Khodadad Rezakhani

Dear DW

I have a sense we all knew we would be going down this path.  I think you just gave much more good material to Zion to argue with as she would be much better/knowledgable than me regarding this:))))))

I am not trying to be a wise ass here and I sense you are getting surprised/mad at my question.

You State: "Who cares are the orthodox Jews in Israel who have tremendous influence
over the government and who believe 1) that Muslims are not noahides
and therefore are not permitted to immigrate to Israel and 2) if they
are noahides only Jews are allowed to live in Israel until the law of
ger toshav"

And I say to you that this "orthodox view" is not a factor or an issue since there are non Jews who live in Israel like all the Russians who were able to immigrate because they were married to a Jewish spouse or the over 1 Million Arabs who are already citizens regardless of the "noahide" status. There was no "noahide" inspection at the border by the Chief Rabbinate  when these Russians came to of Israel and there is no serious movement by the Religious Zionist Jews to kick out the exisitng non Jewish population because of any one's "noahide" status.

Your twist on it by saying

" The Arabs in Gaza can't immigrate to modern Israel because of the
immigration laws.  Who is permitted to immigrate to Israel under the
immgration laws" ?

is, in my opinion, an artificial issue you are trying to create to force your view of the solution to the Conflict. I am sure you have your view on the ultimate solution and this is how you want to argue it. I am sorry, Israel was created mainly for Jews and not for Arabs. It has created many problems for many innocent people but such is life. Sorry  if it looks like I have no heart. This is how I see the world. if it means fighting and wars to keep it Israel as a Jewish State, so let it be for now as you, the Halacha and the rest of the world can not guarantee the future safety of the Jewish people. Maybe in a few hundred years, when we the people of this planet learn how to live without any borders, wars and killings we can just get rid of the Israeli border of the Jewish State and it will be utopia for all. This is my opinion and I think the opinion of the majority of the Jews in the world.  

Your bringing up of this "noahide" concept is just another example of
why religion and politics should not mix and should have no/minimal
influence on the solutions to the Arab/Israeli conflict.

As to the Halacha issue:

"As far as changes in halacha, are you aware that in 1991 the
Lubavitcher Rebbe was halachically declared to be the long awaited
Jewish Messiah?" 

Let me first share a story with you. When I first came to the US, my parents sent me to Hebrew classes which were given by a  Persian Lubavitcher Rabbi named ZION (Tsiyon). I think he lives in Californian now. He took us to Brooklyn to meet the Rebbe and I personally got a One Dollar bill from his hand. I received my first US post mail from Tzevaot Hashem. I do some times go to the Lubavitch synagouge, all my 3 kids have been through Lubavitch day care. 

Do I believe the Rebbe was the Messiah? NO. This Halacha that made him the Messiah is nonsense and you fully well know that no respected Rabbi (Chasidic or Orthodox) outside the Lubavitch community agrees with this Halacha. 

Again, I am not trying to be a wise ass. The article you gave me about changes to Halacha dealt with Scientific advancement that prove certain halachic rulings wrong (like killing lice on Shabatt being permitted because the Rabbis though that lice were not produced through sexual procreation) . Maybe I asked you the question in a wrong way. Forget science which proves our Rabbis wrong. I am talking about social issues dealing with relations between humans. I am only aware of one change in halacha. There may be a few more but I am sure there are not that many. My point is that Jewish Halacha, especially ones dealing with relations between men and god, is not like the US constitution and can not be amended like you think.

On a lighter note, do you still play music? I play guitar with a rock band and we play out a few times a year in bars here and there.  

Religion the Root

I agree that the issues of language and color will become non-issues as have we have seen in other cultures.  It all comes down, in my opinion to religious conflict which triggers, or serves as an excuse, for the refusal to assimilate. 

I am not sure that a democratic government is even feasible in Israel until the underlying religious and ethnic issues are resolved.  If it were then perhaps and electoral college system designed to prevent one party form outvoting another.  However, to do that the college itself would have to be created based upon discrimination or at minimum some form of affirmative action.

One state Issues

Blacks and whites don't look like each other at all and they seemed to be working it out now ...but
then so did South Africa...

