country.  They are all successors to that uber-traitor Salman Farsi who sold us to the Tazi Cult 1400 years ago.

Payandeh Iran, our Ahuraie Fatherland


Esther

Two thoughts

by Esther on

First, I am not a TV watcher, but if I were, I think I would much rather watch "Oracle" than "Persian Version."  Can someone please go back and change the producers' minds? :)

Second, I must confess some bias toward Hamsade's suggestion (what can I say, I like queens of Persia :).  Actually, in answer to Ari's earlier "core question" of how to get someone to believe you and change the future to save your people, the historical Queen Esther (as a woman and as a minority, I might add) did just that.  So perhaps I would go back to that lifetime, ask her how she did it, and report back.  And then perhaps more modern-day queens of Persia (or others) could save more modern-day peoples ... .


MM

fallacy - Mullahs have >9 lives, so need more daggers / trial

by MM on

.


Ari Siletz

Changing the future, playing with fire but..

by Ari Siletz on

...you may be tempted, say, to make a very credible bomb threat on the Trade Center towers so that the buildings would be empty when the planes hit on 9-11. The long term consequences would be unpredictable but you would save a lot of lives at least for a day (and probably ruin your own).  Such scenarios would make a good TV series, however. So here's to oktaby's question. First of all, you wouldn't use the dagger until the moment you are about to die. This maximizes the amount of info you have. Then you would come back to right now (do you sense a glitch here?) and not try to change anything that has already happened, but work only to shape future events.  A TV series with storylines about your experiences in the future world would have a strong competitive edge because its the real thing (though people don't know it,and really neither do you for sure because your memories f the future feel just like a vivid dream).     This show would reach a lot of people and become a world shaping force in itself--kinda like how the da Vinci Code engaged people's imagination, except serialized and with more
"clues ". The initial financing would be very easy because "buy low, sell high" is a cinch for someone who has seen the future.    The show would be called "Oracle," and episodes would direct the imaginations and energies of the masses towards specific issues that will prove their relevance soon thereafter, boosting the show's influence in a positive feedback loop.   

aynak

Two things that is respectable Hashim, about any human

by aynak on

 

in my view:

1-If they do the best they can professionally

2-If they have ideals and can be true to them without being dogmatic.

Bazargan is a shining example in both.   Bazargan is the person that architected one of the most important water project in Iran (the city of Tehran, in Fatemi street), which  provides water for several million people today.     You can ask any engineer familiar with the challenges, scoping of the work, expansion etc.    So if he was an idiot, as an engineer I would love to be an idiot like him.

Bazargan also stepped down as soon as his principles were about to be compromised.  Power was not his aim, good governance was.  That's why he sponsored  a constituion that spelled out separation of clerics from government -- drafted by Amir Entezam--.

Again, if a fraction of people in charge in Iran, had his integrity and professionalism we would not be in the mess we are now.

I am not familiar with his son, but as for the Mehdi Bazargan, dismissing a person like him as "idiot" may stem only from anger not logic or rational reasoning.    The discussion here, revolved around having a magical dagger to take you back in time and make a difference.   Some, naively, wanted to go back and tell shah or his relatives about what is ahead.    I tried to show there was no need for such time travel.   A respected engineer tried to warn Shah, in the 60's, and Shah did not pay attention.   (i.e time travel for this purpose would have been a waste of time, based on documented facts).

I am not sure if you have heard the name Nouri-Zad.   But he is telling Khamanee today, the same type of thing that Shah was told in the late 1950's and 1960's.  (I certainly hope Khamanee would not last that long though).

Of course our leaders must lack in Intelligence to repeat the same mistake over and over again.   To make the same mistake over and over again is a sign of lack of comprehension not arrogance and that is the trade mark of most Iranian leaders.  If you are good, you can afford to be arrogant too. In that case, Mossadegh does not fit the bill by any stretch of imagination, unless you can factually prove it.    But we are all entitled to our opinion.

 

 


oktaby

Thanks Ari. In a world where changes were made

by oktaby on

already, that put Iran on a less tumultuous path; lets call it 'normal' and we had to conted with a normal dictatorship or god forbid a democracy, I could think of a lot more fun things to tinker with given the Dagger of time. From girls to soccer matches to grades and choice of careers. But cest la vie.

Now let me pose one: What would you do with the dagger, about the environment and changing the lifestyle that has us on the course we are now?

OKtaby


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Abarmard

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

there are  theories which say that if you go back you simply spawn off a new thread. There may be infinite realities:

  • One where Alexander did not win.
  • One where Sassanids did not fall.
  • One where Mossadegh won.

If you go back and "change" things you either make a new thread. Or you end up in a different reality. Who knows? Time travel is not at all understood. It is great for fantasy but for now an impossibility. In other words: don't worry about the real implications!!


