Taleghani's Warning on Dictatorship

Ayatollah's words of wisdom at Friday prayers, 1979

08-Sep-2011
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Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

G. Rahmanian

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

The people I have seen are willing for work with everyone except MEK. Yes there is mistrust and bad feelings between Monarchists and JM. There are differences between all kinds of people. But I do see a Coalition except MEK.

In fact the way to not establish a Coalition is to include MEK or PMOI whatever. Because they will bring enough controversy to alienate others. Then for 3000 people you will lose 10 times as many. Not to mention their connections to Neocon forces.


G. Rahmanian

خدا يه عقل خوبي به من بده و يه پول زيادي به خودم

G. Rahmanian


How Not To Establish A Coalition: The Monarchists are out of the question. We know what they are after. JM and other small liberal groups are too small and cannot bring about the desired change. The MEK/PMOI is a cultists-terrorist-Ba'thist-treasonous entity and we don't want them. Bani Sadr and the gang are not reliable. Since we are residing outside of Iran we cannot decide for those inside. I am a bit confused, here. Am I the only one? Can anyone help?


Parham

It's not exactly the top echelons...

by Parham on

... of the MEK I was talking about. I was talking about getting all those inside who are sick and tired of the Masoud/Maryam dogma out of there to join the real opposition, before their home is broken in Iraq. This way you'll break whatever there is, and you add to the opposition force.


MM

Parham

by MM on

I am all for coelitions here, but the facts, the way I see them, are:

* MEK will soon not have a home at Ashraf.  No other country around Iran will give them a base to work from.  Their "fighters", up to 70% recruited under false pretences, will have to go elsewhere.  Practically, all there will be left is the upper level leaders that will try to get funding as the democratic front against IRI.

* Negociating with MEK: Sure, untill a higher bidder comes along.  They did that with IRI, Saddam and now neocons.  But, their hidden agenda lies in the Rajavi duo.  Once they get funding, they will not even acknowlege you, me, JM or even any professors. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Parham

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Do I make sense to you?

I know you asked this from MM but I will give you my response: no. There is no way to bring in MEK into anything. They have no power in the military sense. They are brainwashed to a point of insanity. And they are working for the Neocon. All they will do is to discredit any opposition that takes them in. They will give more credibility to IRI. And unite people of Iran behind IRI again. Is this what you guys want?


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Rea

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Many people including myself have praised him. Just read my posts. In fact that is why I think there is hope of reform. If other clergy like him come to power there will be peaceful reform.

Too bad the discussion has turned into a side argument about his death. People have a habit of going side ways. 

You need to read all the posts not just a few disagreeable posts. 


Parham

MM

by Parham on

I know you don't see the PMOI/MEK/MKO as a viable force to topple the IRI --I don't either-- but I sure think it would have been possible to use their might (whatever they have and however they have it) in order to accomplish a few things for the opposition: That, by negotiating with them a deal to guarantee a place for their members in the democratic forces (as Masoud likes to call us/them) and out of the quagmire they're in with Iraq and the cult-like aspects of the system they're stuck in, in exchange for them to abandon their Masoud/Maryam Rajavi dogma and old ideology completely. Right now the opposition CAN do that through the US in Iraq. Believe me, there are many in their ranks who would like to do so...

That would, at the same time, lower their danger should anything happen to the IR by at least decreasing their numbers and at best completely dissipating them, and help the real democratic movement get bigger and more united (and perhaps even have a military or pseudo-military arm).

I think the idea you guys don't see in what Masoud wants to put up front is one of a coalition of forces.

Do I make sense to you?


Parham

Masoud-e aziz

by Parham on

I guess that's where the whole difference lies. I am aware of the traditionalist sector of the population. However, I don't think Bani Sadr is the person to bring that population together, or that he should be relied upon to do so anyway. In other words, I think he's weak link in there.
I also doubt that one could measure the support he'd have now by the (so-called) support he had way back.

But you are right about the perception of him as a democrat. You somehow do see him as that, and I think "tobeye gorge marge"!

By the way, thanks for all the Pepsi-Colas! : )


Roozbeh_Gilani

Rea: There was more than one person actually..

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

The actual blog was in Farsi so you probably missed it. Also the bulk of comments were focused on how Taleghani was killed/died, which as informative they were, was not the topic of the blog itself. But some , including myself, highlighted that Taleghani symbolised a faction of clergy which was/is politically progressive and on the side of people. 

Masoud articulated very well with some historical data. Take a look at his main comment.

