German Jews oppose trip to Iran
International Herald Tribune
23-Feb-2009 (8 comments)

BERLIN: The Central Council of Jews in Germany has criticized a meeting over the weekend by the former chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, who has repeatedly denied the existence of the Holocaust. "Mr. Schröder is greatly damaging the reputation of Germany and the German government," Stephan Kramer, general secretary of the Jewish group, said in an interview with the Neue Presse, a newspaper in Hannover.

recommended by Darius Kadivar


rosie is roxy is roshan

Ifyou have never read the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

please do not trouble yourself. It is a completely spurious, baseless and hate-based mythology, a wild conspiracy theory long discredited in Europe. These types of things are only being resucitated in the Middle East due to unfortunate recent historic events. Jews have never "controlled the world". In reality, it was due to their marginal status in Europe, being unable to own or work the land as almost all the population except the nobility did, that the Jews were basically forced into being the pre-Capitalist sector. Charging interest was not allowed in Christianity so the Jews became money lenders, from whence bankers. As such they were part of the engine that created Capitalism in the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance but they were by no means alone. There were the great banking families of the city-states of Italy (the Medicis, the Esits..) and the merchants of the German Hanseatic League.

In reality once the mechanism of Capitalism was set up the Jews have been far from owning the concentration of the wealth. There have been many more poor than rich Jews, witness the Jews of the Russian shtetl. Also the life of the Jews in Europe has been one of danger and wandering, always subject to murderous persecutions and expulsions, usually engineered by the state to rally support among the peasanty to consolidate power in times of economic distress (Russia) or nationalist consolidation (Spain). This has been the fate of the European Jews.

The worst case was the Nazi genocide. Germany was completley shated by Europe in the Treaty of Versaiilles after World War I, paper money was almost literally toilet paper, and amidst the econonmic duress the Nazis emerged with an extreme form of Nationalism which scapegoated the Jews, who were well-assimilated into the society, as a flagpole to rally around.

Europe was decimated after the Second World War and entirely dependent upon the US's Marshall Plan. At the same tme the state of Israel was formed due to the massive influx of Holocaust survivors. You can see clearly that these two events, the ascent of US domination and the creatiion of Israel, were thoroughly due to Europe imploding on and almost destroying itself, with no help and through no fault of its own.

In the post-war era, the United States achieved military and economic hegemony in the West and Israel became its imperialist watchdog in te Middle East. But this function of Israel was a product of the Holocaust, Europe's own self-immolation and US interests. The US media and banking industries are controlled by many Jews in collaboration with many more, more powerful and wealthy Wasps. Again, Jews became powerful in finance due to their historical marginalization, media too--due to their inability to own land and their literacy at a time when Europe was illiterate, Jews often became translators, scribes, etc. And due to their constant struggle forf survival they became smart.

Hollywood was formed by mostly Jews and is still to some degree stillThe  dominated by Jews but those Jews were poor Eastern European immigrants who lived by their smarts, and their children and grandchidren. The great newspaper mogul of the 20th ceentury, Hearst, was not Jewish.

The collusion of US and Israeli realpoliti in the post-war era stems from the Jews' historical misery and Europe's historical violence and idiocy. Israel was born way after the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were written. The Protocols is a mythology on a par with that of the Knights Templar and being controlled by aliens from Planet Planet.

The Jews of Europe were a target precisely BECAUSE they did not have the largest concentration of wealth, the successful Jews in Germany were mostly middle class, thus more visible to the general public. Their persecution was manipulated by the really wealthy sector which was not Jewish in collusion with the state to consolidate power.

As far as laws being passed against Arabs and Muslims, take a historical look at the laws they have passed on their own people and the way they have treated each other. What did the war in Iraq and Afghanistan have to do with Jews? If anyting they were oil wars and the oil industry is not controlled at all by Jews.Why shouldn't Germany "still" pay for those crimes? Holocaust survivors are still alive today, middle-aged people are their children. Germany is a very wealthy country (thanks to the Marshall Plan), they can well afford to pay and accept it as their responsibilty. They complain about it far less than you do and others who use this as anti-Semitic propaganda. Germany did not pass their laws against Holocaust "denial" to satisfy the USA, they did it to protect themselves against the rise of Fascism which turned out to be no picnic for them either. There is no law against Holocaust denial in the United States.

