rosie is roxy is roshan

Two goldfish:

Okay, Shirazi, first of all your idea that this website is for one's own government isn't true. It's for whatever interests any Iranian. That's why it has photo essays on Iranian Americans' dogs. So if an Iranian is interested in Somalia's government, they write about that. If Barbados's government, they write about that.

Second of all. it's true,  the majority here lives in "North America" but many live in Astralia and Europe. I think about a third. So the US isn't their government. And then there's a small smattering elsewhere in the world.

In any case I think most people here would find your statement odd that the primary concern here should not be Iran's government (although of course it's not nor should it be the exclusive one..).

Next. I SAID very clearly in my post to you that no one should apologize for anything. When I protest Iraq or Afghanistan or Gaza or shooting of blacks looking for food in flooded New Orleans  (I do) that's a US government issue. When I protest human rights violations in Iran, that's an IRI government issue. and I'm allowed to do that. I have a dear friend who is Ameerican of Austrian birth and she's given the last several years to Darfur. If people don't do these t hings across government borders world-wide there's no hope. That's why there's a UN and Doctors Without Borders.This is a global village. For whatever reason, certain foreign issues strike a chord in different people. So, someone in Belgium may take up the cause of the Australian aboriginals. Someone in Finland takes up Sri Lanka. And that's what makes the future of the global village (which btw hangs by a thread) a viable possibility. So, I gotinterested in Iran. 

Finally, no no no no no no and no! I do NOT ACCEPT THAT ARRESTING TWELVE LEADERS OF THE MIL SIG CAMPAIGN or bludgeoning scores of May Day celebrnts in Tehran recently has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the US. Or EU. That's patronizing to your own people in Iran. What do Bush and Cheney-war criminals both-have to do with the stoning of an adulterer that took place three days ago in Iran? What???

Now, sure, you can go on with the anti-Colonialist arguments and I'm with you all the way. But that has nothing to do with stringing up some kid who deserved an appeal trial with no notice as part of a..puppet show..just a puppet on a string.. Delara was a TOY in a GAME. An INTERNAL IRI game.

when I first came here, I said in the blog, I apologized for IRI a lot...it was always scream US and whisper stonings. A stoning in Rahst.. Blame the US for Imperialism historically. Now...for me to claim the US is responsible for some stoning in Rasht: THaT's colonialism and I'M the colonizer the moment I say it. 

________________________________________

J: well..being a non-Iranian, I'll forgo the strongest language and leave it to you...

AnonFish,

read up the thread, my two long replies, and then skim the blog again, and you will understand. Apologizing in the context of apologism has a very specific meaning. us government? Bush should be tried for war crimes. And your quote of me: I didn't say "has to". I said "should". No one should apologize for anything...it has very specific meaning...

US government? Well IMHO Bush and Cheney should be indicted for war crimes...

mo chara

what exactly are you looking for here?  is this a discussion or a debate... or what?  i just can't figure out where you're going with this.

but i'll jump in very slowly with your comment that "no one ever has to apologize for anything".  i can't disagree with that strongly enough.  i believe specific people in the bush administration owe a huge apology to the american public.  i believe the US government owes apologizes to certain governments and/or individuals for specific actions.  most recently, as discussed on another thread, i believe the US government owes an apology to the iranian people for the shooting down of the iranian civilian plane... etc. etc. 

and in personal relationships as well. 

yes, i believe apologies are absolutely vital.

Follow-up to Rosie

The primary responsibility of individuals should be to hold their OWN governments accountable. As U.S. citizens, that means that the actions of the U.S. government should be our main concern NOT those of the Iranian, Sudanese or Sri Lankan governments. The U.S. government is the Number One warmonger and invader of other countries. The Dear Leader Obama has killed more Afghans and Pakistanis in 4 months than the Devil Ahmadinejad has in 4 years. This is your OWN government doing this in your name and with your tax dollars. Why don't you deal with your own house first before worrying about what other governments are doing? You want to help Iranians? Do it by opposing the U.S. government's support for the terrorists fighting Iran and killing Iranians (e.g. Pejak, Jundollah, Mojahedin, "Ahwazi" bombers, etc). Help Iranians by opposing the U.S. government's sanctions that are intended to cause pain and hardship for the Iranian people. Otherwise, you risk being an apologist for your OWN government, the one government on which you should focus most.

