SEX

You guys are hopeless

first of all no one has denied your right to wish marrying to a virgin, it's your mentality which is the problem not your wish. It's your mentality which forces you to wish for certain physical attributes in your future partner and this mentality will certainly force you to behave in certain way too. you want a virgin because it is symbol of a girl being untouched by any man in her past but how certain can you be when your wife with no virginity after marrying you, converses and laughs with other men, shakes hand spends time or works in a place with other men without you being there? how certain and secure do you feel if only virginity was holding your partner back from having close encounter with other men previously? and finally, how certain can you be that a virgin girl has never had any close contact with another men? how do you find out?

Whenever you find your virgin and get married, I suggest you to write a book about it and share your skills with others so others can be as happy as you will be. good luck.

It is very interesting that

It is very interesting that a lot of people here keep stereotyping those who say that they want to marry a virgin! Anonymous2010 clearly stated why he does not want to marry a non-virgin and his reasons are very legitimate for himself. Yet all we see is people stereotyping him as someone who hates women, wants to lock his wife, marry 12 year olds, be violent towards her...etc!!

What amazes me is that the same people who stick these labels to those who want to marry virgins, claim to have absolutely no problem with other people's personal choices and life-styles and judging anyone based on their sexual orientation of preferences. So, according to them; you can be gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, be into open marriages, gay marriages, swinging, bondage, threesomes...etc it's your "private life" and no one has the right to judge you!!!! But God forbids if a man says that he wants to marry a virgin!!! The labels and stereotypes pour down on him; he is a wife-beating, women hating, child molesting, dogmatic, uneducated, reactionary person who has no clue about the great achievements of modernity.

But again, the same people who make all these beautiful claims suddenly feel all "gheyrati" and get angry when they are asked if their liberal opinions about virginity also applies to their own wives!

I don't know if that shows hypocrisy on their part or just the fact that their minds have been deeply conditioned to always put the Western life-style above the Iranian one without questioning it and always only criticize their own values and culture.

Reza

Please spare me the sarcasm and your condescending tone.

Most Iranian men think like me. Therefore, I can confidently speak for the majority. This is not something you can deny. It's a fact. Had most people shared YOUR extreme liberal views and values on virginity, Iranian girls (of all levels) would not have had to go through these surgeries on such a scale.

If you don't think (or pretend not to think) like the rest of us, it's probably for one of these three reasons:

1- You have already married a non-virgin, and are trying to justify your choice for your own sake. You want to make yourself believe at all price that this is not, and never was, an issue for you.

2- You lie. And deep in you, if you had the choice between two girls of equal qualities, you know you would pick the virgin one.

3- You have been so conditioned, so feminized and so trained by the most liberal factions of the Western society you live in, that you would feel guilty to claim your own values and traditions. In other words, you're one of those who's been conditioned to believe that whatever happens in the West is right, and whatever we do back home is backward and silly.

Anonymouse and Reza: Please don't duck this question and don't submerge it in all sorts of half-truths, slogans and subterfuges. Just give us a straight and honest answer:

What would be, in your standards, the acceptable number of men for your wife to have slept with before marrying you? 1?10?15?20?...etc

And if you DO have a limit, on what ground do you have a limit?

Give us an honest response without resorting to personal attacks on me.

2010

I hope you find a young female child 12-13 years of age from a village in Iran whose parents can guarantee the child's virginity and purity, and bring her out here, and live happily ever after with her.
She will be really 'aftab mahtab roosh nadideh"!
You can trian her and teach her anything and everything you want.
Wish you a wonderful life.

But do not speak for all MEN in your comments.

At the very least you do not represent me and a whloe group of men that I know.

Nice poetry Anonymous2010

You said:

"I'm pretty sure the you two are not exactly the happiest people in terms of relationship and marriage either. You have probably divorced, cheated or got cheated on."

When logic stops start the insults, again and again.  If my psycho babel prevents women (virgin or otherwise) to marry you and your kind or encourage women (again virgin or otherwise) to divorce you and your kind, then I've done a pretty good job., thank you.

Don't you worry about my happiness and my married life.  I can see from you sexist remarks that you have the right outlook on life and are therefore happy and are going to get happier. So I am happy for you.

I am a man, a feminist, support women's rights and equality.  You claim to be a man but don't even have the balls to register under a psuedo name in a lame website and stand behind your own views.

There is a Chinese proverb that says be careful what you ask for.  May you find everything that you are looking for.

Ananymouse

Great post indeed. I happen to know of a couple of people with same kind of mentality. one of them is teaching in a university in Paris right now. This guy went to Iran and got a beautiful and educated vrigin through same old traditional Iranian way of finding a wife. The girl was about 15 years younger. In Paris, this guy left the girl in locked apartment when he went to work without the girl even have a key. She was ordered by her husband to stay inside all the time and was not even allowed to go to school to learn the language!

