www.facebook.com/iransecularii

Leaders make movements

but movements also make leaders.

The most important thing right now is to keep a momentum going. A GROUNDSWELL. A GRASSROOTS movement. This thing is bigger than Moussavi and people know it. People must feel like they are DOING something together, ANYTHING. Be it boycotts, demonstrations (ORGANIZED for non-violent passive resistance), strikes (my favorite is just everyone calling in sick, no people, no cars, eerie silence in the streets,speaks volumes..) So many things They are possible now in unprecedented ways due to fluid lateral structure of c-space.. There is a groundswell. It must leaven, like bread. It will in due course.

No one will get all they want any time soon but--to have clerics urging for election of the Supreme leader, a candidate recommending optional hijab, clerics calling Khamenei and AN "MONGOLS"..this is SOMETHING.

Another thing, being that iranian.com is part of c-space and has huge outreach (both to Iranians and non-Iranians) people have to get over the idea that they are somehow watching a movie called IRAN. Everyone here is PART of the movement. Finally the expat community has the opportunity to be what you have wanted to be for thirty years: relevant.

Even just staying in close contact with friends and relatives in Iran by e-mail to push and encourage them to partiicipate in the actions, and give them support, is YOU YOURSELF participating.

Just keep giving the movement momentum. A leader will emerge. Far better still: leaderS.

_____________________

Oh snail climb Mount Fuji

But slowly slowly*

--Zen proverb

(*if necessary)

______________________

Or an American version:

patience my sweet jackass, patience.

_______________

This is the historical moment that must SOMEHOW be seized. If not now, all is lost for a looong time to come.

Keep the momentum moving and keep the faith.

Nice David

Good stuff like always, but the movement is dead without a leader inside Iran it-self. If Moussavi declares the Islamic Republic a corpse, he will become one, and Im afraid the people will not stand up when he marches to the gallows.

Rosie,

Farah Rusta is no lady, she's a man baby!

Rusta = Parkhash, (Parviz) look it up.

David!

Thanks for your analysis and all the responses to the commentators which helped me to have a better understanding. In hope of freedom for Iran & Iranians soon with the power of Iranians.

Payandeh Iran & Iranians

Down with IRI 

Thursday July 9 Iran Time

Keep an eye. Your help on this side is needed.

leaders asked to show up at "Ferdowsi" Square :

//asemandailynews.com/?p=2417

Karoubi: We'll continue the combat although the future may be tough  

BUZZ: Some security forces heads unwilling to face people. More foreign forces are brought in. State of Emergency may be announced. Khamenei's- just in case- comment: ""Even Imam Ali,for the sake of unity & peace of people made concessions & even forgoing his rights" 

FR/ Look folks this is a very important thread and I won't

derail or poison it but I will address this "issue" just one more time here and hope none of this harmed the continuity of the thread. Please excuse me.

The issue is you, Farah.

____________________________

Look Farah, I remember the terrible things you said to David on his own thread when he announced he had to leave to work on the Delara case because he'd just found out her date of execution was set for four days later. I remember how I told you it was a terrible thing to say and you wouldn't admit  it or retract.

I remember how right after Moussavi 'lost' the election, you went to Jahanshah's thread where he'd predicted Moussavi would win and you jeered at him. I remember how I told you we all were feeling terrible and you came back with your sarcasm at me. That was when I asked you the $64 question: are you aware you have a touch of the sadist in you and if so, do you think this is an attractive quality in a person? Suddenly you who answer (or retort to) everything were silent.

And I've had to endure watching you with David since then. You fillibuster. You engage him (and no doubt others) in endless conversations in which you have absolutely no intention of arriving at any true understanding. You do it to for fun. To exhaust and distract.

I am working in an I'net cafe paying by minute while my computer is in the shop so I didn't have time last night or this morning to read the comments on this thread carefully. Today in the library I will and I'll answer them. But I didn't have to even look at yours. All I needed was to see the beginning of David's reply saying basically you don't understand because  you don't want to understand. Of course you don't. That's not your intention with David ever. It's just to have a good fight. Just up to your old tricks. Now I scan the new post and well...what a surprise. The Florence Nightengale of Hell.

