Misc

VPK jan,

"We have them right here; right now. From IIC to Iran Secular we have the new thinkers. And we are not going to remain silent. Not more worshiping fake intellectuals".

Since you were rejecting Soroush and his colleagues alike as a whole, I got the impression you might have a solution to fill the vacuum. Generally the one who voice his/her objection has also the solution "to how" in specific.

Midwesty

Think for us. Generate something that make us think. I am not talking
about becoming even an intellect, just something to make us think.

It is not my job to think for you. That is your job! Best I am able to do is to put out my ideas.We need to all share ideas choosing the best after long debates.

Becoming an intellectual thinker is not an over night phenomenon.

So? No one claimed to do so over night. We work on it all our lives. I have been working on it for years. 

Go ahead VPK

Think for us. Generate something that make us think. I am not talking about becoming even an intellect, just something to make us think.

Becoming an intellectual thinker is not an over night phenomenon.

Khar

an old Ideologue of IRI who for 30 years have dumped Islamic Satanic cultural revolution on Iranians and Iranian society with help of another old Chrik-Tudehie Namazkhoon! I say they belong to the archives of history.

Well spoken. Indeed we do not need another IRR. We owe Islam nothing. The cultural genocide was a typical Marxist Islamic gift. Oh they are so superior and know so much. They want to "supervise" us commoners: no thanks.

Iranians need new breed of thinkers we deserve better!!!

We have them right here; right now. From IIC to Iran Secular we have the new thinkers. And we are not going to remain silent. Not more worshiping fake intellectuals.

He is the man!

The father of green movement, another arrow into the eyes of enemies of Iran who want only the destruction of our beloved land by all means!

But Dr. Soroush, don't get the wrong impression, we'll kick your ass if you are to deviate too.

Funny is that the Islamic Intelligenstia took refuge in UK ;0)

From Soroush to another IRI cultural advisor during the Khatami years who now lives in London, they all seem to have found a safe haven in a Constitutional Monarchy which is Great Britain.

Maybe not so surprising after all ...

The Queen of England is by Definition a Velayateh Fagih in that she is the head of the Anglican Church of England. A Tradition that goes back to King Henry XVIII who parted from the Catholic Vatican Church of Rome in order to be able to divorce from his Catholic Wife and marry Anne Bolyne.

So the Anglican Church was basically created based on a purely political decision rather than a spiritual quest.

It has had it's advantages at least for the clerical establishment for it allowed Clerics to marry and in recent years female Priests have been Ordained ( they too can be married), which is seen as impossible in Catholic circles where only Nuns ( with no specific theological role) can take part in the clerical establishment.

The major difference with Iran today is that the British Monarch has no political power and as such even her role as head of church has no consenquence or influence on the political decisions of the government of the elected Prime Minister ( which the Queen only names symbolically after he or she has been elected).

Therefore in England like in all other Democratic countries including the French Republic there is a Clear Separation of Powers between the Executive and Legislative but also Great Britain is clearly a Secularist State because the Separation of Church and State exists de facto.

Yet The Queen of England can be regarded as a Powerless Velayeteh Fagih.

This is Unique to the British Monarchy and inexistent in other European Constitutional Monarchies mainly because most are of Catholic heritage and therefore spiritually dependant on the Vatican which can at times interfere in the decisions of a given monarch or Prince or Princess' decision to divorce or re marry.

For instance Princess Caroline of Monaco who has divorced from her first husband after a catholic marriage ceremony pleaded for years to have her second marriage to be recognized by the Pope. A demand that was finally accepted by John Paul II. Her second husband died in an accident and she remarried one more to the German Prince of Hasbourg. She is now currently in the process of divorcing with him too due to incompatible behaviors. So if she is to re marry she will certainly have to ask the new Pope's benediction ( which she will most probably ignore ).

Same thing for the daughter of the King of Spain the Princess Infanta Elena who also divorced from her husband.

I do not know if this is also the case for North European Monarchies like Sweden, Netherlands or Denmark which are more or less influenced by Anglican and Protestant Traditions.

But in all cases the Vatican or the Anglican or Protestant clerical establishments have no say in the Political sphere. Their influence remains limited unless they wish to run for office or Parliment in a given politcal party. But the Religioun Institution remains outside the Political Arena because of the Secularist nature of all governments in Western European Democracies.

So the question today which interests me is the following:

What role do these Islamic Reformists and Intelligenstia wish to play in a future Democratic Society like Iran. Whether it becomes a Constitutional Monarchy or a Secular Republic ?

Iran's Shi'it Tradition contrasts greatly with Catholicism in that it does not really have a head of church be it like the Pope in Rome or the Orthodox Catholic Supreme Spiritual Leader.

