You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus!

How and why is the value of jendeh bazi so deeply rooted in the

How and why is the value of jendeh bazi so deeply rooted in the Iranian cultural system?

I think it's fairly simple.  Iranian boys and girls go to gender specific schools.  Iranian culture considers liberal sex a taboo as far as admitting to it.  In private it's ok but don't tell anyone!

So then you have these boys become young men, graduate from high school and they have not had any relations with a girl.  No talk much less sex!  At this stage with the hormones raging the easiest way to get the problem resolved is to seek a prostitude.  Once you go through it once and you don't get to find a girlfriend you stick with the prostitution until such time that you get married.  After marriage some still do it.

In order to change this cycle we first need to have co-ed schools from grade 1 -12.  But as Azadeh said once you start reforming the system you realize how much more is needed.  There is so much that needs to change in the gender apartheid Iran.  Co-ed school is just the beginning.

I don't know how girls do it with their hormonal rage after high school, perhaps get married sooner or y'all can tell me!  I just don't know! 

Everything is sacred

MOnda jan : When you

MOnda jan :

When you encountered hostility and belligerence , you chose to be compassionate -- Sometimes it seems as though the same people are trying to tick someone  off, anybody or everybody,  but you cannot give them that satisfaction.  After all, anyone who spews anger at you is truly angry at his or her own life, right? The best strategy is not confrontation -- but empathy and you displayed that beautifully.

Monda

Yes I agree with you.

Thinking of Iran and wanting the readers to ponder on how to deal with the question of prostitution in a future democratic Iran, I posted two blogs: one about Decriminalization and the other, about Legalization of prostitution.  For Iran (or actually for any country,)  I tend to opt for Decriminalization as it is practiced in Sweden.

However, it is impossible to deal with the issue of prostitution in a future democratic Iran without starting a Sexual Revolution in the society (at least in the middle classes) at the same time. I know that the young generation is much more liberal than our generation regarding sexuality. So, the idea of doing away with backward notions of compulsory virginity and purity as well as Mehrieh, sigheh and other religious stuff, is already present among the Iranian youth.

And when I think of Sexual Revolution in Iran, naturally I think of an end to Gender Apartheid first.  

Another thought: Most Iranians who oppose the Islamic State, speak against Gender Apartheid, yet they neglect to speak of another important social issue that is directly related to it. And that is the question of Sexual Harassment.

Today, as when I was a teenager, sexual harassment is a major problem  for women and girls in Iran.  I have compiled a lot of reports and complaints about sexual harassment in Iran and intend to write about it.

All of the above issues are closely related. You begin thinking of one issue in Iran, you find yourself thinking of hundreds of other issues that are related to it.

Cheers,

Azadeh

ComraidsConcubine

Neuroscience as applied today, has existed since the advent of Functional Magnetic Resonance imaging technology, beginning of 1990's. It is only now that scientists can clearly see the activations of neurons, in real time, in most locations within the brain structures, male and female. Therefore, studies on gender-specific behavior is extremely New - compared to the length of time it took for prostitution to become a socially accessible practice.

The rest of your accusations require a different form of expression for me to respond to, which I leave to you to create. Your anger and rage on and about this site - is unsettling yet heartbreaking. 

whose definition?

Who defines what prostitution is?  Obviously, if one stands under a lamp-post at night, (s)he may get arrested for prostituting for sex.

But, how about high priced call-ladies who do it for the good money?  How about ladies, or men, who do it for a short period of time in a religiously sanctioned sigheh situation?  Should Mehryyieh, Ketubah or prenuptial agreements be called "price for anticipated separation after a period of sex" and therefore a form of prostitution? If the answer to the last two questions is yes, then religion/state are also guilty of promoting prostitution?

I say: live and let live.  Now, I will hide behind a shield and listen!

A different approach to paradigm-shift

Azadeh jan, I respect your academic savvy and appreciate your informative reply to me.

I believe in order to modify a long-existing cultural value, we are best off knowing its impact from a more recent perspective. How and why is the value of jendeh bazi so deeply rooted in the Iranian cultural system?

Maybe only then, its recognition as human rights violation would be comprehensible. Your thoughts?