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear Parham, on Bani Sadr

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear Parham,

You are highly educated and very laic. Unfortunately, most Iranians are not like you. If they were, Iran would have had an advanced secular democratic polity by now. Compared to you, the overwhelming majority of the Iranian people have less education, not exposed to the French version of secularism, and they are more religious. If we are to get rid of the vf regime and bring democracy to Iran, somehow we have to bring these sectors of our people into the struggle against the vf regime and then in the construction of a pluralistic Iran in the post-fundamentalist period. You and I cannot mobilize those who are religious, but someone like Bani Sadr did (and could).

You expect everyone to be fully secular democrat and fully cognizant of modern democratic practice. Just look at the posters on this site. See how many are fully dictatorial, write utter nonsense day in and day out. And these folks are supposedly far better educated than average Iranian and have lived in Western countries and thus exposed to democratic realities!!!!!!

Iran is a country which about half the population lived in rural areas and now in 2011 about a third lives in rural areas. My friend, YOU are even too advanced and too secular for people in Texas and much of America.

We need to somehow bring the traditional folks in the struggle. They will gradually learn and evolve. Ironically, the vf regime has opened the eyes of so many people including the traditional segments of the our society. The old traditional perspectives are dying. The new ones will emerge in time. In the meantime, there is a need for a bridge that many could walk from tradition to mixed forms to an eventual full secular democracy and modernity. People like Bani Sadr and Taleghani are that bridge.

The process of enlightenment is a long term process. The process of democracy, however, requires a pluralism that many kinds of people co-exist side by side although they differ greatly. The struggle to get rid of the vf regime is an immediate necessity, one which requires the broadest possible coalition.

Coalition by its very nature means that we sit down and work with those who differ from us. It is based not on our maximum demands and values, but on the minimum demands. I think Bani Sadr does meet the minimum. But, unlike you, I also do think the dude is a democrat (although with a lot of shortcomings and caveats).

Best,

Masoud

 


Rea

What a strange bunch of people !

by Rea on

There was one person who'd dared stand up to the rest of them.

And now there are people rubishing him. Yet they had all picked their nose and ran away when the going went tough.

Wow !


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Dear MM

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Again you bring the voice of reason. Some people around here take it upon themselves to make labels. For instance "this one is pro democracy"; "that one is viable". No one becomes a democrat or viable opposition by a name! 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

A few things

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Parham says: 
But then I'm not a member of JM! . VPK says: good for you!

Pendar says:  In response to people opposing IRI:  How do we know? Iranian public is not limited to northern tehroonis. VPK says: Because anyone who gets a chance leaves. No matter whether they are leftist; rightist; Muslim they all want to go!

Folks regarding who killed Teleghani that is not the point. It is his message against dictatorship which matters. Now you argue about who killed him. 


MM

Parham

by MM on

Listening to the Harvard archives was an eye-opener for me and I agree with your assessment.  Calling someone "democratic force" does not make them democratic, as much as calling PMOI a viable opposition to topple IRI.


Parham

On Bani Sadr

by Parham on

Masoud-e aziz, my perception is that there is a big miscalculation on his subject on behalf of JM. That's up to you people to decide upon and not my cup of tea, although I must say it's part of the things that have kept me away from Jebhe Melli.

This conversation started when you came up with the idea that Bani Sadr was part of the "forces of democracy" (or something in that order), and I'd like to oppose that idea completely and vehemently. I see no sign of democracy in the guy, no matter how much we tickle ourselves. I only see a fake man who keeps fabricating stories (some of them outrageous) and someone who has been doing that forever --meaning it doesn't look like he will ever change. One only has to look at his doctoral thesis, which is full of complete nonsense (and I mean nonsense) and at parts a new fabrication of the French language, actually!

Anyway...


پندارنیک

For weekend fun, but not funny at all......not a single bit...

by پندارنیک on

 

 

"The monarchists have one leader"

Please keep him as your leader.............he's the best leader that anti-monarchists can wish for.......

 

"The PMOI is by far the most organized and disciplined group in Iran."

Each member, including their foreign rent-a-crowd, comes with his or her fire extinguisher..........

 

"Ethnic minority parties have proved that they are able to cause a great many problems for the regime"

The question of different ethnic groups is so seriously profound that makes it unfit for the weekend fun...

"In sum, although the vast majority of the Iranian public opposes the fundamentalist regime"

How do we know? Iranian public is not limited to northern tehroonis. 