This was basically an invention of the Islamic Revolution with Khomeiny's decision to create that role of Velayateh Fagih to establish his own Turbaned Dynasty's enduring legacy in a bid to "moralize" the political decision makings submitted to the approval of this new entity called the Velayateh Fagih. His initial "Crown Prince" was Ayatollah Montazery who was then dismissed for today's ZAHAK Ali Khamenei in an internal Coup so to speak.

This proves that the entire concept of the Islamic Republic is actually a New Caliphat or Islamic Empire aimed at replacing what was the Iranian Monarchy which maintained the Unity of Iran under different dynasties despite the Arab Invasion that "Islamicized" Iranian society 1400 years ago without achieving to impose the Arab language to Iranians ( unlike other conquered nations like neighboring Iraq or equally Ancient land like Egypt both of which speak Arab today) nor eradicate the pagan traditions of Ancient Persia such as Nowrooz or other celebrations and traditions dear to Iranians for more than 25 centuries far older than Islam's precence in Iran.

So what real legitimacy does this so called "Republic" and "Turbaned Dynasty" have in our land other than a dark paranthesis not to say a historical Error ?

If in nearly all Muslim nations run by Monarchs, the latters all claim to this day to be direct decendants of the Prophet Muhamed, In contrast Iranian Kings claimed that ancestory either in the person of Shi'it Prophet Ali or simply claimed to have be chosen by Allah in order to rally the Shi'it clergy in acknowledging their legitimacy as well as those of their muslim subjects:

Shah in Islamic summit (1969)

Shah At Religious Shrine

However The Iranian Kings ( including under the Pahlavis) never played a Religious Role in Iranian society other than receiving clerics at Court or attending Prayers on religious hollidays. As a matter of Fact the Shah's self proclaimed title of "Arya Mehr" was an attempt to relegate himself to the Zoroastrian Tradition prior to Islam. It did not stop him to go on the Hajj and pray to Allah and at the same time carry a Sword with the Zoroastrian God Farvahar when parading in his military Uniform at Court or at the Parliment.

KING OF KINGS: Mohamed Reza Shah Pahlavi's Tribute to Iran's Past Kings and People (Nowruz 1977)

Far from being a Paradox it was actually a very logical behavior to Iranian kings who since the times of Cyrus the Great were seen as the guardian of Religious Rights equally visitng Orthodox Armenian Churches as well as Jewish synagogues or going to Pray in Mosques.

Shah welcomes Pope (Pahlavi Era)

Armenian commemorative coin (Pahlavi Era)

Gold coin: Jewish  (Pahlavi Era)

Bahai family (Pahlavi Era)

Zoroaster commemorative coin (Pahlavi Era)

So Iranian Kings were simply seen as Protector of All IRanian Faiths and their subjects irrelevant of their religious or ethnic backgrounds.

ROYALTY AND THE PEOPLE: Farah Pays Respect to Baloutch Sunni Minority (1970's)

ROYALTY AND THE PEOPLE: Shah meets Kurdish Representatives (1948)

ROYAL CHRISTMAS: Shahbanou Visits Church in Rezaiyeh (1970's)

This is why Iranian Kings and Queens were respected as symbols of National Unity within the ethnic and religious diversity of Iran while transcending the religious spectrum of the nation at large.

Something that the Velayeteh Fagih has not been able to do precisely because it represents Just It's Shi'it Muslim citizens while suppressing all other minorities be them religious or ethnic:

Trial of Seven Baha’i Leaders by the Islamic Republic

HISTORY OF VIOLENCE: Vendetta Against Anglican Bishop in Iran (1980)

Iranian Christian: Nasser Lotfi

HISTORY OF VIOLENCE: Pulitzer Prize Photo of Rebels Executed by Iran's Revolutionaries (1979)

This may explain the rising tensions over the years under the Islamic Republic which seem to inflict Iranian Azeris today ,

Members of Iran's Azeri minority feel Iranian pressure  (bbc) 

as much as the Kurds or Baloutchis which has been largely moderated under the Pahlavi Kings which alas under this theocracy is jeapordizing Iran's Territorial Integrity and National Unity.

It is for this reason that ANY COMPARISON between the SHAH and a VELAYATEH FAGIH is ABSURD. Particularly when it comes to the cliches used by these Revolutionaries in justifying the Revolution as a Struggle Against "Estebdad".

A Secular Republican could indeed argue against the Shah of Iran or the Monarchy's so called History of "Estebdad" ( But could be reminded that Persepolis was not built by Slaves but Payed workers and craftsmen from all over the Empire) But NOT a Religious Intellectual.  

So the Question remains: Now that these so called Reformists are calling for the abandonment of the Velayeteh Fagih Status, then What the F...CK did These Religious ANN TELLECTUALS Want or Wanted in the First Place ? ;0)

They are caught within a contradiction which I can feel empathy with given the difficulty of having to realize that all they have been fighting for all these years was nothing but Smoke !