Is that OK to open an institute? :)

ComraidsConcubine : I would like to pay you if you could edit mine as long as everybody is OK with such an institute :) 

p.s. You brought up this subject because I mentioned in my previous comments that I wanted to improve my English.  What kind of attitude is to copy/paste all the time!  For your information I came to the US many years ago with the highest GRE and TOEFEL score.  However, I am always a man of growth and improvement.

By the way, what's wrong for asking for forgiveness?  I don't think that one is supposed to apologize only when the person farts. 

comments

The fact is that I'm not you and on top of it, I'm not a full-time idiot. Not for long anyway.  

And by the way, having had the unpleasant experience, - not a particular speciality here - of being subjected to wading through your comments on this site in general, let it be known that they are quite beyond illiterate grammatically wanting, but given the effort, of content too. 

The thought of sentence comprehension and a few of them  ---- the pain! 

Sayonara. 

Well I guess contemporary history is better suited for me!

I don't even like 1400 years ago with Arabs and Islam and all that!  So thousands of years ago is a given!  I suppose Charlie Sheen knows his ancient history when he talks about his "goddesses"!

Everything is sacred

Dear "comments" :-)

The expression "masculinity pride" was quite appropriate.  Who said you should be expert in a field in order to contribute?  I think you brought up an important point and I replied as much as I could. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Cheers,

Azadeh

A suggestion to all.

ComraidsConcubine: If I were you, I would have written an apology letter to Monda.  I am sure she will appreciate that and not feel you down.  Believe me, I did similar thing to one lady about 10 years ago in this website, and she replied so nicely.  It’s never late to make someone more cheerful.

To all: Is there anything wrong to appologize with your cyber names and make other to cheer?  What's wrong to make others cheerful?

Keep your peaceful phase please :)

ComraidsConcubine : Why did you write such a thing to Monda?  Why did you pick those sentences?  Why?  I think an epsilon common sense is enough to recognize a respected person. 

Azadeh: OK.  Please don't take me to the court :) OK.  The masculinity pride was not an appropriate term because this is not my field.  I express what I feel.  I don't think that one should be expret in one field in order to contribute.  Do you know how many undergrad assignments became the leading fields?  Am I irrelevant?  Maybe. 

Well, what I meant was that many men are not able to express themselves to women especially Eastern women.  Because the expectations of majority of those women is to find a "strong" men.  "Eastern Strong" is something else that I think women know better (yekdandeh, hamechizdan and not express the sad feelings only being entertainer and make everybody laugh??? maybe).  Please don't yell at me :) I am not that good on handling yells. 

Esfand jan

The reason you are confused is that the Bronze Age societies (of Mesopotamia, for instance) were full of contradictions and complexities. I suggest that you begin reading "The Origin and Nature of Patriarchy", beginning at the 3rd segment:   

 //iranian.com/main/blog/azadeh-azad/origin-and-nature-patriarchy-3  

Now my answer:

 People in the Bronze Age societies thought that ritual copulation, copulation in the temples in front of the Goddesses statues, would bring fertility for the whole community - a lot of children, a lot of cattle, a lot of crops. So, it was neither for money, nor for fun. It was a religious / ritual act based on Magical Thinking. Thinking that if men went to the temples and had sex (which they had learnt was the basis of male fertility), the whole society would be more prosperous. It is not logical. It is called magical thinking. These priestesses were not selling sex, they were simply venerating Gods and Goddesses and their fertility powers (in previous times, humanity used to think that women gave birth to children by themselves, without men's participation. So, they simply venerated the goddess for more children or crop, without any ritual sex act.)

So, Priestesses were having sex in the temples for the benefit of the community, which was now dominated by men (but not yet Fathers.) As the worship of goddesses and gods had become organized, it was decided that in order to pay for the institution of Priesthood (composed of men and women who were running the temples), men who had sex with the priestesses had to pay them. Is that clear?

This was the beginning of paying for sex, but the intention was not fun to begin with. However, with the passage of time and as slavery became the dominant mode of production, female slaves were used not only for productive works, but also for sex, this time for fun and exercise of power by men who could afford having slaves. Other men (most men) who did not have slaves, or were slaves themselves, could pay a female slave for sex. 

