HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAN

You hate "religion" but you also have no answer

Well, that's very mature of you guys. You hate all religions, without even bothering to define what you mean by religion or differentiating between religions and your answer is something like "I only believe in myself." which is absolutely meaningless of course. because it can be immediately asked, well, who are you? And you have no answer, as you said. It is better that you materialists simply say I am afraid of thinking about such subject - I'd rather hide my head in the sand because it bothers me to think that I don't know the answer. You just go around and discourage people but you yourselves have no answer.

Before and After

"Our world has since the 1844 has gone through an exponential change as a result of the appearance of a new Revelation from God.

The world before the 1840s had remained pretty much the same for hundreds of years in terms of people's lives and conditions."

Just like plastic surgery, "before" was getting old and ugly, "new" is supposed to be young and pretty! Of course you mess around with it so much that you end up with a Michael Jackson nose!

By the way my quote beats your quote anyday because I have an honorary child who gives me all the quotes I need!

Marjan, Please Quote a relevant passage...

Marjan,

Please Quote One relevant passage from any one of "Franklin, Leibniz, Spinoza, Payne, Schiller, JS Mill, Confucius, Lao Tse etc etc. even Khayyam .."

pertaining to a future world economy and security and the need for Global unity and governance. 

None of the Philosophers of the 18th and the early 19th century professed to be anything but; .their research and contribution became the basis of human education in the field of social sciences and humanity' social and economic existence. But as we know today. that is not enough, as we have a spiritual dimension to us all that feeds off inspiration and nourishment, just as the tree needs the Sun.

Without any of the traditional dogma, or ritual, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah on the other hand lays the foundation for the regeneration of humanity; a Spiritual Revolution in the life of humanity. 

His message is essentially Spiritual in nature and not based on any kind of acquired knowledge  at a school, university or empirical study, since Baha'u'llah had no formal schooling as a nobleman and spent spent most of his life in prison and exile.

Our world has since the 1844 has gone through an exponential change as a result of the appearance of a new Revelation from God. 

The world before the 1840s had remained pretty much the same for hundreds of years in terms of people's lives and conditions. 

“The world’s equilibrium,” He explains, “hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this Most Great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System, the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” 

Faryarm 

marjan e Zahed...

Dear Mam,you say:
1-It reads more like passages from Nostradamus and really messy "logic", which is really irritating !!
2-You are now inviting ridicule.....

I don't understand it,in the middle of a serious discussion you talk about Nostradumus & then accuse Faryar of "inviting ridicule" ??
I believe if you look at the mirror you see the one who is.... !.

Please be fair,that's all.

عیب ِ رندان مکن ای زاهد ِ پاکیزه سرشت!
که گناه ِ دگران بر تو نخواهند نوشت!
من اگر نیکم، اگر بد، تو برو خود را باش،
هر کسی آن دِرُوَد عاقبت ِ کار، که کشت!

Ramin Jaan

Sepass for information.

best wishes

Ebi aka Haaji

Mehdi

You can't force an answer when there isn't one.  I'm reacting as if the question was asked in reverse to me.  Why DO I have faith or religion.  I don't have a ready little response to that any more than Marge does for why she doesn't believe in religion.  I HATE anyone who tries to push religion on me or tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't believe in.  Her attitude is exactly like my husbands.  He believe in himself, period.  Do I think he's wrong... well, sure.  But the last think I'm going to do is try to force feed him MY take on it.

Plus, I think it's far less a matter of religion than it is the evil that has been done on behalf of religion.  And no one can argue with that. 

A history of ridicule...

A history of ridicule...

has led us to being where we are as a nation and culture. 

Without going on a tangent, and in keeping with the topic; Followers of all religions ,all Prophets and visionaries have  been ridiculed.

Case in Point:

When Baha'u'llah sent His first letter to Kings and leaders of the world , one was to France's  Napoleon III, claiming to have a Message from God: I hate to paraphrase here is the link and excerpt.

//reference.bahai.org/en/t/je/BNE/bne-182.htm...

