The Persians: Engineering an Empire

History Channel documentary

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Part 2:



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Part 5:

25-Mar-2009
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Concerned, Jakarta, and MRX: Thank you

by Anonymous Farhad (not verified) on

I am trying to counter Mr. Ganji's argument that we should reinvent the "islamic" republic! From my perspective, it is not hard to see that this dog won't hunt! Unfortunately Islam is full of hypocrisies and deceits and cannot provide any blue print for moving forward beyond where we are. That has always been the case from the early days of islam, however people have been either forgetful, idealistic about their religion, or simply uninformed about history. People had not seen islam in action for some time until 1979. Now we know that the best that we could achieve under islamic rule is exactly where we are and what is in front of us after 30 years of devotion to islamic republic.

Qoran says: acquiring knowledge is obligated by every male and female ("Talabol elm farizato ala moleme val moslema")! Well, tell that to taliban who have been setting schools to fire with little girls inside.

Qoran says: there is no obligation in religion ("La ekraha fed-din")! Well tell that to IRI who have been expelling and hanging bahai's, denying jews governmental jobs, and denying Zoroastrians inheritance.

Qoran says: god is forgiving and kind ("arrahmano varrahim"). Well tell that to tens of thousands of iranian youths who were executed without due process, some for crimes as minor as insulting ayatollah khomeini.

...


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Anon. Farhad

by Concerned-Iranian (not verified) on

هزار افرین بر شما ای مرد بزرگ...به راستی ما راروشن کردید دوست گرامی... دورود فراوان...


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Farhad good job

by jakarta_ (not verified) on

Good reply Farhad, that is what I was trying to convey but I don't have your eloquence, thank God you do! You are right, Iranians, like any people in the world, need an identity, need heroes, need legends, etc to ground their identity and self-esteem. The leftists like dabashi, inc (this payam guy even quoted his book) want us to forget our past and identity and just think of iran as a hodge-podge of different ethnic groups - yes we have diff ethnic groups, but we all have a shared heritage!! We lived together back then and we should now and in the future. The Qashqais who are a Turkish tribe, new comers to iran (at least 1000 years after the PErsian empire) are hte most staunch defenders of "Persian" culture...they were the ones who protected Takht Jamshid from Ayatollah Kholkhol's plan to destroy it.


MRX1

Anonymous Farhad

by MRX1 on

you  said it best.


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Ancient Iran Matters...

by Anonymous Farhad (not verified) on

For a group of people to survive these days, it should form a nation, have self-esteem, get educated, and care for the country.

Today's iran and iranians have none of those. For those who have visited iran, it is easy to find that IRI really does not care about the country of iran or its past, rather they care about nation of islam, retention of power, and control of wealth.

Neither do iranians have any self-esteem. The same iranians when immigrate to the west are at least as successful as any other nation, yet they miserably fail in their own country to do anything right. They are often rude, back stabbing, petty thieves, and incompetent in their jobs. They follow the lines of the government in viewing the country as a set up table from which they should fill their pockets while they can without any respect for rule of law or morality. Almost everyone is unhappy but none tries to look into mirror to see where that unhappiness is coming from. These are unpleasant facts.

A nation once proud and achiveing (well beyond militaristic features that we know as recent researchers have shown), became a second class citizen in their own country after the invasion of islam having to pay heavy taxes. From being rostam and gord-afarid and taking pride in being iranian to calling themselves Gholam-Ali, Gholam-Hossain, and taking pride in being slaves (nokar) of dead Arabs or their representatives. From endearing a god of light and prosperity to praying to a God who demands total obedience to him and the Caliph and threatens you with all sorts of eternal burning in hell at each turn. From celebrating occasions of connection to nature and time as in Mehregan and Sadeh to mourning for loss of long-dead Arab Gholdors in Ashura and Tasoua. Iranians simply lost their will to succeed as long as they trick Allah to a fake obedience. As a mulla once said, one should not bribe and should not charge interest on lent money, but that is where I come into play so I can tell you how to bribe or charge interest in an islamically legal manner. Killing is forbidden unless (s)he is mofsedo-fel-arz as decreed by a representative of Emam, and so on.