The girl was hoping that he will change and attributed all those mistreatments to the guy's previously lonely life. To her amazement, even after having a child, the guy was getting worse every day so the arguments started and shortly after that they got seperated and divorced with a one year old child. This is typical future for people like this. and the problem is that they always blame it on the girls too.

The biggest problem with the guys who refuse to marry with excuses that the girls have been seeing other men (dokhtar mikhan keh aftab mahtab roosho nadideh) is that they are incompetent and afraid of taking responsibility. At the same time, they have no problem with themselves fooling around just because they are boys and there is no way to measure their virginity! This is the mentality that mullah are taking the free ride of in our country.

Anonymous2010

Are you from Canada? Have you met Hajiagha? Maybe the Canadian water has gotten into you?! Sucks to Canada!

Why are you asking about people's wives? What business of it is ir your's that how many people their wives have "slept" with?

When are going to learn not to bring the MAJORIY or MOST Iranians into this and claim it as a FACT?

You want to marry a virgin? Go ahead, have fun, more power to you, may you be the only one who has ever slept with her.

This is a discussion and a place where you can beat your drum of I WANT VIRGIN all you want and no one is really going to care. Of course there are Iranian men who want to marry a virgin. Case and point you yourself.

When normal men are looking for women, you are looking for virgin women. When normal men are looking for mutual respect and understanding, you want virginity asking how many men she has slept with.

In an Islamic country of Iran where Islam is read out aloud in mosques' loud speakers every day, is it hard to find virgins or not? If it isn't just marry one of them already. If it is, where CAN you find a virgin to marry?

By the way, what is your 2010 logo? Is it the year you are going to get your PhD?

40 year old virgin

What's even funnier is your fake "outrage" about what I've been saying. You are apparently sooooo open-minded. Soooo "modern" that even the thought of someone wanting to marry a virgin seems to shock you.

But let me ask you a question:

How many men would be OK for your wife to have slept with? 1? 5? 12? 50? Would you (if you're a man) marry a girl who has slept with, let's say, 15-20 men?

Where would you draw the line, seriously? And if you DO draw a line, on what ground do you do it?

And for your information, I know for FACT that most young Iranian men think like me.As for you, instead of mocking what I say and trying to be a smart-ass, just ask yourself "why so many girls resort to such expensive surgeries to restore their hymen if young men didn't really care?"

Do you seriously think that if young men were okay with the notion of their future wife NOT being a virgin, girls would still go through such headaches to fake their virginity?

See, the problem with people like you is that you think you're mainstream. You think that just because you've been outside Iran and conditioned to act, think or pretend to think a certain way, everyone else must follow suit.

But the truth is that the majority of Iranians, including young Iranian men, don't despise virginity as you do, and most of them have nothing to prove to their American neighbors.

Anonymous2010 are you

Anonymous2010 are you serious?! You know for a "fact" that "many" of YOUR friends and "others" are reluctant to get married because of this "question" of virginity?! and you say this as a "young man"?!

How "young" are you? and how many women have you asked this "question" of virginity? Are you a virgin too or are you "legally" (seegheh harfi) not a virgin?!

I wish you had said this earlier, I know many virgins and you are in luck. Write a list with your name and friends' name (how many of you are we talking about?) and I'll introduce you to these virgins who are dying to get married. Seriously. If virginity is what is stopping you, I know a 40 year old virgin who is a real one, not a fake one. I have younger ones too, no less than 18 of course. Is that a deal? I know all kinds, pretty ones, rich ones, with hour glass shape, from good family and all. All REAL virgins.

You are funny and the more serious you become, the funnier you become. So, please, please we want encore! encore!

Nazanin

"Virginity" is not a condition imposed by men. It is a condition imposed by human nature. Societies who have derogated from it, are now feeling the consequences: Break-ups, divorce, conjugal violence, teen pregnancy, single mothers, depression, insecurity, loneliness...etc.

Slogans like "Women claim you bodies" are not only abstract and meaningless, but also very absurd. You know very well that it's not the "body" that matters, but the act you commit with it. A murderer cannot stand before a judge and say, "well, I strangled that man, but you know, it's my body and I do whatever I want with it". It's YOUR BODY, but you can't fill it with alcohol before turning on your car. It is your body, but you are not allowed to mutilate yourself. etc. So saying that woman possess their bodies and can do whatever they want with it, is just one of those empty armchair theories with no practical value.

A woman possesses her body, but she also lives in a society where she's expected to conduct herself in a certain manner. Just as men are. If we accept the premises that women (or men) are free to do whatever they want "with their bodies", then what's the problem with adultery? Where should we draw the line?

It is precisely this kind of meaningless theories that extremist feminists blindly repeat that is screwing up everything.

