Musings of a former chicken

Cost of Progress

And you think by continuing to use the phrase we are f..up, we will glorify ourselves and make things better in a magical sort of way?

Who cares about our flag and its color and who cares if we know what democracy means and whether or not we can precisely define it?

Could it be that we can not get it together and stand as one, because we keep thinking of one another, as one big collective F... up bunch?

Oh.. and sorry to rain on your parade of having the last word. I am sure you will understand.

Did this thread die?

Perhaps. I'll have the last word then. 

Every day, on this site, or elsewhere, it is obvious we, as a nation, are not going to get far because we are Divided! We all think we are correct in our thinking and ideology, have no notion of what democracy means and yet we yell "Democracy for Iran". We can't even agree what our flag should look like.

So....as brilliant as we are inside and outside the country, we're still F**ked......Mothers of Peace or Not!

I applaud

I applaud the post below by Onlyiran! Great job!

that they can relate the Iranian poeple's quest for freedom to EVRYTHING, including the larger Middle East conflict, Lebanon, the famine in Africa, the first man landing on the moon... (LOL!)

This is my favorite slogan:

Na Gazeh, Na Lebnan, Janam fadye Iran. (No to Gaza, No to Lebanon, I only scarifice my life for Iran!)

thank you!!!!

I got to go!

Cost of Progress

Just like you, I don't give a rat's behind if Israel exists or not.  But you know what's actually worse than the IRI?  The roaming band of apologists on this site who are not more than a handful, but are LOUD, and go from thread to thread using mind bending political acrobatics so that they can relate the Iranian poeple's quest for freedom to EVRYTHING, including the larger Middle East conflict, Lebanon, the famine in Africa, the first man landing on the moon...ANYTHING but what it really is: a grassroots effort for freedom...meanwhile, while they're talking about Gaza and Israel, this is what Iranians inside Iran are doing:

//iranian.com/main/2009/oct/students-night-protests

more power to the Iranian people. Na Gazeh, Na Lebnan, Janam fadye Iran.  This is what Iranians inside Iran were chanting, and not some made up chant by out of touch idiological has beens..

PS/ isn't it funny that the same crowd always screams that people in Iran should be left to determine their own destiny and the Iranian disapora should not dictate its ideology to them.  But here they are, when they don't like what the Iranian people say, they're all over the place, making up chants and telling Iranians what they should say and do.  What a bunch of hypocrites!

Setareh

Very well said Setareh jan. Thank you.

Cost-of-progress

Dude what's with all the CAPS and yelling? You really shouldn't start your day that way. You'll get an ulcer.

Now to the point at hand - You know, so far I've given you the benefit of doubt but you are evading and twisting AGAIN which speaks volumes. Did I claim that because it was a link or a website it was FACT? Or is that just your way of justifying your unfounded claims? I asked YOU to please show me facts to the contrary. Perhaps that's too intricate a point to grasp at 5:00am. Or may be it is the standard diversion tactic you employ in every discussion. Or both?

As for Iran/Iranians being somewhat fucked up I would agree if you go by the vatan foroosh representation on this site.  But again, I know that we have brilliant minds both inside and outside Iran so I don't lose much sleep over it. 

bavafa - jaanam fadaye Iran!

Bavafa - Thank you for pointing this out.  Here is the link to the statement of the Workers' Committee for the Defence of People's Votes.   

//www.mano-paltalk.net/pdf4/b7.htm  

I agree with you that support for Palestinians is a humanitarian issue, but in so far as Israel is the illegitimate offspring of colonialism in the region and its supremacist expansionist ambitions a threat not just to Palestinians but to our country, the issue of Israel is very relevant to any Iranian patriot, until of course, it changes course and joins the civilised community of nations. 

جای شعار «مرگ بر دیکتاتور»، اصل دیکتاتوری را هدف قرار دهیم و بگوییم:

«مرگ بردیکتاتوری – مرگ بر استبداد

». 
به جای شعار مرگ برکشورهای دیگر بگوییم:

«بیزاریم از دخالت خارجی –

چه امریکا، چه روسیه

چه از چین».    

