Current Events

 interesting news in

 interesting news in Toronto Sun:

 //www.torontosun.com/2011/08/02/yonge-dundas-smackdown

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

Mehrdad

is my friend and I do respect him. We agree over most topics. We disagree here. I am not calling Mehrdad an Islamist in any way. Just want to be clear about that. People may be friends yet disagree and respect each other.

Many liberal minded people oppose the French rule. I am pretty liberal myself but I support it. This is a matter of opinion and to me a very strong one. It is obvious that others feel just as strongly as I do. Maybe on the other side of the argument.

Hijab

is very much like segregation and slavery. Both segregation and slavery were oppressions. Hijab is also a form of oppression and banning it is just like banning slavery. Yes a person may say "well I want the right to sell myself into slavery". The civilized world say: No! You may not do that even to yourself! 

Because once you set the precedent of slavery then no person is safe. We have banned slavery even if it is voluntary. Same goes for extreme hijab which is burka and I would add chador to it. 

This is a matter of civil rights. Of those who will be forced to live in a world of hijabs. To me as an Iranian hijab is as offensive as a swastika to a German or a Jew. I don't care if veils were before Islam. No more than a German would that swastika were used before Nazis. Their use in the modern wolrd has made them become symbols of oppression and hate. 

I also agree with Arthimis and AO about the utter hypocrisy here. The  people who say "In Iran hijab is the law; obey it" now say "France is unjust". It boils down to one thing: Islamism.

If you are a hard core Muslim you do not care what any nation says. Your law is that of Islam. No man made law matters to you. At least be honest about it and admit it. 

I admit my distaste for any hijab and total opposition to burka and chador. I am being honest. Why not try it one the other side of the argument.

To All you Iranians who

To All you Iranians who bash France for taking this very democratic action:

Stop pretending to be Gandhis and Mother Teresas, You are NOT, OK!

The undenieable fact is that Fanatic muslims due to their lack of proper education, massive insecurities and hostilities have shown over and over that they always feel self righteous and self entitled on every level and always impose & force their backwardness on the rest! Now even in Europe and the West! For love of God, these people have taken over IRAN for over 33 long and miserable years NOW!!! Havn't you got your lessons? What and who are you defending in the name of democracy?? Persians made a mistake 1400 years ago and paid dearly, they made the same mistake in 1979 and are living the most horrible consequences right now as we bullshit around here... 

Give them (Islamists) an inch and they will take over the entire country, continent and the world! That's their only & ultimate goal and intention to begin with!!! Democracy??? I'm speechless!!!

Democracy only applies to those who comprehend it and participate by compromise and give and take on individual level , community and society as whole!!! They have proven that they do not care and respect for other people's rights and democracy over and over again!!! You want example? How about our own Motherland, Iran???THEY ALWAYS TAKE, BUT GIVE NOTHING IN RETURN!!!! Their way or (in most cases) they will kill you!!! THE BIGGEST EXAMPLE AGAIN IS YOUR IRAN, OUR IRAN!!!! CAN'T YOU SEE?

Those who defend these people here are most likely "Agha Zadehe"s so deeply brainwashed and tied to Islamic faith that they can't see and hear the bitter truth & reality, despite their long time living in the west and the FREE WORLD! The hypocrisy is beyond imagination, it starts to be self righeous, delusional and bi-polar, just like Ali Khamenei, Ahmadi Nejad & CO.!!!

FREE IRAN & IRANIANS. (That's what you must worry most!!!) 

Dear commnets: Sepass gozaram

VPK is my friend and I respect him, though did not appreciate his comment this time.

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Ali jaan: in democratically oriented nations

Laws must be abided, but not necessarily accepted. Just because it is a law, it does not make it right and just.

Case in point:

- Slavery was the law of land at some point and US was a democracy. Hardly any one now days think it was a good law.

- Discrimination (marriage law) against gays and lesbians is the law of land in a democratic nation (USA) many including myself think this is discriminatory and wrong.

The hejab law in France is not just for non-citizens, it encompass every one including a French woman if she chooses to wear it. Should she give up her right to live in France or fight (non-violence) to change it.

Isn't signing petition, civil disobedience, etc a proper way to resist laws that is discriminatory in nature and infringes on your rights?

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

What I find quite interesting here is the utter hypocricy

of Islamists.  It actually goes beyond hypocricy, and enters the realm of arrogance.  Here's the reason why:

When one talks about forced hejab in Iran, these characters won't waste a second in jumping out and screaming "it's the law of the land.  You may disagree with it, but it's the law, and you should follow it."  Well, this is the law in France, and unlike in Iran, it was enacted through a DEMOCRATIC system, where the majority of the DEMOCRATICALLY elected representatives of the people of France decided that this should be the law.  One may not like it (one, such as me, who believes that people should dress whichever way they want), but it is, nonetheless, the law.    

Dear Bavafa

"Did you get to know me just today that you are explaining ..."