Face the truth:

Iranian young men have stopped getting married (this is a fact backed up by credible statistics, see Sazmaan melli javaanan's website). And this is not just because of the economy. It is true even among this prosperous diaspora of ours and among rich milieus in Iran.

As a young man, I know for fact that one of the main reasons why many of my friends and others are reluctant to get married is the question of virginity. If you don't believe me, just look around you and see how many pretty, educated, successful girls you see, that are reaching their 30s but are desperate for marriage. None of them stands the chance to get married, for the simple reason that they are not virgins. This is true in Iran, and even here, where Iranians constitute small communities within which everyone pretty much knows everyone.

And fake virginity is not a deterrent. The argument that "girls will eventually resort to surgery and fake it, so stop asking for virginity" is not a valid one.

Fake virginity has only had for effect to further raise the wall of mistrust. Since boys don't know anymore if a girl is really a virgin or not, they simply don't get married. And this is the path many young men seem to have chosen.

Out of the 6 million couples eligible for marriage in Iran, only 600 to 800 thousands get married every year. A normal percentage would have been at least 40% (around 2.5 million marriages), whereas we're stuck at 10 to 12%. The epidemic of fake virginity is one of the main causes for this mistrust.

We are in a crisis. And it is deeply rooted in that new trend that some people seem to take joy in promoting. The "Free yourself", "Fuck around", "Claim you body" part is shouted out loud, but they seem to forget to mention the second part which is "then stay single for the rest of your lives or get your hymen surgically restored, or marry a divorced man 15 years older than yourself".

Virgin is what virgin does

No one is demanding women to be virgin. Those who want it will get it, one way or another. Whether a true virgin or a fake one.

The reasons behind society's -- whether it is Iran or any other country -- virtue on virginity goes back to middle ages. Long story as you know. You think it is going to get solved overnight?

It is an argument to beat men's head with it, saying men demand it. Well, what else are women listening to men these days that virginity is NOT one of them?!

Virginity=Guilt

The problem with insistence on virginity is that it is the root cause of guilty feelings about sex. Guilty feelings about sex, in turn, cause other serious problems in sexual relationships. Iranians must stop demanding virginity and some of their sexual complexes might dissolve. We are a screwed up nation in the sex department. The discussions on this piece show it, too.

Read Hafez you'll catch what 'love' is

All you said here (and will say) on two pages long (and even more) can be summarized by these two rhymes of Hafez poeme

(Openly I admit, with much joy and such glee;
Enslaved to your love, from both worlds I am free)

فا ش می‌گویم و از گفته خود دلـشادم
بـنده عشقـم و از هر دو جهان آزادم
طایر گلشن قدسم چه دهـم شرح فراق
کـه در این دامگه حادثه چون افـتادم
مـن ملک بودم و فردوس برین جایم بود
آدم آورد در این دیر خراب آبادم
سایه طوبی و دلجویی حور و لـب حوض
بـه هوای سر کوی تو برفـت از یادم
نیسـت بر لوح دلم جز الف قامت دوست
چـه کـنـم حرف دگر یاد نداد استادم
کوکـب بخـت مرا هیچ منجم نشناخت
یا رب از مادر گیتی به چـه طالـع زادم
تا شدم حلقه به گوش در میخانه عشق
هر دم آید غمی از نو بـه مـبارک بادم
می خورد خون دلم مردمک دیده سزاست
کـه چرا دل به جگرگوشـه مردم دادم
پاک کن چهره حافظ به سر زلف ز اشـک
ور نـه این سیل دمادم بـبرد بــنیادم

Women Claim Back Your Bodies

To Azad an An2010 

Your views of chastity=virtue is based on your hang ups and biases and perhaps a few extreme example you like to bring out of the hat to proove points that are not based on any scientific basis (even if they were, human behaviour is maleable and when we can see something is wrong, we can change).

To Cameron

Of course, there is no doubt that a lot of women around the world have been oppressed and have suffered in patriarchal societies and still do to this day. And there is also no doubt that humanitarian feminism has done a lot to gradually liberate millions of women from oppression, educate them (as well as men) about their rights and help them better achieve their potentials as human beings. I also know that sexuality, including the concept of virginity, has always been used as a tool of domination and control over women.

Having said that, I do not believe that every man to whom virginity is important, has an archaic mindset and an agenda to oppress and control his wife. I also don't believe that every argument promoting chastity and virginity, comes from a dogmatic and ignorant point of view. I think there are some very legitimate, intelligent and valid arguments supporting the idea of virginity before marriage, both at a personal and philosophical level.

Anonymous2010 has already pointed out some of the personal reasons a man might not want to marry a virgin, which I think are very valid and legitimate. It wouldn't be fair to expect a man to suppress all these hurtful feelings and for example; live with the pressure (or the thought) of always being compared to the previous lovers of his wife in terms of sexual performance. I think that's a very legitimate personal reason to not want to marry a non-virgin. And idealized slogans such as "the only thing that really matters is how much she love YOU" or "women do not compare" or that "a man shares much more with his wife than just a hot bed"..etc are just irrelevant to a man who simply does not want to go through these hurtful feelings and pressures.