"Bani Sadr is not an ideal person"

You must be joking.........How can an echonomist/ex father-in-law of a terrorist who won a Nobel prize in physics for discovery of divine ray in women's hair, be not good enough for you?

 

Or, something like that...

 

 


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear Arj

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear Arj,

You are misunderstanding my position. It is a FACT that rumors existed about Taleghani’s death. One was that Khomeini-Behesthi killed him, another rumor was that the USSR killed him. Not once, but twice, I stated that my opinion is that the two rumors were false and that he died due to heart attack.

You keep presenting arguments that the USSR could not have killed Taleghani. I have no problem with your arguments. They are actually very good arguments. But your arguments are NOT about my position. My position is that there was a rumor and I posted video of a dude claiming to be one of Khomeini’s physicians. It is a FACT that such rumor existed. That rumor was based on the rational that the USSR-Tudeh Party supported Khomeini and strongly opposed liberals and independent leftists. Tudeh Party called the liberals "jadeh saf kon imperialists" and all sort of vicious attacks. The Tudeh Party believed that the Nehzat Azadi and JM would create a government which would create good relations with the U.S., whereas Khomeini was intensely anti-American. Taleghani was solidly with Nehzat Azadi and very close to JM. These are the bases of hostility between Tudeh Party-USSR and the democratic forces in 1979.

Saadati was a top leader of the PMOI. His job was to be the contact person between the PMOI and the Soviet embassy. That does not make him a spy. Many parties including Khomeini’s own inner circle had designated individuals whose responsibility was to be in contact with this or that embassy. Ayatollah Beheshti had personally met US officials and Khomeini himself directly met Soviet ambassador. These contacts do not make Beheshti and Khomeini spies. Similarly, Amir-Entezam was the person designated by Nehzat Azadi to meet with US officials. That does NOT make Amir-Entezam a spy.

Taleghani was right that mere meeting between Saadati and Soviet officials does not make Sadati a spy. The regime later executed Saadati as a Soviet spy.

In conclusion, we are talking pass each other. We are NOT talking about the same issue. I have no problem with your arguments that the Soviet ambassador did not kill Taleghani. It is indisputable that there was a rumor that the Soviet ambassador killed him.

Best regards,

Masoud


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

With all due respect to JM

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

It is about as relevant to future of Iran as dinosaurs to Earth. Bani Sadr; JM and all those guys had their day. It is long gone and has no power left. How many people in Iran are expecting JM to bring about their salvation? 

When they had their change they blew it and went for Khomeini. Now they are getting in bed with MEK which they like to call PMOI. That has shredded the last bits of credibility they once had. Why I ask should anyone bother with JM,

When a real change happens it will happen without JM. Without their buddies MEK. And without any of this stuff. Meanwhile JM is going to keep rehashing the events of 60 years ago. Proving they are living in ancient past. No thanks JM.


Masoud Kazemzadeh

Dear Parham

by Masoud Kazemzadeh on

Dear Parham,

Bani Sadr is not part of JM, nor is he part of any alliance with us now. One makes alliances with other forces based on one’s analysis. If JM was able to get rid of the vf regime by ourselves, we would have done it already. If an alliance of JM-NAMIR was able to accomplish this task, it would have been done already. The point is that our society is comprised of many forces. There are many issues that badly divide us. Moreover, these divisions are not solid lines of divisions; rather they are fluid lines that switch among different issues. Let me cut-and-paste my analysis from my earlier article:

//iranian.com/main/2008/fatal-attractions

 

Weaknesses of Opposition to the Regime
Although any of the main opposition groups (democrats, monarchists, PMOI) could conceivably provide a political system and leaders far superior to the incumbent regime, a variety of factors have prevented the success of the opposition. One of the main characteristics of Iranian political culture is excessive self-centeredness. Another characteristic is the inability to cooperate with others for the greater good, punctuated by total obedience to a leader.

All indications are that if there were free and democratic elections, the democratic republicans would win. However, the democratic forces lack a strong party and a charismatic leader to unite and organize the various parties and their social base. Their nonviolent method of struggle has proved to be incapable of convincing a tyrannical and violent oligarchy to accept free elections. Although many in their social base would gladly vote for the democratic forces, they believe that such methods would not succeed and are not willing to sacrifice their jobs, wealth, liberties, and lives in a futile and idealistic struggle against the violent fundamentalists. The personal ambition for power shown by too many individuals, each one believing that all others have to follow his or her leadership, has further dispersed and weakened the democratic forces.