It must be very hard to wake up dissillusioned by an ideology they helped create only to realize that it was all wrong very much like the ex communists when they realized how much the Russian or Chinese Revolution had gone wrong with Stalin and Mao.

I woundn't want to be in their shoes today ...

I suppose they are having a great deal of guilt and confusion to cope with themselves and their likeminds not to say sleepless nights regretting that History will remember them as collaborators of a FAUSTIAN PACT with the DEVIL which brought about the Most Rulthless and UN-IRANIAN regime to have ruled Iran in it's entire history... 

May Their God Forgive Them. That is the Best I can wish for their poor guilt ridden souls.

My Humble Opinion,

DK

عبدالکریم سروش :با رفراندوم اختیارات ولی فقیه حذف شود

//www.roozonline.com/persian/news/newsitem/ar...

"Charlatans at work ", to perpetuate the crappy system .

    By keeping the content and changing the form . ( HEFZE MOHTAVA VA TAGHYEERE ZAHER )

    to ONLY change the saddle of the donkey ( FAGHAT PALANE KHAR RA AVAZ KONNAND) .

   No use decorating or painting the house if it is all in ruins .

   ( KHANEH AZ PAY BAST VIRANAST) ( KHAJE DAR BANDE NAGHSHE EYVANAST )

     Iranians digar khar nemishavand . Go set this trap somewhere else ( BORO IN DAAM JAYE DEGAR NEH )

Khodeti !

To think they can fool Iranians with this sort of Islamist charlatanism, Islamist Liars including elitist charlatan Ali Shariati imbued Islamist nuke lobbyist got another think coming. Khodeti 

we need secular

we need secular democracy. so long as their an ounce of religion in government the mullahs will step in and say " you need us because we have a Monopoly on Quranic Interpertation and so we will "advise" you what to do O' Stupid People Of Iran "  And so we are back to square 1. I agree that this islamic heresy khomeini introduced in 1972 called "wilayat faqhi" will end but with it's demise it must be replaced with secularism.   Anything less will leave the government doors open for the mullahs and u give them an inch of space in goverment and they will take 100 yards !!!

Mammad

I used direct quotes from Soroush . I would like to see how you can define the sentences to have any indication of seperation of religion and government!!:

 کافی است ما قوانینی بنویسیم که با قطعیات و ضروریات اسلامی منافات نداشته باش

 So in this proposed government of Soroush, there supposedly will be a supervising Islamic body that determines if the laws are  in conflict with Islam ? correct?! Who will control that the written laws are in accordance to Islam? Is this separation of religion and state?!!!!! 

and then he continues: 

 ضمن اینکه می توان در همه‌ اینها کسب اجتهاد کرد. جامعه دینی بنابر خواست اکثریت دینداران هویت و شکل خواهد گرفت 

which means we will need ayatollahs to do "Ijtihad" to approve the laws ! and then he says "Religious Society will form based on demands of the religious majority"

He can say one thing but deliver another and this is EXACTLY what was done 30 years ago in the name of Islamic Republic and its constitution and now he has re-wrapped same nonsense with new terminology ! (lakposht ro rang kardeh mikhad jaaye volkswagen befrooshe!)

He can call seculars to join him, he can claim he is for seperation of religion and state but then when it comes to his prescriptions for it the fox's tail sticks out.

I didn't make up these words. These are his most recent words! So it doesnt matter what he has claimed for past 10 years, an "Islamic Republic" without Vali Faghih is still "Islamic" Republic!

As for Sourosh : If he talks like a duck and walks like a duck, you will have a hard time selling him as a pigeon!  

                          Visit: www.iransecular.org

David ET

Your opinion is respected - and I mean that. But, you probably did not understand what I said.

1. What I meant was: Soroush has been advocating the separation of religion and government for at least 10 years. So, interpreting what he said as "pokhtan aash-e degar" that you propose he is doing is outdated and wrong, simply because Soroush, at least in this respect, has an indisputed record. So, my facts are straightened. Perhaps, paraphrasing yourself, I should say, "get your understanding of what I said straightened."

2. Then, I said: Other things that he has said, are only his opinion and he is entitled to them. You and others want to reject them, so be it. Just as he is entitled to his opinion, so are also you.

3. By "not being in his league" I meant that he has studied the issue of religion and politics much much much deeper than you, and he is recognized world-wide for it, regardless of how you or I view him. So, it is in this sense that you are not in his league - in terms of the depth of his studies.

4. The rest of you whom jumped on what I said: You are all entitled to your opinion. That is fine with me.

No one asked anyone to believe anything. You do not want to believe a "criminal" like Soroush, do not.

Mammad

My quetion is why should we or (need to) believe...

an old Ideologue of IRI who for 30 years have dumped Islamic Satanic cultural revolution on Iranians and Iranian society with help of another old Chrik-Tudehie Namazkhoon! I say they belong to the archives of history. Iranians need new breed of thinkers we deserve better!!!