Cyrus the Great's deeds were major coup in his time when the norm was to destroy, burn, and enslave as Ashurbanipal or Nebuchadnezzar did around his time, or Changiz, Tatar, Hitler, or Turks (as in Armenian genocide) did in recent history. Yes he fought and conquered, but one can argue that without that Iran would not have existed as she would have been conquered by other nations. Only few decades later, Greeks attacked Ionia - part of Persian Empire in Asia minor - and set the city to fire with its residents "within". That motivated Xerxes to launch the Marathon battle that led to burning of an "emptied" greek city. That was the extent of Persian brutality.

As for the term Persian and Persia and sensitivity of some to these connotations, one should not forget that Persian and Persia does not relate to Fars province exclusively, but it is the correct English translation of Farsi and Iran. In other words, calling iranians persians does not imply any exclusion of Iranian minorities. The concepts of racism are new and western concepts that historically did not exist in iran as iran from birth was an amalgamation of various tribes. At early times, about half of iran were Persians, the other half Medes, with southern parts occupied by Elamites and Sumerian, racially neither Semite nor Aryan, all respected and protected by the kings, and intermarried.

So if we want to free ourselves from the chain of an imposed fake religion that has betrayed us for the past 30 years, we need to take pride in our past that we could if we wanted to, since the experiences of the past 30 years provide no positive guidance whatsoever as to how we should improve the country. In fact, besides the crowd who detest anything iranian-at-core that is ruling iran today, the youth often grab any history book about pre-islamic iran out of bookshelves of bookstores. Once popular right after revolution, religious books such as those of dr. shariati or mafateeh, now gather dust and stay on the bookstore shelves indefinitely.

Further, Iran was not an empire only. It was a center of science, technology, literature, and arts. We are less familiar with these aspects of Persian Empire as, as in other areas, best research is being done by non-iranians to discover those achievements. Even after Islam, after some 200 years of void following numerous burnings of iranian libraries by invading armies of islam, once more secular Caliphs like Haroun and Mamoun were in charge, iranians started to flourish once again and translated barely remaining Pahlavi and Greek texts from pre-islamic era that invading fundamentalist Arabs found unnecessary to safeguard.


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Happy birthday Zoroaster

by Anonymous9999 (not verified) on

Tavalodat kojasteh bad Zartoshth Graamy.


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The idea of human rights was

by Payam S (not verified) on

The idea of human rights was not established or introduced by Cyrus, but merely understood and declared. Even with the standards of 500 BC, there is no reasonable argument that could claim that all civilizations and peoples of that time were brutes. There were people that did not care for expansion and empire building. But now I am speaking of the civil society of that era, not state apparatuses, to which Cyrus belonged. There is a good argument that among different states and kingdoms, Cyrus was a visionary and a moderate but this argument is confined to the character and nature of states and not to humanity as a whole. I do recognize Cyrus' significance as a statesman, but not as a person. An average person, even in those days, did not embark upon conquest, but merely working and feeding the family or the tribe.

I remember reading a document, the source of which I do not remember, that stated it was in fact due to public out-cry and resistance against the monarchy which led Cyrus into declaring the Bill of Rights. Yes it is extraordinary for its time, but let us not forget the struggles of average people within the kingdom and the empire.

As far as us (Persians) being better than Arabs, I do not think it is a reasonable assessment to judge the progress of one civilization against the other. Many factors such as geographic location, climate and terrain, abundance or lack thereof of food and nourishment, connection routs to other parts of the world, etc. come to play which in reality can limit or nourish a group of people. The Arabs for example, were confined to the harsh environment of the desert terrain and that dictated the reality of their existence. But they also made enormous contributions to the world of science, mathematics and philosophy. The advancement of the Persians was not due to their kings but to their people (may I add that much of the progress made was due to the people that Persians conquered and not only to Persians themselves). The reason we admire our kings, is that the scientists, intellectuals and historians who inform us of the past, were in the apparatus of the state and were SUBJECTS to the king or the royal families. That is the only reason.
I see the term 'Persian' as a term which excludes much of the people who contributed to the advancement of the world. Those that were conquered by the Persians became part of their empire, by force or not, doesn’t matter, but they had their own identity and intellect, and it was not Persian, but simply human.

I enjoyed these discussions. Respect.