In the year 1869 Bahá’u’lláh wrote to Napoleon III, rebuking him for his lust of war and for the contempt with which he had treated a former letter from Bahá’u’lláh. The Epistle contains the following stern warning:

“For what thou has done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou has wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou has plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to held this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. Needless to say, Napoleon, who was then at the zenith of his power, paid no heed to this warning. In the following year he went to war with Prussia, firmly convinced that his troops could easily gain Berlin; but the tragedy foretold by Bahá’u’lláh overwhelmed him. He was defeated at Saarbruck, at Weisenburg, at Metz, and finally in the crushing catastrophe at Sedan. He was then carried prisoner to Prussia, and came to a miserable end in England two years later. 

Bahá’u’lláh later gave an equally solemn warning to the conquerors of Napoleon, which also fell on deaf ears and received a terrible fulfillment. In the Book of Aqdas, which was begun in Adrianople, and finished in the early years of Bahá’u’lláh’s imprisonment in ‘Akká, He addressed the Emperor of Germany as follows:—

 O King of Berlin! … Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III) and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect. … O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.—Kitáb-i-Aqdas. 

Germany and World War I  

During the period of German successes in the Great War of 1914–1918, and especially during the last great German offensive in the spring of 1918,

this well-known prophecy was extensively quoted by the opponents of the Bahá’í Faith in Persia, in order to discredit (RIDICULE) Bahá’u’lláh; 

but when the forward sweep of the victorious Germans was suddenly transformed into crushing, overwhelming disaster, the efforts of these enemies of the Bahá’í Cause recoiled on themselves, and the notoriety which they had given to the prophecy became a powerful means of enhancing the reputation of Bahá’u’lláh. 

see also

 Now with great respect, there are those who are either not interested, oblivious to the urgency of the times or so full of hate and contempt,so blinded by prejudice  that they can not tolerate the manner in which Bahais present their case in history and teachings, with precise references to facts and history. 

Must one apologize for such bold expression, on a subject that no one seems to have an intelligent answer for? 

As to those whose nerves are shattered by Bahai expression and reasoning; who in absence of any knowledge or opinion, by using anonymous offensive names, not to mention slander and attempts at smearing or character assassination, all because this blog and others by Bahai’s makes their blood boil. 

In Iran they react by setting fire to peoples homes, destroying and desecrating cemeteries, imprison and bother little kids at school.

Here in the west, they show their face as demonstrated by offensive and empty anonymous posts.

Well; the intelligent readership is used to such “fly-bys” 

 Of course, My fellow Bahais in Iran have become used to these malicious tactics and a lot worse. The obvious malice and contempt reveals more by itself about these people  than I choose to expose.

Sincerely 

Faryarm 

Weak invite ridicule

"Ridicule a sign of weakness" Ahmadinejad agrees! He too has a PhD and well versed in global issues and has written extensively about the future! He even writes personal letters to world leaders.

Ridicule a sign of weakness

Marjan
A fan of Black Adder myself..
I found your answer lacking .. As I find no relevance
With the concise question asked..
Ofcourse poets and seers for centuries have written about the future
But not to this degree of urgency..and call for action
Surely you are capable of a more constructive dialogue

Regards
FARYARm

Faryarm

You are now inviting ridicule. Maybe no one bothered again, after Franklin, Leibniz, Spinoza, Payne, Schiller, JS Mill, Confucius, Lao Tse etc etc. even Khayyam and many others centuries beforehand,. except for Lord Black Adder with Baldrick:

//uk.youtube.com/watch?v=328Q79GoR7g

"Who in the Nineteenth

"Who in the Nineteenth Century spoke to our current Global issues, as precisely and clearly as Baha'u'llah?"

Well Baha'u'llah of course! Who else?!

PS, why am I reminded of unemployed middle aged men (in cloth) chasing, preaching and lying to desparate single or divorced women?! Who (picture) reminds you of this feeling?

Marjaan...Your'e not paying attention..

"Prophetic"? As opposed to? Surely , you can see that you don't have to be a clairvoyant to predict the same or very similar?

Marjan,

Who in the Nineteenth Century spoke to our current Global issues, as precisely and clearly as Baha'u'llah? and further revealed new principles and institutions that will lead mankind to peace and prosperity.

Racism

Prejudice

War

Economic Injustice 

Equality of Men and women 

Science and Religion..