I don't think anyone should ever apologize for anything.

When I protest Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza, I do it on its own terms, against the US or Israeli government. When I portest al-Bashir kicking out all humitarian aid organizations from Darfur in response to the Hague indicting him for war crimes I evaluate it in termsof al-Bashir himself, no in terms of the Hague. The World Court is a very imperfect court to say the least but it has no relationship to Al-Bashir kicking out Save the Childen when there are two million hungry people in Darfur. when I protest delara derabi's execution it is strictly in terms of iRI and has nothing to do with any other government, only iRI no other government's actions are relevanton that thread.

Delara's father turned her in to the IRI legal system in good faith, expecting a fair trial and expecting that according to IRI law she could not be executed, as a minor. delara was use as a pawn in internecine IRI political games as well as in geopolitical games, to prove a point to the 'west". she was the most high profile prisoner internationally except for Roxana Saberi. The girll's initial execution date was stagedfor the day before Roxana's sentencing. It was pure theater for Obama mainly. her sentence was "commuted", then a week later she was hanged to correspond with one of the worst labor purges ever, the beting and imprisoning of about one hundred May day celebrants in Tehran, along with the mmil sig activists who were participating in solidarity with them. delara as also a women's righhts issue for a number of reasons and the mil sig people (twelve of their leaders had recently been arrested) were surely monitoring her carefully. delara was executed without notice early May Day, they were beten and arrested late May Day.

According to IRI law, 48 hours notification is required before an execution. Delara was allowed to call her family right before she was hanged. They took the phone away from her and told her father, We are going to kill your daughter and there is nothing youcan do about it. He has been hospitalized ever since.

 This has nothing to do with Afghanistan, or with anything else. Delara was a toy in a big game the iri government is playing using human rights victims to terrorize domestically and to make internationnal geopolitical statements. Her death was a publicity stunt. A IRI judiciary official came out publicly and said that if the international press had stayed out of it, she could've been saved.

It is noble and good that you are worried about the Afghani children. It is sad that few people here seem to care about the Sri Lankan or Darfurian children andthat when those who do bringit up no one pays attention to them.

Be that as it may, the Sce white rose thread was about Dlara. And by extension about IRI misdeeds ingneral. It has nothing to do with anything else. You could've blogged about the Afghan crisis. it didn't belong there.

SCE was formed to protect the rights of minors specifically convicted of capital crimes allcommitted before they were 18 and having received the death penalty. Their mission is about people who are imprisoned. They are interested in imprisoned minors all over the world but because they are mainly an Iranian group, they focus largely on prisoners within Iran. That is their mission. Their mission is not to protect the children who are victims of war. evry organization has its own focus, otherwise nothing is ccoplished.

The white roses are for Delara. and by extension for other IRI prisoners.And again by extension to protest all IRI human rights violations.

The roses have nothing to do with US or any other countries depredeations elsewhere, whether military or otherise. Nothing. To insinuate that it does defelcts attention from the problem SCE confronts: a vicious lawless ruthless regime within iran. To mtry to move the issue to Afghanistan deflects attention away from the brutal reality of what happened t oDelara and her father, and by extension to what happens every day in Iran.

By deflecting attention it minimizes the gravity of the situation in iR and it is a form of apologism.Apologism by comparison.Aologism by comprison always has the goal and end of deflecting attention from the internal Iranian issue at hand.

It doesn't matter who's a citizen of where. Iran is your own country too as it is for most people here or they wouldn't be here.
yes, I am an Ameerican citizen.No, my country isn't Iran. Or Sudan or Sri Lanka either.