I am Jewish. What do you think my grand plan is? Please tell me, I would love to know. I could use a clearer purpose in my life at fifty.

There are plenty of other things to read. Please do not bother to read the Protocols.


Jewish grand plan!

by Iranian realist (not verified) on

I am not anti Semite and I thinks during the Shah Iran was one of the best places in the middle east for Jewish to live and if we did not have a religious government in Iran,Israel could have been our best partner since Arab counties dislike Iran and they would never be our partners.I have not read the book"elders of Zion" but it talks about Jewish controlling the world .It is done right now through finance and politics.we see that in USA where a lot of laws are passed by Jewish lobbies against Muslim and Arab countries.Wars are started by USA in behalf of Israel and US soldiers are losing their live to satisfy Israeli needs.Even Germans are still paying for Hitler's crimes and it is not even enough for them.To satisfy USA, Europeans pass laws where it is against the law to deny Holocost.

rosie is roxy is roshan

Blah, yes and no

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

Yes you are correct, the figures were exaggerated and also, the term "Holocaust denier" is itself propaganda. Virtually no one denies the existence of the Holocaust but rather the numbers and methods involved. This brings up the issue of the "Holocaust Industry" (Norman Finkelstein's landmark book with which I am sure you are familiar). I visited one of the "deniers'"websites once a few years ago, don't remember which, and was surprised to see that the conversations on the threads were as nuanced as any political or historical issue with moderates saying only slight revisions were needed to those believing in very drastic ones.

It is most unfortunate that the figures were overestimated because the truth was bound to come out and regardless of the figures the depredations were vast. The exaggeratins have served to undermine the enormity of the tragedy and has created such things as people saying "blah" when the issue is discussed. Now here is an example of the types of issues the "deniers" discuss: some argue that the Final Solution was not widespread, in fact only contained to Auschwitz, and the proof of the pudding is that how could there have been a final solution when the Germans allowed all those emaciated people you see in the documentation of the liberation of the camps to get that way? Obviously they were just letting them die of typhus. How generous. (Or working them to death...) In point of fact, the Final Solution came very late in the day and the Nazis did not have TIME to implement it, surely they would've or why the hell was it called the "Final" Solution. The document signed by Hitler authorizing it exists. Blah.

Go to Germany and count the number of Jews. Many of them are not even German, they are Russian, and they went there because of the aid the German government offers. The great German poet and patriot Heinrich Heine who predicted the "German thunder' (deustch Donner) would make a great nation, that is how integral the Jews were to Germany. Count them. Where are they now? Count the Jews of Thessaloniky too.

Yes, there have been haradline Zionist propaganda campaigns exaggerating the figures but there has also been a propaganda campaign against the propaganda. Yes there has been a "Holocaust  Industry' but likewise there has been a "'Holocaust Industry'" industry and no matter how you slice it or dice it the attempted extermination of the European Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, retarded and more along with the killing of how many Slavs and others was an abomination, these people should be spoken of and remembered along with the Jews.

However the specific attempted genocide of the Jews of Europe was very nearly successufl and remains to this day the largest in numbers of any group of people. Blah.

This kind of blahing is now so fashionable and those who do it are merely succumbing to a propaganda anti-propaganda campaign, which makes them (you) no different from the Zionist propagandist. Propaganda is propaganda.

We must all strive to find a balanced undertanding of historical and current events. We must all seek the truth.

And we must all respect the dead.

rosie is roxy is roshan

Darius, these were the first two feeds on Schroeder's

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

visit, probably you saw them but what is relevant here is the conversation I had on the threads with Ostaad. First feed (mine):


Genarally I defer to her on the "realpolik" issues because she is far more knowledgeable than I, but in this case I begged to differ with her interpretation of the Iran Holocaust issue and mine and held my ground. However she was right that I overlooked perhaps the most important political issue in the Schroeder visit and promptly supplied this feed:

I thoroughly concur with you on the Israel and grassroots change in Iran.

Darius Kadivar

blah Oh Yeah ? Do the Nuremburg Trials Ring a Bell ?

by Darius Kadivar on

What were the Nuremburg Trials About then ?

Nuremberg: Tyranny On Trial :: [Part 1 of 5]

Do you know how many of those Criminals were to recieve Capital Punishment ? Only 11 !

