Khodadad Rezakhani

Hmmm

I think I will again repeat Zinn's sentiment about you. You obviously are not a Jew, and in addition to being a falsifier, are also a racist, and a creatively bigotted one at that too, connecting the word kind to some manner of me implying that all jews are "genetically inclined to exactly that sort of conscience" (to quote your amazingly racist statement). Are you a frustrated Nazi by any chance?

just change what you don't like

Dear Khodadad: that's just Zion for you!

... just change what you don't like to fit your needs! That includes adding and subtracting words!

DW Duke

There is no such thing as a Jewish race. Jews do not constitute a race, they constitute a nation and a culture. Therefore having a state for Jews is no more racist and no different from having a state for Iranians, a state for the French or a state for Americans. Let alone that Israel is actually a state both for Jews, and Arabs and the Druze and others who want to be naturalized citizens of Israel (not easy but certainly possible.) In that sense Israel is more like Switzerland or Canada.
So this is clearly nonsense:
' To begin with it is a form of segregation based on racism.'
and so the entire long "comment" that is based on it falls head down.

[Yawn] didn't we two have this same discussion this time last year?

PS. Nice to see you spelling Yisrael more correctly this time. You are learning, that is good.

Nice try

Here is your quote dear:
'it is obvious that the elderly man was thinking of his kind as certainly being exceptional and special.'
You had earlier implied clearly that the guy was a Jew. hence my quotation of Jew "Kind". Notice where the quotation marks go. It is you who are spinning it.

Anyways, I can say is that it is very good that you are no 'partisan' in this issue! Right!

D.W.

Great commentary. I really think it deserves its own featured blog :-)

As for its content. I do not necessarily disagree but I wish to ask some questions to see how realistic "integration" is "at this point" for the following reasons:

1- The racial issue in US did not have much outside influence while so many interfere in the matter Israel/Palestine from US to Europe to Iran, Syria and list continues

2- What is the statue of limitation on having a nation reclaim their territory? We have none! or what if Mexicans claim to have California back, Russian want Alaska back, Iran asks for Azerbaijan, India for Pakistan and the list continues, I know the examples are not quite the same but in some cases are not quite different either, for example Mexicans were treated as 2nd class citizens for long time in  California...

3- How could the rights of Jews living in the integrated Israel be guaranteed? What if the Arab majority elects Hamas to govern future integrated Israel ?

 The two nation solution at least until some of the hostilities heal may be the only middle ground towards a potential future integration. There have been countries and people who had been separated but over time , themselves found their best interest in re-integration and therefore two state solution may act as a catalyst towards a more permanent solution.

Under the current circumstances and influences , It can be a more realistic step forward from the mess that the two parties have been in.

Actually

Upon re-reading my own writing, it occured to me that there is not a single instance of me using the word jew or even Jewish in the whole thing! I refer to the lady and the gentleman as Iranian, which they certainly were. I am not sure if they were Jewish at all! I also refer to the actor in the current aggression as israel, which indeed is that, a country and a state, and never say jews did this or that.

So, I should again be amazed at where on earth Zion got what he did. Apparently, he is not only a falsifier, but also a pathological lier to boot. Never ceases to amaze me either, when people don't have anything to counter you with, they end up making up stuff. Hmmm

Aziz

Free and sovereign nations have to abide by treaties and conventions to which they become signatories such as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Gevena Convention.  If they violate those treaties then other signatory nations and even privates citizens under certain protocols have the right to bring actions to enforce compliance.  

Just a quick reply

I am not going to defend myself here at all. despite being an idiot, I am not stupid enough not to know that these kinds of statements are not popular with partisans of each side of the conflict. I am not even going to defend myself about the story, which is true, although it might sound like stories told 60 years ago. I have heard this with my own ears and ironically, ended up meeting the gentleman himself later at an event. But no matter.

I will, however, taken offence at being misquoted, or "quoted" for something I did not say. My original writing is above, so:

"Don't you know already that the Jew "kind" as you put it is genetically inclined to exactly that sort of conscience? " (Zion's first comment)

Is completely false, a true falsification of what I said, or I didn't say. Please show me the place where I have "put it" in the form of the "Jew kind" as Zion seems to imply to have quoted me. If you find it, then we can talk. If you don't, then kindly stop making up stuff and take Zinn's advice.