As for the guy you said divorced his wife after learning that she did have sexual relations before marriage or has had it "a la Greek" as you put it; I totally understand him and I would absolutely have done the same thing. Lying about this issue is no different than cheating, and it only shows the woman's lack of respect and consideration for the guy's choices and beliefs.

Unfortunately lying about sex and refusing to assume responsibility for their own actions, has reached epidemic proportions among Iranian girls of all , and NOT just in traditional families where the girl might risk her life by admitting the truth.

A few months ago I was reading a Persian article about the hymen restoration surgeries in Iran, I think it should still be available on the net. And there was an interview with a girl who said that she has had 3 abortions after getting pregnant by her ex-boyfriend of 10 years. Then she had went on and married another guy and presented herself as a virgin to him (by going through the surgery). The ex-boyfriend also got married and the two couples are now family friends!! Meaning that the poor husband has no clue that he is drinking, having dinner, going to trips and playing takhteh with a guy who impregnated his wife 3 times! Now, how do you think the husband should react if he ever learns the truth?

I am sorry but when I hear these stories and see the mess in today's "modern" societies and I compare it to the more traditional and conservative times, my choice becomes clear. I don't care if the values and morals of the previous generations were defined by "religion" or whatever else, but it is clear to me that following a well defined morality and code of conduct is far healthier than desconstructing the existing ones and falling into this moral vacuum and nihilistic mess. I am now 30 years old and I will not rick getting married in this poisonous atmosphere of random sex and dishonesty.

Re: Anannymous2010

Your generalizations are based on your own misconceptions and mindset towards this particular subject which was correctly characterised by Yasaman as jealousy. Please speak for yourself and don't misrepresent your biased and unfounded claims with no real scientific backing as solid facts. you are only justifying yourself and nothing else. maybe it's time to change and help to end the possible suffering of your own future daughters or sisters or daughters of others.

After reading the comments

on this thread, staying single seems to be the best option. No dating either. Just continuing to focus on  academic studies, family and career.

Who really needs the headache? Not I!

Solh va Doosti

Natalia

Yassaman

You took my arguments out of context and didn't pay attention to my careful choice of words.

My conclusion was that my guess would be that "men who marry divorced woman are probably less vulnerable to that "thought"." I said "probably, less" vulnerable and I tried to explain why. I didn't say they don't think of it or that the thought of their wives being with another man would be somehow justified in their minds just because the sex was legitimate.

If fact, I'm pretty certain that even men who marry divorced woman have a problem with that image. Even they have to fight that thought. Because it's somehow programmed in their genes. It's not jealousy in the conventional sense. It's much deeper than that. I guess you'd have to be a man to understand it.

And I'm not a jealous person as you seem to think. I just don't fight my natural emotions. If something deep inside me makes me react a certain way, I don't try to resist it just to appear "cool" or fit the crowd. I can assure you that those men who pretend NOT to care about their wife's past sexual relations, fake it. They try to appease you and themselves, but deep down, they do think of it and it bothers them. In fact, this is why many of them think they are entitled to cheat on their wife only to compensate that thought. They think they are entitled to have sex outside marriage just to get back at their wife's history. I have encountered many people who think this way.

Other men may look cool at first, but they have sudden outbursts of anger and violence, especially after sex or when something somehow revives that thought. Something seems to trigger a rage in them without you really understanding what it is. Well, that something is often that subconscious thought that you are conveniently denying or attributing to my jealousy.

You can choose to deny that such feelings exist, but as a normal man, I've only tried to lay it out for you. I'm honestly sharing a piece of information with you that many men might, out of respect, courtesy or simply hypocrisy, would deny you.

Anonymous2010

I have no choice but to quote you so as to discuss a little further:

--"But I know that deep down, just the mere idea of picturing your wife with her ex makes you go wild with rage. And it's not because you think sex is dirty! IT'S ONLY NATURAL"

****Y: "Wild with rage ...IT'S ONLY NATURAL"???
Only natural...I truly think not! And I'm basing this on the males I know, family and friends.

--"...they HATE the idea that their wives have had sex with other men before them. Most of them would tell you that the mere "knowledge" that someone else has stuck it up their wives is constantly there to bother them."

****Y: Men hate the idea of their wives having had sex with other men in general, or only prior to losing their "virginity"???

So image of sex for a virgin would lead to BLOOD BOILING and RAGE and THUNDER IN THE BRAIN, but image of sex post virginity-loss is a-ok since it is a legitimate legal matter?!?
--at this point you don't see other men(ex, exes) "Riding" any longer... ? Think about it.
Double standards sound familiar?
I guess it must be, since the quote below is also yours:
--"1- There is an element of legitimacy in a second marriage that is absent in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship."

