The Lotus

Niloufar

Shah did not loose power because of clergy but because he did not trust people and was a dictator. Clergy took advantage of that.

There is a big difference.

Pahlavi's fall was his own fault. If he had allowed people such as Mossadeghs and Bakhtiar likes run the government, most likely we still would have had Monarchy.

Niloufar Jan

I say "the only evil is denied evil".  I strongly believe as long as people are aware of and able to express their feelings, the chances of "terrible consequences" are minimized.

P.S. I hope you do not waste your precious time on Jaleho.  She provokes people into posting comments on her blog to ge attention.    

on secularism and emotions

David, of course you are right about secularism in general, but let's not forget that since the Safavid period, the clergy have been very close to the centre of political power in iran. and the pahlavis' efforts were not fully successful in keeping them out. we may be closer to that goal right now...

mina jan, thanks for that :) but i hope i am not sounding too romantic here. point is that revolutions turn into tsunamis, and if the death chants become overwhelming, they are likely to unleash terrible consequences. they cannot be taken too lightly.

not that i am trying to blame the victims. far from it. what is happening to the demonstrators at the hand of basiji thugs and others is unforgivable. ahmadineajd and khamenei are fully responsible. but the leadership that emerges from the rising movement now must be wary of the consequences of their language and message. as must we.

rosie, that's a great idea! :)

Niloufar Jan

You seem to be an absolute sweetheart. And you have a valid point. But anger is a normal response to what is taking place in Iran.  It is crucial for People to be able to express their feelings, the way they want, as long as it does not compromise the saftey of others.

Try...

marg bar marg.

Get it out there.

Spin it,

It' should do just fine.

Niloufar

I kind of thought you may have misphrased it but that is how it reads. As for the argument about people being religious, I really do not think there is or has been a contradiction historically between periods of secularism and peoples religion nor they seemed to have problem with it.

The problem has usually been the Mullahs and the Islamists who always tried to take advantage of people's religious beliefs for their own power but from the constitutional revolution to Pahlavi eras the general public seemed to be OK with secular governments as long as their religious beliefs were not openly disrespected.

In a secular system all religions including those of majority are respected yet kept out of government.

As for the calls of death to ..... , that is an inherited call for an end to someone's reign and does not always and necessarily mean killing the person and coming from a culture of death/life we have no common substitute phrase for it.

But you are right, it is what we do the day after that determines what direction the future takes and when and if the system falls if we again resort to killing, that would become the foundation for more in future. However justice can take different forms but not death.

As for today in the midst of self defense from injury and death then emotions rise and are understandable. It seems like those in Iran have been showing much restraint and yet standing up to the tyranny and violence. Self defense is their right today.

Shir

i totally understand what you mean. my answer would be to look back at the last revolution and to point out that the mistakes of the komitehs, the revolutionary courts and their summary executions must be avoided. of course justice will have to be served, but at some point there must be reconciliation and forgiveness or the cycle will never end.

FF

what would make them different from the regime then? and pls chill. we are just talking.

Our Sincere Condolences to Mr. Khamanie

Please accept our humble and sincere condolences on the sudden and untimely death of Political Islam. The sudden expiration has left Orphans its love-childs, Homas, and Hezbulah. Again may you find peace in life without your dear Political Islam.

Sincerely
IranZamin

David, Fred

Actually my reference to majority/minority was poorly stated. what i really meant was that i am not sure that secularism is supported by a majority because iranians are predominantly religious. but that is just my impression from a distance.

peace

Why not death to

God you are shamleess.  Oppression of a sizable MINORITY?!

Are you kidding me?!  60% of Iranians inside in Iran are against the filthy Islamic regime, 20% are poeple who would sell their own mother for money and 20% of them are Islamic fascists who have ruled the 60% MAJORITY by deadly force; same way Islam was forced on us 1400+ years ago; deadly force.

The 20% who swing to any side depending on who pays them off are the crowd which is bussed to pro regime rallies.

As for chanting death to the dictator, the oppressed Iranian youth have every right to chant whatever the hell they want.  After 30 years of abuse, you, me and everyone else needs to shut their mouths.

No one on here said anything about death to JalehO.  Many posters and I asked the legitimate question:"why doesn't she live in Iran and why is she not there now".

As far as I am concerned, not only they can chant death to whomever they want, they can deficate on the dictator if that whats make them feel vindicated.

May they young or Iran stay safe and protected.

Freedom is not Free!

Freedom is not Free!

Nilufar, I agree with what you are trying to say. I also see NEDA and other brave young Iranians who asked for peace but received bullets! Do you have any idea how to reconcile peace and bullets? Estebdad va Azadi?

be ghole Asieh

به امید روزی که به جای مرگ به زندگی فکر کنیم.

آسیه امینی

But as for your agreement with the regime that the regime (now presented by Khamenei/Ahmadinejad) represent the majority, I fully disagree. In fact your view undermines the people and their movement today.

Made up "majority"

The part of your self described “rant” where you say:

“what we have in iran is the tyranny of the majority against a sizable minority that is sick and tired of political islam, confrontation and abrasiveness.” 

Is not only wholly made up to fit your already known wacked out world view, it has no demonstrable basis in reality.

 As to your “rant’ about not wishing death on even the dictator, you could not be more spot on. Thanks to the cutthroat Islamists Iran has had more than its share of blood and if pictures are to be believed the unarmed freedom fighters at times when they get hold of an Islamist cutthroat shield him from harm.

I whole heartedly agree

I admit that I am filled with anger and want revenge but if we are to be any thing different from what we are trying to get rid of, we need to have the courage. I admire your courage for speaking and confronting it.

Mehrdad