Esfand Aashena

Mehrban jaan

Notice how I use jaan for you but showing you know what to VPK :-)  One of the problems all these countries have is the lack of education and understanding.

You can't expect an adult person with 3rd grade education have the same level of understanding as someone with diploma, someone with a Bachelors, Masters, or PhD.  Although in my experience the PhDs are worse than 3rd graders but let's not get off subject!

So when the population as a whole has this low level of education and been brought up in a poor country with poor resources and all, they tend to believe more in a divine being that will some day make their days better.

This is when the religion comes in and in a more strict way than before.  Now unlike some person yapping along I won't say that these people "deserve" the Sharia law because they're not educated.  All people deserve better lives.  Less educated people deserve much better lives because educated people at least have achieved something that less fortunate people have not. 

Everything is sacred

Tabarzin: "attempting to impose a Shari'a state upon Libya"

Nonsense!

The final victory over Gadaffi came about due to massive worker uprising in Tripoli. Nothing to do with "outside forces who imposed khomeini on us", although their air support in giving Gaddafi thugs a taste of their own medicine by means of high precision, electronically guided explosives, is well appreciated by the lybian people, I have no doubt.

The so called "intellectuals" need to step down their 1960's designed cloud coocoo land  and learn that democracy means the implementation of the will of people, be it shariat law, adam smith law or god  forbid Marx law. It will never be the "edy saaid law",  :) 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

lol VPK jaan

I DO like you, even if I sometimes do not agree with your views.  What I was trying to say is everyone in IC can read your comments to MK, Mehrban and others and some can say you can be a little personal when things get heated. Please do not take offense, but some are less forgiving than others. Perhaps write a blog about the subject and no more comments about that on this one. v

BTW Esfand,

Cliques tend to be more about power and control and less about the open door of friendship. Why devote so much time and energy to snobbism? People do not visit a public site for the blogger's validation but to add ideas and opinions. Whether you agree with them or not. Time and time again I see this negative attitude among Iranians, excluding based on this and that. How disappointing!

Dear Truthseeker

Would you please tell me what you don't like about me?

when more than one person gives the same hint it is time to look at ones behaviour and why one gives a certain impression.

If we went by that rule then no one would speak. Because there are always plenty of people who don't like others. I hope you know that from Stephen Colbert; Rush Limbaugh; to President Obama and pretty much every public figure they all have many people who don't like them. I don't even know what Esfand's issue is since I have not even had a debate with this person in months. Most the time people who accuse others tend to project their own issues.

Thanks DK and Esfand for the responses,

DK, the reason I said in my previous comment I am not closely familiar with Libyan history was because I was expecting that one response (not neccesarily yours) maybe that there are no Democratic precedents in Libya. 

However, in view of the blog from Tabarzin on Orientalism :), I was hesitant to actually consider the predominantly tribal make up of the country(?) as you have to explain Article1.  I am not sure if the choice of Sharia jurisprudence is in fact a choice of the people (I just don't know).  

My blog belongs to me, not JJ, since I can delete it.

My blog is my house and I'm not inviting you.  Everyone has it's own space and can decide what to do with it.  My choice is to NOT invite you. 

Now if you don't understand this then nothing else I can say will make any difference to you.  I don't think anything makes any difference to you anyway! 

Everything is sacred

VPK

I agree with you, we cannot exclude people who we do not like or have upset one of our friends out of public forum blogs. But I must say, when more than one person gives the same hint it is time to look at ones behaviour and why one gives a certain impression.

Esfand

This site is or blog is not "yours". It belongs to JJ and his investors. You have been given the privilageof writing a blog as long as you follow the rules. Just like anyone else.

MK had his and many people got into heated debates. He did not order anyone out. Just had arguments. This is what freedom of speech is all about.

I am not coming to your house. Believe me I would not even if invited! I am posting on a public board that belongs to IC. On my blogs I have welcomed anyone. Having other voices is a good way to learn from others.

Article (1) of the Royal Constitution doesn't mention Sharia

ARTICLE (1)

Libya is a free independent sovereign State. Neither its sovereignty nor any part of its territories may be relinquished.

Libya's Constitution 

What DK thinks is that 'Our Way of Life' is Not Their 'Choice

If you folks think that a Tribal country with barely a Middle Class like in Tunisia, Egypt or Morocco can establish a so called Western Style 'Democracy' Overnight then at best you are naive at worst you totally missed the moral dilemma of this UN Endorsed Operation.