Peace,
Zendebad bashariat,

Payam


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To Payam

by jakarta on

Yes Cyrus was a conqueror...but do not judge him by the standards of our time. At his time politics anywhere in the world consisted of conquering enemies and collecting tribute. Concepts of democracy, human rights etc didn't exist at the time in teh way we envision them, so how can you blame him for not embracing them? Given that environment Cyrus was definitely the champion of his time. And given that environment he was relatively tolerant as well. We are not saying that Cyus the Great or the Persian Empire is something to be imitated in today's world. We have progressed as humans. Cyrus, whether you like it ornot, was the founder of Persian/Iranian civilization and we have every right to revere him as apart of our history while at the same time realizing that the world has changed and we don't need to imitate him. Egyptians have every right to be proud of the pyramids in their own backyards even though they were built by slaves for the ego of some pharaoh. Cruelty, slavery, imperialism are apart of all peoples' heritages and thats the part we dont continue to uphold, but we can still have an admiration for the accomplishments of our ancestors.

And when you say "No God no masters" you should be careful what you wish for you little Mazdaki you ;)


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Payam jaan

by Concerned-Iranian (not verified) on

You wrote:

"And some of our brothers and sisters who are appalled by the fact that the western media portrays us as Arabs and barbarians is a sign of arrogance and racism. We claim to be Persian when in fact most of us are not even Fars or Pars. This 'title' only gives privilege to middle-class Tehranis who, for the most part, live outside of Iran and who speak Farsi with a Tehrani accent and claim superiority over other ethnicities in Iran; such as the Azeries, Baluchis, Kurds, Arabs, etc. Hence, much of the brutality of the Shah as well as the IRI was and is still unleashed on our non-Fars brothers and sisters outside of Tehran."

I can understand some of your points and dis-enchantments about some of us so called "Tehranis" in your view !

I just wanted to clarify somethings about my own previous comment here that perhaps caused you to go out of your way and start bashing us...

Look first of all, It's an undeniable fact that Ancient Persian Empire, Kings, People and Culture promoted and practiced :

Pendaare Neek, Goftare Neek and Kerdare Neek. Furthermore, They achieved an unimaginable victory in history of mankind by declaring the First documented Human Rights! Yes, my friend Those were the Persian King , people , politics, culture and philosophy...

The statements above is what any true Persian/Iranian (including you and me) regardless of our Ethnicity, religion or background should obey by and follow! I may have come across as arrogant by my comment about rags on Arabs heads and I apologize if it came across in a racist way, but you can not deny Proven Historical Facts either!

Now, my final point is the Arab/Muslims never achieved the same progress and values and accomplishments as ancient Persian /Iranian did in their history and legacy!

Therefore, Ancient Persians (Iranians)were not the same as Arab/Muslims people and must not be portrayed as the same people with same Beliefs, culture, history and even clothing on any current Historical books or programs either...

Apple and Orange, they both may be good , but they have a different substance and taste!

That is NOT a racist comment or statement, that is the FACT!

Peace and Love,

Zendeh Baad IRAN


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Dear HMN,

by Payam S (not verified) on

Dear HMN,

Thank you for derogatorily labling me as Esfehani/Jewish. In a way, you are expressing the racist sentiment which I previously stated. I am no Esfehani nor a Jew. And I do not take shame in being called one. But I did feel that your statement was quite childish and unreasonable.

I was not criticizing the director or the program. I was making a critique of the "Persian Pride" mentality which feeds into our racist and jingoistic attitudes.

You said: "Other than that history, victory and just being great is great. If you can't understand the point you are very unlucky."

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps I'm the unlucky one.

And I was not being 'bitchy' (beeadab), merely critical. I admit, Cyrus was great, he was a great general and a great king. Only because he executed his duty as a king (invasion, conquest, and expansion) impressively well, though he did offer liberty to his SUBJECTS. And this is the point, he was a KING with SUBJECTS.

No Gods, No Masters.

Peace,
Payam


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Payam

by HMN (not verified) on

Dear Payam,
If you open your eyes and stop talking, you'll see this program has been made by "khareji's" and doesn't even have a persian director.

If your Esfehani/Jewish blood got insulted by the point the great cyrus let you live, that's something slse.

Other than that history, victory and just being great is great. If you can't understand the point you are very unlucky.

Hell to the fake peace signature at the end. You didn't have the tolerance of seeing something and not being bitchy about it.


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What's the big deal!

by Payam S (not verified) on

So what! We had a damn empire. So did the Romans, the Chinese, the British, the Nazis, the French, and the Soviets. So does the United States. Is that really something to be proud of?