If you read The Dialectic of Paternity in The origin and nature of Patriarchy, you will realize that every man, even a slave, had to be superior to at least one woman: the woman he could use for sex. This is called the principle of Potency, which is an inherent part of Social Fatherhood and Patriarchy.

Let me know if you have other questions.

Azadeh 

Esfand jaan, what a funny comment

I mean the one you wrote that discussed crop and how prostitution does not have to do anything with children, You are funniest on IC.

and Monda,

your comment:

 "my comment to Azadeh I underscored the fact that Brain Research is extremely new."

are you for real???!!!

 Which century?

" I share your hope for better funding in gender-based research." 

As I tried to point out in another post, get over your ego-centric selves,ARROGANT,  and I do not usually bother to tell without potential, and learn! LEARN!!!!

There is a MULTITUDE of scientific data out there.  

It's not even part of my job. How come I come across it? 

JJ, go ahead block this account. I do try. I try everyday. I'm just not dumb and dishonest enough. Not that I haven't another 7 up my sleeves. But in all honesty, the two-faced whining around and all the the rest of it, doesn't comply to my ideas and ideals of an intelligent place to visit and especially not to contribute especially. You'd be doing my reality TV/big brother TV malaise  great favour, 

 addendum My below post doesn't mean to be as harsh as it may seem In actual fact, I have , for what it might be worth, loads of respect for you, Azadeh Azad and in my post below you will and anyone who can read ( a sort of whimsical species on this site)  notice the care that I saw in your care. Yours is genuine.

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Azadeh jaan I'm confused!

At first you say " ... men began to celebrate their own fertility via ritual copulations in Goddesses’ temples."

then you say  "although the veneration of the Goddesses and matrilineal system persisted. Men decided that if women had sex with many men in the goddess temples, their own and their communities’ crops and cattle would increase by association."

I can understand the relationship between sex and power/money in these cases, however, was this sexual act for money for having more children or having "fun"?  Regardless of how many partners a woman has she can only have one child a year so that's not going to help having more crops!

I don't get the connection between prostitution and having children.   I believe at some point having more children is out of this equation and it is just about having sex.   

Everything is sacred

The Origin of Prostitution

Monda: 

Like many elements of patriarchy, the beginning of prostitution is related to the discovery of the biological paternity. The discovery of the connection between sex and procreation (fertility.) While in the Neolithic Age, female fertility was celebrated, in Bronze Age, men began to celebrate their own fertility via ritual copulations in Goddesses’ temples.

Among hunter-gatherers and horticultural societies, prostitution did not exist – when they were first discovered and studied by the White man. We can deduct that it did not exist in Neolithic societies either. Goddesses represented, among many other things, women’s fertility power.

With the discovery of the role of male in human fertility, having sex became an act that brought fertility of humans, animals and by extension plants. Having sex before the statue of goddess in temples became a ritual to promote fertility and multiplication of children, animals and crops.

At the same time, men were in the process of creating social paternity, the institution of fatherhood that didn’t exist in the past. This is the period between the matri-centric societies of the Neolithic Age and the patriarchal societies of the Iron Age. This is the Bronze Age, and it is during this period of history that prostitution was invented by men.

As men invented plough, pastoralism and metallurgy, surplus products were accumulated in the hands of a number of them. Private property, money and wars appeared. Men could buy women and keep them away from other men in order to be the biological fathers of the children born to these women. They could also have a few slaves, mostly women. Men became the dominant gender, although the veneration of the Goddesses and matrilineal system persisted. Men decided that if women had sex with many men in the goddess temples, their own and their communities’ crops and cattle would increase by association.  As there was a direct connection between the rich men and the priesthood of the goddess temples, one of the jobs of the priestesses of the temples became having sex with many men.  Over the time, priesthood was not going to serve people for free. Men had to pay the priestesses (part of the institution of priesthood) for sex.

And we know the rest of the story. Once human beings invent something, they develop it in a variety of ways.

This is to show that prostitution is not the “oldest profession”, it did not always exist, and it could be eradicated as the slavery was.

Azadeh 

Paying for "a shoulder to cry on" is a waste of money!

It appears that we're again talking about the "dream" of having "sex" with a prostitude.  The actual act is just a business transaction and it's not even good business.