You see I really think the issues of colors and look or even language and
race are really NON-ISSUES and the problem is the "religious extremists" on both
sides and that is the cancer that has to be removed by the peace seeking people
on both sides of the fence before the fence can be removed.

Once the fence comes down, the average Jewish and Palestinians families won't
shoot at each other but the extremists get it started and ignite the fire

Lets now forget that these guys lived and traded with each other more than
1300 years before creation of Israel

As for population issue, the elected officials can be based on percentage of
population but to protect Jews, the % of Jewish reps can nor be less .than 50%
and also no religious based parties and religious authorities can participate in
the elections within the secular state. 

I am just making some examples of how the concerns can be addressed

LOL David

I think last night a few of us were celebrating behind our computers and got far deeper into this discussion than we ever intended.  LOL  I can't believe how long this thread has gotten.

I responded to another poster in another thread who advocates opening the borders to deal with this problem.  I was thinking we might get an interesting discussion of the practical issues in assimilation.

//iranian.com/main/blog/mola-nasredeen/10-similarities-between-israel-and-al-qaeda

I believe that assimilation is possible but sadly I don't think enough people in this generation are willing to accept that.  That is why I believe it probably will not happen until there is a war in Israel.

If we could get passed the governmental issues, then we would be facing the "racism" between Arabs and Jews on a practical level.  I know Jews indigenous to Palestine who tell me that they experienced severe discrimination by European Jews who would not accept them because they looked Arab.  One was actually threated by a man because he took his daughter out on a date.  So there is the practical problem of two peoples who look very different accepting one another.  I think for the most part we have finally overcome that in the US but it really took nearly a half century to get here.  :)     

If we could assimilate these peoples I believe that in 50 years they would all be saying "Wow, I cannot believe how redneck and bigoted people used to be," much like people say in the US today.   

Interesting conversation folks!

I read and skipped some of it and here is what I have to say for whatever is worth:

The conversation is interesting to me from the point of studying the two or three religions that you are discussing but what is even more interesting is how some (not all) of you educated people who use scientific methods to verify validity of everything else then just throw it all out of window when it comes to religion and no I am not talking about faith in God , that is a whole different thing than religion!

As I read , I see few arguing almost opposite sides of the spectrum of the same religion which actually lead to totally different approaches to the same issue!

On the other hand I see another who claims that his messenger message was inclusive of the message of the ones before him and as a matter of fact his messenger has cleaned
the "crap" out of the prior ones or included them and then most of the believers in his religion, especially the Iranian Shia version of it get up in arms when believer in
another messenger , this one Iranian claims that his guy is the next chosen one !
Somehow the claim of the Muslim messenger is to be taken on face value or whatever and almost the same claim of the Baha'i messenger should be discounted based on the science of history!

(By the way soem dramatization was used with above characters)

....It's a long story of humanity and I didn't even go backward to the Ibrahim or Abraham or as some of his buddies and family called him (Eby) and the two sons and the two religions that came from them. I always felt sorry for one of the sons for going through the psychological trauma of seeing his father wanting to cut his throat off , just because his compassionate God wanted to test his blind following or whatever the lesson was, the kid must have had bad dreams thereafter! If this happened today this one messenger, that you all beleive in and is referred in your BOOKS , would have been behind bars (along with his God) for child abuse and If D.W. was forced to take his case, he would have probably tried to get him out off prison and in to mental hospital based on temporary or  illusional insanity. But the Prozac did not exist at that time. 

Anyway By now you might think that I TOO have deviated off the Israeli-Palestinian subject of the blog but actually neither of us really have, we are talking about descendants of Eby killing each other after all! .

In fact , we all are at the very CORE of the issue, that all these GOOD religion(s) claim harmony and peace to ALL mankind etc etc ! and at the same time most have specific instructions on how to FIGHT or even kill the
ones who do not believe in that !!! and that is when I usually go : HUH?!

But at the same time I respect the right of humans to practice and worship WHATEVER they wish (or don't) , as long as they don't try to
physically force that on the guy next door and then without any dodging I answer the question that was raised : YES! They ALL have GOOD words as well as "crap" in them, ALL and that is because so do we  and we are the ones who created them!! 