Your comment was really funny to me.  Since he was your "brother" you expected him to be more accurate in words.  At the end you could have added: please don't forget to turn off the stove and lock the doors when you leave........

Go France

If they don't like the ban, they can always go back to their Islamic Bastions of Freedom they escaped from.

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

Just Law vs. Unjust Law

Mehrdad:

In democracies, citizens have certain fundamental, unalieanable rights: Rights that, even when the majority gangs up against a minority, cannot be taken away from the minority. Right to express your unpolular view, choose any food to eat, or to worship Satan, among them.

These rights are GENERALLY respected. There are still minor exceptions here and there :

If your view is enticing others to a violent overthrow of  government, they won't allow it.

If you choose to kill and eat your domestic animal, they won't allow it.

If as part of your religious ceremonies to worship Satan, you have to get high as a kite, they won't allow it.

Any country that GENERALLY furnishes  these rights to its citizens, is considered a democracy.

However, non-citizens , anywhere, are not afforded- nor  are they expected - the same rights. 

Example:

We gave up sheep sacrifice, when we moved to the US. Killing a sheep, in your bathtub, and giving the meat away to your relatives in illegal here. Is this a just law, or an unjust one?

I am not going to sign petitions, or go to some rally, asking the removal of sheep sacrifice ban. If I want to live here, I gotta go by their laws.

Or I can always get out.

Jenabe pedarmax

Na aga joonam ensan hage azadiye bi nahayat nadrae. Bayad be ghanoon goosh bedeh ya mindazanesh to holof doni.

No one has absolute freedom and you are bound by laws. I am not going to argue if they are just or not but it is reality. If I want to break a law I better know what I am doing. For example if you want to swim naked in my condo's pool better wait until night so no one will see you. If they did see you they will fine you and throw you out. If you want to smoke pot you better watch you don't get busted. By the way I think both rules are stupid but that is the way it is. Our condo democratically rules no nude swimming. My state has rules pot is decriminalized by illegal. I don't swim naked or smoke pot so it does not really affect me. But I disagree with both rules. No matter I am bound by them.

Mehrdad

I think an Islamic nation by nature is a dictatorship. Because Islam demands submissions. That leads to dictatorship regardless of all. Before 1979 Iran was not an "Islamic" nation in today's sense. We were allowed alcohol; freedom of religion; no forced hijab and neither is today's Turkey. 

How are we better than them?

I don't want to be better than France. If Iran were to be as good as France I would be happy! I admit to having modest goals. 

hemaghat jahani .. ya shooreh shoore ya binamakeh binamak!

ya bezoor chadoor be saret mikonan ya bezoor az saret dar miaran. kay mikhiam arzesh ensan ro befahmim va be azadi va hagheh entekhab adama ehteram begozarim? 

And what can I say, it is a good fit

The name: "abgousht"

The mentality: "customers were wearing some sort of the burka which made me extremely mad"

And the social behavior: "three glasses of doogh made me gas the place before I left"

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

VPK: Guess what?

Did you get to know me just today that you are explaining the difference between and "Islamic nation and a free nation"?

Or did I ever equate the two type nation that compelled you to explain the differences?

Also, it is not a virtue of "Islamic" but "dictatorship" that illuminates those differences? Turkey or Iran pre 79 revolution technically was/is a Muslim nation yet is not the same as SA, today's Iran or many other ME countries.

And yes, those you listed are correctly "Islamic logic" but I condemn implementing the very same logic in the Western societies such as in France.

If we are going to argue that this is what they do, expect us to dress like them (hejab) when in their country, therefore we do the same to retaliate then how are we better then them?

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

Les Français ont raison !

این اسلامیستها؛ ری@ن به خاورمیانه هنوز دست بردار نیستند!! برای این شپش بازیها هنوز پاکستان، عربستان، افغانستان، الجزایر و جمهوری اسلامی موجودن؛  نمیدونم چرا میخوان با  این همه زور برند بورکا  تو  کشور لوختیهای نیس  و کوت د زور سر زناشون کنند؟ 

I hope this law will be passed in America as well!

A couple of months ago during a trip to DC, I stopped by Shamshiri chello kaboby in McLean, VA and half of the customers were wearing some sort of the burka which made me extremely mad.

Combination of the discomfort of witnessing that and three glasses of doogh made me gas the place before I left. Good for them!

Islamic logic

is very simply this:

• In their nations you abide by Islamic law.
• In your nation you abide by Islamic law.

If you don't like it you are imposing on their rights. If you dare raise your voice you are a racist. Or you are an Islamophobe; a right winger; blah blah. The reason is because they believe Islam is the word of God. Hence all must submit to it no matter where.

Mehrdad

You say:

Any of these women can technically argue that I do have full rights under French system and therefore the full hejab is based on my own choosing and not forced on me.

Guess what! The woman will get a chance to argue that in front of a magistrate. Without fear of being raped or stoned. She may win or lose her case but she will get a hearing. That is the difference of an Islamic nation and a free nation.