 //reference.bahai.org/en/t/bic/PRH/prh-3.html

I invite you to read this for a more productive discussion...if you still have time :) 

best

fayrar 

PS

are you in the UK? 

Hello again, Ramin

Yes, it is silly to claim certainties in medicine.

Recently, I've become interested in what is meant by "health". It seems to fluctuate in interpretations according to views of social/economic presumptions of "functioning", with very little or no pathological diagnosis.

"I agree that religious dogma can be very off putting, but I think any
form of dogma is irritating. In fact many personal belief systems that
are usually based on little knowledge or limited study and have never
faced wide spread scrutiny, tend to be the most irritating."

Glad we agree.;) And I do appreciate the sentiment of unity. Afterall it's pretty stupid to fight and kill over ..... (have you heard the news that the UN Secretary General has declared Israel a country of apartheid?)

"the other important point that always seems to be overlooked, is that
most people have formed a view about religion in general, based on
their experience with the main stream faiths around them, say Islam in
Iran or Christianity in UK.
It is like looking at books of medicine from 17th century and judging
all the current medical sciences. surely you agree that it would be an
unfair comparison.
"

It may seem unfair in its "teachings", but the fundamentals do seem to be the same: eg unity of souls and spirits, a disgust for homosexuals (I am not one, but I just can't understand why such a group should be so heavily discriminated against), an assumption of a non-entity outside time and space etc. and an overriding presumption of knowledge of ultimate "truth(s)".

What about billions of Chinese who have superstitions of their own?

"Same goes with the prophecies of Baha'u'llah which you took an objection to.
Baha'u'llah wrote letters to many kings and rulers of the world about
1867, inviting them to stop their arms build up and instead aim for
collective security,( very sensible ) and warned them that failure to
do so will have very grave consequeneces, both for them individually,
their countries and for the whole world. needless to say that they
totally ignored it, and we are suffering the results."

That doesn't make Bha'ullah a prophet of the "divine", howevver contextually advance, even though I may agree ....

I was wondering recently why Alvin Toffler's Future Shock or Voltaire's Candide and Herbert Marcuse ' One dimensional Man, were such best sellers, and everyone just carried on....

Yes, I am familiar with some of Bahai's main propositions and did have a look at your suggested site. I just don't understand how this helps in any way (especially as it does impose and presume so much).

"you see, Baha'is have been shouting for over a century, for unity of
mankind, offering a new model for humanity, and we should not,
especially the educated and privileged, simply dismiss it."

I doubt that. I think that again, the doctrines presume a common interest.

"as far as who pays taxes and who does not, it is hardly an issue. yes
it may be a nuance,(I say tax them all), but I hope we are discussing
more profound issues here. "

Here I do have to disagree. It IS an issue. Same with religious institutions being exempt by law from anti-discrimination laws.

This may interest you. There are many talks on this website. I find them generally exciting and enlightening and quite polite and not prejudiced.

//www.thesciencenetwork.org

On a further note, you may have noticed my surname. My maiden name is Zahed-Khorassani. A tick for fluttering around. :)

I enjoy disccusing with you, because I can learn.....My views and opinions are never written in stone....

Marjan

To Faryarm

Has not increased strife divided and afflicted the human race in the
last century? with Two World Wars and hundred s of regional wars over
land and resources.; and God forbid a Third One ,over oil in the
melting ice caps of the North Pole...

Do you not think that the current international order (disorder) is
not able to deal with Global Issues, that the current
inward system of sovereign states is obsolete and unable to tackle
issues such as hunger, disease,war, terror, global warming etc; hence
the statement:

"prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective"

Has not "this prophetic judgement has been amply confirmed by the common experience of humanity"?"

"Prophetic"? As opposed to? Surely , you can see that you don't have to be a clairvoyant to predict the same or very similar?

"There is very little as vague as vagueness itself"

As for my time. I get easily distracted and really do have a lot of work to do and unlike many, I only have this life to get it all together. ;)

But I adore discussion I can learn from. 

Dear Ebi

first of all I like to point out that I find your blogs and comments in response to many blogs, fair and open minded and often very witty.