Maybe David can forgive what you said to him that day enough to even bother debating with you but I can't. And I don't have to. Maybe Jahanshah can forget what you said  but I can't. And I don't have to. And it wasn't just j. either. You displayed contempt for every single person who supported Moussavi which btw was majority onsite. No compassion. No decency. Just contempt.

You are sadistic and you are the worst kind of sadist because you prefer to prey upon the strong when they are wounded. It's because you know that's when you can do the most damage.

I couldn't care less who ignores you or who doesn't. My advice was  to David (and to anyone else who has seen you in action. Don't bother. It's not worth it. Especially not NOW. There are REALLY important things to do.

Of course others will test the waters. Sooner or later, most of them will notice they are filled with lye.

Okay so I'll spell it out just once for the benefit of anyone who's wondering. It was David's thread encouraging people to vote. On and on you went railing at him for having the audacity to have changed from an abstentionist to someone who (once just once) recommended TRYING OUT voting.....and then when he said he had to go and help SCE because of Delara's sentencing you called him a phoney for working on Delara's case while advocating voting. And wouldn't retract no matter what.

How despicable. I've said it before to someone here and I'll say it now to you. I don't CARE what your position is now because you are the type of person who regardless of your stance, sooner or later you will poison whatever cause you advocate for.

You're dangerous. You are the self-appointed basiji of words. Bang bang goes the mouth.

Until you learn two words :I'm sorry.

Oh and btw I did NOT spend time and MONEY paying by minute to write to you. I did it for the sake of others so they would understand my intention was not to undermine a VERY important thread . I realized they might not. To them, I apologize. To you:

ET: Thought your Farsi is better than your English!

Obviously not! The blog to which you and a few others keep referring (//iranian.com/main/blog/farah-rusta-3 ) was simply asking a question and inviting opinion. It was not encouraging armed struggle. At least ask someone to translate it for you. Besides, the right to defend oneself against an armed oppressor is a natural human right, so why is it so surprising when one surveys the public's opinion on this issue? Unless, you think that Moussavi is the reincarnation of Gandhi and Khamenei is the British Viceroy!!

One last thing before I am summarily ignored!! In your so-called Principals (I assume you mean Principles) for the unity of Iran you missed the most important principles of all: Transparency - something you badly need to adhere to. Now you may ignore me (LOL)

FR

New Hezb?

This news about Mossavis "hezb" sound like docking the people who are now following him now as Sabz Movement.

Suggestion: make the Hezb After you got rid of the akhounds" otherwise the Hezb will become another "hezboallah". We don't need it.

Also he must drop this nonsense about being khate emam and Islamic revolution becuase- This Islamic Regime is terrorist, ergo their revolution is based on terrorism.

Either Mr. Mossavi is with the people who are seeking democracy and freedom or he is with them, the terrorists.That is the bottom line.

comments from Iran about the news of Mouavi's new party

حزب چيزي حل نمي كنه، اينا چيزي به نام حزب قبول ندارند. فقط حرف خودشون=دروغ،ريا، عوام فريبي، كشتار آزادي
بهتره مجوز چيزي كه حقمونه رو بگيرن= راهپيمايي مسالمت آميز

chra hezb??!!! aghaie mousavi khodesh alan bozorgtarin hezbe momkene ro dar jeloie roosh dare,,faghat yekam rahbari kam hast ke ...........

همین الان مشارکت و مجاهدین انقلاب اسلامی مگر حزب نیستند؟
آقای موسوی به شما اجازه فعالیت نخواهند داد، با حزب یا بدون جزب

 البته اگه با همین قانون اقای موسوی میتونن کاندید بشن چون تازه میشن هم سن اقای کروبی ولی مگه میشه با قانون مردم باز رای بدن یا کسی بیاد کاندید بشه؟ با این قاون دیگه کسی رای نمیده و احتمال 90 درصد با اقای مصباح دیگه تو ایران رای گیری نداریم جمهوری اسلامی تبدیل میشه به حکومت اسلامی

حالا فرض که حزب هم تاسیس کردید.تو این مملکت که الفبای دموکراسی هم رعایت نمیشه می خواهید چه کنید؟