The NATO operation is not aimed at Regime Change but Protecting Civilians.

The TNC itself is composed of former western educated technocrats of Gaddafi's government but who joined the Rebellion early on:

Who might lead after Gaddafi? (bbc)

But giving the Libyans a chance to set themselves free from a bloody tyrant was the main mission and purpose of this operation.

What Libyans choose to do with their freedom and what type of government they wish to choose is their problem not ours.

Are you claiming we should impose our "desires", "vision of society" and "our conception" of "democracy" on a population who fought and died for what they believe in ?

At this stage the problem is not what constitution they will have but how to bring things back to normal after this civil war. Disarm the population, create a State that can operate etc ...

From what I have understood the TNC itself is divided politically and no one has emerged as a Prominent Figure. They have the international recognition which is at best symbolic but the hard job of imposing their authority upon a nation torn by violence and anarchy. THAT is their major challenge.

They may ask the Coalition to act as a Peace  Keeping Force to guarantee the peaceful transition only if the TNC asks them to do so but that cannot be done without an official endorsement by the UN. 

One option for The Future constitution suggested is supposed to be based on the former Constitution under the previous monarchy:

Libya's Constitution

But it does not necessarily mean Libya will be a Monarchy despite the symbolic choice of the former Royal Flag by the Rebels in this uprising.

The TNC actually mentioned that the future government will be a Republic even if the Exiled Crown Prince and heir to the Throne of Libya has not relinquished his right and has said it will accept the choice of the people whatever that will be. 

Knock yourself out the veiled man!

If someone is so desparate who despite being told to leave keeps staying and continue with his nonsense, knock yourself out!  I'll be around here.

You can write your own blogs but instead you hijack other contributions and litter them with your nonsense for your own gratification and self-serving "promotions".

Rest assured that when and if i.com gives comment control to its Contributors I'll delete yours from my blogs.  Until then enjoy your rampage on the pages of i.com

Everything is sacred

Re: Insult by Esfand

I was going to flag it but someone else beat me to it. I would like to thank that person.

Tabarzin

Bankesters as you rightly say are interested in money. I want to keep Iranian territorial integrity. Those are not in conflict necessarily. We just have to prove they may streal as much.

We also have NIAC which does share my goal. Therefore we are not just at the mercy of the keyboard. Go join NIAC and help out. At least it is something to do. What do you think about it. 

We shall see...

And we in the diaspora can do little if the plutocratic banksters decide to dismember Iran unless, that is, we acquire cajones beyond sitting behind our keyboards on IC like Don Quixote thinking what we say matters and actually do something and take on the plutocratic banksters themselves who are out to dismember Iran.

Estand

As long as I am within IC rules I will post wherever I want. Take it up with the admin. Also stop your personal insults. 

Dear Tabarzin

Neither Chinese nor Russians will do jack. If West tries anything they will have China and Russia informed. If not on board at least warned not to interfere.

I do think IRI is on the plan. But I don't know what is the rest. We in diaspora must make sure to protect the integrity of Iran. That has got to be our primary goal.

VPK aka Loose Cannon! Quit littering my blog!

Everything is sacred

They deserve dictators

When people are so ignorant they deserve dictators. You give them a chance to have a real democracy. They opt for a Sharia oppression.

Mr Kadivar Re: Article 1

I told you so!

In the next year as Libya spirals into a horror not unlike Iraq's, there will be more I told you sos coming your way.

Re: Article 1

Article (1): "Islam is the religion of the State and the principal source of legislation is Islamic jurisprudence Sharia."

Well this is horrible news for me. What a bunch of ***. Shame on Obama; NATO and anyone involved in this sorry deal.

Mehrban jaan time will tell.

I'd think Iran is ahead of these countries when playing around with the idea of an Islamic Republic because again (I repeat again ;-) we've been there, done that!

Are we ahead of Afghanistan?  Not sure, for one thing Afghanistan does not have VF but I don't know if their Government will last long enough once NATO leaves, or if they're going to reform their civil laws and abandon Sharia law altogether.  Right now adultry is a crime, punishable not by lashes, but by imprisonment.

It seems when these countries kick out these dictatorships they just want to make noise and say they're there and "show" independecne, by show I mean a dog and pony show!  No real plan or outlook.