But in response to your comment, Progressive Revelation is the term often used by Baha'is to explain the oneness, and progressive nature of religion.

where most people look at a religion as whole and see particular beliefs and rituals, which appear to be very different from other religions, Baha'is see religions as different chapters in the same book. each chapter is different to the other in many ways but they are telling the same story. the theme is the same.

Another analogy used is that of different grades of schooling. subjects of Grade 1 may be very different from say Grade 5, high school and university, but they are all connected. In fact you can not go to high school until you finish primary school.

So what we ( as humanity ) learn in lower grades, help us to mature spiritually for more difficult lessons. It does not mean that one religion is better than other, but always, one is more relevant than others!

The other important issue is that Baha'is divide religious teachings to two parts, one is to do with spiritual advancement of individuals ( things like belief in a Creator, life after death, fasting and praying ). This is almost identical in all world religions and is essentially unchanged.

The second part is "relative" , and that is the social teachings of religion. These law and regulations are always changing, and that is what make one religion more relevant than the other. Laws dealing woman's rights, slavery, holy war , food and cleanliness are some examples of this second aspect of religion. You can easily see how disastrous it can be when people try to squeeze some very old fashion regulations into the present time.

That is why Baha'is have no trouble accepting the truth of previous world religions, as they can separate the dogma and out-dated laws, from the spiritual and life giving forces of religion.

once you go to high school, you don't end up hating your primary school teacher, you fondly remember them and thank them for lessons that allowed you to learn more!

with kindest regards
Ramin

Faryam Jan

Thank you for your generous comment.

I always enjoy reading your blogs, including the latest one on Raddiyeh.

regards
ramin

Ramin Jaan / Faryar Jaan

Please explain more in detail:

Ramin jaan Says:

"one is that religious truth is to some extend "relative".
some essential basics, such as existence of God and life after death are considered constant and common in all religions ( although explained differently in each), but the rest of teachings are relative, and change according to maturity of humanity."

Ebi aka Haaji

Ramin Khan, Thank you..

Ramin Khan, Thank you..

for your eloquent response in elucidation of my comments...

I hope the unity of word and purpose is a further demonstration of the spirit and the goodwill that abounds; one that is destined to fill the world.

warmly

Faryarm 

Hi Marjan

Although science does not claim certainty, there many who are certain that it now provide us with what we need to know or it is able to do so in the future.

What I was trying to illustrate with the example of "hot baths", was that the science that we so proudly cling to, may and in fact most likely to be proven to be very wrong in a not too distant future.

I agree that religious dogma can be very off putting, but I think any form of dogma is irritating. In fact many personal belief systems that are usually based on little knowledge or limited study and have never faced wide spread scrutiny, tend to be the most irritating.

the other important point that always seems to be overlooked, is that most people have formed a view about religion in general, based on their experience with the main stream faiths around them, say Islam in Iran or Christianity in UK.
It is like looking at books of medicine from 17th century and judging all the current medical sciences. surely you agree that it would be an unfair comparison.

I am risking being preachy here, but I think you should know a couple of things about the Baha'i faith.
Baha'u'llah, in my opinion introduced a couple of revolutionary ideas to religion.
one is that religious truth is to some extend "relative".
some essential basics, such as existence of God and life after death are considered constant and common in all religions ( although explained differently in each), but the rest of teachings are relative, and change according to maturity of humanity.
Secondly there are not many different religions but one single "evolving" religion of God.

i.e. the same way that science progresses and we keep up with it, religion also progresses and we should keep up with it.

Same goes with the prophecies of Baha'u'llah which you took an objection to.
Baha'u'llah wrote letters to many kings and rulers of the world about 1867, inviting them to stop their arms build up and instead aim for collective security,( very sensible ) and warned them that failure to do so will have very grave consequeneces, both for them individually, their countries and for the whole world. needless to say that they totally ignored it, and we are suffering the results.

so may be you could do some brief research on this and then read Faryar's blog in that light.

//www.bahaullah.org/adrianople/bahaullah-writ...

you see, Baha'is have been shouting for over a century, for unity of mankind, offering a new model for humanity, and we should not, especially the educated and privileged, simply dismiss it.

as far as who pays taxes and who does not, it is hardly an issue. yes it may be a nuance,(I say tax them all), but I hope we are discussing more profound issues here.

regards
Ramin

To Marjan.