Even 30 years ago people of Iran said no to Veliat-Vaghih and died or prisoned for it, but it was with help of characters like these two it was shoved up our collective ass!

Event information

This is an excerpt of the Q/A period following a talk Dr. Soroush gave on February 8, 2010 at a gathering at London University in memory of Ayatollah Montazeri and Mehdi Bazargan.  Others who also spoke were Farrokh Negahdar (formerly of Cherik hay e fadaee e khalgh) and journalist Massoud Behnoud.

Here are all he parts to Dr. Soroush's lecture:

Part 1:  //www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDSRQrJhmYw

Part 2:  //www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j6a7iXIa4k

Part 3:  //www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-LY1Ldx3bw

Part 4:  //www.youtube.com/watch?v=566BEhKG1kk

Well said David

Get your facts straight. BTW: I am very glad I am not in the same league as Soroush!

Well said. 

Mammad: most of us are honored not to be in the same league as Soroush. We are not criminals unlike him . We are not Islamic fanatics. I would be horrified to be in the same league as that nut now scrambling to save the abomination of IRR. .

Mammad

The interview with Sourosh is BRAND NEW and is on top of the roozonline page TODAY. Get your facts straight. BTW: I am very glad I am not in the same league as Soroush!                        

 Visit: www.iransecular.org

I agree with Anahid

Soroush was one of leaders of cultural revolution.  He is responsible for thousands of university students being thrown out of university and thousands not being able to go to university in Iran because of being deemed bad Moslems by him and likes of him.

The cultural revolution was cultural genocide. People like Soroush should be tried not followed. We are not so desperate for intellectuals to follow his kind of garbage. Any person involved in the cultural genocide should be put to trial. They should be permanently barred from any political activity in Iran. These people are criminals not to be trusted. 

The days when we listened to their BS is long past. He belongs to the past; future belongs to us.

VPK

Is that Faroukh Negahdar on the left?

What is that Tudehie Namazkhoon doing there? I've heard he has fully converted to Islam these days! :-)

David ET

With all due respect, your views of Soroush are wrong. The man has been advocating separation of religion and government for at least 10 years. Some of the quotes are outdated, while there is nothing wrong with others. He has every right to express his opinion, unless of course you know that he is influential, and therefore are afraid of him.

I know that you are "drafting" a new constitution for a secular Iran. It is a useful exercise. But, please, do not get carried away with it. You and Soroush are not in the same league.

Mammad

I don't like him since he was involved with cultural revolution

Soroush was one of leaders of cultural revolution.  He is responsible for thousands of university students being thrown out of university and thousands not being able to go to university in Iran because of being deemed bad Moslems by him and likes of him.  I don't trust him and what you quoted from him shows that he really has not changed enough to be accepted by progressive forces in Iran.

Beware of Sourosh and his "Religious Plularism" !!!!!!!!!

Soroush and alike are cooking another dangerous Aash for Iranians!! 

Also in his interview with roozonline he has suggested referendum to remove Supreme Leader position from constitution (maintaining guardian council etc) and therefore maintaining Islamic Republic !

He is also "religious democracy as opposed to religious dictatorship". Here are some excerpts.

Anyway Iranians must be very careful with the new hat that is being designed for them by so called religious intellectuals! Here are scripts of his most recent interview posted today on roozonline:

با رفراندوم اختیارات ولی فقیه حذف شود

اگر ما میتوانیم از استبداد دینی سخن بگوییم، پس می توانیم از دموکراسی دینی هم سخن بگوییم

دموکراسی دینی هم به همین اندازه امکان دارد؛ عده‌ای به نام دین و ابزار دین و بنا به تکلیف دینی بکوشند تا در کشور خودشان یک نظم دموکراتیک برپا کنند

دموکراسی دینی هیچ تفاوتی با دموکراسی ندارد و تنها چون مسئولیتش بر عهده دینداران است میتواند نامش دموکراسی دینی باشد. در یک دموکراسی دینی حداکثر سعی میشود قوانینی که با قوانین قطعی دینی منافات دارند به تصویب نرسند؛ 

کافی است ما قوانینی بنویسیم که با قطعیات و ضروریات اسلامی منافات نداشته باشد؛ ضمن اینکه می توان در همه‌ اینها کسب اجتهاد کرد. جامعه دینی بنابر خواست اکثریت دینداران هویت و شکل خواهد گرفت و فرهنگ دینی آن باعث تمایز با دیگر جوامع است 

"Religious Pluralism", "Religious Democracy", "Islamic Republic without Vali Faghih", are all other names for what we already have which is a government that forces religion on others one way or another.  Beware of this man and his repackaged dangerous theories!

                        Visit: www.iransecular.org