We created them the minute we could not explain something or the second we looked up in the sky and made some noise that sounded like WOW because we still didn't have even have language  . But then since we saw the  unknown and the sky differently, which is actually the beauty of it ....some of us started fighting over who is right .............or "stone" each other to death............or decided to bulldozer each others homes or wrap a bomb around our belt  ...and some simply are just not so nice to each other here on this blog on internet!

I am not sure what is the best way to get rid of the "crap" with a rock , water or toilet paper, but I can see those living in and around the one of holiest place of the three religions are smelling it and living in it.

and last since you all been having your religious confessions right here on iranian.com and on the brink of the solar Christian calendar that we all seem to practice regardless of all the other stuff we disagree on , I might as well recite my commandment from the virtual minaret of Iranian.com: 

GOD has no religion and neither do I.

Lets please in the coming year remember that no matter what we think or our messenger guy or God, we all are in this together and have to get along if we want ourselves and our children survive this precious thing called Life on this one planet of ours called earth and on this website called Iranian.com

I wish to thank you all for having taught me something of your wise and not so wise words and for taking your precious time to read mine

Peace, Salam, Shalom and all other thousands version of it upon all of us in 2009

No worries I am not going to sing Kumbaya now :-)

D.W. The issue of protecting  jews in case of Arabs outnumbering them in future of a single statehood has an  electorate solution. What other technical problems seem to exist?

I have been thinking may be I start shifting camp on the subject . Two state will continue to have Gaza like issues so why not just live together as they were for thounsands of years before that? As lebanese are trying it and as Americans of different races are and as jews have in Iran?

ps: I know this turned out to be a long one but I had a lot of catching up to do :-)

AI

Who cares are the orthodox Jews in Israel who have tremendous influence over the government and who believe 1) that Muslims are not noahides and therefore are not permitted to immigrate to Israel and 2) if they are noahides only Jews are allowed to live in Israel until the law of ger toshav.  The Arabs in Gaza can't immigrate to modern Israel because of the immigration laws.  Who is permitted to immigrate to Israel under the immgration laws?  Who made those laws.  Who cares?  The people in Gaza who want to return to modern Israel.  Anyone with any competence would realize that these issues are critical to a discussion of the Palestian crisis.  That is the reason US attempts to resolve the problem have failed miserably.

As far as changes in halacha, are you aware that in 1991 the Lubavitcher Rebbe was halachically declared to be the long awaited Jewish Messiah?   He died 5 years later.  I have had discussions with many of the rabbis who were present when the decision was made.  Some deny that they made the decision but very few claim that.  Some say "yes the decision was made but it was in error."  A few of them such as Rabbi Yess say "yes it was made and that it is true because it was halachic and he will return as the messiah."  He once got furious with me for telling him the ruling was in error.  That ruling has more or less disintegrated without ever being changed.   

//www.aishdas.org/toratemet/science.html

Notice the last sentence in this article that talks about Eliyahu arriving to correct halacha.  It is taught that he and moshaich will someday appear and correct all the erroneous rulings. 

Zion, you truly are ignorant, I mean TRULY

I was laughing at the "modern scholarly research" because you are trying to apply science to Religion. Science has probably discredited every religious text on Earth.

Would you like me to find some "modern schoarly" sources that claim Genesis was in fact a lie? Or that Noah could not have possibly gathered all the Animals on Earth?

Did you know the red sea could not have been parted for the escaping Jews?

Please! Don't fall over yourself trying to discredit things you hate with a passion.

I like "I'm not a fan of Islam", yea, that's exactly the level of intensity you have shown toward Islam, that usually used for Baseball teams!

If you don't have a divine view of religion, you can say so, it's allright. Just don't try to dispute a part of faith based on "science".

Truly ignorant.

Whatever Q.

I'll let you enjoy yourself too.

What an absolute cheap shot Zion,

You didn't seem to mind all that about "crap" when I used it for the Bible, but hey, probably for once in your life, you have made an honest and correct statement!

Wouldn't the fact that I have never used that word before or since or that I have never used any disrespectful word toward the Bible be more of an indicator of my core beliefs?