Frustrated with death and destruction

The partition of India in 1947 and dislocation of million of moslems and subsequent heavy toll of death and destruction borne by moslems hardly ever is a topic or raise the tempers anywhere in the moslem news rooms or wire services. Iran considers India its natural ally and sues for favors from New Dehli all the time. (any need to mention orthodox Russia and Chechnya?)

The creation of Israel by the western dominated UN in 1948 seems to have spawned a different type of politics. At least three times the moslem armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan mobilized to erase the new country from the map. In the process of doing so they created miserable conditions for Palestinians but closed their borders to them and housed them in refugee camps. Iranians have treated Afghan refugees better than Arabs their Palestinian brothers.

Those of us who write commentaries and fear no Qassem rockets ripping through our bedroom windows have little right to criticize Israelis. They are a free and sovereign nation and are defending their citizens. Lets be careful not to let latent acquired anti-semitism color our fast judgments.

Two Nation State in Eretz Yisrael

While the two party state seems at first blush to be a solution to the crisis in Israel, it really exacerbates the problem.  To begin with it is a form of segregation based on racism.  Oslo was an attempt to create a two party state but in reality it was a disaster doomed to failure from the outset.  While most writers have focused upon the discriminatory and illegal effect of Oslo upon Jews, few writers have examined the discriminatory and illegal effect upon Arabs. But that discrimination needs to be recognized and addressed. 

Oslo forces the Arabs onto reservations in the same way that the American Indian was forced unto reservations in America. Through Oslo, Gaza will become a Palestinian reservation in the Middle East. While the PA leadership claims to have an interest in a separate Palestinian state, the reality is that the Palestinians seek a return to the land of Medinat Yisrael where they resided before the relocation to modern Palestine.  Disengagement has thrown an already devestated territory into further financial devestation.  The situation will only become worse and it will not give the Palestinians what they truly desire.  The Palestinians seek to become part of Eretz Yisrael and they should be permitted to do so under a fair and equitable government that secures the rights of all people, not just the Jews.  The current so called democracy in Israel does not do this.  

The reason Israelis sought an independent state was to avoid the antisemitism experienced in Europe.  However, by allowing Arabs to remain in Israel, Israelis run the risk of becoming out numbered by Arabs, and in a democracy they then run the risk being outvoted and ultimately losing control of their own government.  This could result in the destruction of the Israeli government and eventually another holocaust. 

Yet, a two nation state is a not a cure for the problem in Israel. It only treats the symptoms.  The problem is racial discrimination that is caused by Israel's attempt to create a democratic system of government. The following examples describe what is really occurring in Israel.

Blacks to the left, whites to the right (Remember the segregated drinking fountains and restrooms in America?)
Indians to the left (onto the reservations), whites to the right                                                                       

Palestinians to the left (onto the reservations of Gaza), Jews to the right

Oslo is a makeshift remedy consisting of discrimination and segregation. Segregation is Oslo’s nearsighted and ineffective solution that will only exacerbate the problem leading to decades of hatred, warfare and blood shed if not the complete annihilation of Israel/Palestine. The alternative to Oslo, which is integration, is the solution to overcoming prejudice and hatred in the Middle East.  Perhaps we can learn from experimentation in the United States on this issue.

In the 1950's, in the United States, discrimination between black people and white people was intense. In many parts of the nation, blacks were not permitted to use the same water fountain as whites. They were not allowed to use the same restrooms or even eat at the same restaurants. At that time, future president John F. Kennedy saw the evil in this system of segregation. He recognized that all men are created equal. In an effort to eliminate racial segregation in the United States, and with the help of Lyndon Johnson, he set out to draft the Civil Rights Act of 1957. He became the first president since Harry S. Truman to call for equal rights for blacks and whites. Indeed, it became a primary platform of his election campaign. The assassination of President Kennedy in 1963 left the equal rights activists feeling defeated and hopeless. Would Lyndon Johnson carry on the fight for equality? To the relief of equal rights supporters throughout the states, President Johnson did carry on the fight against discrimination and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 became the standard for racial equality in America.