تشکیل حزب یعنی شکست، یعنی عقب نشینی، یعنی سزنوشت اعتماد ملی، یعنی حبس و زندان رئیس جمهور موسوی

تاسيس حزب يعني شكست موسوي...........موسوي جان تو براي ايران بزرگتر از آني كه خود را در حد حزب كوچك كني...موسوي جان چه بخواهي و چه نخواهي عمر اين حكومت به زودي به پايان خواهد رسيد

رئیس جمهور موسوی فرمان بده

هم ما با دیدن و خبر گرفتن از موسوی انرژی میگیریم، هم موسوی با دیدن ما توی خیابون ها و کارای دیگه که مو کنیم. اون که جا نزده، ما هم نباید کوتاه بیایم. 18 تیر میریم برای تظاهرات، مراقب همه چی باشین فقط. اگه کوتاه بیایم مطمئن باشین که همشون رو می کشن. چون اونا انقد مرد هستن که برنخواهند گشت.

مگه کروبی 4 سال پیش همین کار رو نکرد 
حزب تو ایران فقط برای شوی دموکراسیه 
حزب برای کشور با حاکمیت قانونه
برای حاکمیت قانون از خیابان باید حرف زد

الان وقت این حرفا نیست. تمرکز باید روی حرکتهای مردم باشه.باید مبارزات رو هم آهنگ تر کرد. ما خودمون حزب مردم هستیم که دولت فعلی هم قبولمون نداره. راه حل اعتصاب سراسری و نافرمانی مدنی در اسرع زمان ممکن.

حزبی که کل افرادی که به رییس جمهور موسوی رای دادند و تمام ایرانیان خارج از ایران که حدودا باید بالای 25 میلیون جمعیت داشته باشه عالیه کار اینها رو تو دنیا خراب می کنه

همه با هم به این موج سبز خواهیم پیوست و ایران عزیز را دوباره خواهیم ساخت. زنده باد موسوی

احزاب مهر تاییدی بر جمهوری اسلامی هستن

man ba inkar movafegh nistam, ma nabayad kam biyarim, Moosavi BAYAD reis jomhor beshe

در این نظام تشکیل حزب بی فایده است

Man in ide ro dorost mibinam, chon dar jomhooriye eslami ye hezb tashkildadan ham ye moo az kherskandan ast.dar drazmodat mitoone Moussavi be korsiye ghodrat beshineh,age in hezb ozvhaye ziyadi peyda koneh.
Hamaye ma bayad Geduld jani sabr dashte bashim va mosbat fekr konim.

Mardome iran bayad ye hezbe zede jomhuriye eslami tashkil dan. Rahbareshoonam bayad kharej az Iran bashe ke in kesafata natoonan dastgiresh konan. Ma alan javab mikhaim na chahar sale dige!

این اقدام قبلا توسط مهدی کروبی انجام شده بود ولی نتیجه ای ندا

MARG BAR JOMHURIYE ESLAMI! INA BAYAD HAMASHOON BERAN!

in kar akharesh mesle sarneveshte Karoubi mishe
moshkel, az jaye dige hast

hezbe 30 millioni..hemayatat mikonim president mousavie aziz

حزب ايده ي خوبيه ، چرا كه يك سري اهداف مشخص رو دنبال مي كنه ، اما اگه مخالفتها پراكنده باشه ، چون هدفهاي متعددي رو شامل مي شه ، ممكنه رسيدن به اونها مشكل بشه يا در برخي موارد اين اهداف با هم متناقض باشن ، در ضمن از وجود يك حزب مي شه به عنوان يك مركز و پايگاه استفاده كرد ، به نظر من ايده ي خوبيه ولي كافي نيست

اگه موسوی بخواهد بیراهه برود یک موسوی دیگر برمیگزینیم. من موسوی، تو موسوی، ما موسوی

از الان حمایت خودم رو اعلام میکنم

اگه هر نوع حزب یا تشکل یا ان جی اویی به نام موسوی تاسیس بشه، به یک بازی دو سر باخت برای حکومت تبدیل میشه. فکر کنید موسوی نه یک حزب سیاسی، بلکه یه ان جی او مثلا واسه حفاظت از نام خلیج فارس یا محافظت از لک لک ها هم تاسیس کنه، با این محبوبیتی که داره ، فوری 20 میلیون میان عضو میشن و عملا بازشماری آرا انجام میشه. اگر هم جلوش رو بگیرن که خودشون ضایع میشن

جای حزب باید تشکل غیر دولتی تشکیل داد

زنده باد موسوي

همه مردم ايران عضوي از اين حرب خواهند شد.