Once again you prove you have no shame.

Dear Anonym7

Thank you for the kind words. We would for sure have voted for the same candidates!

I did find the book finally. Its called Iranian Jewry's Hour of Peril and Heroism: A Study of
Babai Ibn Lutf's Chronicle (1670-1672)(American Academy for Jewish
Research

Here is a synopsis I found about it: 

//www.jstor.org/pss/1454491

DW

I am following the converation here and I understand Zion 100%.

What do you mean by the following and who exactly cares?   

"Halacha is relevant because it is a critical issue in Israel.  It is
the reason Muslim Arabs are not permitted to live in Eretz Yisrael"

Israel has a 15% Arab population who are its citizens. There is an Arab supreme court judge. There are Arab parties. Are you talking about the West Bank?
Even then, who cares? Israel, for now, is still a secular state. 

And this:

'I believe that some of what has been determined to be halacha is incorrect and will some day be corrected.'

Can you name some halachas that were incorrect and have been corrected? 

DW

It is a factual mistake on your part. But fine. Whatever. I have made my case, and you show your lack of arguments by your constant attack on my character. Shows only who you are.
Don't worry, I'll let you enjoy yourself from now on.

Good for you Q.

You didn't seem to mind all that about "crap" when I used it for the Bible, but hey, probably for once in your life, you have made an honest and correct statement! This time you were a good boy Q.

Now what are you talking about? Dodging what? I am not a fan of Islam. Do you get it Q? Sorry if that hurts your soft Muslim feelings, but that's the truth. I am no fan of Islam. Is that a crime now?

'"Modern scholarly research" has "questioned" the premise that Mohammad lived among idolators? Do you know what the holy Kaaba was used for before Islam?'

Yes Q. Just because you are unaware of this, or because your religious sensibilities prevents you from following modern methods of reserch about Islam, does not mean this is not so. Modern scholarly research even puts in question the historical reality of Muhammad the way he is presented in Islamic core traditions. Yep! Modern scholarly studies even question whether most of Koran is in Arabic at all. It also poses the possibility that the Koran itself is in most parts in Syriac instead, and has as its origins in the compilations of Levant Syraic speaking Christian liturgy that was only later retrospectively assigned to some or other Arab warlords of an earlier period, and mixed with Arab pagan traditions. So chill out. No need to get a heart attack for the sake of your Islam here.
Some links for you to enlighten yourself Q:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Read...
//www.lebanonwire.com/0307/03071213DS.asp
//www.aina.org/books/hagarism.pdf
//www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran
//www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.ht...

If your religious sensibilities permit you, that is.

Q

Thanks Q.  I remember that.  I believe it was Rabbi Eckstein's attempt to make Aliyah available to Iranian Jews but very few wanted to go to Israel. 

I really haven't been intending to debate Zion.  I was having a nice discussion with you and AI last night while at the same time trying to enjoy some New Year festivities when she kept jumping in.  It is difficult to not respond to her constant statement of inaccuracies.  But you are right.  In one of the Pink Panther movies Inspector Clouseau got tangled up in a telephone cord under a desk.  That is what it is like talking to Zion.  LOL

Zion

You have not corrected any factual mistake.  You have stated your opinion that prophecy is conditional.  In theory it is if certain events occur.  But in fact, those events will not occur, therefore, in fact it is unconditional.  That is the position of every orthodox Jew and rabbi with whom I have ever discussed it.  That is the reason this is of tremendous concern to so many religious Jews in Israel.  Do you honestly believe that there is not going to be a war in Israel? 

Incidentally, I was not aware that you are a moderator who decides what is and is not relevant to our discussion here.  :) 

DW

If it is an important issue for Orthodox Israelis, then by all means, discuss it with them all you want. What I am saying is, don't throw pages of this or that halachic text at the rest of us while calling us fake Jews with secular rabbis when we correct a factual mistake, or if you do, then when we come back at you with those same texts don't change the subject to your own private opinions on halacha or Rambam or whatever. It is not relevant to our discussion here.
Good day.

DW, let me show you something truly horrifying

and let this be as a second warning from me to you.