به جای شعار «نه غزه، نه لبنان- جانم فدای ایران»، بگوییم: «مرگ بر دیکتاتوری،

تجاوز در هر کجای دنیا

– چه غزه، چه لبنان، چه سرزمین ایران 

Human Nature

Human Nature

Your point is well taken and agreed to in general. However, I find this to be human nature for those that cannot factually or even logically rebut the argument at hand and/or have a particular propagandist agenda. Take for example criticizing an Obama policy to a democrat; the first thing they do is name Bush. And in prior years, criticizing a Bush policy to a republican; first thing they did was name Clinton.

It’s broader than just Iranian and Israel; it’s worldwide ignorance at its best and propaganda at its worst.

AK69 WAS HERE

Holly, its 5 AM your time (If PST)

So, I'll make it quick.

Posting a link to the mothers of peace (I love the title) does not constitite "Facts". The entire website screams IRI......'nuff said.

Oh, and for the nth to the nth time, I don't care if you bad mouth Israel till you're blue in the face. Only that we Iranians MUST learn to stop blaming others for the fucked up way we are for the fucked up way we embrace the invaders and murderes of our ancestors... NO OTHER NATION ON EARTH HAS DONE THAT - ONLY IRANIANS (PERSIANS)... one of the reasons why after 7000+ years of history, we are still an ass backward third world country and, for the past 30 years, a pariah state.

SHAMEFUL.

Israel is a diversion

Bijan, agreed. But the subject here is Israel, it should not be. I find the talk about Israel by Fred very shady.

Think about it. Nobody likes Israel. Iranians like me would rather talk about Iran and what's good for Iranians. Who wants people to always talk about Israel? Only IRI. What's the best way to do it? Just say you are a Israel lover.

Israel is a diversion. Israel also has very low reputation with all Iranians, even Monarchists like me. We all know what happens when Israel becomes the subject of the discussion. Knowing this, Fred defends Israel. Of course it will lead to diversion.

Again, I find it very shady. This post is very shady. Almost like IRI trying to distract us.

Sticking to the subject

I thought the jest of this blog was why every time a debate starts about IRI, somehow Israel is brought into the discussion? Can’t there be a debate or discussion about what happens in Iran without a mention of Israel? We all have agreed that Iranian dilemma is an internal matter and international community should keep away. Why then Israel's atrocities are brought up? What has that got to do with what is happening in Iran?

Fred is absolutely right in his blog. I don’t care if Fred is a Muslim cleric or the founder of AIPAC. He is correct in observing that many who support a democratic Iran, get extremely defensive and tend to sound pro-IRI the instant an even a vague statement or a hint is made about the reality of Israel's existence. They quickly water down the threat of “wiping off the map” as rhetoric by a mad man but the response to that threat is no longer rhetoric.

 No one here is debating the actions of Israelis. That could be the subject of a different blog. And only god knows how many of those blogs we have seen on this site. If you are pissed off or despise Fred’s position with regards to existence of Israel or how he sees Israeli-and post-IRI Iranian relation save your comments and post it in a different blog or write your own blog. For now, please stick to what is the jest of this blog.

What's wrong with being a

What's wrong with being a pro Israeli Iranian, or a pro Palestinian Iranian, or pro American Iranian, pro Russia, china, France...?

As long as the interest of Iran in our discussions comes first, people are entitled to their opinion.

Israel being singled out as a 'forbidden land' is fundamentally reactionary. Some people don't have the guts to support IRI anymore, they lash out their reactionary thoughts against Israel (not its policy, but its existence).

But that's OK. Keep slandering Israel. What do I care. But don't even think that we didn't see it!

"I've not condemned tobacco companies, neither have you ..." LOL

Tobacco companies, like many other subjects, have NOT been issues for discussion on this website.  Iran and Israel have!  Are you suggesting that you have views on Israel's atrocities and persecution of Palestinians and its continuous threat of genocide against Iran and its machinations against the region, that you are not expressing on this website because they have not been relevant to the issues under discussion?!  You are funny Fred!

Saving enslaved Iranians Fred?

Fred, for people such as yourself, Bijan AM, Nikbakht, ..., getting even is the deriving force, not saving the enslaved Iranians. Although for me the deriving force to dislike/hate IRI is no longer similar to yours, I understand where you are coming from....keep lying to yourself.