Marjan you said: 

"Faryar's blog has a style of sermon and no real explanation. It reads more like passages from Nostradamus and really messy "logic", which is really irritating."

Please quote Nostradamus in relation and in comparison to:

“The winds of despair”, Bahá’u’lláh wrote, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.” This prophetic judgement has been amply confirmed by the common experience of humanity. Flaws in the prevailing order are conspicuous in the inability of sovereign states organized as United Nations to exorcize the spectre of war, the threatened collapse of the international economic order, the spread of anarchy and terrorism, and the intense suffering which these and other afflictions are causing to increasing millions.” 

in what you call "sermon" and PLEASE explain the similarities, not to mention the "messy logic".

Has not increased strife divided and afflicted the human race in the last century? with Two World Wars and hundred s of regional wars over land and resources.; and God forbid a Third One ,over oil in the melting ice caps of the North Pole...

Do you not think that the current international order (disorder) is not able to deal with Global Issues, that the current inward system of sovereign  states is obsolete and unable to tackle issues such as hunger, disease,war, terror, global warming etc; hence the statement:

"prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective"

Has not  "this prophetic judgement has been amply confirmed by the common experience of humanity"?

Where in Nostradamus' Quatrains ( which are at best open to a variety of different interpretations)

do you find such precise references ? 

Does Nostradamus have any solutions to the challenges facing humanity?

..and please point out what you mean by "messy" logic, which I am afraid " might apply to your shallow knowledge of the Bahai teachings.

The references provided in what you  call "sermon" were there to provide the source and proper context. 

Please refer to them if you have "time"..for "real explanation"

faryarm 

Response to Anon I 's empty comparisons..

Dear Anon.. I , Irani etc etc..

Kindly read at least one  page...or two sentences about history, on the teachings and aims of the Bahai Faith, before empty comparisons between Jehova's witnesses, Sceintology and the Bahais.

I assure you, if you are a well meaning and fair minded person, you will admit to your Pre Judgement.

Bahai Faith is neither a reformation or redifintion of another Religion, nor is it an intellectually concocted recipe by a university educated Phd (Dr.) or Philosopher.

It is a new chapter in the spiritual experience of mankind  with the sole purpose to unite mankind. 

A to your Rainn Wilson comparison with Tom Cruise and Celebrity Driven Scientology; Rainn Wilson was born into an American Bahai family, but drifted later, however , he later rediscovered The Bahai Faith after working as a poor actor doing odd jobs in new york city, in what he called a very private and essential spiritual journey in finding meaning and purpose to his existence. He is neither a celebrity recruit, a religious leader or authority and whatever he does or says is as a private person; as in the Bahai Faith there is no professionally paid clergy or single person as authority.   

Hopefully you will avail yourself of this knowledge before any more contributions to this blog or any other in the future..

Faryarm 

Bijan A M , Thank You

Bijan

Thanks for your considerate response... 

Mehdi

You ad hominems are time-wasting and certainly don't interest me.

You didn't ask what I meant by "choice and influence".

I suggest once more and for the last time that you look things up.

Look up "Determinism" Look up "ethics".

AS for the cells. I'm not going to get into a discussion about "free will".

I love being "DEEPLY SUPERFICIAL". Thank you for the recognition and consequent evidently unintended compliment.

As for the computer test. LOOOOOOOOOL Now I'm supposed to beat the Turing Test. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

(Try John Searle's "Chinese Room argument" for a start. It has loopholes, but it's a start.)

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not omniscient. LOL

Thanks for the giggle.

I think I've given you enough of my time.

Marjan Zahed Kidersley

You use big words with no meaning. "nothing superficial about influence and choice" and yet you flatly refuse to tell us what these words mean? "ethics and critical thinking" and yet you refuse to define what ethics means and what is thinking? "biological factors?" What does that mean? Does it mean you don't exist but your cells make you into something? Would you explain? You see your "explanations" have NOTHING in them. You are just playing with words that you then never define. Yes, if you want to be that superficial, you can then completely ignore religion and what it is trying to do.