The discussion on the racism and Zion's constant accusations reminded me of it. It's here.

The horrifying thing are the dates. And the warning to you is the amount of time you can waste on the intellectual quicksand that is "debating" with ideological partisan warriors like Zion.

//iranian.com/main/blog/daryush/anywhere-...

Zion, are you for real? Can you read at all?

I said your test was stupid. I also said that much of the Bible is repeated in the Koran.

The Koran has the same amount of "crap" as the Bible.

The problem with the word "crap" is that it is disrespectful description of some of the material in question. I would have never used that word on my own, but if I have to use it I would apply it to both of course.

What you are dodging is arguments that prove you are a bigot. You don't want to admit this, yet you don't want to take back those statements against Islam and Muslims either.

You are also dodging basically 90% of everything I point out to you, so I should not be surprised.

modern scholarly research has seriously questioned this premise, but at any case it has not come as an independent religion. It claims to be a new manifestation of an already existing Abrahamic tradition. That's why it has had to clarify its position in regards to the original existing faiths, and that is its position. I told you, go ask your mullahs next time you visit Iran.

You are full of it. This is again some BS excuses to hide the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about and are desperately trying to get out of a hole.

"Modern scholarly research" has "questioned" the premise that Mohammad lived among idolators? Do you know what the holy Kaaba was used for before Islam?

How lame can you get, seriously? Why can't you ever admit that you don't know enough about something and when it is clearly demonstrated to you, that you were wrong?

Zion

You still aren't getting it.  Once again, I think you are pretending not to understand.  Halacha is relevant because it is a critical issue in Israel.  It is the reason Muslim Arabs are not permitted to live in Eretz Yisrael.  Most orthodox Jews believe that the law of ger toshav does not apply until jubilee is declared and jubilee cannot be declared until the arrival of Moshiach.  That is why it is relevant in any discussion of Israel today.  I know you understand this even though you pretend you don't.  Until this issue is addressed there will be no solution to problem.  Not only is this relevant but it is a necessary component of any discussion about Israel.  That is why it is relevant.  Believe me I wish it weren't but it is.

DW

You say:
'I believe that some of what has been determined to be halacha is incorrect and will some day be corrected.'

You are still not getting the point. If you believe this, good for you. However since you are not following the established tradition on this, what you believe is your personal opinion, so in debates you can not consistently keep quoting the parts of the halacha or "the tradition that has been determined to be halacha" when it pleases you, while refuting others that you don't like. If it is your own inquiry that determines your positions, including your positions on what is or is not halacha, then you can not debate by alluding to any halachic authority. You have to provide your own reasons as any normal person does, and only those.

[What concerns some people in Israel was not the issue. The orthodox, conservative, masorty, reform, reconstructionist, chassidic, charidic ... view on end time prophecy is that they are all conditional on teh conduct of Jews and can be avoided based on the conduct of Jews. This is not my position, I am not a practicing Jew, but it is the position of all movements in Judasim.]

Zion

You said,

"If the halacha and the rabbinic tradition is not authoritative, then it is not authoritative period. So stop using any of its sources to defend your position in any such debates. Simple as that."

We simply disagree here.  I believe that some of what has been determined to be halacha is incorrect and will some day be corrected.  This incorrect position on matters of halacha, such as who can live in Eretz Yisrael and when, has caused the religious Zionists to adopt a position of barring Muslim Arabs from modern Israel.  Now regardless of whether it has merit it is a matter of concern to many within modern Israel and it has decided many of the decisions of government. 

As for the comment about prophecy I know many Jews who believe that the prophecy of Zechariah 14 is going to occur in the near future and they are very concerned about it.  It is an issue commonly expressed to me by friends in Israel.  I know people who have even immigrated to the US because they believe it is coming.  You say that is not true.  How on earth do you know what concerns have or have not been expressed to me? 

Completely without regard to anyone's prophecy I believe that Israel is headed for war.   There is no quick resolution to the problem.  The Arabs are never going to be content with their containment and the Israelis are never going to voluntarily let them in.  There is no reasonable solution in sight that anyone is willing to accept. 

Answer the question Q.