The reluctant reader III

The reluctant reader had said:

“just your steadfast resolve to defend Israeli crimes and taking sides with them against Iran and Iranians. “

And when challenged to back it up with proof says:

“I have reviewed your position within this forum and never saw a denouncement of the murderous policies of the Zionist in the occupied land or the warmongering attitude they have towards other nations. But I did often noticed you trying to deflect the attention from the Israelis crime by pointing to IRI where as the article had nothing to do with IRI.”

So I take it you wish for your charge against me to be taken at face value, sorry as tempting an offer as it is, can’t do, unless you back up your claim you are nothing but another dime a dozen habitual fibber.

 This threadbare mostly Islamist demagogic tactic of since you have not condemned this that means you are in agreement with it, dose not wash. I’ve not condemned tobacco companies, neither have you, does that mean I or you are in agreement with that cancer stick product of theirs?  

Added for the grandpa Islamist,

Grandpa Islamist you are slipping in your old age, are you drinking your Ensure? Go  take your Islamist wedding photos and enjoy what is left. Not even your usual Islamist demagoguery can beautify your Islamist Rapist republic and your Rapist Islamist brethrens.

it's just YOU Fred, don't be so deceitful

Fred,

Nice try. IRI "Haters" are a dime a dozen on this website. Many very outspoken ones are vocal on regular basis: Samsam, Anonymous111, Darius Kadivar, Babak Khorramdin, the list goes on and on.

But there are very few Israel firsters and Israel apologists such as yourself, do not pretend you are part of the legitimate anti-IRI grievance, be it Green or not Green. You are not.

This is why people like You, and Zion before you and a couple of others stick out like a sore thumb and attract the kind of negative attention that you deserve.

You are a self-admitted AIPAC supporter. At a time when AIPAC does not EVEN represent the views of the majority of the American Jews, you want us to believe it "has the best interest of Iranians in mind" (your words)!!! How stupid do you think we are?

You apriori consider Israel and its rulers correct and flawless in whatever lies, demonizations and abuse of history they engage in, and you apriori consider Iranians to be deserving of all the risks and threats they receive from corrupt warmongers, itching to make more money on bombs, in Israel and West alike. You have the audacity to shamelessly and methodically promote AIPAC's policies. You publically cheer for genocidal sanctions and air strikes against Iran and you wonder why you are not given "mahaleh sag" by Iranians?

Nice try.

I may respond to

I may respond to challenges when challenged by a creditable and open minded people… you are not it.

I have reviewed your position within this forum and never saw a denouncement of the murderous policies of the Zionist in the occupied land or the warmongering attitude they have towards other nations. But I did often noticed you trying to deflect the attention from the Israelis crime by pointing to IRI where as the article had nothing to do with IRI.

Mehrdad

P.S. This is the most I ever wanted to pay attention to your writing, till you become more balanced and fair minded in your contribution.

Cost-of-Progress

Well if you are sincere (and I have no reason to think you're not) when you say " my main focus is my ancient birthplace in the hands of a bunch of unelected murderous goons." then I'd say we are probably just considering different means to the same end. And frankly, my objection to the people who support Israel lies first and foremost in the fact that Israel is no friend of Iran. Never was, never will be.

The other point we disagree on is that you don't give a rat's ass, as you said, about innocent non-Iranians being subjected to inhumane practices. I do. And I believe that the coming change you refer to is far deeper than you are giving it credit for.

Regime propaganda?? I asked if you had any facts. It's ok if you don't. I'll stick to my opinion and you stick to yours and that should be fine because supposedly we both believe in democracy.

and lastly, and for the n'th time, why is it that opposing Israel is necessarily equal to supporting IRI? When did opposing BOTH  become mutually exclusive? In my opinion ignoring / supporting Israel just because you oppose the IRI is cutting your nose off inspite of your face.  That seems to be the affliction of some; others however are in support of israel to push their own agendas which includes absolutely nothing good for Iran.