****Y:So if "Riding" is legitimate then there is no problem?!
No brain exploding "sexual images" in the male brain anymore?

You also go on to say:

--"Basically, in your second marriage, you're probably much more pragmatic: What you want is someone to save you from loneliness or help you out with your kids or help you face life's struggles..."

****Y: Your above quote may hold water for some, but obviously not for all, including myself. I had no children, I was 28 and and wanted a mate/partner in life!

Just as a sign off I do believe you have a very "VIVID"imagination(!) -at least in ref to women with other men, and more so a befahmi nafahmi(!!) problem with Jealousy!
But I do agree to DISAGREE with you, and I'll let it go at that...

Enjoy life!

Even "Barbarians" have more sense than these "Romans" ...

Salaam!

...a very witty remark is reported to have been made by the wife of Argentocoxus, a Caledonian, to Julia Augusta. When the empress was jesting with her, after the treaty, about the free intercourse of her sex with men in Britain, she replied:

"We fulfill the demands of nature in a much better way than do you Roman [French] women;

for we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest.[1]"

Such was the retort of the British woman.
– Cassius Dio

/& Salaam

[1]: //www.gala.fr/var/gal/storage/images/media/im...

Reply to Azad99

Dear Azad (for the lack of your real name).

Ok .. we agree on the ideal situation. Sure…but the issue is and was not the ideal.

The issue is – again – the arbitrary way men and women are being treated, not only on our society but in many.

Now … how do we go about that?

Our societies all over the world are based on fundamentally erroneous and false values, norms and ideas. Somewhere along the line, humanity went wrong … very wrong. The result of this wrong path has created problems that seem next to impossible to rectify. We can see that in both west and east.

Do I wish to see a change … you bet.

But, humanity lacks leadership. We have no defined destination as a race and we have no idea what we are doing here and what we should be doing. A few philosophers, sociologists, theologises and God knows who else, who seem to have been granted the honour of being called an expert, all have different ideas and yet no one can with clarity pin point the path nor help. They are all stuck in permanent mental masturbation, and for centuries been chasing their own tail.

Until we do not have a clear common goal and clear understanding of what our lives, talents, energies and efforts would be focused on – and no … shikam va zire shikam deosn’t count – then we will be left in the spiritual quagmire that we have been pushed or fallen into. I am now talking about the humanity as a whole. And as accurately as you and Anonymouse2010 pointed out, since we as individuals share the same instincts fundamentals and values, and are of the very same essence, then we all suffer of the same calamities in this world. And the flip side of it is that a common solution is very plausible.

So there goes your relativity … which I do not believe in at all.

So … then what to do? Well to begin with, we have to identify and admit and accept that THIS IS NOT WHAT IT SHOULD BE LIKE. Now … that said, then change is needed. But do try to turn the table BEFORE we have found an alternative or after? Well … that can be discussed till are out of breath … but one thing is sure. There is no improvement in people’s lives … no where in the world.

Shiny cities … yes, more technology, more wealth (today the report came that over 1.1 million are now officially millionaires in the world with a combined wealth of 4.5 trillion!) … but happiness, justice, harmony, compassion, empathy, love, purity … NO … we as a race are receding … and that fast and in an exponential manner!

We are all sedated – mentally, intellectually and yes … spiritually - and we all engaged and busy in so much gaggaguya and of course the busy fighting for survival. So there goes your Maslow’s theory outta the window, as at least this group of people affording to spare time to write and discuss all have sufficient to live a comfortable life (to various degrees), and yet we are all still stuck in the competitive play ground of the Kindergarten we all once attended for the quest of more material and more glamour. Which per se is just another way to be loved and be able to love – but since our societies and norms invented in them and false values are so fucked up, then we are all on a VERY wrong path.

However, there are certain things that are SO obvious and wrong, and not as fluid and discreet – hard to recognize. One of them being the oppression of ONE HALF OF THE HUMANITY – namely women.

The issue is not ‘To be with Pardeh or not to be’. The issue is … hey … half of us are suffering and treated with cruelty. And since without a balance of both feminine and masculine force, there can no be peace, and we will be struggling with ourselves and shoot ourselves in the foot, well then perhaps we need to change that with the highest priority.

The notion of virginity is just ONE way to oppress a large group of individuals. Women and men both victims of this concept. As Anonymous-something, pointed out, it is not easy for a large number of men to accept that their wives, mothers of their children and Girl friends been so called TOUCHED before. So they are in a way a victim as well, since by such idiotic and false and horrific outlook, they suffer too. I know of people who after marring found out that their wives were not virgins – or had taken pleasure a la Greek. They DIVORCED! Children became ‘Avare’, much heartache and the list can go on and on. This is the way a man who is a victim of these false notions of purity dressed in the concept of virginity is victimized. He lost his home, a ‘Sofreye pahn karde’, the chance of seeing his children grow up … and on and on and on … you get the picture.