"subjective value judgments" - any definition?

"sentient beings with inanimate objects" would you explain the difference? Is a very advanced robot of the year 2500 sentient or an object? How can you tell the difference?

"Atheism" by definition

cannot be a religion. Please, all look up the word "religion".

By the way, I'm not an atheist. I don't like this Mr and Mrs Theo(s) at all.

They have a habit of imitating Coca Cola and appearing in the most remote locations.

Dear Mr. Faryam

I have tremendous amount of respect for your manners and your belief in your faith.  You asked what do I think?  I think this is an extremely difficult debate to engage in as it prods into the most inner being of any human. I post at the risk of exposing my vulnerabilities. First of all I don’t see any value in trying to search for the origin of existence. Now that the universe exists, the question becomes how would it continue to exist?. My pea-sized brain only considers planet earth as the universe when it comes to the matters of continued existence. I believe that human race is the custodian of this planet and only they can protect it. But, for human race to succeed, there has to be a code, a map, a guide,….. that is universally (earthly) accepted and followed. 

I am spiritual and was born to a Jewish family but don’t believe in organized religion, being Islam, Judaism, Baha’ism, Christianity,….etc. I also think that athieism has turned into a form of organized religion.  IMHO a religion is the belief in some of the codes and guides mentioned above. An organized religion is a system to instill morality in its followers. When you look into each of these religions many of the moral codes are virtually the same, the difference is how to instill those codes. The easiest approach would be the belief in a supreme entity whose will cannot be questioned and whatever s/he says should be followed without question. I don’t say this to deny the need for the universal codes of morality but how different religions prevent universality of such codes.  You may ask: how would you then attain universality? And, my humble opinion is through “Democracy”. You respect every individual’s system of belief and consider it a personal and sacred matter. You prevent organized religion from interfering with the government’s affairs which are developed to create the peaceful environment needed for continued existence of human and the planet. Once democracy becomes universal, we have achieved universality in accepted and followed codes of morality required for existence.    Every generation in history has had many visionaries and philosophers who have addressed the issue of existence and pointed to the codes and guides that needed to be followed. Some of those visionaries developed enough followers to be called “prophet”. Some would be called cult leaders. Who knows, Obama may be called a prophet by some coming generation….(and I didn’t vote for him). Many visionaries have postulated about what is to come based on their assessment of the events around them and what those might lead to. Many of those assessments have come true and some have not. We tend to emphasize those that have come true. Every one of us have had (at some point in our lives) instances where we could swear we sensed something is about to happen and it happened as we sensed it. I don’t know if there is already a scientific explanation for that, if not, I am certain at some point in the future we will find that scientific description. I already feel drained of mental energy spitting out this babble. I hope we engage more in tangible matters that would not require thinking about big bang theory or the concept of infinity, or  the “Chicken / Egg” puzzle,.. etc…  Regards, Bijan        

Hello Ramin

Thank you for your response.

Yes, that's another one of Khayyam's that is actually one of my favourites.

He played the agnostic game though on edge.

I think you are right, that there are certain groups who claim to know it all with certainty and do seem fanatic.

Firstly, though I think I should mention that science doesn't claim certainty. Science deals with probabilities. So, naturally it leaves room for questioning and development.

It is religious dogma and other closed belief systems eg marxism too, which claim certainties of truths and have an answer for everything.

I watched an interview lately about the vociferous objections to religions of late. Rather aptly the person mentioned that until only recently, in Britain there were no public discussions about such matters.

It was considered as private and giggly as sex. No one really bothered to talk about it. What has happened in recent years is that several factors have changed e.g. mass immigration of Muslim populations and 9/11 and 7/7 and the Iraq /Afghanistan wars.

I don't object to religion as such . "you can believe in a stone if you wish, but don't throw it at me".

What people tend to object to is the privileges that religious institutions demand, overriding the rest of society. Classic example is that one can't go into a bank with a crash helmet on, but you can waft in in a burqah. This sort of thing is based on lies. Eg the burqah is not a religious item of clothing, but a cultural one. Etc etc etc

Or the demand for Sharia law in relation to polygamy. I don't care at all who marries whom, what I do care about and what gets up my pixie nosy is that everyone else isn't allowed to do so.