What is that am I dodging?!:)
I leave your usual and typical personal attacks alone, since they are a clear sign that you have no rational arguments to give in response to the points I have made. I only say this about Islam, it might have come to Arab idolaters, modern scholarly research has seriously questioned this premise, but at any case it has not come as an independent religion. It claims to be a new manifestation of an already existing Abrahamic tradition. That's why it has had to clarify its position in regards to the original existing faiths, and that is its position. I told you, go ask your mullahs next time you visit Iran.
-----

Now let's get back to the Bible Koran thing. Forget about superiority. I asked you a question. You said you agreed that there is a lot of crap in the Bible. My question is simple. Do you also agree that there is a lot of crap in the Koran or not. Simple. Forget about superior or inferior, better or worse, or whatever. Just answer this simple question.
You say:
'I don't have to admit to "crap" if there isn't any. It's possible one has it, and one doesn't but that still doesn't mean one is better.'

Are we to take this as a "NO". Is it your opinion that the Koran does not have any crap in it? It's a simple yes or no question Q. Why don't you answer it?

DW

Thank you for your lecture on my personality. Next time I wanted any advice from you, I'll sure let you know. I take it you have nothing to response about what I said, so the issue is changed yet again to something else by you, this time it is my character. My dear DW, you are the one who is jumping subjects, and going from an authority on halacha to a Torah observant critic of rabbinic tradition to an ueber-secularist from one post to the other. The issue has always been very clear. You made factually false claims about the role of prophecy in Judaism. It is a fact that no Jewish branch, not even one, considers the end time prophecies of the Tanach as unconditional. You also made factual mistakes regarding the meaning of eretz yisrael the way you were using the terms. I merely pointed these out to you and gave you the reasons why you are mistaken. That is all.

[As for your question about "Zionists" keeping 2.2 million people confined, the answer is no such thing is true. Israel withdrew from Gaza at a great cost and left it to Palestinians. They could have used the opportunity to form the basis of a democratic state then and there. Instead they chose a bunch of thugs who have been attacking Israel. So my dear, Israel is at war. They are not confined by Israel. They have borders with Israel and with Egypt. They are at war with Israel, so Israel is protecting her borders. What happened to their Egyptian brothers? When you have two borders with two different states, how can one state be accused of "confining" you?]

I think I have made my point quite clearly and anyone reading can be the judge of that.
If the halacha and the rabbinic tradition is not authoritative, then it is not authoritative period. So stop using any of its sources to defend your position in any such debates. Simple as that.

Have a good day.

nice dodge Zion, you actually made me laugh out loud

It should go almost without saying that you will dispute things you have said in the past with the lamest of excuses.

I don't care if you're not religious, that's not the point. You have repeatedly and single-mindedly attacked ONE religion and HOLD another as SUPERIOR. You happen to be a Jew. That may be a coincidence, but it's true but you still have the bias against Islam. Of course, that doesn't sound like a truly spiritual person at all, so you didn't have to tell me this. I already guessed it.

Someone may consider Blacks lower than White people AND Asian people. Are you saying that person is not racist? Is this what you need to tell yourself to continue holding such bigoted thoughts?

fascist irreformable nature of the regime

aha! There you have it. Your statement of course is your personal, counter-factual opinion, lower than worthless. Who are you to determine any of these facts about the Iranian government? Should it not be up to Iranians as to what is reformable? But it demonstrates fully why you say it. Let's go one step further, and hear your solution to this issue, you know the one you claim you are against, but somehow work extra hard to present as the only reasonable alternative? The one that involves bloodshed?

Classic propaganda technique. Michael Ledeen is proud indeed. Do me a favor and drop a resume into CIA, if you haven't already. Tel them you're no good an undercover work, but can do comedy or propaganda just fine.

don't pretend you are on the side of Iranian people here OK?

Oh I see. YOU're on the side of the Iranian people, just like tzippi Livni is "on the side of the people" of Gaza. No thanks! Get away from all of us please!

Your knowledge of Islam is probably very deficient.

hahahaha!

its revelation as a necessary divine intervention in the face of Jewish and Christian practices of interpretation and hermeneutics.