However French law says masks aka burka are banned. Hence she probably lose the argument. You may think the law is unjust but it is not up to you. It is a democracy and the majority has ruled that way. That is all.

In America where I live clothes are mandatory. I may not go in the street naked. At least not with my private parts shown. I may argue I against it but I will lose. Right wing or not it is a democratically passed law. By the way Swastika are illegal in Germany but legal in USA. Different nations have different laws. Do you believe in democracy or not? If not then she has no rights. If yes then she has rights within the democratic system. Either way she is on the wrong side of it.

If she wants she may try to get the law changed. Petition the government to do so. If she gets sufficient number of representatives the law will be changed. She may challenge the law in court and maybe it will be thrown out. All of these are rights denied to people in Islamic nations. 

The difference of a free nation and one like IRI is just that. You may work to get a law changed through legal means. Without fear of retribution. In an Islamic nation you get no such right. I see laws changed all the time in the USA.

When it the last time a law got changed in Iran due to public outcry? All you get there is Evin or to swing off a crane. I am sorry that this seems to escape so many people. Because their devotion to Islam blinds them to reality of democracy.

Call it illigal or whatever! Fact of the matter is that Islamic

countries force the body cover not only on their Muslim citizens but also on the non-Muslims.

For example, Armenians and other religious minorities in IRI are forced to wear the cover because it is the law!

Guess what, France passed the law against wearing burka, so abide by the law!

Why are you going double-standard here!

She should leave France and go back to her country

These hejabis are hypoceites where if you go to their country, they want you to dress like them, but they feel they can go to another country and should be allowed to dress the way theu always do. They cannot have their cake and eate it too.

If you want Islam. then go back to an Isalmiic country.Leave the French people (and other people) alone!

Cousin Farmaraz jaan:

Cousin Farmaraz jaan: these women should be held as exotic as any others

If we do truly believe in what we are preaching, that is equality & freedom for all, then these women's rights and wishes must be held as dear as those in US who fight from choosing the right NOT to birth or the Iranian women fighting not to hejab.

I do understand your point about making women wear ridiculous clothing perhaps in a 100F weather, but this law is not about that. No where in this law says that is banned if it is forced upon them, nor is for any security reason as there are ample ways to satisfy those security concerns. 

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

French stupidy and

French stupidy and arrogance at its worst. French have never been able to think well. Look through history, they have always lost the wars to The British.   What a waste of resources.

Security is an excuse for France.

First of all, burka is a contraversy subject since France always claims the leadership in world's human right.  Comparing France with IRI is definitly an exageratory comment, which presents how a country's national security could question its human right. 

The human right is the first subjet to be damanged in national security situations.  IRI kills, tortures Iranians and tries to destroy Persian pride because of the national security and stability of IRI.  Are we suppose to give IRI a damn right?  I believe the security is an excuse for France in this case.

Hijab is not illegal in France, Burka is.

The woman most likely knew the law and chose to break it and then created a scene.

The same woman still has many more rights in France than she does under any Islamic government . 

She can also not walk fully naked without being faced with authorities. 

Such extremisms have nothing to do with freedom. 

Ali Jan and Divenh azia:

Ali jaan, since you are using logic rather then emotions;

I agree completely that police is not breaking any law in here and merely enforcing the law that people have chosen. My argument is that just because it is LAW, does not make it RIGHT. Otherwise we will have not much to complain about all the [unjust] laws that exist in Iran, including the force hejab.

I see nothing but hypocrisy to condemn forced hejab in Iran and condone forced de-hejab in France.

Last point is that vast majority of arguments given here (as comments) are based on prejudice and if a fraction of such recommendation gets applied here in the US, many of us would be outcast and possibly outlawed. Should they make chelokabab un American and therefore outlawed?

Divaneh Aziz:

Your argument [equal rights] actual works against the point your trying to make. Any of these women can technically argue that I do have full rights under French system and therefore the full hejab is based on my own choosing and not forced on me. And there is already plenty of law against forced hejab by husband if they want to exercise that.

Lastly, they could have made the law such that if hejab was/is forced on them then the enforcer (husband) should get punished if the intention truly was to protect women's rights.

This unjust law was meant to satisfy the right-wing portion of the society only by infringing and on the expense of the [very very] minority.

'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

فرانسه

Well said Ali P

The IRI forces its culture on Iranian people. France is a democracy where French culture is the norm by popular demand. Not by imposition of some Mullah gang against will of her own native population.

Mehrdad Jaan

You are arguing the case against France and the police as if these women are some exotic birds in a zoo that have some special needs and we need to cater to that.

I know women and you know women. Next time you are in the company of a bunch of women, pull out a blanket and cut out 2 holes (for the eyes) and ask them who wants to wear the blanket over their heads for the next few hours in 100 degree weather.

We are talking about these women as if they are some strange creatures and have special needs. They are human beings like us. Do you really believe that they want to be covered in that burka?

.......

Well-said! Divaneh!

Your post is concise and spot on!