The future of these countries are not here yet, so my speculations don't mean much.  I wish them the best and certainly there will be "lessons learned" for all of us.  Who knows maybe we can use their future experience and by then Iranians are ready to shakeoff this regime like they did the Shah's once again, I repeat once again! 

Everything is sacred

****

This is terrible news (Article 1) but not surprizing, I wonder what DK thinks of this (or HBL for that matter).  I have not been following Libya's events or its history closely.  It is my understanding that The Egyptian uprising is over and the Muslim brother hood on the rise.  Pity.

Will Iran be ahead of the curve in adopting a secular democratic system ahead of its neighbors. 

Does this not finally prove

That the Khomeinist regime in Iran was installed in Iran in 79 by the very same people who are attempting to impose a Shari'a state upon Libya today?

The wests policy is different than what they say it is...

The Libyan TNC draft constitutional charter was put on line today. 

Article (1): "Islam is the religion of the State and the principal source of legislation is Islamic jurisprudence Sharia."

The west loves Islam in power for the middle east and north africa, the process of africanization is supported by both republicans and democrats alike, its national policy even if war is required to impose it on the people.

Freedom/democracy that's for patsys to follow, not what they did in Iran, Iraq, tunisia, libya etc etc.

Change in iran, say using mek is only intended for the worse of these countries.

The wests policy is different than what they say it is...

The Libyan TNC draft constitutional charter was put on line today. 

Article (1): "Islam is the religion of the State and the principal source of legislation is Islamic jurisprudence Sharia."

The west loves Islam in power for the middle east and north africa, the process of africanization is supported by both republicans and democrats alike, its national policy even if war is required to impose it on the people.

Freedom/democracy that's for patsys to follow, not what they did in Iran, Iraq, tunisia, libya etc etc.

Change in iran, say using mek is only intended for the worse of these countries.

The wests policy is different than what they say it is...

The Libyan TNC draft constitutional charter was put on line today. 

Article (1): "Islam is the religion of the State and the principal source of legislation is Islamic jurisprudence Sharia."

The west loves Islam in power for the middle east and north africa, the process of africanization is supported by both republicans and democrats alike, its national policy even if war is required to impose it on the people.

Freedom/democracy that's for patsys to follow, not what they did in Iran, Iraq, tunisia, libya etc etc.

Change in iran, say using mek is only intended for the worse of these countries.

Rea the Middle East may be heading towards Islamic Republics!

Unfortunately it seems to me once the dusts settles and the euphoria of "revolutions" have subsided these countries will choose some type of Islamic Republics.  Partly because of the excesses of their dictators who stole the countries' national resources and only pocketed their own and didn't spend anything on people or infrastructure.   

If Libya's draft constitution has the Sharia law then it is very sad and 1000 steps back.

However, VF and the Sharia law are two different things.  VF is a Shiite concuction and more specifically an Iranian Shiite concuction, and even more specifically Khomeini's concuction. 

VF almost didn't make it to the constitution and the first draft of the constitution that they presented to Khomeini didn't have the VF and he approved it.  But the stupid Bani Sadr (Iran's first President who escaped with Rajavi the MKO leader and later married his daughter off to him :-) decided to fool with it some more and add more liberties which made Khomeini not only reject those liberties but inserted VF back into it!

I have a feeling Afghanistan's Government may be a model for the future of these new Middle East Governments.  As you know the official type and title of Afghanistan is the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

Sunni's don't have as much hero worshipping and one figure rule that Shiites have.  One of the differences which set them apart when they first parted ways 1400 years ago.  So more than likely they won't have any VF but Sharia law can be worse.  Many of these Sunni countries who go to the Sharia law are far more brutal than VF and Iran.  Take Taliban or others.  Women are treated far worse than Iran. 

Everything is sacred

There are 2 choices in Syria

L Tolstoy once said

"Happy families are all alike, every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

The same applies to countries, so, no comparison.

Except for one thing. The Libyan TNC draft constitutional charter was put on line today. 

Article (1): "Islam is the religion of the State and the principal source of legislation is Islamic jurisprudence Sharia."

Is it VF in the making ?

even so,

there are a LOT MORE than 2 thousand- with those who have perished in prison or where never identified and burried in secret graves.

point is, don't give the akhoonds too much credit- they are the most ruthless barbaric beevatans since the mongols

also, they are sending forces and money to help assad crush his own people!