Total Bullshit. The Koran was revealed in a society of idolators not Christians or Jews. According to the Koranic theory of revelation, God sends messengers to societies for specific reasons. Most of these messengers are unknown as there had been about 124,000 up to Mohammad. If what you say is even remotely a centeral reason for Koranic revelation, it would have been done in a soceity of devout Jews or Christians. You are a shameless propagandist and a hateful Islamophobe.

Before I even get to it: Your test is stupid.

I don't have to admit to "crap" if there isn't any. It's possible one has it, and one doesn't but that still doesn't mean one is better.

The Koran is not superior to the Bible, but these comparisons are absurd. Koran did come later and does build on the wisdom of the Bible. Many stories from the bible are repeated in the Koran.

However, I hold it against no one if they choose the Bible as their guide versus the Koran. I don't think either is superior, I don't think people who worship either have greater claim to enlightenment, and I don't think either is "much more humanitarian or moral". So that's once again a huge difference between us.

It's not too hard to understand: I value respect and comradery among both religions. You do not by constantly and militantly insisting one is "better".

Zion

You are forever confusing the issues.  You seem to forget what I have been telling you is that these issues are critical to the religious Jews in Israel and these are the issues that must be addressed in dealing with these problems.  But by the standards of orthodox Jews, these issues are relevant.  My religious views are not relevant to that issue.  That was were we were in the thread where these issues were discussed.  What we were discussing was the religious root of the situation in Israel today. You then started claiming to be a brilliant Torah scholar and saying that no one else is.  I simply showed you that you are not.  

Can I make a suggestion to you Zion.  As a number of people said here, it seems that you are not a very credible person in this forum and that you are not liked very well.  You are not ever convincing anyone of anything and you are continuously making enemies.  The reason is clear to me.  You lack the ability to stay on topic in your discussions.  You confuse issues and you try to make everything into a personal argument instead of staying on the issues.  You will never convince anyone of anything and you will alienate everyone unless you can get past this inability.  For that reason people do not see you as having credibility.  You simply argue and argue and argue and you constantly distort and twist what people say and pretend that you don't understand.  Not only is it boring and annoying to have to continuously correct your mistatements and distortions but you take all the enjoyment out of any reasonble discussion.  Those are the earmarks of a person who is very weak in debate and discussion.  Just so you know.  (I am not saying this to hurt you.  I just want you to think about it.  I believe you have a lot to offer if you focused on the issues instead upon trying to win every argument at any cost.)

As for Zionism, my point is this is the same question I put to you in the thread a few days ago that you could never answer.  Orthodox religious Zionists are in violation of their own Torah in a number of respects vis a vis their relationship to Palestinians.  But what possible reason do non-religious zionists have for keeping 2.2 million people confined in an area of land 4 miles wide and 27 miles long in abject poverty except racism?  Now I am not going to get into a discussion with you about whether Jews and Arabs are a different race.  Obviously they are not.  They are semitic peoples.  However, the law of many nations as well as the United Nations recognizes distinguishing physical characterisics for the purpose of allowing claims of racisim and ethnic differentiation.  You apparently did not read the US Supreme court case I cited for you that allowed Jews to sue on grounds of racism under 1982.  My problem with what is happening in Palestine is based upon human rights issues as well as discrimination on the basis of religion, ethnicity and distinguishing physical characteristics which has long been recognized in the law as a basis for a claim of racism in many courts of the world.  

Just so you know, I believe that Israels constitution should be completely secular and have provisions prohibiting discrmination based on race, religion, ethnicity and gender. 

you are exagerating Zion

Zion says: "What I say here about the fascist irreformable nature of the regime in Iran and the failure of its state sponsored facade of fake reforms , has nothing to do with the people of Iran or their capacities."

IRI is oppressive, very corrupt, maybe even non-reformable, but it is not a fascist state by any means. Zion_jAn, you are definitely much smarter than Kashani, don't go with his exaggerations.

War crimes "Israel kills 9 Palesinian children today, 2 years ol

d is the youngest killed by the Israeli war machine. As Israel steps up its attacks on the Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip, one of the most densely populated spots on Earth, children are paying the price.

Israel's strike Thursday on the home of top Hamas leader Nizar Rayan was a typical case.