The monarchists have one leader, which is an advantage in Iranian political culture. Monarchy, by its very nature, however, demands special and permanent powers for one person and family (who inherits those powers without periodic elections). Monarchy has provoked intense and irreconcilable opposition from all other opposition groups in Iran. The monarchists' social base is too small to overthrow the regime by itself. Reza Pahlavi has failed to build any coalition. The intense hostilities between democratic republicans and monarchists have prevented any alliance between the two. Monarchists blame the democratic forces for cooperating with Khomeini and overthrowing them, whereas the democrats blame the monarchists for their dictatorship and repression. Moreover, democrats fear that monarchists wish to reimpose their dictatorship and simply do not believe Reza Pahlavi's repeated pledges to respect the vote of the people. Great amounts of time and energy have been spent by republicans and monarchists in debating and attacking one another instead of concentrating their activities on the fundamentalist regime. It appears that the only way to generate trust would be for Reza Pahlavi to renounce the monarchy and mobilize his supporters into a conservative republican party. Only such a creative and courageous move would unequivocally prove his commitment to democracy and virtually guarantee a broad based coalition capable of mobilizing the masses and undermining the fundamentalist regime.

The PMOI is by far the most organized and disciplined group in Iran. It is capable of carrying out military operations inside Iran and mobilizing many thousands of its supporters abroad. Because of its ideology, history, and leadership, it is resented and feared by the vast majority of Iranians. It is clear that PMOI neither could win any major election nor overthrow the regime. It is also clear, however, that it has enough muscle, organization, and committed members to be a significant player in Iranian politics. Its dictatorial leadership has alienated it from all of the major opposition groups.

Ethnic minority parties have proved that they are able to cause a great many problems for the regime, but they have not succeeded in making alliances with national parties. If a formula could be found that would both safeguard the civil rights of ethnic minorities and preserve the territorial integrity of Iran, a broad coalition would be possible. As long as ethnic parties demand "autonomy," it will be virtually impossible for national opposition parties to make coalitions with them.

In addition to the aforementiond factors, a number of cleavages exist among as well as within opposition groups and the society at large. Such opposition groups

engage in armed struggle or nonviolent methods of struggle or a combination of the two;

advocate the establishment of a unitary system or an American-style federal system or a confederacy based on ethno-sectarian autonomy;

advocate economic sanctions or oppose them or remain silent;

cooperate with the United States or remain neutral in the confrontation between the United States and the fundamentalist regime;

enter into overt or covert relations with the United States;

call on the people to vote for reformist members of the fundamentalist oligarchy under certain circumstances or advocate a boycott of elections.

These cleavages have led many opposition elements to spend a great deal of time debating and attacking other opposition elements instead of attacking the fundamentalist regime. The primary beneficiary has been the regime.

In sum, although the vast majority of the Iranian public opposes the fundamentalist regime and strong opposition groups exist, several serious issues divide the opposition groups. The failure of one leader (or a handful of leaders cooperating with one another) to emerge and present a formula capable of uniting the opposition has prevented the widespread dissatisfaction with the regime from coalescing and coming to fruition. This kind of divisiveness has enabled the regime to contain and suppress numerous actions by students, women, workers, writers, journalists, urban poor, human rights activists, and minorities.

 

 

 

If we continue the current dynamic, the vf regime wins. If we want to get rid of the vf regime, we need to change the current dynamics. We need to find a formula that corners the vf regime (especially the hard-line faction) and brings together all the others, or at least most of the others. The broader the potential coalition, the higher the likelihood of success, the sooner we will win, and the less bloody the change of regime, and the higher the likelihood of peace and reconciliation in the post fundamentalist Iran.

Bani Sadr is not an ideal person, but compare to monarchists, may leftists, PMOI, and ethnic groups, he sure is much better.

My 2 cents,

Masoud

 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Great Revolution!

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

What a joke the "Great Revolution" was the dumbest thing Iranians did. The one thing I find worse than the revolution is its today supporters. How is anyone able to defend that disaster!

If people had waited 2 years Shah was going to be either dead or dying. His son Reza would have taken over. Knowing him it is very likely that he would have allowed more freedoms. Specially if Bakhtiyar was allowed to run his government.

Now people blame the Pahlavi. Fine Shah was no saint but "corrupt"? How bad was he really? The only evidence of so called theft I have seen is 40 million worth of his family. This is basically what an average hedge fund manager makes in USA.