به اميد پيروزي

خب كه چي؟ مگه كروبي اينكارو نكرد؟ 5ام شد

اگر در چهارچوب این نظام ممکن بود کروبی بعد از چهار سال کار حزبی وضعش این نبود.راه تکراری چرا؟ تا چه حد خوشبینی؟

میخواید توی خونه بشینید تا این دیوانه ۴ ساله دیگه اینطور پرروی کنه؟

در حال حاضر تمام ایرانیان چه در خارج و چه در داخل ،عضو حزب سبز هستند نیازی به تشکیل حزب جدید نیست
"آقای رئیس جمهور(موسوی) ما از 24 خرداد حزبمان را در کنار شما تشکیل دادیم تنها کافیست آنرا رهبری کنید"

Dear David

Thank you for your time and your elaborate response. I completely agree with every one of your points regarding unity and inclusiveness and most importantly your qualifier

 “….as long as the forces have certain common goals”

 And to me those common goals are none other than what you so eloquently have listed under “principles of unity”. I fully recognize that majority of Iranians are devout Muslims whose religion is an integral part of their being. I fully respect that and don’t see that as an obstacle to achieve a secular republic. It is when these religious, but patriot citizens develop the understanding and appreciation for the importance of “separation of religion and state”, that our nation is ready to force IRI out. I believe the so called “reformists” DO NOT share this common goal to qualify as being a member of this movement.

Your link to the letter from Iran is extremely encouraging (hopefully it is a representative sample of the participants in the movement). It is definitely worthy of wide spread publication.

Respectfully

Bijan

Dear Bijan

You have brought up many excellent points and definitely worth discussions now and in future which actually require more than a short commentary but as incomplete as it might be I will address it somewhat:

1- No force or group is an island of its own and has 100% support ....and the oppositions should form collations with some common goals mostly based on human and civil rights in order to achieve and reach its goals in part or in whole: all at the same time or one step at a time.

2- We must remain inclusive and not exclusive of one another as long as the forces have certain common goals .

3- The fact remains that Iran is a Shia country and the religious based doctrines will always be a part of the landscape and instead of attacking anything that has a religious inclination it is best to empower those who have more moderate and progressive ideals and oppose those who are against them.

4- As progressive as a force can be and as much support as it may have, it should remain aware of the organizational, tactical and the limitations of the time and also not to stay too far ahead of itself and the public or will alienate itself from the realities.

5- We must not underestimate the awareness of the people after 30 years of living under a religious dictatorship and give them credit for such awareness and in fact the recent events and how quickly the slogans and actions of "THE VOTERS" turned against the whole regime is a proof of that. I strongly believe that although people were settling with religious moderates but that was not their ultimate goal either, I did send a letter from Iran to editor of iranian.com to be published as an article and if it doesn't I will post it as blog by tomorrow which will exactly clarify what I think the voices from Iran are saying. You can also find it here: //peyvast.blog.com/5190971/

6- As wonderful as it may sound we can not reach from point A or G to Z in one step. The situation of 1978 was totally different where it was all against Shah's dictatorship where in 2009 it is majority vs. the minority and we should be wary of the minority and remain democratic or we can alienate ourselves even from the majority. Ahmadinejad stole the votes but he did come second and of course if he and the regime did not have all the media, funds and guardian council, he would not even have been had much of vote considering that only 4 candidates were hand picked.