Women are victimized even worse. You think in a country where the social support – financially – is non existent for a single mother (and you know that this is the case in the majority of the countries), it is easy to be rejected by a man who, if not the sole breadwinner, but at least contributes largely to a financial base preventing outright homelessness and starvation? You think a divorced woman is not pushed into prostitution? And by prostitution I do not mean to be on the red-light district. No … when a woman “hangs out” with another man and her motivation is primarily gifts and money, that IS prostitution. How would you feel to date a woman and then after a while find out that what impressed her and attracted to you was your car, house and ‘Dast o del baazi’ and deep inside, had she had a choice she perhaps had chosen a different man to kiss and be kissed by?

You do know that the female circumcision is solely for curbing female’s sexual appetite so that she can remain virgin … right? This my friend, is happening not only in Africa but also in Saudi Arabia and in EUROPE!

We men are doing ourselves disfavour by buying into this sick idea of virginity – PARTICULARLY we also practice double standard of morality.

Now as far as feminism goes. Buddy, you have not met militant feminists yet … ha ha … I mean there are women out there who would not hesitate to use force against a man. There are numerous women who truly believe that MEN are unnecessary, that men are weak, stupid and they thank the ‘God of Science’ for providing them a way to become pregnant without a man.

Recently, in England, there was a law passed stating that MEN are not necessary to form a family.

THIS IS INSANE!!!

No child can turn mentally and emotionally healthy, without both masculine and feminine force – both role models. I know that loads of feminists are going to find an enemy in me now. But they would be mistaken.

The whole idea of feminism is to promote gender equality and justice and respect. If there are individuals out there who are bitter and full of complex and gone to an extreme, that does NOT represent the feminist movement. Just as there are men, who think of themselves as the RULER and look upon their wives and children as their properties and refer to women as ‘Kam Aghl’.

My point??? … well yes … let’s change the society and its norms. Yes … let’s work towards that utopian place, our paradise … but in the mean time let us also, at least, oppose obvious oppression and injustice.

Just as we are opposing a war waged by Bush, just as we oppose a child being molested, or a dog being beaten … just as we get upset when a large telephone bill is handed to us by mistake and we contest it … well … then let us also contest and oppose for our better halves.

The injustice posed upon our women (all over the world for the past God knows how long) has now resulted in such friction that there are actually morons writing books such as ‘Men are from March and Women from Venus’. Trying to further create a rift between men and women.

A man and a woman are two inseparable parts of the same entity.

I know that all homosexuals are now jumping their guns, saying that love does not know gender … but fundamentally I bed to differ. That is not to say that I oppose homosexual’s rights and civil liberties, and for sure no one can find a homophobia in me.

So .. how can we then be happy and find peace and become whole, if we keep mistreating half of our being – these goes for both chauvinists and feminists. How can you walk and work if you tie your right arm to your right leg and beat it with your left hand all the time?

So the issue of virginity - beside everything else that I said about, mental, emotional and physical health and eroticism and all other views that you have so far read in my previous postings - is also about finding back to ourselves as a whole entity.

I am no idealist, but one must try to understand the very root of each phenomenon and then try to address and/or live with it accordingly.

And don’t forget .. people form the society and not vice versa … and so people…individuals are the ones who need and MUST change the society if the society has gone berserk. And that starts with ourselves … on an individual basis….you …me, … he and she.

Kind regards and have a good one,
Cameron

I like what Cameron had to say...

Although his analysis about love, sex and relationship is correct, I don't think it sufficiently addressed the depth of the issue at hand. Ultimately, this is not about sex, or being virgin. This is about Power, and control of others. This is about seeing the world in black and white, simplification of life in order to cope with it. Fear of loss of power. This is the nature of Islam, and Islamist. Look at the words, and vocabulary used: "Possession", "Jealousy".

What they are saying in essence is that men's right to feel secure supercedes women's freedom to choose or to act. This is about chaining other human beings mentally.

Yassaman

I think a man's perception of his wife's virginity at a second marriage is a bit different than his perception of his wife's virginity at a first marriage, and this for few reasons:

1- There is an element of legitimacy in a marriage that is absent in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. So a woman having lost her virginity as a result of a marriage is often perceived differently than a girl having lost her virginity as a result of a relationship with a random boy, with no official recognition.

2- Second marriages are often conducted in a very different atmosphere than first marriages. First of all, second marriages happen between people of higher age bracket. Therefore expectations are different, both from the partner and from life in general. What you would expect from a 35 year old divorced woman at a mature age is often very different from what you expect from a 21 year old girl at the pique of your youth.