Looking at prostitution from a scholarly and books and articles point of view is one thing but going through with it is another.  The pimps and sex traffickers are often criminals whose crimes such as human trafficking are high crimes.

Regular Johns while they're contributing to this industry and criminal side effects, are only there to get "sex" when they couldn't get it elsewhere.  If it wasn't for prostitution many men would die of old age and never touch a woman.

There is no act of "control" or "dominance".  Sure many Johns are sick bastards like they're sick bastards in their day lives!  While everything can be subject of another blog the fact that Johns are just there for the sex act can be subject of another blog as well.

Men who pay a prostitude to cry on their shoulders are rare!  Not that there is anything wrong with it! 

Everything is sacred

Men's human right to cry

"Comments": 

Ask yourself: What is this “masculinity pride”? It is the absolute must of being strong. In a male-dominated society, every man must be strong enough to dominate and control (including his own feelings.). Male identity or masculinity is defined in terms of strength and the capacity to dominate and control. However, there are many men who, for varieties of psychological reasons including sensitivity or traumas, cannot adapt to this brutal must. 

Instead of rebelling against this oppressive requirement,  they continue to pretend that they are strong enough to dominate and control. That’s why they pay a sex worker “for a shoulder to cry.”

When you think of male-domination, you need to think of it as a social system and not as an originally individual choice or as the nature of male. Patriarchy dehumanized both men and women. What you call “masculinity pride” is oppressive to men as well as to women.

Why don’t men, especially Iranian men, begin to revolt against this inhumane system to liberate themselves? Why don’t they fight for their human right to cry?

I suggest that each man who reads these lines begin to think of it, read about it and explore it until he finds an answer, at least for himself.

Azadeh

comments

in my comment to Azadeh I underscored the fact that Brain Research is extremely new.

My response to Azadeh was briefly about a) prostitution as an old institution, b) function of prostitution and c) why women do not seek it as often as men do. Each point is a broad topic.  

I share your hope for better funding in gender-based research. 

Monda

I agree with you that "Dysfunctions in bonding with primary caregivers, lack of healthier self-soothing venues, dominant acceptability of remedies based on cultural values, and of course absence of research-based facts on human brain structures (and hormones) - all lead to why Now is the time we can afford to question the reality of prostitution as an institution."  It seems that research is so advanced these days, but that's actually not true.  So many basic questions are remained unknown.  I just saw a Grant funding (a part in below), and thought how complicated human beings are.  I don't have anything to do with sexual orientation subject in here, but I just wanted to mention how different people could be from each other, and how sex is a complicated subject.  Unfortunately, such a complicated subject is just divided to "good" or "bad" behaviour in the Iranian society.

"The Lesbian Health Fund (LHF), a program of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA), was established in 1992 to define, study, and educate lesbians and their health care providers about lesbian health issues. LHF's mission is to improve the health of lesbians and their families through investigation and research. Research goals include:
- determination of rates and risk factors for cancers and other diseases among lesbians;
- issues of access to medical care for lesbians;
- study of mental health concerns of lesbians and their families;
- definition and investigation of lesbian family issues; and
- methodologic exploration of diversity in the lesbian population."

Some of my thoughts

In reply to "Prostitution as a social institution is not needed at all." Prostitution has been an institution for thousands of years. In Ephesus, Turkey, as early as 1 BC, there was a whorehouse pointed by the erect phallic symbol etched on the cobble stones of the city's main street. Adjacent to the city's library! And that is not the oldest evidence of the practice either.

So, how is prostitution a social institution? The answer lies in as you said, 1) "Sex is in our brain, not in our genitalia." and 2) All institutions are founded on dominant cultural beliefs. 

When I spoke of "desperate human conditions", I meant that seeking easy detached sex is as old a remedy to the most fundamental human traumas, as those human traumas have existed in the history of mankind.

Many dilemmas contribute to the easy access for remedy. Recent researches show. Dysfunctions in bonding with primary caregivers, lack of healthier self-soothing venues, dominant acceptability of remedies based on cultural values, and of course absence of research-based facts on human brain structures (and hormones) - all lead to why Now is the time we can afford to question the reality of prostitution as an institution. And its implications against human rights. (My first reason for appreciating your blog, as much as I do.) 