Abarmard

If you could go back

by Abarmard on

no one would have the power to change the giant forces that take an event further. It is almost impossible to change events for what we could consider "better". Not to mention that even today many of our knowledge about the events are distorted. It's a harsh responsibility that should be left alone.

Look ahead, straight, proud and know that what we have done as a nation has given us a roadmap for the future. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Aynak

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Why so formal; call me Hashim! 

The problem with our leaders is not low IQ; it is high ego.

Mosaadegh; Shah; Reza Shah all had egos that were too big for them. That wrecked them. Khamenei is following the same path. Of course it will be great to see him fall. That for once will be a good thing. 

Bazargan in my opinion was a real moron and a traitor from day one. He put Islam and his convoluted khorafat above Iran. At least Shah; Mossadegh and Reza Shah were real Iranians. Bazargan was and idiot and a traitor. How dare he lecture the shah about "us". He did nothing but follow bigger men: Mossadegh and then Khomeini. Never able to stand on his own feet. Now his son is running around in Beverly Hills trashing Iran. He bad mouths our pre Islamic civilization. What a jerk.

Enough of my rambling for now.

Thank you for your support.

VPK 


Ari Siletz

summer or 72

by Ari Siletz on

Very touching blog oktaby. I sure hope no chess player gets a hold of the Dagger of Time; he'd waste it on replaying his bad games.

oktaby

Ari, I listed the events. As for how...

by oktaby on

I would use various relatively high powered relatives at the time and one or two very influential ones and start by influencing them and talking about the calamity that is coming (assuming I have lucid memories and insight-did not see PoP yet). I would go thru my dad and mom to influence them to influence the relatives; and then work the team of young (see my blog of summer of 72) rebels and revolutionaries to spread the message. In practical terms and given my age at that future past time, that's all I could do.

OKtaby


aynak

Al Mughanna (Veiled Prophet of Khorasan)

by aynak on

 

As you said:   "I don't hink Rostam meant to kill his son".     So here I thought, if I had an imaginery dagger of time, what portion of our history (real or imagined) would I be able to change?

Since I know enough about physics to know travelling back in time if possible, would allow me to travel to any point back, this would have been my choice, where my action could have made real impact.

As for Shah etc, the writing was on the wall.   If that wasn't enough I would refer the reader to Bazargan's historic speech to shah back in the 60's to the effect that "we are the last generation that would attempt to change things peacefully".

But even more recently, Khamanee.   Do you think enough people have not written to him warning about what he is doing to our people and country?   Does he need someone come from a time machine to tell him the obvious?

Our leaders (with very few exception) have/had enjoyed low IQ's as evident by them never learning from the past.   They were/are mostly idiots with illusions of grandness, which  ultimately caused their down fall.   So I doubt there is anything I could ever do, even travel back in time to set them straight.

The story of Rostam and Sohrab though is a painful one.   So many times I thought, what if someone in the Persian army had known and told Rostam.   (Apparently the king Kavous did know but did not want to let Rostam know, and so did the touranians).

The impact of this alteration in Shahnameh though can be immense :)

 


maziar 58

.........

by maziar 58 on

As I see some here few commeted in swedish,the other day few in chek,some in french,some in italian or spanish and I'm sure there are many other Idioms on this planet that Iranians were Immigrated to (thanks to exodus of arab mullahs!! ).

how about all Iranian go back to home inmass and every body start talking their newly learned language...

that sure  make all mullahs go CRAZY.       

we've Iranian in all the corners of the globe.   Maziar


hamsade ghadimi

ari

by hamsade ghadimi on

i think my initial answer resolves the conflicts that you presented: farah would not only lose a child for having gone back but stands to save the child that took her life.  she would not have been in risk of assassination as she would be protected by the shah.  she would have been able to convince him of her clairvoyance by predicting events that are only known to them (including his cancer).  in addition to her child, she would stand to win hers and her family's dignity, and finally the iranian people's dignity.  in that order of importance!


Harpi-Eagle

Re: Core Question and Criticism ...

by Harpi-Eagle on

Ari,

First regarding the core question.  Ofcourse this whole subject is for entertainment only, and fictional, but if I could really do it like in Prince of Persia, I would really study the events of the period I am travelling back to and then by predicting some of the specific events exactly as they are supposed to happen, I would gain the trust of the person in question (Mohammad Reza Shah in this case).  Once I'd have his trust, I would then propose the plan I mentioned about June 6th (15 Khordad).

Regarding the question of vanishing from one place and the imbalance that would cause in the mass/energy conservation theory, I'd like to point out that the Time Space Continume that Einstein mentioned is truly an all encompassing environ that contains the entire universe and therefore you would not really vanish completely but simply change your Time/Space coordinates.  Furthermore, many of the more modern Physicists now believe in many parallel universes.  Now if one wants to really consider the physics of going through a Warm Hole or Black Hole in order to manipulate time, I really don't think this would be possible at least not within the constraints of a material body.  In other words what I'm trying to say  is that "Going through warm holes or black holes can be hazardous to your health !". 