The bomb flattened the house and killed Rayan — as well as 18 other people, including nine of his children, ages 2 to 19, and all four of his wives. Television footage showed medics clutching the bodies of children dug from the rubble of the house and neighboring buildings. Associated Press is reporting today.

Nice try Q

but don't bother. What I say here about the fascist irreformable nature of the regime in Iran and the failure of its state sponsored facade of fake reforms , has nothing to do with the people of Iran or their capacities. We know you are a fierce supporter of the regime in Iran, the one that executes Iranians and oppresses them, so don't pretend you are on the side of Iranian people here OK? Give an end to the circus.
Now about yo being Muslim, makes no difference. Your knowledge of Islam is probably very deficient. What I described to you is the principal core of Islamic beliefs. Not just Wahabbism, but all Islamic denominations, including your dear Shiite Mullahs in Iran, accept the infallibility of the Koran as the direct word of Allah, and its revelation as a necessary divine intervention in the face of Jewish and Christian practices of interpretation and hermeneutics. Go ask your Mullah about it, next time you visit Iran. :-)

Here comes the funny part:

'I have repeated, I have no problem admitting that my religion is in no way superior to those others, a statement that you could not make by the way, a statement that you could not make by the way.'
I am not religious Q. Get over it. I told you before, I consider the Jewish approach of questioning authority and questions even of God's commands as better than the Islamic submission. I am not practicing any religion to consider my religion superior to yours or whatever. I talked about this aspect of Judaism from an objective view point. I would have said the same thing even if I were not a Jew. I say for instance that Zoroastrianism is a much more humanitarian and moral religion than Islam is. Does that mean I am considering my religion superior to others as well?

OK Q. Now let's test your claim, since you are a believing muslim by your allusion here. I told you a while back that I think there is a lot of crap in the Bible. You wholeheartedly agreed. You told me you know very well there is a lot of crap in the Bible. Fine. Now please show us you do not consider your religion superior.
Would you say the same thing about the Koran? Would you also agree that there are a lot of crap on the Koran as well, or is your Koran somehow superior to the Bible?

DW

I am not the voice of orthodoxy, I am not even Torah observant, so you don't need to talk about the problems of orthodoxy with me. My point is, you do side with the ultra-orthodox against Zionism based on the same rigid view of halacha you are lecturing me about here, so you are essentially picking and choosing based on your own values. You want to call it, making an informed assessment, fine. It is the same, you are being arbitrary about it. The truth of the matter is, nothing is sacred, there is no logical basis to say such things about the rabbinic tradition, yet stick to the Torah as infallible truth. So my point is, next time you want to bash Zionism or call us fake Jews and make up terms like "secular rabbis" to make fun of other people's approchaes, don't throw halacha issues around, tell your real reasons, the ones you came up with by your informed whatever and defend them with ordinary logic, and be prepared to hear the reasons of the other side of the debate without quoting this or that from the Mishna or Mishneh Torah, the Arbaah Turim or the Shulchan Aruch or what have you. OK?

As for Islam, I know Judaism is not an imposing religion, be it on Muslims or what have you. They don't even need to follow your Noachide rules. India is filled with different forms of religion that from a biblical view are idol worship. The Jewish view is the same, has nothing to do with Jews. What are you saying then? Muslims follow the Noachide rules so that is the reason we are cool with them, but Jews must go to India say and start preaching Noachide rules to them?
So my dear, the Jewish approach to muslims was not my question. You are saying that Islam is Godly religion like Judaism, from the same source and so on. I am asking about your high praise of Islam and how that matches with your Torah observance. I didn't ask you why you don't go around bring the "infidels" to Torah's way for you to change the subject like this. So do I understand you correctly, from your point of view Islamic theology and articles of faith are false and even include evil because they do not match God's word which is the Torah, but since they are not Jews you don't mind as long as they don't worship idols and eat limbs removed from a live animal and so on. Is that a fair description of your position vis-a-vis Islam and Muslims?

thanks DW.

DW, I usually don't read the long comments, but I couldn't help it when it came to your comments, specially the last one. I enjoyed reading your comments immensely ...
-best