Secular Democracy for Iran

Democracy needs breathing ground

For its growth and perpetuation! Having said that; after the constitutional movement which in fruition resulted in the establishment of the first people elected assembly in the whole of Middle East over 100 years ago in our country, Iranian society tastes levels of freedom unseen before for the first time. But unfortunately this infant democracy in that period of time in Iran did not have/given a chance to become institutionalized and perpetuate in to the future.  

Iranian society did not have the chance to bond with the ideals of the 1906 movement, as the result these ideals did not get a chance to be incorporated fully in to the fabric of the society and people’s psyche. Shortly there after Reza Shah comes to power and in form he believes in the new constitution (Mashrooteh) and he promotes modernity, but in reality he chokes the spirit and its functions which basically are the freedom of thought, speech, assembly and individual rights... unfortunately in the 100 plus year history of Iran since the Mashrooteh he was not the only one to do so, it was done the same by the rulers and the “intellectuals”. As the result, mass culture of repression (Farhange Estebdadi Ammeh) has prevailed to this day.

"A true measure of a society is in its leaders and intellectuals".  

Benross dear: I'm way over my head here, but again I so often am

Not having read a single book on Democracy (hellooo! don't waste too much time on me), in my book it means:

1. Freedom to choose leadership

2. Freedom to faith, association and to express one's point of view, otherwise #1 is meaningless

3. Freedom to economical activity, competition and gain, because people with no property, are themselves some other schmuck's property!

Now, I am all for transitional periods and leaders who have been able to build a bridge between their people's poor-and-stupid past and a new bright furture. Was Reza Shah one of those? Yes and no. He started as one, but succumbed to the dictatorship mania.

Dear Shazde

The problem with calling for 'democracy' is that it emphasizes on a mechanism, instead of content. And this mechanism will be mishandled by those who are not aware of its content. Modernity, in Reza Shah time, meant building an infrastructure that could produce a level of communication amongst members of a society, remotely resembling the model of communication in a modern society. The same modernity, at this stage, is freedom of expression. This will open up the space for better understanding the content of modernity, and conceive a better suited and functional 'mechanism' as democracy.

Ask any Iranian, are you willing to die for a day that you can vote for a manipulative politician of some sort or are you willing to die for a day that you can express yourself anyway you like. The answer is what I'm talking about. It's not about education anymore. It's about experiencing freedom of expression. People will educate themselves in that process and that space. The concept of 'educating' people at this time and age is utterly 'arbaabi' and outdated.

I think your chicken and egg metaphor revolves around the interaction between the interim governance and this process.

wow, you guys are serious about debating this ...

Dear Redwine and Benross: You have a good point about educating people and I guess by default the role of the educated to get the job done. Your point is well taken that a backward people cannot advance to modernity. However, what our friend Khar is trying to say is that, without respecting a number of basic rules of the game (so called democracy), a society cannot culturally advance to the level of modernity. Hence my chicken-and-egg anology.

Now, I don't know how the first documented democracy (Athens) came to be, but I know that it was a highly cultured society with many writers, poets, scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, inventors, explorers, etc. Again, did it become a democracy because it had such a great people, or from some earlier point of inception (let's say even at a premitive level), it was democratic and could bring about such a flourishing of ideas and talents.

My gut feeling (very scientific eh) is that their society was democratic first, and then became so culturally advanced. I mean they could have been a primitive tribe, but with a strong merit-based and open-minded power sharing system, just like the Romans at their inception. That openness helped them create opportunities for themselves, and utilize possibilities, where other closed minded and enslaved people (slave to kings or religions) could not.

But hey, what do I know?

...

اینجور که حَضَرات المُعظم صحبت میکنند،درد کار را در آموزش مردم برای بالا بردن دید سیاسیِشانْ نمیبینند،پس مشکل فرهنگی‌ نیست !؟ خلق الله روشنفکر و بقیه عُیوب موّجه ؟!

بروم بزم راه بی‌ اندازم که خوبْ تقصیر از ما رَخت کشید.