It is defintely a very entertaing subject to ponder though, thank you for the brain exercise.

Payandeh Iran, our Ahuraie Fatherland


Ari Siletz

Good video, some criticism.

by Ari Siletz on

Darius   I've watched the videos, and think I understand them enough to critique the weaknesses. From a physical theory point of view, for example, simply vanishing in one time and appearing in another violates many conservation laws in physics.  As you may know there is a law in physics called "conservation of mass-energy." This says that the amount of mass-energy in the universe stays constant. When the grandson's body vanishes to go back to the 19th century, he has subtracted mass (his body) from the universe in the 21st century and added it to the mass of the universe in the 19th century. So now the 19th century universe has more mass than the 21st century universe, which is in voilation of the mass-energy conservation law saying the masses must be the same. Of course you can get around this by "simultaneously" transporting an equivalent amount of mass forward in time from the 19th centruy as you transprot back (the same way a rocket in space must eject mass backwards through its nozzles if it is to move forward so that in can comply with another physical law called "conservation of momentum"). However conserving mass turns out not to be enough because there are a host of other conservation laws in physics that have to also be obeyed. For example conservation of electrical charge, angular momentum, parity, baryon number... 

 

The dagger in Prince of Persia is magic indeed, but cleverly avoids the obvious violations of physical laws by simply transporting information from the future. Even though the dagger holder does experience future events, when he comes back to the past everything is the same (all conservation laws followed) except he has a memory of the "experience" subjectively, no different than a very vivid dream.  Whether information can be transported from the future without violating physical laws is a matter for deeper discussion. 


Darius Kadivar

Ari Siletz Jaan the answers are all in the documentary ...

by Darius Kadivar on

I posted below ...

World's First Time Machine  

You should take a look. It's really well done and exposes the dilemmas you have mentioned in regard to Time Travel ...


Ari Siletz

Preventing erteja'

by Ari Siletz on

oktaby,   One player in these "time war simulations"  suggested going back far enough in his own lifetime so that by 1979 he would become an important political player himself. A simplistic way to accomplish this would be to make himself famous by, say, predicting the Kennedy assassination, or Watergate in all its details. But such a person would instantly become a target of assassination. So he has to use his historical knowledge secretly. What events would you use, and how would you use them to promote your influence in Iranian society prior to 1979? 

oktaby

Ari, I like the premise you made to travel back only the length

by oktaby on

of one's life? That makes this scenario play more manageable, including one's kid's vanishing and all (or spouse- potentially positive depending on many variable :)

I think the presumption should be that we want to pre-empt the erteja' that landed on us in 79 via corrective measures. I also think the influence should be practical and pragmatic once one has landed in the specific past. As in, I should be able to do something, know someone who can influence an event or process.

OKtaby


Anonymouse

I'd tell Clinton not 2 have sexual relations w/ that woman Ms L!

by Anonymouse on

Everything is sacred.


Ari Siletz

Harpi-Eagle, core question

by Ari Siletz on

The cousins in the article hashed out scenarios where we go to the Shah or other important historical figures and claim (truthfully) to have been to the future and back. But as stated, the important figure would have no more reason to believe us over any other advisor trying to predict the future for him. Here's the core question: How does a person who absolutely does know the truth distingusish himself/herself from others who are only guessing at the truth?

Ari Siletz

Time Dagger warning label

by Ari Siletz on

Changing the past to improve the present, also destroys a lot of what you love. Keep in mind that a tiny change in your own past could mean your children would vanish in the new improved present. How much of our "Iranian identity" would we lose if we went back too far and changed our history in fundamental ways?  

Harpi-Eagle

June 6th (15 Khordad) ...

by Harpi-Eagle on

I would go back to 15 Khrdad 1342 and tell Shah, this is a golden opportunity to rid the nation of the "Erteja'e Siah" (The Religious Conspiracy) once and for all.  I would tell him to shift his focus from the "Reds" to the "Blacks" and "Liquidate" any and all major players of that club.  But then again, if we as a nation did not have this temporary sickness, perhaps we would never recognize the true evil nature of Islam, the way we learned it in the last 31 years.

Payandeh Iran, our Ahuraie Fatherland 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Aynak

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Very interesting point! I don't think Rostam meant to kill his son. But your point is very valid. The king was indeed worthless and loyalty misplaced. We need go past rulers. Not VF; not king not religion. People rule people. The rule of man and woman. Not rule of king or God or mullah. Rules made by people; flawed but subject to change. Not rules made up by people and sold as "word of God". No more loyalty to fake a**holes who suck our blood.


Anonymous Observer

jhone lager

by Anonymous Observer on

Jag älskar Steig Larsson böcker. Synd han dog.


hamsade ghadimi

jhone lager

by hamsade ghadimi on

ett broder, skriva på engelska så att alla kan förstå. viva Sverige.