After the death of President Johnson, others picked up the scepter to carry forward the fight for racial equality. They recognized that Kennedy was correct in his belief that racial discrimination was evil. They began to develop plans for integrating people of different races with one another. They recognized that only by living side by side, and learning to respect and to care for one another, could racial discrimination be eliminated. Some very wise advocates of equal rights recognized that it was necessary to begin education and cultural integration at a young age. To achieve that objective they developed a program called "bussing." Under this program school children were to be transported by busses to other schools in order to achieve a balanced racial mix in American schools. Similar programs were implemented in other areas of culture with the same objective. These programs were vigorously opposed by the mainstream population in America but they were implemented nonetheless. The result is that today, in America, racial discrimination as it once existed, has been essentially eradicated. Indeed, we just elected a black man as president of the United States.  Clearly there will always be fringe elements that engage in the practice of discrimination in various forms. But for the most part, among Americans, racial discrimination is unacceptable and intolerable.

What is occurring in Israel is the precise opposite of the brain child of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. In part it stems from the notion among some early Zionists that it was necessary to expel Arabs from Palestine and among some Arabs that Jews should not live in their land.  Oslo is a perpetuation of the belief that Jews and Arabs must live separately. 

The following are some of the violations of the United Declaration of Human Rights that would occur if Oslo is reinstated:

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Text omitted

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

          Text omitted

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

         Text Omitted

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

         Text omitted

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

The solution in Israel is not further segregation and discrimination, it is assimilation and accomodation.  The biggest impediment to this is the misinterpretion of the Torah which precludes non-jews from living in Israel.  That issue will be addressed separately.

Free and fair elections!

Q my dear, Israeli leaders come to power with elections too. So did Bush. So did Ahmadinejad. So did Hitler, for that matter. What's the point? It's their actions that matter, not how they came to power.

I could dispute the legitimacy of these "free and fair" elections. But I'm not even going to go there. I will only say Hamas leaders are a bunch of thugs who rose to power thanks to the hopelessness brought about by Israeli policies and decades long occupation.

And you're right, we cannot stop Iranian leaders from expressing their solidarity with Palestinians. But we can question their integrity, we can question their honesty, we can question their idiotic policies. Leaders who silence and jail critics at home, leaders who justify their crimes with Islamic slogans, leaders who do not allow their own people to express themselves freely should not be telling anyone to respect the rights of other people. Respect the rights of your OWN people first, then tell me about how bad Israel is. I know Israel is doing a terrible wrong. But I'm not going to listen to anything coming out of the mouths of IRI leaders.

I condemn what Israel is doing in Gaza, but I have no reason to cheer Iran's policies or terrorism and violence from ANY quarter.

Depends Jahanshah

I wouldn't consider Rabin a hero of peace at all. His policies were a huge failure. What he did was to bring back thugs like Arafat to life, and give them power to do the dirty job. What should have been done was to promote real free thinking liberal elements among Palestinians. The only hope is in this approach, heralded by the likes of Sharansky and it takes time. I would cut much more credit for Sharon actually. He wagered his entire career and dissected the Likud into by withdrawing from Gaza. I know the media images of Rabin and Kennedy's versus that of Sharon, but facts on the ground speak differently.
As for crushing Hamas, depends. It is not a matter of killing ever Hamas leader. It is a matter of destroying their infrastructure, and humiliating the idealist appeal of their entire agenda. The Lebanese "war" with Hizballah was in many ways a fiasco, but in shattering the image of Hizballah for Lebanese people it will prove to have lasting long terms effects for a peaceful future. You could have argued the same about destroying German infrastructure in WWII, but the truth is, nothing is more efficient in destroying ideological-fascitic power structures than humiliating them and rendering them militarily impotent in the eyes of their constituents. It is not a choice we have here. Until truly moderate Palestinian leaders eventually emerge, this kind of defense is necessary. It is not the ultimate solution, only the means to very gradually reaching that point. It is sad, i agree, and it is painful. unfortunately without a true partner, there is no possibility of a meaningful peac.