7- We have one nation and we should be inclusive of all forces who struggle against dictatorship within a democratic system and that is not something to practice the day after but everyday including now

8- Note that without participating in election we would not have been where we are which I believe is much ahead of where we were. If nothing else three things were accomplished:

       a- Taboo of Khamenei, Rhabar was broken

       b- The true nature of the regime even to its more moderate supporters was shown

       c- The compromise aspect of Islamic moderate leaders were also shown that they they are not willing to stand for people rights by doing what it takes

 d- Most importantly the People united and again gained self confidence in their power instead of the sit and wait of the past. Now they know if they organize they can make an ultimate difference and now most importantly they believe in themselves and one another which is the VERY FIRST point that I made in Nov 2008 for reaching the ultimate goal:

Such goals are not reached in theory and with blogs and press conferences but in action, participation of people and in the streets!

People believed in themselves and united and now first  hand EXPERIENCED that they also need organization which is what I am proposing . Burning trash cans does not get rid of a regime that is armed to its teeth and is willing to use. But we are on our way:

Nov 2008:

//iranian.com/main/blog/david-et/solutions-iran-road-map-unity-days

SOLUTIONS FOR IRAN

Preliminary draft in progress

 PART 1. PRINCIPALS OF UNITY OF ALL IRANIANS

• Territorial integrity
• Independence
• Separation of Religion and State
• Freedom of Expression
• Gender Equality
• Human Rights

I hope this summary explains my views

Mr. ET

Thank you for all your recent posts. I salute you for your dedication to the cause and appreciate how exhausting it can be to manage so many posts. While I find myself in full agreement with your ultimate goal and final objective, there are times that I struggle with comprehending your approach.

Would I be wrong to assume that you consider the reform movement as a vehicle to express opposition to the Islamist regime? If you declare Mousavi, Karroubi, Khatami,or …. As the leaders of opposition movement, wouldn’t that by inference imply legitimacy of a different form of “Islamic” republic? You have clearly stated many times and I sincerely believe that you strive for a secular republic. Do you see the contradiction? Do you believe a “reformist” Islamic government will help the movement towards a secular republic? I respectfully disagree. I believe it will pacify the movement and slows the process of educating the masses. The true opposition will have a much better chance of growing faster and stronger, underground.

I don’t believe the movement is ready for an armed confrontation (not because they don’t have arms) because they are not well organized and still don’t have the support of masses for the right reason and most importantly they are leaderless (at least for now).

Let’s stop the false hope of peaceful transformation from Islamic republic to secular republic. We all know that is not possible. For the movement to succeed it has to be patient and build a well organized, well educated and far reaching networks inside Iran to very effectively conduct its armed struggle with or without outside support (preferably without).

Regards,

Bijan

Thanks David

For clarification. My concern is that if Mousavi is arrested or killed the resistance movment runs the risk of becoming disorganised. Creating a party ( which will become an underground movement is it is outlawed) will provide some degree of orchestration of resistance till this nefarious regimes back is truly broken.

Khaleh Mosheh

You wrote: "Formation of a party will ensure the movement will not become leaderless if he is arrested. Good move to ensure continuity."

Lets not forget that Mousavi has not been arrested since election and still has left the movement leaderless! In fact movement has been leading him 

One day he announce he is willing to become a martyr or arrested and in action Instead asked people to come out while sitting in and negotiating with Guardian Council. 

What Iranians needed was a Ghandi. Luther king type who would stand in front of march (all of them from Mousavi to Khatami to Karoubi....all of them in the front marching from one side of city to another). Either all would have been arrested or attacked (highly unlikely) or people and them would have been successful and no blood would have been shed.

They didnt even once attempt that ! At least Karoubi came out and marched few steps with people day and night

They didnt even jointly attempt at a national strike 

His attempt to organize for his goal of Islamic republic versus Islamic Goverment may be good for him but like I said people have surpassed him and the progressive forces will and shall remain with the people  and organize on their own while not abanodning other democratic calls and staying alongside in struggles for basic rights

Plus if the sytem did not allow Mouavi's idea take place now , will not allow that within a party later either.

rosie

Great points you made about civil disobedience.... to not being distracted. 

In a post immediately after the elections Fara Rusta

on Jahanshah's thread which had predicted Mousavi the winner, I found Fara Rusta to be rather 'biting' toward Jahanshah and the rest of us who had supported him on that thread. I said so. Fara responded to me with further 'biting' words.

I asked Fara if she was aware that she had sadistic traits in her personality and if so, did she find these to be attractive traits in an a person.