شب بزرگان خوش که ما را چه به سیاست،به دنبال عیش خود باشیم که دنیا ۲ روز بیش نیست.

اگر به جای

اگر به جای واژهٔ «دموکراسی» از واژهٔ  «تجدد» استفاده کنید، بقیهٔ مسائل حل است. آخر آدمی که هر مخالفی را  مرتد و خائن و مفسد فی‌الارض و مستحق مرگ می‌داند دموکراسی لازم دارد؟! مگر شعار مرگ بر این و مرگ بر آن اختراع رژیم اسلامی بود؟ ما در سرود ملی‌مان می‌گوییم «ای دشمن اگر تو سنگ خاره‌ای من آهنم». جا را هم برای مفهوم «دشمن» خالی گذاشته‌ایم که هرکس به سلیقهٔ خود پر کند!

Dear Khar

Thanks for posting the Moshiri videos, I watched the interview online and it's as informative and eye opener as usual. I agree with Shazde that we need time to learn and use the democracy and hope that we can nail it this time. I however fear that if not handled with 100% care, a dictatorship such as IRI can easily give birth to another dictatorship, as proved by our experience.

Red Wine dear ... culture and progress are like chicken and egg

You are 100% right, but it is hard to say which one comes first.

It is more like a gradual evolution. Many chicks lay many eggs, and hopefully over years and years, the chicks become prettier and the eggs become more delicious.

Sorry, it must be dinner time ;-)

اِی آقا... مردم

اِی آقا... مردم که به فکر این چیز‌ها نیستند، تا بودِه..نان شبْ از دموکراسی مهمتر بوده،همین ۸۰ سال پیش بود که ملّت سر قَحطی نان چه به دولت وَقت کردند ! استقلال و آزادی و غیره اندکی‌ ثَقیل مِزاجند و انگاری به کامِ مردمْ نمیرسد !

اصرار داریم و اصرار می‌کنیم که مشکل ما ایرانیان فرهنگی‌ و تربیتی است، تا زمانیکه اصل فرهنگ ما مشکل دارد و بلد نیستیم به حّق و حقوق همدیگر احترام بگزاریم،دموکراسی هیچ وقت حَکمیت در ایران نخواهد  داشت.

Khar shaans jan: that's right on the money!

" استقلال و ازادی تفکر, بیان و حقوق فرد را خواهان باشیم و به ان بهایی بالاتر از هر چیز دگر بدهیم "

...

مجید جان،نا‌ سلامتی زمان ظل السلطان و آل مبارک ایشان اکثر خلق الله بیسواد و رعیت بودند،تکلیفش به حال چیست که ماشا الله این همه روشنفکر در مملکت ریخته است و انگار نه انگار !!

اشکال ملت ایران فرهنگی‌ و تربیتی است،نه سیاسی !

Khar,

I was not limiting myself to book definitions- dēmokratía "rule of the people" which has rarely prevailed outside of a limited historic context & periods.

Democracy has been and continues to be an ideology, As it was when juxtaposed to Soviet communism. For all practical purposes it has been intertwined with capitalism & extreme capital. America is a democracy for example and we have watched its conduct internally & externally for tens of years. Same with the brits or Indians for that matter. That democracy lacks 'predefined barriers' has made it a lot like religion & holy books. Subject to interpretation and abuse.

Where there is 'democracy', it is typically function of high education & civil society,intrinsic values of a culture, and often closer to 'socialism'.

OKtaby

"... یا که سو سوی چراغی گر پیامی مان نمیاورد..."

 دوست عزیز "دانا خر"، تشکر فراوان از ضمیمه کردن گفتار آقایان بهرام مشیری و محمد ارسی. آدم امیدوار می‌شه که اینجا انسانهای آزاده‌ای بجز حزب‌اللهی‌ها و شاه الهی‌ها هم هست.