Barak's offer

Most people of sense would admit that the offer was an exceptionally generous one. So much so that many think it was a good thing Arafat was too stupid to realize it. that however is beside the point. Palestinians could have accepted the offer as it was, and continued to negotiate for many years to come to gradually reach better and better agreements for both sides, if they were at all interested in a two state solution. The importance of Barak's offer and the way it was treated is in demonstrating where the real problem lies. There is no will for peaceful living with Israel on the side of Palestinian leadership in control. There can be no negotiations with one only one side.

Cannot "crush" Hamas

Zion, I only wish Yitzhak Rabin was not assassinated and his deal with the Palestinians would have finally given birth to a Palestinian state. Whatever Arafat did or did not do is irrelevant today. He made plenty of stupid mistakes too. But so have the Israeli leaders like Sharon and the rest.

It is a historical fact that there's no military solution to any conflict where the main issue is self-determination. Kill every Hamas leader and member, destroy all their buildings, put a tight strangle hold on Gaza... what you will get is more anger, more terrorism, more rockets, more misery, and more hatred. The only thing you will not get is peace and common sense.

Dear Zinn

Sorry my friend, but I am afraid I am not allowed to engage your type anymore. I was just given a lesson on the limits and red lines that apply to me here. So no worries. What ever makes you happy haji. Enjoy.

Zion

Zion, what on earth are you babbling about? I have seen a number of your posts in the last few days and I have to ask, "Who on earth are you?" You are obviously not a Jew. You made a complete fool out of yourself in another thread dealing with Obama's anticipated communications with Ahmajinedad by trying to show your Torah knowledge which was an incredibily embarrassing flop. But you persisted even after your ignorance was fully exposed by pretending that you knew what was going on. Does the word pathetic mean anything to you? That is how you looked and you continued to pretend you were in total control. You know nothing about Judaism and the Torah. You are a joke which would be funny if you weren't doing so much damage with your ignorance. You mention two elementary books every time you babble. They are the the Tanach and Talmud. Do you even know that Jewish literature consists of thousands of books? You sound like a goof who took Judaism 101 at a Christian high school and you think you are some kind of Torah scholar. Good grief girl, get off the drugs.

Everyone and his brother seems to be asking you to shut up and go away but you continue to babble nonsensically intermingling dumb confusion with venomous hate. Who on earth is listening to you? From what I can see you have no credibility to anyone especially the Jews. Sheesh, please just go away, forever. Just so you know I am a Jew and I want you to shut up and go away. You are making life really hard for real Jews with your fake Jew crap. By the way, we all know you are not a Jew. So please cut the crap and stop embarrassing real Jews. Please, please please, either shut up or go away.

Mr. Javid,

These "thugs" you speak of, are the elected representatives of ALL of Palestine. Free and fair elections.

You're right about the dignity. Now that they have chosen leaders, all the babbling Western finger waggers and Israeli lecturers no longer push for "democracy." Now they want Palestinians to "reject" their own choice because of what Israel wants. How does that work for "dignity"?

We cannot stop Iranian officials from expressing their solidarity with Palestinians, any more than some Iranians try to silence people on Iranian.com by saying "it's none of our business." It will happen, and they will benefit from it, everytime it occurs. There's nothing anyone can do about it, so long as they are right when they make the criticism.

This event may just buy reelection for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

PS. regarding Barak's offer, the media-manufactured myth of a "generous offer" to Arafat has been exposed countless times. Please read this and don't fall for Zionist Propaganda.
//www.fair.org/index.phppage1113

Jahanshah

I'm sure you know of Barak's offer to Arafat. Which side rejected it, and what does that tell you? I am sure you also know that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and handed it over to Palestinians, as a necessary step towards a two state solution. We all know who took control, don't we? Regarding the moderate Palestinians, wouldn't you say crushing Hamas is a necessary step in allowing the Palestinian moderates to have a chance to be in a position to make any deals in the first place?
the truth is, Palestinians could have had a state of their own ever since 1948 to this very day with full support of Israel.
Given all this, do you still think your analysis here was fair?

No militrary solution

What we are seeing in Gaza is another arrogant attempt by Israel to clean up a mess of its own creation. And it will fail, again and again, as long as it tries to get rid of the Palestinian problem with military might.