Or churches being tax exempt.

Imagine if a heavy duty Marxist just plonked himself into your home because he doesn't believe in property? ;)

Eudemonia is not my guiding light. I am interested in it at the moment as they are doing studies in neurology.

"
what is important, is to look at the consequences of these beliefs for ourselves and the society.
"

I agree.Those are also the fundamentals in Utilitarianism and many other "philosophies".

Faryar's blog has a style of sermon and no real explanation. It reads more like passages from Nostradamus and really messy "logic", which is really irritating.

Thank you for this discussion with you

Marjan

Mehdi

You are reading spooky things into my posts.

There is nothing superficial about influence and choice and I wasn't contradicting myself; you need to read the rest of the sentence. I must have written something like "even though the choices we make are pre/determined". The influence and choices are based on ethics and critical thinking as well as biological factors, - as I tried to explain to you - and not wanting to confuse you very much more, those are in dialogue with the human organism itself as well as within its environment with un/appropriate response and the other word of the same origin 'responsibility'.

I NEVER said ANYTHING about 'subjective reality'. There is no such thing.

I mentioned "subjective value judgments" (morality, taste, views etc..)

You are mixing up sentient beings with inanimate objects. What does a brick have to do with all this?

I also NEVER wrote that I hate religion. I find it ridiculous, at times amusing, but mostly tedious and irritating. What I do loathe is lies.

Existential questions aren't solely the realm of the supernatural.

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers.

If you are going to respond to me and wish a reply from me, please reread my first post to you and this one and look things up beforehand, otherwise we will be wasting each other's time , typing at cross purposes.

(Your silly projection of an ad hominem attack didn't go unnoticed.)

Marjan Zahed Kidersley

I have a hard time following what you are saying but it seems that you didn't really read my question. The point I was trying to make is that when you dismiss ALL religions as bad then you have to tell us what you put in its place. And neither you nor Crush have been telling me anything. You two keep saying some superficial thing like "every human has influence and choice" and then later you say everything is predetermined. You are contradicting yourself in your own comment.

You don't really say it probably because you know well that it would sound ridicilous but you "kind of" say that you are an object no different than a brick. But them you turn around and say that there is such a thing as "subjective reality." Are yoo saying bricks and pieces of our excrement floating in the toilet also have "subjective reality?" Are you saying there is no difference between you and me and what we see twirling in that toilet bowl as we flush? But if we are not, then how are we different?

You may hate religions all you want but you are in no way able to escape this question and similar ones. No matter how many anti-depressant or sleeping pills you take, you will never be able stop the nagging of this voice down withing your heart: "Who am I?" "What am I doing here?" "What is the purpose of life?" "How do I know what is right or wrong?" You just can't.

Religions may be wrong, they may be false, and they may be corrupt. But they all at least attempted to answer these questions. Whether they succeeded or not, we still CANNOT forget the original reason why they came to existence. And Science has not even begun to answer these.

Mrs. Marjan Zahed Kidersley

Asrar e azal ra nah tu dani o na man,
vin hal-e moa'ma na tu dani o na man.. Khayyam

I am a Baha'i but I have a lot of time and respect for atheists. In fact at the moment I am reading the latest issue of the skeptics Magazine.
What worries me though is the absolute certainty ( dare I say fanaticism ) that atheist hold their "beliefs".

Their absolute faith in science and its answers, is, well for lack of better word, religious. But should we be so certain?
until middle of 18th century, Medical scientist believed that disease enters the body through skin pores, so hot baths were considered very unhealthy exercise. for this reason, I understand that one the English kings only bathed three times in his life!

yes, I agree that science is the best tool that we have to understand this natural world, but is the natural world all that is?

I would like to put it to you that as Khayyam says, we do not know. All of us live according to some philosophy and belief system. ( you mentioned two, Khayyam's and Eudemonia as your guiding lights ).
what is important, is to look at the consequences of these beliefs for ourselves and the society.

what Faryar has put to us in this blog is, Baha'i understanding of this critical period of human existence and the challanges that we face, and how Baha'is think we should deal with them.

I look forward to more of your contributions.

Ramin