The reason why you got married a second time is often very different from the motive that drove you into your first marriage too.

Basically, in your second marriage, you're probably much more pragmatic: What you want is someone to save you from loneliness or help you out with your kids or help you face life's struggles...Whereas in a first marriage, what you probably seek is a "dream" life. Therefore, your criteria for choosing a wife is much more different at your second marriage.

So basically, I think that men who marry divorced woman are probably less vulnerable to that "thought", as you say.

Whether you choose to believe me or not, men are indeed bothered by the thought of their wife with another man. It is there to bother you and to remind you that someone else was just as intimate with your wife as you are. It takes away the "exclusivity" you wish you had with that person. Maybe you don't necessary seek that sense of exclusivity at a second marriage, I don't know, but at a first marriage, people often do.

I don't mean to judge anyone. And I would never perceive a woman negatively because of her past sexual experience. I would just not want to marry her. Don't I have that right? I want to save myself from having to live the rest of my life with a thought I know will bother me. Don't I have that right without being branded a "backward" person?

The truth is that most men are like that...But they won't just tell you.....Some can deal with it more easily....Others honestly can't....And some only pretend they're okay with it, whereas deep inside, they despise it.

"Just the image of your wife

"Just the image of your wife riding someone else makes your blood boil. Don't you agree? Don't you agree that deep down, even YOU Camron, would rather have married a girl with no past experience..."
*****
Now people, I have been married twice and am 39 years old, second time around for 11 happy years. My husband is Iranian.
I know for certain that my husband does not imagine me RIDING my ex.... every time we have sex or every time he looks at me!
My divorce was basically amicable, so there is not the hate factor for my ex, in me or my husband.
Now are you telling me I am wrong, and all these men married to women on their 2nd marriages in the world are living with "that thought" night and day??! or just in Iran?- let's just set aside ex boyfriends and man friends for now.

Is that what you think??

Re: Anonymous1326

Thank you for your interesting questions! Many of your objections are valid (especially about "honor" killing), but an explanation is in order.
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Firstly: A man's right to marry additional wives isn't absolute. Traditional Shia marriage demands a marriage contract. This contract supersedes all other rights. A couple can choose to include a stipulation in their marriage contract wherein the man pledges not to marry additional wives (or take siqehs). The man thus forgoes this option as a condition of marriage. Problem solved. This practice is becoming increasingly common in today's Iran, even among the very religious.
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As for siqeh, I'd hardly opt for someone who did this (for all the reasons I mentioned about valuing virginity) . But I recognize that siqeh is a choice, and individuals have different standards. Traditional Shi'ism is flexible on pre-marital sex (as long as it's done according to the rules) and so the burden is on individuals to decide how they want to live their lives. I would expect my potential partner to be forthcoming about prior relationships; that's only fair.
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Humans are complex, and picking a spouse should not rest on a single criterion. Virginity will play a big part in the choice; but so will other things like education, personality, family (and perhaps a willingness to humor my Star Trek obsession!).
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I wrote my initial post primarily to put forth a dignified understanding of virginity, to show that it was not incongruous with a rich and vibrant life. Happiness does not demand our indulging every whim, and there is much to be gained in rising to the challenge of self control.

There is notbhing wrong with

There is notbhing wrong with wanting to save yourself for someone you see fit worthy of being with you for the rest of your life; however, one should have a choice and being a non-virgin should not reduce a human being into a piece of junk; That is immoral and unethical to view a human being only as a sex object; I don't think God looks at non-virgins as dirty or worthy of death.

Not being a Virgin does not equal promiscuity. By the same tokin, being a virgin does not guarantee that you will be a great wife or a mother or a decent human being. Virginity does not mean Purity of heart and soul. It just means that the hymn is intact, that's all; like someone who has never cut their hair off or has never has a c-section.

I know plenty of virgins who are sluttier than many prostitutes in a red light district.

When the entire worth of a human being is determined by a piece of tissue then that human being will not develop to her full potential as a human being or as a mother. She will be forever handicapped by anxiety about her worthiness as a human being. That is why many women live with their abusive/womanizing/cheating husbands in miseable wretched situation forever (being beaten and abused emotionally, verbally, economically, etc)and raise dysfuntional children in Iran. This is in fact, ungodly and immoral to have no way out because you're deemed as worthless and damaged in your society. This kind of society cannot possibly grow spiritually, socially, and economically.

Iranian Muslim,

You have a very sincere explanation. Some people are fantasizing so much about sexual encounter that completely forget there are so many other important aspects and dimensions in a relationship.
Being informed regarding sexual encounter/sex education is probably a necessity in today’s society. We also shouldn’t dismiss the existing problems which this nation (US) is facing when it comes to sexual activity.