The rise of Hamas thugs is due to the fact that Israel has refused to allow the Palestinians to have their own state. Radicals have silenced peaceful voices of reason. Guns, bombs and terrorism have become the only avenue of expression for desperate, destitute, humiliated Palestinians -- especially in the Gaza ghetto.

Palestinians must be allowed to have their own state. There is no other way out of this tragedy. Building and maintaining Jewish settlements on Palestinian lands, walling off Palestinian towns and cities, refusing to talk and make a comprehensive deal with moderate Palestinians, economic blockades against whole populations, and massive military campaigns will only make matters worse.

I doubt if Obama has the will to put any pressure on Israel to come to its senses. It seems only Israelis themselves have to learn the hard way that putting Palestinians down and denying them their dignity and their right to self-determination is not going to bring peace and security. Quite the opposite.

Meanwhile, IRI leaders in Tehran should shut the hell up and deal with their own domestic mess. Their support for Palestinians is nothing but a hollow show. Bunch of bloody thugs and hypocrites... all around and everywhere!

Dear Khodadad, thanks for speaking out

Thanks for speaking your mind. It is times like these that set apart humans from wild beasts of the jungle based on the most fundemental human traits.

You have dared to speak the truth for that you will be attacked and hated. Your motives questioned, your loyalties rediculed, etc. Why? It's always the way.

Some of these Jews you mentioned, have checked their humanities at the door when they chose to become full-time self-serving racist water carriers for warmongers. Your statement about this population is correct. Think about what kind of person you have to become to not see the absurdity of defending carnage like that carried out by Israel with the full approval of America.

Is it any surprise that they fail to see the most elementary paradox regarding your point about repeating the holocaust?

This would be a golden opportunity for America and Israel to

strike at the heart of terrorism, that is the Islamic Republic of Mullahs.

And Akhoonds can not eat any shit as the old saying goes!

Yes that was 2005

It was 2005 that Israel moved out of Gaza and what did Palestinians do? Chose Hamas to rule it an organization that does not even recognize Israel. Very smart and peace seeking move,
eh? What did they expect, peace ?!!

Germans supported Nazi's , Iranians chose IR in 1979 and Palestininas chose Hamas .....and they all paid heavy price for their mistakes... 

The awful genocidal view of the Jewish man that you heard said: "well, we
should just round all of them up and kill them."

is the opposite side of the same genocidal view of Hamas and IR who wants to
throw Israelis in the sea ...

The two extreme genocidal point of views and all those who support the
extremism on both sides.

Electing peace seeking governments by BOTH sides would be a good step towards
peace... A movement by people og both sides toward peace and coexistence.

Those who try to put fire in the woods by being one sided are NOT helping the situation. Both parties must seek peace and accept each others existence or they will NOT be a peace.

I also wish there also were so many caring voices in reponse to human right violations by Islamic Republic. Consistency ?

Stop it

Stop playing with lives of 70 million Iranians by your Arab agenda, stop your war mongering . shame on folks for following mullahs war games . Palestine and Israel are not our bussiness . leave em alone .

and the point of the story is ......

"I am a historian" and I base my opinions on evesdropping what two people say in Starbuck.... grow up and mind your business.

NO!

I just can't accept that because the settlers have always killed the natives everywhere throughout the history, that it can still happen in the 21st century. They're still crying for the Holocaust victims and making movies about WWII for Pete's sake. 

I refuse to believe that humanity has not progressed and I don't believe an honest genocide is better than a cowardly one. Hitler was honest too! wasn't he?

Try listening to KPCC and KPFK and watching Free Speech TV, because CNN, FOX and any other corporate owned media will just take away your hope for the future of humanity.

I loved reading this one! thanks!

IRANdokht

Woodworks

You know, a mere 60 years ago such "stories" and "recollections" would have paid very well. A pity you were born a bit too late to take full advantage of your talents.

'I have wondered ever since about the sort of conscience which is both aware of the terrible crime that was the holocaust and at the same time advocates doing the exact thing to another population.'

Really? You have wondered? Don't you know already that the Jew "kind" as you put it is genetically inclined to exactly that sort of conscience?

Fascinating how at times like this, all the typical nice guy humanists start crawling out of the woodwork. Never ceases to amaze me.