AMIR1973

Of Pahlavis' corruption (a tribute to Stalinist writing styles)

by AMIR1973 on

The Pahlavis' corruption has been multiplied many times over in financial and human terms by their Islamist opponents and in AN-tellectual terms by those Stalinist and Third Worldist elements who choose to live in the West rather than in any of their "revolutionary" objects of affection and who choose still after 32 years to propagandize against an authoritarian king whose regime executed hundreds over 38 years in favor of a "Great Revolutionary" regime that executed tens of thousands within the first few years of coming to power. It's cost-free to proclaim the Greatness of the Great Revolution, when you're living in Western Europe or North America, isn't it?


Arj

Re rumours and facts

by Arj on

Dear MK, repackaging rumours as FACTS does not make them facts! The issue is not whether or not the rumor about Russian embassador killing Taleghani existed. It is the rationalization behind it that seems to be your personal assumptions. Rumors are simple and short cuts between two points, they're not anlytical. Moreover, if "Taleghani posed a threat to USSR’s goal in Iran...", why would their embassdor have lunch with him at his house? That's a sign of friendship to me (unless there's another sophisticated rumor that spins this into a sign of malice!). Not to mention Tleghani's vociferous defence of Sa'adati and criticizing his arrests as Soviet spy, "why do they always capture Russian spies in this country, and never an American spy?" as he famously uttered! It's beyond my comprehention as to how Soviets could be threatened by this man! 


پندارنیک

It takes balls.

by پندارنیک on

Not the balls only, he had the mike, audience and clean past............When the bullets silenced, tires burnt out and chaos demanded order, there were only a few, a very few politicians who were able to mobilize the public in a constructive manner. His death created a desirable and sought-for vacuum for the enemies of the revolution.....................


Rea

comrade

by Rea on

Where were they, those political entities who'd known what it was all about, blah, blah ?

At least, he spoke out. It takes balls.


Simorgh5555

"greatness of our revolution"

by Simorgh5555 on

 

Pendar Jan, there you go again..... 

How can a revolution be 'great' when millions of its citizens have fled including its beloved daughter Pendare Nik.

Don't blame Reza Pahlavi for your own shortcommings. You told him to go and you got what you wished for. Your Lefty/Islamists chums couldn't  deal with running the country so you slaughtered thousands of Iranians and once you finished cheerleading them on you left.

Pendar Jan, can't you answer a simple question as much as it is personal.

WHY DID YOU LEAVE? 


Simorgh5555

Amir 1973

by Simorgh5555 on

Precisely. Why does the anti-imperialist pro revolutionary thinkers such as Pendar or Soraya 'Sepahpour Ulrich  chose to live in the USA? Is this not the same USA which they allege had overhtrown Mossadeq and installed a poppet dicator. Is this the same USA which they denounced for meddling in the affairs of Iran and supporting Israel? 

Nobody asked them to leave and even if they chose to do so they could have gone to Cuba, Malaysia or Indonesia. Any country but the Great Satan for F-Sakes! LoL. 

Notice how they then try to ingratiate themselves with other 'fellow Americans' by calling it a 'Great Country' after they spent half their lives denouncing everythign they do. Then they slagg off Israel non-stop using the 'I'm-an-American-tax-payer' excuse.

 


پندارنیک

Of revolution's "Greatness"

by پندارنیک on

Instead of waiting for me and my pathetic ESL to define the merit and greatness of our revolution, pick up a history book written by a credible non biased academic and go through the pages which covers our history from the Cyrus the Great and his useful cylinder to Farvardin, 12 in the year 1358.......that's all you have to do............and if you feel at loss, because of what the revolution has done to you, send the bill to Reza joon for restitution........his corrupt family's fault...............


AMIR1973

The true measure of a revolution's "Greatness"

by AMIR1973 on

Is when its Stalinist cyber-proponents choose to board the first plane at Mehrabad Airport (or was it the first donkey at Marz-e Bazargan?) and fly far, far away from the wreckage of the Great Revolution and settle down in its exact antithesis, i.e. the Decadent Imperialist West (perhaps one of the Revolutionary-designated Great or Little Satans?). 


Simorgh5555

Great Revolution of 79

by Simorgh5555 on

Strange why you did not remain in Iran to enjoy the fruits of your  'Great Revolution' of 1979.

Pre-1979 You were living in Iran

Circa 1979 - You emigrated.

'Nough said 


پندارنیک

"No prophet ever hath honour in his own country."

by پندارنیک on

Every single political entity saw what was coming and knew what was about to becoming the result of the Great Revolution of 79. He was no prophet but a realistic politician.......