The reluctant reader II

When you say:

“Now, if you care to enlighten us about your commitment in defending Israel? I don't want to speak for others but I don't have any issues with your hostility towards IRI, we all do, just your steadfast resolve to defend Israeli crimes and taking sides with them against Iran and Iranians. “

You better put up in the form of corroborative direct quotes from me or take your own advice and “hold your peace”

And as to:

“I [meaning you] don't not need to prove it to you or any body else if I cry as loudly about other atrocities/crimes around the world.”

Of course you don’t but on the other hand you should not make the claims that you make but once you do and are challenged on it you should prove it or “hold your peace”

Same goes for the other points that you were challenged on and now don’t see fit to respond.

And should you take your own advice, then you'll have the time to study the map of the area that fascinates and captures your attention and do not make such an elementary misstatement about its borders.

Lastly who is this plural pronoun “us” that you want to be enlightened, you better think about your own enlightenment first and then worry about others, charity begins at home.   

holly

Regime propoganda - obvious. Their slogan? Makes it more obvious.

The ruling clergy are smart, but change is coming...............

Oh, I don't get the part where you talk out both sides of your mouth.

I am not defending Israel (cause I frankly do not give a rat's behind one way or the other) my main focus is my ancient birthplace in the hands of a bunch of unelected murderous goons.

Fred jan,

For an objective observer does not need exactly a "science" to see the extend of the atrocities in the Occupied land, though there are ample reports by UN and other human rights advocates that show the extend of it if one really is interested to find out. It can not get any more recent then the last war in Gaza and the extend of crimes that took place there.

In regards to you other [sarcastic] remarks/question, I don't not need to prove it to you or any body else if I cry as loudly about other atrocities/crimes around the world. If I don't than that would be a shameful thing on my part but I suggest you hold your peace till you know more about me.

Now, if you care to enlighten us about your commitment in defending Israel? I don't want to speak for others but I don't have any issues with your hostility towards IRI, we all do, just your steadfast resolve to defend Israeli crimes and taking sides with them against Iran and Iranians.

Mehrdad

P.S. Just FYI, I don't have any room left on my rear bumper to speak out against the war crimes around the world, from Africa, Europe or ME.

Face it, Israelis are just better than you

Deal with it.  Israelis are far more superior to you in all respects.

That is why the can do whatever they want and you and IRI can't do crap.  More power to them.

Hala hey beshinid khod khori konin. 

Disclaimer: Above only applies to IRI supporters and people who attribute all ills of the world from their hemorrhoids to Tsunamis to earthquakes to the HIV to Israel.

Cost-of-Progress

Two questions if I may:

1) Are you sure we are talking about the same Mothers for Peace? Do you KNOW what you are saying is FACT? If so, please share the facts. I'd sincerely love to know if I am mistaken. This is the one I'm talking about BTW:  //www.motherspeace.com/

2) Which part of "WE DO NOT SUPPORT IRI" don't you get exactly? 

By the way

The blinking star talks about the Israeli Threats?

Were you typing with a straight face? Who's been the one to stir up shit in the region with inflamatory comments about wiping this and that off the face of the earth?

Are you people that arrogant or is it pure ignorance?

NO - I am not an Israeli agent . I just love Iran and want her to prosper unlike the IRI brainwashed apologists who support a 7th centry arse backward acapolyptic mentality.

The best way to fight IRI

The best way to fight IRI is by speaking up against their human rights violations. IRI and Israel both have lousy records as human rights violators. One is oppressing its own population and the other is attacking its neighbors and attempting genocide.

It'd be against my principles to side with either one against the other. I oppose them both along with all other criminal governments of the world.

As it's been said many times by so many and repeated here too, despite what some are trying to convery, opposing one does not equate the supporting of the other. na oon khoobeh na ishoon...

IRANdokht

Vultures??

They have been feasting on my motherland for 30 years now, so please.

Did you guys feel the same about the Balkans and the ethnic cleansing there? Where you as outspoken as you are now? I don't think so.

The "mothers of peace" you speak of did not lose any of their offsprings in the streets to the Islamic thugs. They are not waiting to see if their sons or daughters are freed from the fascist IRI prisons. Know why? 'Cause they know they are busy working in the prisons, on motor bikes with their hand guns and sticks and in the streets with their riot gear...............