Iranians (Persians) love to incite and stimulate their nationalistic, jingoistic and at times racist sentiments by absurd claims that Cyrus freed the Jews or we exercised tolerance or we were and are different from Arabs etc. I'm sorry, but I don't believe any damn king or empire is worth worshiping and admiring. They are all egoistic parasites who feed off the land, labor and lives of others for their own unquenchable thirst for luxury.

Even Cyrus, who perhaps had the best record of all kings, was nothing but a conqueror and, at best, an imperialist. Who told him to conquer in the first place, nevertheless to show mercy? As Professor Hamid Dabashi points out, Cyrus freed the Jews to the same degree as George Bush freed the Iraqis. This is nonsense.

And some of our brothers and sisters who are appalled by the fact that the western media portrays us as Arabs and barbarians is a sign of arrogance and racism. We claim to be Persian when in fact most of us are not even Fars or Pars. This 'title' only gives privilege to middle-class Tehranis who, for the most part, live outside of Iran and who speak Farsi with a Tehrani accent and claim superiority over other ethnicities in Iran; such as the Azeries, Baluchis, Kurds, Arabs, etc. Hence, much of the brutality of the Shah as well as the IRI was and is still unleashed on our non-Fars brothers and sisters outside of Tehran.

Get over the Persian Empire. It does not exist anymore, and it should not. In fact, no empire is to be the source of pride for any great people.

Nod Gods, No Masters.

Peace,
Payam


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Happy Birthday to Zoroaster

by Well wisher (not verified) on

My best wishes to all Iranians Zoroastrians on the occasion of Zoroaster's birthday.


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Irandoust, You are Right...

by Concerned- Iranian (not verified) on

Despite some historical facts about Persians in this program, It is a shame to see how (the Misguiding, corrupt and bias) Western Media and some Western historians are! They always try to underestimate and offend us Persians/Iranians!!! They (indirectly)associate and portray Ancient Persians as Arabs and Moslems with a rags tied around their heads!!!!(For true historical images, all you need to do is to see the remains and evidences in Persepolis...)

You may see this as a minor mistake or detail, but believe me they do it on purpose! I wrote letters of concern and complain to History Chanel about this few years ago and got no answer in return...)

These minor details along with hundreds of other minor misrepresentations of us, subconsciously brainwashes most viewers (specially the Westerners) about us. It makes viewres to see Persians and Arabs as one entity from the very begining of time, even in the ancient times!

To see an honest difference between Persians and Moslem/Arabs back then, (Besides many historical books in Europe and elsewhere) all you need to do is to look at the remains of Persepolis in Iran. Thank God for that undeniable proof and evidence, Otherwise, the Anti-Iranian entities (all over) work very hard to bring us down and portray us negatively (in general) and thus create Negative opinions among people around the world about us !!! Who owns History Chanel anyway?

True and more accurate Persian History must be told not only to other people but to us Persians too! Only then we can all become enlightened, Free ourselves and promote Peace and Love...


gol-dust

I guess AIPAC didn't oppose to this! God bless Iran!

by gol-dust on

That's what Israel and US are afraid of, our potential to be an empire again, which we don't care for!

Isn't that what Henry Kiisinger said in 1975 when talking about Iran: "We cannot offord another Japan in Asia!" 


MRX1

Az koja be koja

by MRX1 on

From such nobel men and their vision to likes of khomeini and ahmadinejad's.az koja be koja rasidim.


Peykan

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

by Peykan on

"Thus passes the glory of the world..."


ganselmi

I loved Peter Weller in

by ganselmi on

I loved Peter Weller in Robocop and Naked Lunch. The poor guy's been reduced to hosting history channel docs. 


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to "don'tbeafraid"

by Arash78 (not verified) on

Why does it need to be posted everyday?! Mageh maa oghdeyeh hegharat darim?


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It needs to be posted

by don'tbeafraid (not verified) on

It needs to be posted everyday...

Shahrzadi: What are you afraid of???


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this is a great show

by shirazie (not verified) on

It has been on History channel for couple of years.. No BS just historical facts


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Narration is good but the clothes are funny and does not look

by irandoust (not verified) on

like how the Persians dressed.


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Wasn't this posted a few

by Shahrzadi (not verified) on

Wasn't this posted a few times before?