تمام مطالبی که نوشته بودی درست است. این فرهنگ استبداد انسانهای نوکر صفت و مزّور و مسخ شده پرورش داده که سالها طول می‌کشد به انسانهای سالم مبدل شوند. هر کدام از ما باید اول از خود شروع کرده بعد به فامیل و اطرافیان کمک کنیم. شدنی است، چون مردم ایران هم استعداد و هم آمادگی پیشرفت را دارند.

Mr. Otaby

Democracy (managed chaos) by nature is too chaotic to be an ideology; it lacks the rigid predefined barriers that make up an ideology.

Democracy is also

an ideology.

We are not willing to sacrifice of ourselves or our children. Don't own up to our mistakes, won't get along, or stop pointing fingers. Those who show up run the show. 

Our history has taken a massive toll and now we may be a day late and a dollar short for an illusive ideology called democracy that has long since passed its prime.

OKtaby

GrandPa (Majid Jaan)

I see the correlation, elusiveness.

............

 
« همیشه تمام تخم مرغ هایمان رو در سبد شاه, خدا, و ایدولوژی گذاشته و تحویل دادیم.»


فکر نمیکنم هیچوقت هم(حد اقل در تاریخ معاصر) یکجا، ظرف هفت هشت دههء متوالی و تقریباً بدون وقفه از سلطهء ظلّ الله یا آیت الله نفس راحتی کشیده باشیم، فقط اگر این درسی برای ما باشد که فراموش نکنیم!

//www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-vi...

به دمکراسی در ایران ربطی ندارد ولی بی شباهت هم نیست!

شازده عزیز

شما درست میگی ما هنوز اندرخم یک کوچه هستیم ,  ولی در هیچ کجای دنیا ملتی را نمی شناسم که ١٥٠ سال برای دموکراسی مبارزه کرده, تو سری خورده ولی باز دوباره اندام راست کرده و باز تو سری بزرگتری خورده و به خواسته هایش نرسیده و در تکرار نشسته...... از شجاعت و تفکر در هیچ زمانی کم نیاورده ایم ولی همیشه تمام تخم مرغ هایمان رو در سبد شاه, خدا, و ایدولوژی گذاشته و تحویل دادیم. امید که دفعه بعدی دنبال سبد نگردیم و استقلال و ازادی تفکر, بیان و حقوق فرد را خواهان باشیم و به ان بهایی بالاتر از هر چیز دگر بدهیم , امیدوارم....

Don't dispare my friends ... it is not too late

From the moment of seeking freedom, to the time of an established democracy, it took 200 years in England. So when freedom comes to Iran, in a year or two, Mashroothe will only be 105 or 106 years old. Just a teenager, in historical years!

شراب جان, نوش جان و به سلامتی شما

چه شد که اینطور شد?
کجا رفت ان ایده های زمان مشروطه ? ازادی بیان, ازادی انتخاب, ازادی تجمع, تجدد خواهی, ازادی اندیشه, ازادی فرد......
جواب این سوال در خود ماست!

انقلاب مشروطیت

هر بار که این کلمه (مشروطه) در خاندان ما شنیده میشود، بَرق از ۴ چوبِ هر قَجَریْ میپَردْ... آخِر چه شد ؟! آن همه کبْکبه و دَبدبه چه شد ؟

حال زندگی‌ ایرانیان چه فرق کرده است با قبل از آمدن مشروطه ؟! اندکی‌ مسخره می‌رسد اما انگاری از آمدن دموکراسی به ایران حالا حالا هیچ خبری نیست چون مردم نمیخواهند و همین جور راحتند.. شکم خودم پُر باشد،بقیه به دَرَک !

دستتان درد نکند و به افتخار تمامِ مشروطه خواهان،ما یواشکی چند جُرعه شراب نوشیدیم.

یا حَقّ.

Mr. ELS, first three institutionalized & perpetuated the latter

and that is the heart of the matter.  

Khar'e Azam, Please allow me to add the 4th factor!

4) Khariyat masses!

٣ عامل اساسی فقر فرهنگی عامه و روشنفکری در ایران بعد از مشروطه

١- استبداد شاهی
٢- ارتجاع مذهبی
٣- ایدولوژی زدگی چپ