Which proves the impartiality of the Justice delivered by a neutral, unbiased and serious tribunal despite the fact that more than 6 Million Innocents killed and not all were even jews !

The Major Culprits that is Hitler and his Henchmen like Goebbels and Himmler Commited Suicide Like Cowards.

Not to say the Responsability of the Nazis in plundging the World into a Second World War and 50 Million dead ...

What the Fuck does Ahmadinejad know about WWII ? ... Or Even Most Iranians for that matter to be authorities on the subject ?

Do You know the Number of Iranian Military Casualties  during WWII ? 200 !


See List of Casualties per country during WWII:

You are either too Young to remember the serious and unique nature of the Holocaust in which case your doubts are excusable


An Ignorant Fool who has had no family member or grandparents to convey the dreadful reality of Nazi Germany to question the numbers. That is already the begining of an attempt to Denying the Holocaust. Iranian National TV is RAMPANT with Neo Nazi Revisionistic Theories well known in Europe which we know the roots and arguments of these ideological diatribes which today serve as so called "samples of Proof" to the likes of Ahmadinejad and his Arab Brotherhood and sisterhood. 

You People are no different than the French Far Right Jean Marie Le Pen who calls Gaza a Concentration Camp or the Austrian Neo Nazi Revisionists. And Your Solution is to Wipe out another Country as a sign of Justice ? Well then lets follow your logic to the end. Then We should also wipe out Germany ( unified only 20 years ago) and that would lead to denying All existing frontiers just like the Nazis did in the Balkans which led to WWII.

Iran and all these Hamas Tearjerkers simply want a New World Order shaped on their own values and references with total disregard of the consenquences. It is not about democracy or Human Rights, its about Your Corrupt Highjacking of Iranian Patriotism to other ends

And your Blind Support for the Hamas cause against the interests of the PLO and FATAH which you have undermined.

Debating with You Guys is Like Debating with a Wall of Ignorance ...





Auschwitz revised their numbers!!!

by blah (not verified) on

No one has denied the Holocaust! They only question the size and magnitude of it.

FYI last year auschwitz quietly (at least here) officially reduced the death estimate by 3 million!!! The plaque at the entrance reads the new number which is 3 MILLION less. Yet, there has not been an official recount of the death estimates for the Holocaust!

Anyone who suggests that is called a Holocaust denier.

Darius Kadivar

Your RIght Rosie

by Darius Kadivar on

Yes you are right but at the same time I read that Shroeder criticized the Holocaust denials openly in his speach which made Ahmadinejad uncomfortable. And their meeting was at best said to have been lukewarm. I also heard like you that he met Khatami so it is the "Divide and Rule" diplomatic approach which can help isolate Ahmadinejad.

Also the Germans have been traveling to Iran back and Fro since the revolution unlike most other Europeans including during the Iran Iraq War so its nothing that unusual when they do it officially.

Any way Che Sera Sera, it does not change my point of view on the fact that:

I was, am and will be for Regime Change Through Civil Dissobediance!

And Netanyahu better not be Trigger Happy for he will jeapordize the chances of Iranians to overthrow the regime or reform it at worst.



rosie is roxy is roshan

No, they are not actually overdoing it, because

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

you have to remember that Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany and it was not only the Jewish group but some members of Parliament who opposed the trip and in polls 20% of the German populace. I am sure they knew it would be futile, but they had to give the symbolic gesture since obviously so much of Ahmadinejad's public hype has been about Holocaust denial as it plays into his Israel line. I am sure you have seen some of the cartoons in his Holocaust Cartoon Contest, makes the blood run cold. . Actually I followed the whole thing and all the reports were very piecce meal but there is a new curious detail in this one, Merkel's spokesperson encouraged Schroeder to cancel the trip on Friday when he arrived Thursday??!!! Weird..Typo? This article aslo does not report on Schroeder's meeting with Khatami and gives few details about the one with Larani who stated categorically that Iran will not budge on the nuclear issue. In the meantime Schroeder enccouraged IRI's announcement  to head a nucler consortium, so I guess it is fine by him. Apparently Mahmood threw a hissy fiit about Schroeder's Holocaust tatements and almost cancelled the meeting but was pressured to have it. Many interesting details, it was a busy visit.