None of you IRI apologists put Iran first - you can't.

vaghean khejalat ham khoob chiziyeh....

Setareh & BaVafa

I'm with you both. The Mothers for Peace group say it best in their slogan: Ham Ghazeh, Ham Lobnan, Janam fadayeh Iran.

If one is humane, they will get it, and if one is here just to try to pull the wool over the eyes of others using the IRI to promote / protect zionist interests, well they can try until they are blue in the face. Like someone said in another post, they are sadly mistaken if they think the best and brightest of Iran have left that land. The big challenge for the Fred's of the world is yet to come. Pardon my language but I feel I have to dumb it down for their benefit: Bigger farts than Israel have ultimately failed in trying to subdue a pissed off Iran. They too ,can join the ranks. 

And to Cost-of-Progress: We DO put Iran first. We just don't see the need to do it at the cost of ignoring other atrocities the perpetrators of which are the very same vultures waiting to feast on iran.

Cost of Progress

I do not agree with what Fred advocates in terms of sanctions, etc.  However, when it comes to the Palestine issue, I agree with you.  I actually have bloged on this matter a couple of times.  The IRI’s involvement in the conflict does absolutely NOTHING for the Palestinians.  In fact, it has made the situation much harder for them, and has given Israel the excuse it needed to commit more crimes against the Palestinian population, and also the excuse it needed to derail peace negotiations and expand its settlements in the occupies territories. 

Don’t be fooled by this whole façade of “we love the Palestinians” nonsense.  Those who you see cheer IRI’s approach to, and the involvement in, the Israeli  Palestinian conflict are either: 1) closeted IRI supporters who relish IRI’s expansionism in the region (because it satisfies their “oghdeh” of having an empire in the region), or 2) are totally misinformed and ignorant about the reality of the situation in the region, and are approaching the issue with emotions instead of logic.  

The reluctant reader

The reluctant reader says:

“Human rights is not sacred and important just for Iranians, but for all in the world and we need to defend it no matter where. Now the fact that some write more about Israeli brutality, is partly because they are just so much more fascist.”

And a bit further says:

“they [Israelis]  left Gaza but made a big Ghetto out of it by surrounding it and controlling all aspect of their lives. How would you feel, if some one surround you house, cut water and power off and not let any thing go in or out.”

1- As a novice to the science of fascism scale and what constitutes “much more fascist”, would the reluctant reader mind to expand on this science?

2-would the barbaric Russian treatment of mostly Moslem Chechens in which Grozny was razed to the ground by systematic close range tank fire constitute more or less of fascistic treatment on the fascist scale?

3- Where does the Chinese brutal suppression of Moslem Uyghurs or occupation and suppression of Tibet and Tibetan culture fall into the fascist scale?

4-Would the reluctant reader who is obviously familiar with the fascism scale mind classifying the above examples. And since he declares “Human rights is not sacred and important just for Iranians, but for all in the world and we need to defend it no matter where” would he mind showing reference to when and where the sample  atrocities mentioned above have gotten his attention and condemnation(s)? 

5- Why  the Islamist Rapist Republic raping and murdering Iranian men, women and children with impunity for thirty years does not get the “much more fascist” grade by an Iranian with intimate knowledge of fascism scale?

Lastly, the reluctant reader should have consulted a map before making a patently false statement as to encirclement of Gaza; the Egyptians don’t take kindly to redrawing of their border.

Again...

I have always thought that Israeli policies in that area will not - cannot - yield any fruitful results. I have also believed that Western policies in the region are exacerbating  an already dier situation. However, since decades of violence and bloodshed have not produced any meaningful results, one would have to come  to the conclusion that negotiations for some kind of a peaceful endpoint is the logical means to an end here! Negotiations AND compromise - BUT - Peace is an alien concept to Islam - always has been.

AGAIN - we need to fix our house first and if there are any bricks left, worry about others'.

Besides, I think it should be rich Arab states such as the Wahabi's in Saudi and the UAE shieks, the Kuwaitis, etc... to bail the Pals out - Why is it a national Iranian (government) obsession?  Of course, there are many reasons none of which is humaniterian....