Higher numbers of non-marital sex partners are linked in turn to a wide variety of negative life outcomes including:
Increased rates of infection with sexually transmitted diseases
Increased rates of out-of-wedlock pregnancy and birth
Increased single parenthood
Decreased marital stability
Increased abortion
and Increased maternal and child poverty.

To Cameron

Thank you for your patient reply. I think the main point of disagreement between us is not on our observation that much nor on our ideals, but on the solutions and process of adaptation that we each advocate.

Both of us agree that the ideal relationship is one where two people get it right the first time and explore sexuality, eroticism and everything else together. We also both agree that the reality in the field is a lot different than that.

The difference between you and I however, is that you advocate that we adapt ourselves, our ideals, our values and life-styles to the "reality" of the society and try to make the best of it. And my view is that it is the "reality" of the society that needs to be reformed and altered to adapt itself to our ideals, or that least move towards that aim. Of course, while having in mind that these is no such a think as a Utopian state.

Of course, you will ask; but who defines these values and ideals? is it religion? the patriarchal society? the ancient norms and myths? human nature? And my answer is that maybe all of them have something to do with it. But I believe that there are fundamental realities and inner feelings that are themselves behind all these social constructs, ideologies..etc The fact that you and I both have the same archetypal picture of a perfect relationship, perhaps despite our ideological differences, and the fact that, as Anonymous2010 said, we and people of various cultures, all share the same inherent feelings towards certain issues, is itself a proof of the existence of these fundamental realities.

And about feminism I have nothing against it, as long as it defends women's rights and promotes equality. But I have a problem with it when it turns radical and becomes itself an oppressing force imposing its own norms on other and suppressing alternative views. I have a problem with it when it claims that there is no such thing as "normal" sexuality, that "morals" is a meaningless and 100% relative concept, that there are no moral restrictions whatsoever on how people can "express" and "explore" their sexuality as long as there is "consent", denying any natural role for the sexes (including the natural role of motherhood) and calling women to "liberate" themselves from these "constructed gender roles"...etc and YET, despite all these promotion of absolute relativism and freedom, condemning in the harshest terms the choice of men who want to marry virgins and urge men to suppress any such feelings that they might have.

Iranian muslim

When some crazed men or even women make such a big fuss over virginity so that it becomes justification for honor killing of a girl because she had a boyfriend without being married then it is wrong.

There is nothing wrong in waiting to have sex until you get married but sometimes, because of that mentality, some girls get into a wrong marriage to have sex and it does not take to long for that wrong marriage to break appart while the lives of some children get deeply affected by that. That is wrong.

I don't know if you are a man or a woman but since you are a muslim and you are dreaming about sharing your body with a single person and expect the same from your partner, I have to remind you of something here. If you are a woman what would you say if your husband brings in not only one but at least three more wives to share his body as a muslim according to sunnah of prophet Mohammad? Do you know that is absolute right of a muslim man? and what do you say about the current trend in Islamic Iran in which mullahs recommend and encourage temporary marriage for students and young people who can not afford to marry? If you are a man, would you marry a girl who has been involved in temporary marriage previously which has been all according to sharia? If no why? Do you think that girl had committed a sin or is it just because you think someone has taken away part of your share? What if the girl was involved in a temporary marriage and repaired the virginity but never told you? would you prefer that?

What is so wrong with virginity?

My goal in a relationship is love, the kind of love you plant in a stable marriage, that you allow to blossom over the decades until two people grow into one another. It happens through respect, tolerance, honesty and dignity. Sex is part of it, but so is food, so is fun, so is work and the occasional fight...Why the obsession with the sexual dimension? What is so wrong with waiting until I am married and then having plenty of enjoyable sex with my partner?
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Call me controlling and selfish, but I want to marry a person for whom I am all the person knows sexually, and vise verse. I want to live my life knowing there is one person in the world who has shared my body. I for my partner and my partner for me and no one else. Can you imagine, to share such a strong and sacred bond with another human being? I can imagine it would bring us closer together, that there are many out there who long to live in such a way.
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Why the insistence on experimentation and exploration? Sex is beautiful, and I hardly fuss about about it. I know it's there, waiting in a marriage not too far off in the distant future. I don't need to think about it, don't need to enthrall my mind with its pursuit. I don't need to think of my every encounter with a member of the opposite sex as a potential sexual encounter. Instead, I will free my mind, think about strawberries in winter, flowers, spaceships, philosophy and conversation.
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When the time comes, I'll have my sex. For now, I'll enjoy other things, like good friends, good books, and the sunrises that come after morning prayers. Maybe underneath all those rich and happy experiences, I'm just deluded and repressed. Then again maybe all of us are, each in our own special ways. A great deal of the "liberal" psychobabel is painfully self-defeating. Oh yes, and I believe I inherited these values from (*gasp*) mom and dad... oooohhh, aaahh, Societal Norms boogi boogi booo =P