With respect to your other intriguing point, " Why I - a woman with high libido -have never propositioned money for sex with a man?", again I would refer to research findings on female human brain and the role of culture on reinforcing gender-based values. In My processing of the possibility of my own self-soothing with a paid male sex worker - I don't believe it's the human rights violations that interfere with my choice. Rather it is what sex represents for me, as a woman, and as an Iranian woman. Again, as women, we manage our resources quite differently than our male counterparts do. 

Cheers to you Azadeh aziz and thank you for the opportunity to share some of my thoughts on your thread. 

David, Azadeh, Yolanda

 Azadeh Azad, why do you think that true account is "great" and Shazdeh's fictional story so offensive? And has anyone mentioned the "power" roles of women in the prostitution racket? From Madames to "hiring" lesbian/bisexual couples etc..

Yolanda, there is a more recent reference to the event. You're better at finding links than I am. ;)

David ET. Not as simple as that. First off, there are all sorts of arguments about what constitutes a "consenting adult", which raise the obvious questions of sanity, coercion (including the nature of the "commodity" of exchange), influence, harm etc. and then of course the  effects of actions on a particular society, the old private/public debate.

Basically, you can't have it both -  messy - ways, by wanting it legalized to protect and at the same time make a statement against government - law? -  interference. Clarification, please.

Otherwise I agree with the Dutch  or Reeperbahn  "syndicate" models for the present, although they have their own problems. 

Also, it was my first time

Also, it was my first time reading something from Shazdeh, and I have no idea who/how he is.  I quickly read the story.

I was thinking about a similarity between the story and the movie that I mentioned.  The similarity is that I don't think that the prostitute calls all men as Haji Agha in public.  I think Haji Agha is reserved for whore clients by the prostitute.  That's why the client didn't like it.  It was just a story.  Wasn't it?

All said, I realized that you comments to Shazdeh was not harsh in a constructive way.  Why should your comment target one person?  I think comments are more valuable if one expresses them in a general term other than targeting one single person who is nothing compared to the number of all readers in IC (in this case).  In addition, talking about someone's depressed wife is a kind of opening a transferable phsychiatry office.  On the opposite side, your comments in here were really intelegent and influential.

Azadeh.

I really don't think prostitution always represents male domination.  There are so many men who look for a shoulder to cry, and they find prostitutes appropriate for that purpose.  Because of their masculinity pride they don't do that with other women.  It seems dominant when they pick up/find/pay to the prostitute, but I don't see the same picture when they are in a bed with a prostitute.  I remember a movie.  The prostitute was laughing load and told the client.  "Are you done now?" "So get the hell out of here".  The male insisted that he pays extra to talk now. 

The below comment was great.

"I do not look at prostitution from a moralistic point of view. So, I have no judgment against the sex workers (male or female.) But I do oppose Johns, pimps and traffickers, and judge them harshly."

Azadeh jan,

Thanks for your reply.

You have certainly raised some intriguing points which I would like to reflect on, and write about - without all the grammatical errors and typos as in my first comment. So I will be back here soon. 

Thanks Azadeh jan for your comments

Addressed to me, particularly for pointing out that what I have in mind is decriminalization rather than legalisation.

David & Anahid

I believe what you are talking about is not called Legalization, but Decriminalization.

Here is a definition by Donna Hughes, Professor of the Women's Studies Program at the University of Rhode Island,  given in a 2004 article for National Review , entitled Women's Wrongs: 

"Legalization would mean the regulation of prostitution with laws regarding where, when, and how prostitution could take place. Decriminalization eliminates all laws and prohibits the state and law-enforcement officials from intervening in any prostitution-related activities or transactions, unless other laws apply."

Cheers, 

Azadeh

Anahid

Poeple do think of these married women as prostitutes. You are not the only one.

But what do you  mean by "why be super negative on Prostitution"? Being against exploitation of any kind is not negative or super negative. It is positive and an attempt to find ways to helps the prostitutes, the majority of whom, research shows, *do not wish to remain prostitutes.*  

If prostituion was as simple as you think ("if a woman wants to sleep and get paid for it, it is between her and the guy"), then there would be no need for discussion. The question is: do all or most women who sleep with a guy and get paid for it, choose this exchange?

Cheers,

Azadeh