Thanks for replying.

Re: Rosie

Very well put. You hit the nail right on the target.

IRI apologists are constantly using this method in order to divert attention from IRI's crimes in Iran, or in order to justify those crimes.

Take this Shirazi-American character. He is using this technique in your face despite you trying to expose it.

Person A: Why the IRI is torturing political prisoners? It must be stopped.

IRI apologist: Why aren't your protesting US's treatment of prisoners in Guanto? That should be stopped.

Like you said, they have taken away Iranians' autonomy and self-worth more than any foreign country has ever done.

The filth that spews from these disgusting parasites is enough for god to regret he ever created man.

Response to Rosie

Dear Rosie,

I am a U.S. citizen (which is probably true of many, if not most, Iranians on this website). Are you a U.S. citizen? If so, then our government is the U.S. government, NOT the Iranian government. So let me quote:

"To continually evaluate one's own country's government's misdeeds solely in comparison with those of foreign powers, implicitly denies the American people their capacity for autonomy and agency, and is an inverted, internalized neo-Colonialism of the soull (sic)".

Why do some Iranian-Americans keep writing apologias for the U.S. government, i.e. their own government? Can you please answer my question, Rosie?

Okay, you're aware of the common conversation here which

basically in a nutshell boils down to this:

Person #1: There was a stoning in Iran a couple of days ago for adultery (in fact btw there was...). I think IRI is awful.

Person 2; but what about Gaza?

The assumption in this case is that the neo-c|Colonialist, or neo-Imeprialist powers of the "west", spearheaded by the US with its pitbull, Israel, are responsible for terrible depredations against humanity. I agree. The system is often called neo-Imperialsim or neo-Collonialism. The further assumption is that these depredations historically and in the present have been perpetrated upon all "developing" nations, whether through war (en masse killing) or simply through exploitation of resources as with oil in Iran.I agree.  The people whose ideologies are firmly rooted against this system are often called anti-Colonialists or anti-Imperialists. I am one of them.

There is a tendency, implicit or explicit, among anit-Imperialists to evaluate all the internal human rights depredationsof these countries by comparison. Stoning does not equal Gaza, that's a few people, Gaza is millions, so let's talk about Gaza now, more victims there. Underlying assumptions, implcit or explicit, could be, oh, lessee..it all started with British Oil, or Kermit Roosevelt and the coup in 195e, or..France beaming i Khomeini in on tv..usually all of them. so everything that happens in Iran that's BAD is both because of these countries and should only be evaluated in comparison to what those countries do...(of course anything good that happens is Iran's and Iran's alone...which btw, they are...)

so...what about...Gaza? Afghanistan? Iraq?Of course, no one mentions Sri Lanka, Darfur...)

To tell you the truth I have never really seen an "apologist" apologize. What I've seen is basically silence, rationalization, spurious arguments based on false premises (such as IRI is a democracy so let's evaluate the legal proceedings in Delara's case..this typeof apologism also entails lying, conscious or unconscious), and comparison.

Comparison is one of the most common ways of "apologiing" (which really should be called ExCUSING or EXEMPTING from blame..) that I've seen on this website. so that's what I'm talking about here.

If Kermit rRosevelt is responsible for a stoning, or the way Delara was set up is irrelevant because Netanyahu has nukes...or because of white phosphorus use in Gaza, that is denying Iran autonomy and agency. The acts of its government only exist because of and in comparison to some imperialist powers'. and so..that's an inverted neo-Colonialsm. Do you undrstand what I mean?

As for the soul, I am loosely referring to the soul of a nation, or the soul of an individual within that nation, but I'm not talking in the religious sense. I'm talking about depth, autonomy, integrity...

That's what I mean.

Robin,

Can you explain what you mean by "an inverted, internalized neo-Colonialism of the soul."

Thanks in advance,