She did not respond to me and until such time as she does, I feel she should be told once, only once. that for time being she will be summarily ignored.

That imho is the best way to avoid dissipating energies at this crucial time.

Rusta: At least read first!

No time to laugh or cry,

dp both or neither but stop wasting time.

David, you are on target. Mousavi has served as a catalyst to expose the brazen illegimacy of the Regime as it stands. Khaleh is also on target. He has beem tje capablle of fomenting an unprecedented grassroots groundswell--which at the same time faces an intansigent opposition within the high echelons of power willing and able to use any means to stop it, unprecedented in recent history.

If you wanna laugh, laugh. If you wanna cry, cry. Or do both. Or neither. But the imperative now is to keep momentum of resistance going. THE POPULAR GROUNDSWELL. So that it has a modicum of organization and keeps momentum from within. The moment is now and everyone knows it.

This groundswell must be non-violent and 'passive.' Passive can be VERY active.There is no point in organizing demonstrations with no leadership trained to have a hierarchy schooled in keeping them non-violent--more deaths will be abolutely pointless. They will accomplish nothing-at this point even anger will probably turn into despair, or worse, unorganized violence with death upon death that accomplishes nothing.

All efforts should turn toward the popular groundswell to organize a general strike. In my view, this general strike at this point should not involve demonstrations for the reasons stated above. A much more effective strategy would be for people to call in sick and stay home.

Owners of businesses should keep the businesses open and just say, well, we're open but all our employees are sick, to avoid persecution. Goods should be stocked a couple of days in advance so everyone has food, medicine, the necessities. Then stay home. Just stay home. Imagine" an eerie silence and empiness on the streets of the major cities for two days.

It sends a very strong message. You can clamp down as hard as you want but somehow some way we will find a way to trick you. We know we won't win tomorrow or next month or even next year but we will find a way. You are illegitmate, you are toxic, and sooner or later we will prevail I firmly believe that at this point the strongest possible message in a strike  is silence.

Be that as it may and whether people believe it or not,. a general strike right now is the only realistically doable action. (along with possible boycotts). That is where the energy should be focused. Stop bickering about red herrings such as issues of moderation, of whether you think Reza Pahlavi is stupid, what Moussavi did twenty years ago, whether you like the British or not and so forth. Who cares? Almost all  factions can agree on a general strike. Debate later about the specifics of what your personal Utopia should look like.

Iranian.com and other expat avenues have the advantage in pushing such a movement because they have the advantage of not being able to be imprisoned.

The following item was up at the top of the homepage for a couple of days til today. In my view vast focus should have been given to addressing the concerns of the posters on this thread, scertaining the extent and viability of this particular action, if viable push it with all possible contacts within Iran, if not viable organize toward orchestrating one that is.

18 Tir

At this point in time I do not believe there is enough organization for a demonstration whicfh will not end violently, not enough training, not enough lateral and hierchical organization to control the crowd. The focus should be on a 'silent' strike for two days or so and on creating that organizational apparatus for large demos in near future.

Anyone here so enamoured of I's lovely last election should be told, well a general strike is the hallmark of a democracy and then be ignored. Anyone who tries to abuse you for specific individual beliefs or appears to relish the necessity and advent of a blood bash should be equally summarily and succinctly addressed ONCE and then ignored.

 I used to say in another lifetime when I was Rosie T.: Shut the f. up and start talking.

Now I have a different idea: Shut the f. up and start DOING..

Pardon my French.

As Anon Fish would say:

Peace out.

r.

David ET,: Your Catalyst is now a catastrophe!

I am trying to stay as polite as I can be but while this is a game for you there are people who are and have lost their lives on the streets of Iran - thanks God not because of you but because of their confused, desparate and unpricipled stance that is the same as yours.

You have been switching your words and stance like no other in the last couple of months. Now, shamlessly you are admitting that Mousavi is the same as the rest of them and regard Bani Sadr as a democtraticly elected and toppled president !!! But thanks God you are safe. No stray bullet or a sniper bullet can hit you when you are walking on the street. 

FR

Mousavi

has done a good job given the limitaions imposed on him. Formation of a party will ensure the movement will not become leaderless if he is arrested. Good move to ensure continuity.